NAHBS builder chat: 10-15 minutes, what do you ask? [Archive]

pdmtong

01-13-2016, 04:55 PM

Fuzz's post about talking to Kent Ericksen in Charlotte (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=1894581&postcount=53) got me thinking...

During the two NAHBS I previously attended I wasn't in the market; for discussion now, let's say I am in the market. And I have identified a few builders whose creations I identify with: bike type, material, design, fabrication, aesthetic.

Trade shows being what they are, you really do not have more than 10-15 minutes of "conversation" with a particular builder. You aren't ordering the bike on the show floor and there are people lining up behind you to chat. So have a chat but don't waste time idly chatting.

Presumably you've read their website, seen some of their bikes on forums and understand the basics.

So what do you want to accomplish in those precious face-face moments? What are the intangibles to be discovered that aren't easily articulated on websites?

Understand their fit philosophy?
Design goals?
Degree of possible customization (fabrication, paint)?
Communication style - frequency, milestones?

While you think you can know someone over email or the phone, there is no substitute for 30 seconds face-face. I am NOT saying it is imperative to meet your builder but I am saying that face-face always betters any relationship.

So what would you folks steer the conversation towards...?

Of course you might be walking by a builder not previously considered and get stopped in your tracks. That's another conversation...

avalonracing

01-13-2016, 04:57 PM

I wouldn't let them know that you are ready to buy and see if they still treat you well. Character test.

Or you could just wave your checkbook and get their undivided attention.

Seriously though, I would just talk to them and see if you like what they have to say. I met a few of them at the show in Richmond and they were all good people and more than once I felt let saying, "Okay, let's do this".

echelon_john

01-13-2016, 05:02 PM

Music in common.
Liquor preference in common.

You know from prior research if he/she competent and build in the style you like.

See if he/she seems excited to build you a bike. You can't expect him/her to jump up and down, but when you describe what you have in mind, and they respond, is it a positive interaction? Do you feel like they want your business? Is it someone you can picture having several good and/or difficult conversations with?

It's a lot to expect of a few minutes' conversation on a busy show floor, but I think the main goal is to gut-check the assumptions you've made by doing your due diligence, and see if you perceive any red flags, or if one sways you more than another. I think you'll know.

My 2�

jmoore

01-13-2016, 05:07 PM

The shows I've been too, pretty much all the builders have been good to talk to. I learned more about their skills by really looking closely at their bikes than any pics on a website.

If I liked the bikes I saw and got along well with the builder, that would be enough for me to continue down the path with them.

The only question I'd ask is how many bikes have you built in the style and material I'm looking for. I'd want someone who has built multiple, esp if I'm paying a premium.

metalheart

01-13-2016, 05:37 PM

My first NAHBS I was looking for a builder. I spent most of the first day just looking at the bikes of the builders on my short list. The second day I arrived early to talk with the 3 or 4 who were on the very short list. If you know exactly what you want, then the conversation may be different than the ones I had, but most importantly I was listening for someone who could hear my needs and communicate well. I really did not know what questions to ask other than things about lead time and how they handle the fit process for someone who had no idea about what his fit should be.

In general, I found out what I needed to know: some communicate better than others for someone who had my needs. Unfortunately, one builder I REALLY wanted to talk with was always in demand for a conversation and it was just impossible to get any time with him on the second day of the show without barging in on someone else's talk with him. He had loads of time the first day, but I was just not ready then. If I had that one to do over, I would have made sure I found a way to get some time with him. The error was mine and not his.

alexstar

01-13-2016, 05:59 PM

I don't know that it really matters if you discuss specifics or minutia with a builder at NAHBS. Just try to get a handle on the builder's sensibilities and and how well they line up with your own. I've been to NAHBS twice and talked to many builders. The first time (Austin) I wasn't looking to buy anything, but after talking to Justin Spinelli and seeing the Gaulzetti Corsa up close I was sold on it and ordered one that summer. Just go with the flow IMO. :beer:

Oh, and go early on Friday or Saturday when everybody still has energy. By Sunday afternoon, fatigue has set in, and some people may not even be around.

eBAUMANN

01-13-2016, 06:10 PM

Oh, and go early on Friday or Saturday when everybody still has energy. By Sunday afternoon, fatigue has set in, and some people may not even be around.

great suggestion.

narrow your list as much as possible before you get there, focus on quantifiables like craftsmanship and other easily researched stuff. what kind of bike are you looking for? which builders specialize in that type of bike? it sounds like you have probably already done this...

so if its really just about picking a person, just talk to them about bikes, maybe comment on a frame they have on display, ask about an interesting detail you've noticed. small talk. try to get a feeling for their personality and how easy they might be to work with in the weeks/months ahead.

the builder can make or break the custom frame experience, choose wisely!

timto

01-13-2016, 06:13 PM

I would also ask if the builder has a favorite type of bike and seek builders that make lots of what you are into.

I know some fabricators can make any type of bike - but can't help but think things improve in tangible and intangible ways when the making is informed by lots of riding and experience in that particular discipline.

E.g. when I think track I think Kellogg. When I think cross I think of Sachs, when I think of hardtails I want a Garro... when I think steel race bike I think of David Kirk and coors bikes.

Good luck should be super fun!

John H.

01-13-2016, 06:40 PM

I think that you also need to ask yourself some questions about fit.
1.) Do I know the fit numbers I want?
2.) Do I need a builder to fit me? Or do I need a fitter to fit me before I work up a design with the builder
After that you can better ask questions to the builder.
1.) How does he/she arrive at the design
2.) Does he/she have fit/design/handling philosophies
3.) What do they consider "right on the mark" in terms of hitting a design, straightness, etc..
There are many builders who I would buy a frame from. There are very few builders who I would allow to fit me and then design a bike based on that fit.
I would say that Tom Kellogg is one of the few who I would trust to do it all-

Fuzz's post about talking to Kent Ericksen in Charlotte (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=1894581&postcount=53) got me thinking...

During the two NAHBS I previously attended I wasn't in the market; for discussion now, let's say I am in the market. And I have identified a few builders whose creations I identify with: bike type, material, design, fabrication, aesthetic.

Trade shows being what they are, you really do not have more than 10-15 minutes of "conversation" with a particular builder. You aren't ordering the bike on the show floor and there are people lining up behind you to chat. So have a chat but don't waste time idly chatting.

Presumably you've read their website, seen some of their bikes on forums and understand the basics.

So what do you want to accomplish in those precious face-face moments? What are the intangibles to be discovered that aren't easily articulated on websites?

Understand their fit philosophy?
Design goals?
Degree of possible customization (fabrication, paint)?
Communication style - frequency, milestones?

While you think you can know someone over email or the phone, there is no substitute for 30 seconds face-face. I am NOT saying it is imperative to meet your builder but I am saying that face-face always betters any relationship.

So what would you folks steer the conversation towards...?

Of course you might be walking by a builder not previously considered and get stopped in your tracks. That's another conversation...

FlashUNC

01-13-2016, 06:42 PM

oldpotatoe

01-14-2016, 06:31 AM

IMHO-when I went to interbike, I never, ever 'bought' anything. I was there to see, talk, learn but no deals or anything else. I left the shop credit card in the shop. THEN after the show, after the ohhh-ahhh died down, talked to the 2 guys in the shop with me..more conversations, then maybe 'buy'. I also think if possible, go to where the builder/supplier/manufacturer is..Like visit Moots or Waterford or Speedplay or whatever. A little easier in the shop, as I could have the outside rep come visit also. Tougher for a consumer.

tigoat

01-14-2016, 06:53 AM

Since you are already an experienced rider and buyer, most builders on your want list are likely to be top notch already so it makes no difference with the end result craftsmanship wise, whoever you choose for your next project. In this case, I would look for the attitude of the builder of interest, as whoever makes you feel happy the most will likely be a good choice. Wait time for a project is very important for many people including myself so that would probably be one of the top questions to ask in the conversation. I personally believe that if a builder has a queue for more than 6 months, he or she would be too busy for my consideration.

MattTuck

01-14-2016, 06:55 AM

Paul,

two things.

1.) Meeting in person is cool and all, but it is a fallacy to think that you can get to know someone from a few minute conversation. These guys may be laid back, like bikes, seem cool, but this is a selling opportunity for them. They are going to be in sales mode. If they weren't, it would be a waste of their money to attend a show like that. So, talk to them, but do so with a grain of salt -- and atleast recognize that you're being sold to.

2.) I'd focus on areas where you can differentiate and eliminate builders from your list. Your goal shouldn't be to collect as much information as possible. that may be fun, and interesting, but won't help you decide which builder you want to work with. You're better off determining what criteria are important to you, and asking questions about those, in hopes of eliminating a builder from your consideration set.

I guess what I'm saying is: Don't go there to just chat with a builder. Ask questions that will cut through the layer of selling and really help you decide which builder is right for you.

adrien

01-14-2016, 07:16 AM

Best advice I got before my first hand-builts was to start a conversation about how you like to ride. Distance, speeds, landscape, etc. So I'd talk about why you like to ride how you ride, and ask about what they would do to equip that.

I'd let the core (riding) be the entry point into what they do, who they like to work with, why, etc.

These guys do this for a living, and you are in theory looking to tap into their ability to make a machine for how individuals want to ride, from the moment of walking up to the bike to the moment of putting it away.

rounder

01-14-2016, 08:26 AM

I think you are buying the builder as much as the bike. The OP probably knows that.

Richmond was the only NAHBS that I went to. I chatted with lots of builders there just to say hi and talk about there bikes.

I did not go there with the expectation of buying a bike...I just wanted to see what the bikes would look like and meet some of the people. But after walking around for awhile and meeting some of the builders, I knew that I was going to buy a bike.

The three builders that I was most interested in were Richard Sachs, Dave Wages and Kelly Bedford. Richard's wait line was too long for me...about 8 years. Dave and Kelly were both previously associated with Serotta, where I already had two bikes. Their stuff was beautiful, and I knew that either could build something that I would love. In the end, I bought a bike from Kelly and was so happy that I bought another one.

livingminimal

01-14-2016, 08:42 AM

Meet some folks, keep it simple but most importantly (to me anyway) figure out who you'd like to continue the conversation with. Like someone said, everyone is gonna be in sales mode. Get a sense, take some notes, move on, talk more after the show.

The other thing I'd suggest, and it's probably a secondary conversation to have, is figure out what their business plan is. A lot of these newer builders are trying to become production bike companies, which is fine if that's what you're into. They want to scale their building because it's really the only way to make any money in this game.

Personally I am more interested in a 1v1 relationship with the builder where if I know I have a problem, I can call them directly and discuss it with them. I've been fooled a bit on this before. If it matters to you (and it matters to me) its something I would ask about in advance. But again, that may not be something that matters to you as much.

Peter P.

01-14-2016, 06:19 PM

"Hey I want to build this cool thing and had you in mind, what do you think about it?"

And let the convo go from there.

Also, "Hey, that looks cool on that display bike you have there, tell me more about it."

Exactly what I was going to suggest.

Ask an open ended question like, "I'm interested in your frames; what can you tell me about them?"

Ask even if you really AREN'T interested in a particular builder. Let the builder start talking because that's where you'll get a real feel and appeal for one over another. Their body language and words may captivate you or leave you flat.

fuzzalow

01-14-2016, 07:48 PM

I honestly don't think it matters what is presented or talked about in an exhibition hall. Everybody is likely to be on good behaviour during these kind of engagements. There is most definitely value in seeing a builder's work up close but also, realistically speaking, nobody displays less than their best work at these kind of events anyway. But these shows are extremely valuable in that they present a wide breadth and expanse of available builders and their work. Something on display in that exhibit hall might grab you. You may not even know why but it does. And that's all the hook you need to go willingly down the rabbit hole.

Any of my choices in custom builders has only relied on one thing alone. And that one thing, to the exclusion of all else, is that a chosen builder must be among the very best of builders currently accepting orders. There has never been any consideration of price. Which is not as profligate as it sounds because the unprofitable reality of the custom bike business is that the spread between the very best builders and the ordinary is not all that large a dollar amount. Of course and in fairness, there are any number of ways to determine "best". Safe to say on at least one criteria on best is that they have been building for at least 10 years or more so as a by-product there is not any concern for a builder not making good on a commission. I have never taken interest in any new, Internet hyped razzle-dazzle builders.

I have dealt with creative types in other walks of life. These types do not always possess the best salesperson skills who are at home glad handing & schmoozing clients like a politician. So I am not wholly demanding of any builder for his social skills as much as I hope to somehow identify skill in their obsessive and singular pursuit of their chosen craft. This product is the embodiment of something that I wish to own as the manifestation of that builder's emotion and dedication. So it feels less up to these builders to successfully pull off the dog 'n' pony show of these NAHBS-type of events as it is my reliance on my own taste, aesthetics and preferences in identifying, recognizing and working through to a successful completion a project I will undertake with any custom builder.

HaHa, sorry if this isn't quite what fits into a supportive story line for the raison d'etre of NAHBS-type exhibitions. For a bike enthusiast these shows will always be fun. For a bike buyer, these shows are but one piece in the puzzle in getting to the perfect bike. At least for what will stand as the perfect bike for this moment in time.

93legendti

01-14-2016, 08:10 PM

If I had identified a few builders I was considering for a new bike, I would look at their web sites and ID the bikes I liked. I'd think about what questions I wanted to ask and even write them down, as well as print photos of their bikes I liked, to discuss with the builders. I'd tell the builder why you were considering him/her, what you were looking for and ask if/how the builder could meet your goals.

I haven't been to a bike show, but I have been to boat, car, gun and guitar shows. Talking to vendors there wasn't as easy as a one on one without outside "distractions"-noisy, lots of people and hard to get good one on one time. So I would make sure to maximize my discussion time by being prepared.

shinomaster

01-14-2016, 08:18 PM

fa63

01-14-2016, 09:09 PM

The answer is David Kirk, even if he doesn't attend the show. Just send him your deposit already :D

Seriously though, when I was at the NAHBS in Sacramento a few years ago, the two that really stood out in a positive way were David Kirk and Nick Crumpton. Also the guys at Black Sheep. There were also a few who stood out in a negative way, but I won't name names here.

fuzzalow

01-15-2016, 08:27 AM

I talked to a few builders at NAHBS who seemed like arrogant dbags.. I also met some who were were cool, humble and talented. I'd always pick someone humble over arrogant (assuming they were talented).

All these interpersonal kinda interactions have there own vibe and level-setting. I really look at it no differently than if I encountered snobbery or attitude at a LBS. For me, it is largely a matter of knowledge and self confidence in response to this kinda BS when they lay it down on you. I know a lot about bikes. I have commissioned many custom bikes and worked with many custom builders. I know what I am doing and I highly doubt some schmuck with an attitude is gonna know more or intimidate me. The hell with any pompous SOB!

But there is another side of this too. And that is when a client comes at a builder with what I believe are misconceptions about the relationship between builder and client. A consumer-perverse outlook that says, in effect, "kiss my ass because you want my deposit cheque and 'the customer is always right'". Or barring that, an false expectation of things a builder cannot, and should not, be expected to do. Such as fix a client's fit & position problems simply by looking a client's physical stature over in first meeting them. Or a client that wants to spec bike geometry measurements to the millimeter because the client thinks he knows how to tailor to the handling characteristics he seeks. These are all myths and is IMO downright crazy. There are probably more but these two are the worst myths about what a client might expect from the custom bike experience off the top of my head.

The web allows people who have not worked with custom builders to perpetuate these falsities. People repeat a lotta stuff as fact because they think they are passing along accepted truths that don't have to be vetted assuming somebody upstream did the vetting. When in fact all the guy upstream did was pass it along while taking the positive stroke of being seen as an expert!

Of course I am not saying this is what happened with shinomaster. Dunno who was involved in this exchange, coulda been some new builder that learned attitude offa the web from some schmuck in imitating that example, or was having a bad day, or was trying to build aura around as a new builder to obfuscate from craft/skill he did not have. Who knows?

Mutual respect. Allow a builder to do what you hire he/she for. Work through projects not as customer-boss/builder-worker but as collaborative partners looking to make good on a project.

AngryScientist

01-15-2016, 08:41 AM

Mutual respect.

:beer: beers to that.

more than a builder-customer relationship - it's a good life philosophy.

jr59

01-15-2016, 08:42 AM

For me, it was putting a face to a voice, that's all! I went to the one in Denver, met a couple of guys from here, got taken out to Boulder to meet the old spud and see his shop. But really had my mind sort of made up before I got there, about who I wanted to see and talk with. It's a sales showcase. A dog and pony show, with plenty of eye candy, but nothing more than a show.

I did have some fun when I got big timed by a few guys. I reached in my pocket and pulled out 10,000. cash and watched their eyes jump out of their head. Funny how they became so nice after that. Needless to say, I did not buy anything from these guys and probly never will.

You aren't going to say anything in 15 mins that is going to make a big difference anyway, besides your order. For me, it was just faces with names.

BTW; I meet some pretty good guys there as well.

malcolm

01-15-2016, 08:58 AM

I've had several customs from a few different builders. For the most part it's been people I sorta felt I knew already from the internet either their direct interaction here or people here talking about them, so I had an idea what they were about already.

I like the one man shop. I tend to choose builders that would be someone I would have a beer with. If I'm plunking down my money I have to be secure in the fact that they know what they are doing and will do what they say and then stand behind it. I don't think you can always get that from a short conversation, many engaging enthusiastic people have poor attention to detail and follow through. I think you get that from a little internet research.
What you get in the short conversation is if you like the person, do they interest you, will you be excited about what they produce.
I honestly try and have as little input as possible beyond telling them what I want it to do, how I ride and answering any questions they have as honestly as possible.
For me I want their interpretation of my idea of what I want. Sounds vague, I know but so far it's worked spot on. If I wanted to dictate the tubes, angles etc. I would just go to the guy with a fair amount of experience that was the cheapest tell him what I wanted then send it to a good painter.
Lots of people can look at a blueprint and build a really nice frame. I want the guy that can give me something greater than the sum of the parts. Something I'm excited to look at as well as throw a leg over.

uber

01-15-2016, 08:59 AM

It is a show, and if you made the effort to go, you will probably want to see everything there. And like any meeting of enthusiasts, once you see with your own eyes, you might be less impressed with some products/builders or more depending on how personalities click. I was ignored at several builders I always had an interest in. Dario has near celebrity status but was as genuine and humble as anyone could be and he took the time to measure me for a frame. I knew of Kent Eriksen, but I did not expect how approachable he is, and I ended up ordering a frame weeks later. My friend and I joked he had a Dracula like hypnotic way of quietly talking about bikes that was pretty tough to walk away from. In short, go to a show with some of the best builders in the world and the natural chemistry might lead you to something you did not expect.

J. Anquetil

01-15-2016, 10:43 AM

d_douglas

01-15-2016, 03:21 PM

I talked to a few builders at NAHBS who seemed like arrogant dbags.. I also met some who were were cool, humble and talented. I'd always pick someone humble over arrogant (assuming they were talented).

Funny! I had Mike D build me a bike that I picked up at the one NAHBS I attended. I hadn't met him before, but some of my decision to choose him was based on his reputation as a nice, normal guy.

I can deal with just about anyone (I meet all kinds in my job), but it was a breath of fresh air to just chat with a builder vs strategize what to say.

I am very envious. It will be several years before I get to have another bike designed for me. It is a very fun process. I will miss NAHBS this year (in spite of being not-so-far away) in favour of chasing kids on a beach in Hawaii :)

buddybikes

01-15-2016, 04:16 PM

Personally, I would look at builders in driving distance, nothing better than talking about fit methods and if they have you go to their shop rather than self measurements. Buy local, ride global!

shinomaster

01-15-2016, 05:35 PM

Funny! I had Mike D build me a bike that I picked up at the one NAHBS I attended. I hadn't met him before, but some of my decision to choose him was based on his reputation as a nice, normal guy.

I can deal with just about anyone (I meet all kinds in my job), but it was a breath of fresh air to just chat with a builder vs strategize what to say.

I am very envious. It will be several years before I get to have another bike designed for me. It is a very fun process. I will miss NAHBS this year (in spite of being not-so-far away) in favour of chasing kids on a beach in Hawaii :)

Maybe Dbag is too harsh.. but if they don't seem interested in chatting then what's the point of being at a show? I went with Mike Zanconato because of his reputation as a builder and because he was just so genuinely personable and likable too. His bikes are killer!

foggypeake

01-16-2016, 07:06 AM

I went to Richmond and Louisville. I found that the no-nonsense, down to earth builders were the ones who I found myself talking the most to. They seemed to be there to display what they do without having to build (or paint) something gimmicky for the show. In fact, I remember noticing that all of the builders that I spoke the most to had frames that were either painted solid colors or were even naked.

Most of the time I talked to them about their background and experience and how long their wait time was. Not surprisingly, Della Santa, DiNucci, and Zanconato are now on my short list.

My wife wants a Sarto, as their rep was showing off their carbon bike with crocodile skin handlebar tape and speaking to her with his Italian accent. He told her that if she bought their frame, she would get the matching purse and shoes. She was trying to convince me that it was a great deal....

weisan

01-16-2016, 07:19 AM

My wife wants a Sarto, as their rep was showing off their carbon bike with crocodile skin handlebar tape and speaking to her with his Italian accent. He told her that if she bought their frame, she would get the matching purse and shoes. She was trying to convince me that it was a great deal....

I don't blame her...who can resist Mario?! :D

http://www.prologuecycling.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/IMG_4497-e1390963582343-843x1024.jpg

pdmtong

01-16-2016, 05:43 PM

Thanks everyone for the insightful comments.

I realize it's not much time and I'm being sold to. But I did want to get your collective thoughts to strategize/balance a "soft" casual get to know you conversation with some "hard" specifics and questions.

One area that I was struggling with is reasonable expectation as to personality. At the last two NAHBS some builders were just duds, but their work was clearly great. So I wanted to detach the personality from the output. That said, I know I am buying a package, and in the end, assuming the product is what I want, then it does come down to ensuring there is a working relationship that fits my personality and needs.

Truth is, I am happy with my current bikes, but I don't want to miss a chance to suss out some things when it is easily done. Just like I don't need another Peg but if I was visiting Dario, I surely would have him measure me.

never say never, right? and, I'll not over think this...just go have fun.