F*CK Paypal - My first rant, but with a constructive suggestion! So humor me. Please.

[eBAUMANN]

Ive had generally good experiences with paypal up until this point. Mostly because I have had the pleasure of dealing with very reasonable buyers and sellers.

Well, recently, I got a real wanker of a buyer on my hands that turned into my very first paypal claim...

Read on for full story or skip to the end for the moral:

-----

I sold him a set of new take-off wheels, I never said skewers were included, and he never asked. He said he wanted to return the wheels because of this. Yes, seriously. I told him I was not willing to accept the return based on something that I never sold (skewers). He threatened to file a claim with paypal, so I offered to send him a set of zipp skewers, free. He agree.

5 minutes later he says he changed his mind and wants to send the wheels back, this time because the decals are not as easy to remove as he thought. In the listing I had said that I was "95% sure" that the decals could be removed, because I had seen another set of the same wheels without decals.

At this point, I told him that paypal only protects buyers who receive an item that DOESNT match the seller's description. I never said "yes the decals are removable" or "skewers are included" at any point in the ad or in our communication prior to shipping.

Well that didn't sit well with him. He filed a claim.

I provided more than enough evidence to prove my side of this whole debacle and still, after 10 days of doing who the hell knows what, Paypal rules in his favor.

Its completely absurd to me.

-----

So, I know that its kinda like the default way of doing things around here, but would any of you guys (I'm talking mainly to the active/longtime members here) consider changing our own personal default to something OTHER than paypal?

I don't even care what, I just cant stand Paypal anymore, this pushed me over the edge.

I have been using www.cash.me/ericbaumann to receive payments lately and it works quite well, depositing directly into your bank account so no need to withdraw and wait to get your money where you need it.

The fee for standard payments is less than paypal and they still have a friend/family style payment for people you know well enough to use that with.

Just an idea.

In closing, F*CK Paypal.

Thank you.

[R3awak3n]

See, the reason people use PayPal is exactly the reason you hate PayPal, because it protects the buyer. Now I am not saying you were wrong, because you weren't but there are tons of scumbag sellers out there and I want to be protected against them. Unless the service you recommend or other services protect me I am not interested.

The problem here is not just PayPal, it's the guy you sold too, f*ck that person.

[Joachim]

Use Venmo. Works great.

[Cicli]

If the guy returns whe wheels with the decals half torn off file a claim. The wheels need to be returned in the same condition you sold them in.

Fire with fire.
You may not win it but it will be a pain in the guys ass.

[eBAUMANN]

Use Venmo. Works great.

Im fine with that, do other people like venmo?

Lets use venmo!

I really don't care I'm just sick of giving paypal money when they clearly don't evaluate cases in a fair and un-biased manner.

And just for the record, the buyer was not a paceline member.
You guys are all, at the very least, reasonable people.
:beer:

[R3awak3n]

Use Venmo. Works great.

I was gonna say this. Venmo is owned by PayPal though and it's used to send money to friends. Seems like cash.me is the same thing which is just like using PayPal send money to friends and family which the forum recommends agains, for good reason.

[sandyrs]

If the guy returns whe wheels with the decals half torn off file a claim. The wheels need to be returned in the same condition you sold them in.

Fire with fire.
You may not win it but it will be a pain in the guys ass.

*like*

[Joachim]

Im fine with that, do other people like venmo?

Lets use venmo!

I really don't care I'm just sick of giving paypal money when they clearly don't evaluate cases in a fair and un-biased manner.

And just for the record, the buyer was not a paceline member.
You guys are all, at the very least, reasonable people.
:beer:

I have both venmo and cash me. We still end up not having that buyers protection but I have decided that I'm only buying from now on from people I feel I can trust. I rather let a good deal slide on the forum. So far it has worked great for me :).

[R3awak3n]

Im fine with that, do other people like venmo?

Lets use venmo!

I really don't care I'm just sick of giving paypal money when they clearly don't evaluate cases in a fair and un-biased manner.

And just for the record, the buyer was not a paceline member.
You guys are all, at the very least, reasonable people.
:beer:

Venmo is owned by PayPal, you can't do more than 2k dollars a month and there is no protection, it's just like PayPal family and friends

[eBAUMANN]

I was gonna say this. Venmo is owned by PayPal though and it's used to send money to friends. Seems like cash.me is the same thing which is just like using PayPal send money to friends and family which the forum recommends agains, for good reason.

cash.me has a fee structure and can be used for business-style transactions, i use it to receive payments from the real estate offices I take photos for, amongst other things.

there is a friends/fam option but the default takes a fee just like paypal would. its just run my Square, not paypal, so I like it.

again, i still think when dealing with unknown members it is probably still a good idea to operate within paypal's protective blanket but for dealing with people you know either in person or from past dealings, why not do you both a favor and use a service that is fee-free instead of putting more money into paypal pocket?

[Joachim]

cash.me has a fee structure and can be used for business-style transactions, i use it to receive payments from the real estate offices I take photos for, amongst other things.

there is a friends/fam option but the default takes a fee just like paypal would. its just run my Square, not paypal, so I like it.

again, i still think when dealing with unknown members it is probably still a good idea to operate within paypal's protective blanket but for dealing with people you know either in person or from past dealings, why not do you both a favor and use a service that is fee-free instead of putting more money into paypal pocket?

I like this.

[R3awak3n]

cash.me has a fee structure and can be used for business-style transactions, i use it to receive payments from the real estate offices I take photos for, amongst other things.

there is a friends/fam option but the default takes a fee just like paypal would. its just run my Square, not paypal, so I like it.

again, i still think when dealing with unknown members it is probably still a good idea to operate within paypal's protective blanket but for dealing with people you know either in person or from past dealings, why not do you both a favor and use a service that is fee-free instead of putting more money into paypal pocket?

I agree with you 100%, when I know the person or trust the person I send paypal friends and fam (paypal gets nothing) or venmo but if I don't I won't. Most online buying I do, I have no clue who the person on the otherside is and that is why I opt to choose paypal.

I understand where you coming from and I am not trying to be difficult but I have been on the other side of things and paypal has treated me well. I really hope that they looked at cases a little better instead of 90% siding with the buyer, I really highly doubt they looked at the case much because in this situation you are clearly in the right.

[purpurite]

I have had good luck with Square, Cash and Dwolla. There are a lot of PayPal competitors. Like any business, if you treat the customer poorly and take the market landscape for granted, a better mousetrap will inevitably clean your clock.

eBay is on the same path as PayPal.

[Joachim]

Ah yes, dwolla. That's he other one I have but haven't used it yet.

[Vinci]

OP, I had a similar experience with PayPal some years back, but reversed. I purchased a car wheel from some guy on a BMW forum. It was advertised as "like new" or "excellent condition", but arrived in horrible/unusable shape (not from shipping).

I brought this up with the seller and was told up front to f*ck off and that he didn't care. I gathered up all the conversations, photos, and all. Submitted it all to PayPal in a claim with an even-worded and unemotional description of the issue. As soon as I hit "submit", PayPal responded automatically that it rejected my claim and that I would not be refunded, compensated, or otherwise even communicated with further about the issue.

PayPal is the absolute worst. The only reason I use it at all now is because people on this forum have been trustworthy in my experience. An alternative is very welcome in my opinion.

[hokoman]

I have been screwed by PayPal multiple times... That's why I rarely sell stuff online.. Prefer craigslist with cash. Although there are lowballers and flakes, etc. no wonder why I have so many random things... Sorry about your situation. Hope you get your wheels back - don't ask. Sounds like the buyer just had buyer's remorse and wanted to screw you.

[kittytrail]

i don't like Paypal. that said i use it because, as others said, it offers a buyer's protection level unmatched by any other means of payment. problem is when you're a seller, there's no protection against bad/dishonest buyers. lost two dishonest claims out of three as a seller(third one was before the "buyer is always right" policy so got sorted logically) but got the upper hand in all eleven problems with sellers, including one in the Netherlands that never shipped anything *thrice* and one, in France, who shipped a loose crankset in a taped plastic garbage bag without any padding whatsoever. :butt:

TL;DR: Paypal for buying = good. Paypal for sellin' = not so good. :no:

[dustyrider]

It sounds like you are more upset at the buyer than PayPal. Do you not get the wheels back or something? I do miss details in these threads...

[mgm777]

I am going against the grain here, why not just accept the returned wheels and sell them again, to another buyer? I agree, it appears the buyer changed his mind, last minute. Why waste time on a situation that is only going to make you angry. Also, on a separate, but related topic, I just don't get why some people(not OP) on this forum feel that PayPal, and other similar services, should be free. They're not. Use their service, take advantage of their technology, pay the fee. If you don't want to pay their fees, simply don't use their service. Rant over.

[velotrack]

I'm OK with using Venmo as nowadays more often times than not the only people I'm dealing with I've seen around.

[buddybikes]

For future consideration - state what is NOT included, some people assume you can attach wheels to bike when buying. Only stating this for future sellers, fully explain what is and isn't included. To the point of selling a chain, whethere zero, 1 or 2 pins included

[dzxc]

That sucks to have to deal with that, but to be fair you kind of did something similar to me, but possibly a little more egregious since you didn't use the "95% sure" weasel words. You sold me a frame after I asked several questions about compatibility for a project I was working on. In the end, I (and I just checked my PM history to verify this) asked you about compatibility point blank. I said, "hey, so I just need parts X, Y, and Z to make this work with what I'm doing, right?" You said, "Yep, that would be it." (exact quote)

After getting the frame, I found out that was not correct. I had to spend time sourcing the actual parts I needed and spending extra money and hassle buying/selling things to make it work.

I messaged you as an FYI, not asking for or expecting anything from you whatsoever, except a maybe "my bad about the miscommunication." The response I got was basically (and I checked this again just now to make sure I wasn't misremembering): "sorry you misunderstood" (I didn't...) and "compatibility issues" are essentially my problem. i.e. you blamed me when I asked you flatly about the compatibility before purchase.

In the end, not a huge deal as I'm all about the "buyer beware" unless something is clearly not up to the advertised condition/spec (i.e. damaged/incorrectly advertised), but I can see how someone might feel miffed enough at this kind of thing to file a claim. Not saying the guy filing the claim in this case was in the right, but if you treat everyone that way, someone is bound to get irate.

I recommend just taking Paypal gift for everything, or just using Venmo.

[Satellite]

Attention all Paceline members, when performing buying and selling transactions please send all monies and products to me, I will act as a PayPal type of broker and the distributor with no fees, as you know sometimes things and cash get lost in the mail. :no:

[tuscanyswe]

I recently bought a new fork. It was the wrong spec unfortunately, but honest misstake. It also didn't come with the expander that it normally comes with when new. This wasn't specified and i think it should have been included unless noted.

Regardless seller was nice and i will be happy with the fork in the end.

But we are all comparing prices on goods for sale vs new prices (esp on new goods) but if the products aren't apples to apples it should be noted by the seller imo or a fair price comparison can't be made by the buyer.

That said in this case it seems like the buyer was just looking for a reason to get out of the deal which is kinda lame.

Im all for a new payment system that is free of charge for dealing with ppl i trust.
Especially since i can't send gift payments to you all even if i wanted to anyway with paypal since they have some kind of national boarder restriction with the friends payment. Me and Eric allrdy learned that just a few weeks ago with the nice wheels eventually ending up on someone else's bike :/

[Ken Robb]

I try to avoid terms that suggest changes that can/maybe be made like "95% sure". I kind of understand how a buyer of a set of wheels especially new ones that come with skewers could expect to get them with the wheels. As an aside, I'm surprised how many used wheel sales do not include the skewers they came with when new. Where do all the skewers go? They should still be fine long after the rims wear out. Why would I need more skewers than I have wheels? :confused:

[velotrack]

I try to avoid terms that suggest changes that can/maybe be made like "95% sure". I kind of understand how a buyer of a set of wheels especially new ones that come with skewers could expect to get them with the wheels. As an aside, I'm surprised how many used wheel sales do not include the skewers they came with when new. Where do all the skewers go? They should still be fine long after the rims wear out. Why would I need more skewers than I have wheels? :confused:

Some hubs like the ever so common Chris Kings never come with skewers because they weren't sold with them. Granted, many hubs do, as do many complete wheels, but I would say that a large amount of wheels sold the owners actually need to keep those skewers.

[eddief]

I'd want to have this pissed off discussion with a real human being. I have been blown away with the phone customer service from Amazon. Does paypal do any of that?

[jimcav]

I'd want to have this pissed off discussion with a real human being. I have been blown away with the phone customer service from Amazon. Does paypal do any of that?

i recently got restricted from eBay for 30 days for trying to sell game ready wraps. i bought a nearly complete set for my dad after his stroke as he was prone to falling/banging himself up (i was very impressed with my game ready experience after hip surgery). He passed away after only using the ankle and elbow, so i had a bunch of new wraps to help my mom sell. the unit is a prescription device, but the wraps that attach to it can be bought at amazon etc. anyway, they restricted me and i called, talked to an idiot, who forward it to "Appeal", got an email saying, you are right, but we still decide to call it prohibited and you are still restricted (there was more to my complaint--including the many other similar items which is how i listed mine--by going to completed items and clicking the"sell one like this") Can't even revise my other listings. they also make these decisions by email, after their working hours, so you never get to talk to anyone

[OtayBW]

As an aside, I'm surprised how many used wheel sales do not include the skewers they came with when new. Where do all the skewers go? They should still be fine long after the rims wear out. Why would I need more skewers than I have wheels? :confused:Yes - I think the expectation by the buyer is often enough that skewers are included - at least often enough so that it would probably have been worthwhile specifying as the seller that they are not. Take that whole problem right out of the equation....

[eBAUMANN]

That sucks to have to deal with that, but to be fair you kind of did something similar to me, but possibly a little more egregious since you didn't use the "95% sure" weasel words. You sold me a frame after I asked several questions about compatibility for a project I was working on. In the end, I (and I just checked my PM history to verify this) asked you about compatibility point blank. I said, "hey, so I just need parts X, Y, and Z to make this work with what I'm doing, right?" You said, "Yep, that would be it." (exact quote)

After getting the frame, I found out that was not correct. I had to spend time sourcing the actual parts I needed and spending extra money and hassle buying/selling things to make it work.

I messaged you as an FYI, not asking for or expecting anything from you whatsoever, except a maybe "my bad about the miscommunication." The response I got was basically (and I checked this again just now to make sure I wasn't misremembering): "sorry you misunderstood" (I didn't...) and "compatibility issues" are essentially my problem. i.e. you blamed me when I asked you flatly about the compatibility before purchase.

In the end, not a huge deal as I'm all about the "buyer beware" unless something is clearly not up to the advertised condition/spec (i.e. damaged/incorrectly advertised), but I can see how someone might feel miffed enough at this kind of thing to file a claim. Not saying the guy filing the claim in this case was in the right, but if you treat everyone that way, someone is bound to get irate.

I recommend just taking Paypal gift for everything, or just using Venmo.

Really? You are still hung up on this?

The questions you had (and the answers I provided) were easily verifiable via your own research.

You wanted to know if you could turn a (vertical dropout) road frame with a PF30 bb and crankset installed into a single speed using only the parts that were included. Technically, you could, you would just be limited in your gearing selection and chain length. Beyond that, I would have never told you that was an ideal or complete solution had I understood what you were asking, because clearly that drivetrain would lack any means of tensioning the chain.

The answer to that question is so obvious that the only way I would have told you otherwise was if I was confused about what you were asking, which I guess I was.

My intent was never to deceive anyone, and I did provide a lot of other useful resources and information, not to mention an incredible price for what you got...but of course all that is overlooked because you had to sell a crankset and buy another one. The horror.

If its too much trouble for you to research your own projects before hand, then just don't buy anything from me, simple. Im not a bike shop, i don't have a customer service department or a "head mechanic" to check with. I have the same resources at my disposal as anyone else and I really don't have time to hold everyone's hand through their project, as much as I try sometimes.

Sorry if you still feel slighted, I thought I gave you a good enough deal on the entire thing that you'd be able to put this behind us but apparently not.

[eBAUMANN]

Yes - I think the expectation by the buyer is often enough that skewers are included - at least often enough so that it would probably have been worthwhile specifying as the seller that they are not. Take that whole problem right out of the equation....

I usually do specify, I just forgot this particular time, and to be honest wasn't sure what came with them as I was selling for a friend who had not yet delivered them to me.

As it turned out, he had a rear skewer for them but not the front. Go figure.
I sent the rear along as what I thought was a bonus and that kicked off the whole sh*tstorm.

Most nice wheels are custom, most custom wheels use high end hubs, most high end hubs do not come with skewers (shimano and campy aside). I assume there are no skewers included with any custom build.

Most stock wheels come with sh*t skewers, and so they tend to get passed along with those stock wheels. Unless they are mavic skewers, in which case they are worded by "those who know."

Bottom line - THEY ARE SKEWERS.
Its not something worth making or breaking a sale over IMO.

[R3awak3n]

well it doesn't even matter, you offered him some skewers and probably much better skewers than the wheels had originally come with.

That dude just got cold feet and used paypal loophole to get his money back. F that guy.

[eBAUMANN]

well it doesn't even matter, you offered him some skewers and probably much better skewers than the wheels had originally come with.

That dude just got cold feet and used paypal loophole to get his money back. F that guy.

Pretty much.

My biggest source of rage though isn't necessarily at him though, as there are plenty of fickle morons in the world, its more directed at paypal for supporting the childish demands of a fickle moron.

im gonna call and give them a piece of my mind tomorrow/tuesday, if only just to make them realize to stupidity of their own system.

[R3awak3n]

Pretty much.

My biggest source of rage though isn't necessarily at him though, as there are plenty of fickle morons in the world, its more directed at paypal for supporting the childish demands of a fickle moron.

im gonna call and give them a piece of my mind tomorrow/tuesday, if only just to make them realize to stupidity of their own system.

I think thats a good idea. They are usually better on the phone though, at least I have had positive experiences on the phone.

[Joachim]

That sucks to have to deal with that, but to be fair you kind of did something similar to me, but possibly a little more egregious since you didn't use the "95% sure" weasel words. You sold me a frame after I asked several questions about compatibility for a project I was working on. In the end, I (and I just checked my PM history to verify this) asked you about compatibility point blank. I said, "hey, so I just need parts X, Y, and Z to make this work with what I'm doing, right?" You said, "Yep, that would be it." (exact quote)

After getting the frame, I found out that was not correct. I had to spend time sourcing the actual parts I needed and spending extra money and hassle buying/selling things to make it work.

I messaged you as an FYI, not asking for or expecting anything from you whatsoever, except a maybe "my bad about the miscommunication." The response I got was basically (and I checked this again just now to make sure I wasn't misremembering): "sorry you misunderstood" (I didn't...) and "compatibility issues" are essentially my problem. i.e. you blamed me when I asked you flatly about the compatibility before purchase.

In the end, not a huge deal as I'm all about the "buyer beware" unless something is clearly not up to the advertised condition/spec (i.e. damaged/incorrectly advertised), but I can see how someone might feel miffed enough at this kind of thing to file a claim. Not saying the guy filing the claim in this case was in the right, but if you treat everyone that way, someone is bound to get irate.

I recommend just taking Paypal gift for everything, or just using Venmo.

There is a buyer feedback thread if you feel strongly about this. This is not the place IMO.

[m_sasso]

Recently Paypal sent Canadian users a new policy update, as of April 13, 2016 all cross border sales will now be hit with a 3.7% payment fee, a 0.8% transaction fee and a 30 cent fixed fee per transaction.

Are these companies not making enough money?

I don't sell much on here, an occasional spare part that may not have fit on a build however I will no longer be accepting Paypal payments. I can't do much about there greed except keep them out of my wallet.

I have used Google Wallet, Square and in Canada we have a service between most banks called an E-transfer that allows for the transfer of electronic cash between account holders.

What are peoples views on Google Wallet, my experience has been positive?

[thegunner]

i'm biased, but i like google wallet, it's basically paypal but allows for purchases of up to $10k and it links directly to a card / bank (i don't think it even charges the credit card fee). although there's no recourse, so i'd only use it with those that i trust :)

[paredown]

Recently Paypal sent Canadian users a new policy update, as of April 13, 2016 all cross border sales will now be hit with a 3.7% payment fee, a 0.8% transaction fee and a 30 cent fixed fee per transaction.

Are these companies not making enough money?

I don't sell much on here, an occasional spare part that may not have fit on a build however I will no longer be accepting Paypal payments. I can't do much about there greed except keep them out of my wallet.

I have used Google Wallet, Square and in Canada we have a service between most banks called an E-transfer that allows for the transfer of electronic cash between account holders.

What are peoples views on Google Wallet, my experience has been positive?
This reminds me of the answer I got from a trucking company when I asked about why they charged extra for tailgate unloading at residential addresses: "Because we can".

I miss the easy version of direct transfer from your personal bank account we had in Europe--made eBay a lot easier. You'll still see the occasional Euro seller marking up their price to cover accepting Paypal, although technically in violation of the eBay user agreement.

US banks though are not likely to implement a internet-based direct transfer program--they're making too much money on the float while they claim transaction time.

[pbarry]

Both ebay and paypal weigh heavily for the buyer in any conflict. Keeps sellers accountable for full disclosure but has the effect of letting folks with buyer's remorse get away with BS, like the OP has to deal with.

OTOH, I used PP to pay for a $600 order from Merlin last fall. Shipped from the NL, the package made it to U.S. Customs, where it still is apparently. Multiple emails to customer service were met with "Here's the tracking number. Your package should arrive shortly".

After two months of this I opened a case with PP, knowing it would probably go in my favor, but I hoped Merlin might get on the ball and put a tracer on the package, (I still wanted the merchandise). They did not, and only gave the tracking number to PP.. PayPal escalated it into a claim after a week with no movement on the retailer's part, and credited me after two weeks. Glad I paid with PP instead of a credit card as this would have taken longer to reach a conclusion.

[Britishbane]

Man, this is the worst. I once sold a phono cartridge without the mounting hardware. My photos didn't have it, I didn't mention it. Dude filed a claim and won. Thankfully he was happy when I took the stuff off my only working TT and sent it his way.

[pavel]

you can use Dwolla or better yet, square. Instant.

[unterhausen]

visa and mastercard now have this scam where you have to sign up for some sort of password to use your card online. If someone steals your password and makes a purchase, you can't reverse the charges without resorting to lawsuits. I was actually asked to set up an account online, with information that would make stealing my identity fairly easy. Not gonna happen. Maybe paypal will be the best option.

[velomonkey]

Dwolla is a PITA to setup - regardless of what they claim it's essentially ACH payments. Buyer protection is low.

Venmo - as others have noted is owned by Paypal and was designed to be a system where you exchange cash. Think drinking at a bar as a group and someone pays the bill and you chip in. Buyer protection is non-existent.

I've had my issues with paypal and onetime it left me holding a 2k bill. A buddy sent my bike I sold to Canada (his company sends parcels a ton) - his lady sent the bike, didn't get insurance, got tracking, bike went missing. My biddies wife never got insurance, funny thing was USPS listed it as insured - the bike was stolen right from the counter is my bet. Dude filled and clearly won. I was mad (I was made whole through homeowners, though). I agree that sometimes paypal goes too far to the buyer - I've had buyers hold over stuff for a $10 refund on a $70 purchase. Whatever. In all honesty, paypal really doesn't work all that bad considering how many avenues there are (gift, paypal regular - you can pay with an account or a CC).

Ebaum - I got some stuff from you and it was spot on and I had no issues with it whatsoever. I will say, you seem to move a lot, you might want to consider square or something like that given your volume.

Just a thought.

[jc031699]

Sounds like you are angry enough to consider small claims court. Not sure who has jurisdiction in an online transaction, though. But this is definitely something that you should be able to get done yourself to some satisfaction. Perhaps that would be sufficient for them to reverse the ruling against you. Also, is there a process available for contesting it?

[unterhausen]

Paypal should be regulated as a bank, but they aren't. This has been known for a decade now, and they seem to have the political clout to keep it from happening. My guess is they are pretty good at avoiding accountability. This is small change in contrast to the royal screwing they have given some small businesses. Not sure how many small businesses can tolerate locking up $30k, but that's the kind of thing that Paypal does fairly regularly.

My only comment to the OP is that you seem to try to be too helpful to people. That got you in trouble on ebay and in the thing with the single speed conversion. I'm the opposite in my ebay listings. Everything is really guarded language, and I downplay the condition. I'm sure it costs me some money, but I've never had any problems.

[grawk]

Switching to another way to do credit card transactions just moves you to credit card chargebacks, which, honestly, are a bigger pain in the ass than paypal. They ALWAYS side on the side of the customer.

[tumbler]

I think it depends on the wheelset and what would normally come with it. If it was a factory built set, I think you need to mention it since these are almost always going to include skewers when new. If it's a hand built set that didn't come with them, I think it's fair to leave that out (although never a bad idea to mention it and avoid confusion). Caveat emptor is perfectly fine, but there are certain norms like skewers on factory wheels that may be reasonably assumed.

I had a similar experience buying a "like new" headset that arrived without the crown race. I fully understood how that could have been overlooked, but was expecting to receiving everything I needed to use the thing ("like new") and felt that this should have been mentioned. Ultimately, the seller was a nice guy and covered the cost of a replacement at my LBS.

I think a good practice is to compare your item to the factory package (if there is one) and note any discrepancies in what's included.

[eBAUMANN]

I think a good practice is to compare your item to the factory package (if there is one) and note any discrepancies in what's included.

I agree, that sounds perfectly reasonable to me. I just wish the dude had asked me about it beforehand if it mattered so much to him.

I sell a lot of wheels, most of them being NOT factory wheels, so I tend to just describe what I have there sitting in front of me. If I have skewers, I mention that they are included. I photograph and describe what I have, and occasionally forget to mention the stuff I don't...because I don't have it! If it matters to a buyer, generally they will ask, or comment on the thread with a question before buying.

I dunno, I tried to make it right by sending some skewers and this guy was just a total a-hole about it.

FWIW, it wasn't eBay, it was a dude on the Facebook Online Swap Meet group, "Sua Sponte" aka Kurt Page, do not sell to this dude...and if you know him, well...my condolences.

[kramnnim]

it was a dude on the Facebook Online Swap Meet group, "Sua Sponte" aka Kurt Page, do not sell to this dude...and if you know him, well...my condolences.

Thanks, was going to ask who it was.

[Tony T]

I have been using www.cash.me/ericbaumann to receive payments lately and it works quite well, depositing directly into your bank account so no need to withdraw and wait to get your money where you need it.

In closing, F*CK Paypal.

Thank you.

Cash.me also has a dispute process (https://squareup.com/help/us/en/article/3882-resolving-payment-disputes).
Looks like cash.me could just kick the resolution to the customers card issuer (i.e. AMEX) and could take up to 90 days.

Have you had to deal with a buyer dispute yet with cash.me?
If not, and you have to deal with another buyer like the one you described, you may be saying "F*CK cash.me"

My point is that cash.me may not be a constructive suggestion until you go through a similar dispute process with them

[NHAero]

In the OP's case, is the buyer responsible for the return shipping?

[eBAUMANN]

In the OP's case, is the buyer responsible for the return shipping?

As far as I know, yes.

And I agree that this probably could have happened with any payment company, but it happened with PayPal and this is a rant so I need a target ;)

I guess it might be more reasonable to direct frustration at they buyer but at the same time, PayPal supported his actions, so im equally pissed at them.