6/4 titanium

[Needs Help]

Hi,

Is Moots the first maker to use this stuff? Seven's "Technical Supplement" talks about 3/2.5 ti versus 6/4 ti, and says 6/4 is much tougher but having to weld sheets of 6/4 titanium into tubes creats a seam which has major drawbacks. The Technical Supplement also says that no tubing manufacturer currently has the ability to make seamless 6/4 tubing and won't for the forseeable future.

However, it sounds like Reynolds is now making seamless 6/4 titanium double butted tubing and that Moots is using it:

http://www.moots.com/news.php?News_ID=12

I think Seven's Technical Supplement is very interesting reading. It covers things like shot peening, polishing, tube shape, welding, tube butting process, and frame building, and their view of the advantages and disadvantages of the different processes. I recommend going by a Seven dealer and getting a copy.

[dbrk]

Seven's technical guide is dated. Reynolds has now for nearly a year offered seamless 6/4 ti tubing. Seven has said more recently that it has chosen not to use this tubing because it comes in limited sizes, i.e., butting, and that is therefore not suitable to their notions of fine tuning the ride by choosing from a wide selection of tubes for all sizes and riding styles. In short, they aren't saying the tubing isn't any good, they are saying that they can't get the ride they want for everyone who might want to use this tubing.

When I bought my VaMoots I worked closely with one of the fellas at Moots. He made the point that there was no substantial difference in the ride between their 3.2/5 tubing this new 6/4; that the difference was solely a matter of weight and that that was but a few ounces. Why do it then? Especially Moots who has always had the most sober and restrained notions of tubing being the root of a ride (a view which I strongly share...tubing considerations being far, far below other issues of frame design, wheel and tire choices, and fit, etc.), well, he said, because it now meets the seamless standard and some folks are all over the weight issue. Moots was at that time not offering the same warranty on 6/4 because they were not ready to commit to its longevity, it being a new product and their naturally skeptical views being what they are. Moots has such a sane, sober view of frame building, I must say.

Seven seems implicitly to be countering claims made by others who prefer methods unlike theirs, such as shot-peening and other manipulations such as swaging. We all know who the competition is and every bike company I've ever seen makes the same two claims: 1. Our way is the best way and 2. Our bikes are the best bikes (better than Their bikes). I cannot jump on the wagon that singles out Seven for being Too Much of whatever since the more I look at all bike catalogues the more obvious it is that a sober person must agree They All Do It. I make nothing of it. Who thinks someone else's product is better? Who would think that?! It's rather nice that a company believes in itself. I digress.

I doubt we will soon see Serottas in 6/4 because of the extra manipulation, the swagging. But what do I know.

dbrk

[vaxn8r]

Litespeed has been using seamed 6/4 ti for a long time---8 years at least. Their website is interesting in how they make framesets. I don't recall seeing they use seamless 6/4...if it were available seems like they'd be first in line because they pump out far more volume than Moots. Just my $.02

[vaxn8r]

Missed DBRK's post. I stand corrected.

[Needs Help]

Hi,

Thanks for the response. Another view: if you were a manufacturer concerned with turning out the best quality product, you would adopt all the best processess as you learned about them, and eventually your processes would be the equal or better than anyone elses, no? Maybe that company is Seven.

Also, I have never seen an about face like Serotta did with carbon in the rear triangle. They said there was no benefit, and then came up with the ST rear the next year. Ok, let's say I buy the argument that the pivot is helpful, then how does Serotta justify the Concours CS? No pivot, ergo no benefit, right?

So, my false advertising scorecard reads like this:

Serotta claims they have flawless welds: not the ones I've examined (new welder?). -1
Serotta claimed carbon had no benefit in the rear triangle, now they say the opposite. -1

Seven says 6/4 seamless ti isn't a reality in the near future. -1
(possibly more based on a critical examination of their claims)

Moots: as far as I know is the straight arrow so far.

Any pictures of your Vamoots online?

[dharleyd]

colnago has used 6/4 ti in there ovalmaster frames. don't know if they still make that model but they did a couple years ago.

[dbrk]

The 6/4 ti that Colnago uses is seamed, so "seamed" that you can see it on the underside! At least Litespeed brushes this out somehow. I don't know if this stuff breaks or is "weaker" (how weak is too weak?, much of that discussion is nonsensical), but there was a time when 6/4 was declared till hard, too brittle, too thisorthat, and especially hard to work with. I dunno, I don't weld bicycles, but if it's the Latest Greatest someone will make that point and sell it.

I like titanium bikes when the road is so nasty all you can think of doing is hosing it down when you are done. Otherwise, it's better than steel for what reasons? None.

dbrk
now that's opinionated...

[Needs Help]

Otherwise, it's better than steel for what reasons? None.

I can think of a couple: it's lighter, and it doesn't rust so when you chip your paint or scratch your dropouts, you don't have to battle rust every year. :)

No Vamoots pics? :(

[Jeff N.]

As I think was previously stated, seamless 6/4 from Reynolds is available in a very limited number of diameters and wall thicknesses, so Seven can't tune their frames the way they like to do....especially for the big, powerful riders. I'm sure there'll be other sources for seamless 6/4 in the future, and you can bet it'll be oh-so-expensive stuff. I'll just stick to 3/2.5, thank you very much. Jeff N.

[Needs Help]

These tubes are available to us in 3 diameters and 4 gauges for use in the main frames

It seems like you could tune the ride plenty with those choices. Hmmm...now I'm not sure I understand the difference between diameter, butting, and gauge? Let's see I think: diameter would be the measurement from outside edge to outside edge, gauge would be the wall thickness(before butting?), and then a mandrel is used to reduce the wall thickness in the middle of the tubes to create double butting.

Jeff N.,

What is your favorite riding ti bike between Moots, Seven, and Serotta?

[Jeff N.]

Thats a tough one. I'd have to say my Moots Vamoots is my favorite ride. Serotta Legend Ti and Seven Axiom tied for second. But I trade off alot, and I love 'em all. Jeff N.

[shinomaster]

Dbrk is right..

Every company says their tubing is the lightest and strongest weather is is Ti, or aluminum or even steel. My serotta catalogue from 1999 is no exception.. it is so pro Serotta and anti everyone else that it almost makes me sick. True or not. I have no idea. The way I see it, most frame materials of the same type are more similar than different.

[Needs Help]

How is the 6/4 ceramic frame coming along? I know you make the cranks already. :)

[jpw]

It would be better to ignore 6/4 as if it didn't even exist. It contributes nothing that 3/2.5 cannot.

In addition, there are other forms of tubing being manufactured in various countries (Japan, Russia et.c.) made from quite different titanium alloys (e.g. manganese alloy- see magmaa.com as one source for more information on this).

Airborne make a frame with Reynolds 6/4, which may highlight that what a frame is made from should not necessarily be the first considered when choosing.

Moots are very conservative in their choices. This is not just in tubing. They are only now starting to produce an ebb. Their comparatively small size probably contributes to some degree to this 'after you Claude' approach.

[Needs Help]

I'd have to say my Moots Vamoots is my favorite ride.

Interesting: straight gauge tubing wins out over triple butted tubing.

[JohnS]

Interesting: straight gauge tubing wins out over triple butted tubing.
According to the Serotta catalog I read, butting doesn't contribute to the ride. It merely allows the tube to be thinner where strength isn't needed. Also, butting makes the butts thicker, not the middle thinner.

[flydhest]

A couple of things ought to borne in mind, it seems to me. That a company's own material is in favor of that company seems to be a given, and not something to whinge about. It's advertising. The exalted Rivendell does the same thing, and if you want to take it seriously, is quite galling. Their website has a section saying "A better way to ride" so not only are their bikes better, everything they do with regards to biking is better. Now, no one (at least no one sensible) will say that Grant Peterson doesn't know a lot about bikes, but come, come now.

Second, why the relapsing into bad-mouthing Serotta? Not just this thread, others as well. It seems unfortunate and the tone is a bit of a disservice to those doing it. My memory of Serotta's words on carbon was that they didn't see a benefit to carbon and wouldn't build one unless they could make it "a Serotta" which, besides being intentionally vague, is tautological. It's in the advertising. Anyone who takes that overly seriously and gets worked up about it is revealing far more about themselves than the company. a-d-v-e-r-t-i-s-i-n-g.

[jpw]

It is quite possible that in a competitive market place a form of agent provocateur could be being used in discussion forums such as this to sow the seeds of doubt in the minds of wavering buyers. It's impossible to know who is behind a registered users moniker. Take it all with a huge handful of salt.

My view is still that carbon is not necessary, compact geo. is normally not required, breezer style dropouts are better, and that cycling is wonderful even when it's terrible.

Serotta all alloy = nice

Moots = nice

Strong all alloy = nice...

...and there are others of worth, but they're not to my personal taste.

[dbrk]

It is nearly always the tone rather than the content that distinguishes irksome posts. Poorly articulated or unnecessarily belligerent humors are typical of Internet discourse, as we all know, but let us not forget that both Franklin and Clemens "hid" beneath their nom de plume. There is no need to see subversive "corporate" (my term) sabotage as either the motive or desired effect of these negative posts.

I feel grateful to Serotta for its thick-skinnedness in the face of many comments I make that are less than flattering. But I say the same things about Rivendell, Seven, heck, if all you can do is gush then you are reduced to uncritical endorsement of everything. This would reduce this Forum to the level of Yet Another Cycling Magazine (name yers...even Cycling Plus is a gusher, imho). Helpful criticism is _both_ constructive and subversive, at least when it is good. It will not please everyone and it will be used by The Least Helpful to advance their meanness. It makes True Believers (aka The Choir) twitch with reproving glares and offer the Detractors (aka The Dispisers) their ammunition for their agendas. Cricitcism is the third rail of partisanship, all too rare but helpful despite the tendency to identify with The Choir or The Dispisers. One only has to go to the current level of political discourse to see the ad hominem daily elevated behind the masks of critical thinking. Why people can't be nice when they disagree or even when they want to rip into something/one is beyond me. Civility rather than dissimulation is nearly lost on our society. Social commentary ended.

I have often said that I am skeptical of It's the Tubes, Dammit notion because I think that it demeans Serotta inadvertently. In other words, I think there are MUCH better reasons why Serottas are such great bikes than the rather insignificant-in-comparison notion that the tubes are what is making the difference. Design, fit, design, go there; the ride is not the tubes, it's the bike and that is a much more subtle notion. But there is so little to sell in bike making and marketing nowadays. What hasn't been said? What's realllly all that new _and_ better? Everyone has to say that It's This you should pay attention to. Advertizing is by definition uncritical, partisan thinking. We should accept that. That Serotta (and few others) endorse some critical thinkin' on the part of its partisans speaks volumes to their integrity, decency, and deeper character than even their advertizing advances. Oh yeah, I hate the icons. All of them. But I love the folks who use them. Just one of those things.

dbrk

p.s. NPR's Bob Edwards is interviewing Eric Clapton on his new recordings of Robert Johnson tunes. There is hope in this world that greatness has not completely been reduced to hype...

[David Kirk]

It seems ( seams ?) to me that 6-4 is the answer to a question that no one has asked.

Pun intended.

Dave

[Roy E. Munson]

DBRK,

Clapton will release an entire album of covers of songs by Robert Johnson on March 30 - Me and Mr. Johnson (I'm guessing you knew this). I heard it in it's entirety last night - it's great!!!! I don't know if I'm more looking forward to that or daylight savings time!!

[davids]

p.s. NPR's Bob Edwards is interviewing Eric Clapton on his new recordings of Robert Johnson tunes. There is hope in this world that greatness has not completely been reduced to hype...

The little bit I heard (and I heard it on a $15 radio) sounded a bit scholastic to me. Not the spark of creation, in-the-moment brilliance that I hear in Robert Johnson's recordings, more like a careful homage. Of course, more listening may change this impression.

Now, Aerosmith's "Honking the Bobo" sounds more like the blooze!

[jpw]

I'm merely highlighting the known techniques of marketing that do exist and wondering,...with tactics such as 'gorilla marketing' being one example. In China there is only one opinion and yet 1.3bn people. In the west...well, it reminds me of the joke about the ten economists and their eleven opinions.

[JohnS]

One of the worst concerts I ever saw was Eric Clapton about 20 years ago in Mobile, Alabama. Muddy Waters was the opening act and EC came out and tried to "out-blues" Muddy. It was embarrassing.

[djg]

seemless Reynolds 6/4 ti pipes--I seem to remember airborne ads claiming to be first--but I'm not really interested enough in the answer to look into it. Both Colnago and Litespeed have been using "seamed" 6/4 tubing for a number of years now and there is nothing wrong with it at all. In Colnago's case, both the Ovalmaster and the CT1 have been around--dependably--for years (and now the CT2 uses these tubes). Once upon a time, there was some real crappe seamed steel tubing available--this aint it.

Personally, I wouldn't worry too much about whether the tubing is 3/2.5 or 6/4--I'd just pick (as I've done) the design that I liked. Either alloy can be used to build a frame that is plenty light. Either can be drawn or formed into tubes of the right diameter to be plenty stiff (or not). And neither alloy specifies a geometry.

[jpw]

Story. True.

Reg Harris, world track champion of the mid twentieth century. Raleigh made his frames. On one occasion they made 24 IDENTICAL frames, EXACTLY the same- tubes, geometry, everything. He test rode all 24 on identical components and took away only 3 frames. Why? He said that they were the ones with "happy and relaxed tubes" while the other 21 were "off". He was refering to the way the tubes had been welded together to form the truss of the frame. The 3 were in harmony while the 21 were fighting each other. Interesting. By that ratio we all have a 1 in 8 chance of finding the happy ride. Not great odds.

[Needs Help]

"We looked first to the work that other companies have done. Why is it that carbon is used in the rear half of bicycles? The answer is that there isn't a good answer, except that it looks chic."

Serotta 2002 catalog

[jpw]

You know people hate being confronted by their previous statements. I do.

I think in a way they do look chic. A woman can also look chic, but can also be hell to live with.

[Climb01742]

there's a fine line between being principled and being closed minded. changing one's mind isn't a weakness. ben could have changed his mind for a number of reasons. progress. innovation. bowing to a trend. to sell more frames. who knows for sure. motives are hard to figure. if a frame rides well or not, not so hard to figure.

[jpw]

Ben Serotta can choose to make carbon but 'we' decide whether to buy them. If we don't buy he won't make them anymore. Supply and demand rules. Remember the DKS? Nice idea that didn't sell.

[Needs Help]

there's a fine line between being principled and being closed minded. changing one's mind isn't a weakness.

Agreed. I'm looking at the Concours CS, Legend, Moots, and Seven with a critical eye(perhaps too critical) because I am going to buy one, and I'm trying to figure out what's true and what isn't. I'm sorry if I offended anyone. :(

[Russell]

One of the worst concerts I ever saw was Eric Clapton about 20 years ago in Mobile, Alabama. Muddy Waters was the opening act and EC came out and tried to "out-blues" Muddy. It was embarrassing.

Still he was turning on alot of people to Muddy for the first time. :cool:

[jpw]

Needs Help,

No need for the glum icon look.

Concours, solid frame, last a loooong time.

Legend, ditto.

Moots, ditto.

Seven,...ditto, but...not for me.

Before you decide try to get a test ride on at least two different makes. This will tell you what you need to know more than any opinions you might get from this or any other forum. If possible have the same or similar equipment on each frame, especially wheels. This will give a neutral comparison, but don't rush your decision. Take some time to digest the experience. Think about it, maybe ride the bikes again, think some more, than forget about the whole thing for a couple of weeks... and then decide.

[Climb01742]

needshelp--when you test ride a legend, see if the tubing is oversized. every test ride i did on a legend had oversized tubes and i didn't like them. my hors has zero oversized tubes and i love it. night and day different from the other legends i rode. not all legends are created equal.

[Andreu]

...

[Andreu]

The Reg Harris story and last post (by climb) got me thinking.....
is there more difference between bikes made by the same manufacturer (of identical types of material) then bikes made by different manufacturers (of the same identical materials) This is probably a hypothetical question because the data would be difficult to get hold of ....but I have experienced this before in other industries where we have tried to replicate pieces of equipment to get desired results and erm....failed.
The metal quality will differ day to day....depending where how its made cut processed etc. Then a builder (a human being...who has variations day to day etc) has to take these materials (with variation) and make a bike.....its a bloody complex process and measuring or knowing variation is important. Whether we perceive these differences in the final frame is another matter.
A

[Jeff N.]

Whatever your choice, I'm certain you'll be very happy with the end product.Seven, Serotta and Moots road frames are all fabulous creations that any serious cyclist would be proud to own. No question. Jeff N.

[Climb01742]

andreu--my point was only that a legend built with OS tubes will ride differently than one built without. and that needshelp should try to ride a frame that is as close to the one he might buy. over the years, i've been pretty turned off to legends. not any more. but until i had a chance to ride one built more like one that i would build, how would i know? that's the leap of faith of custom.

[vaxn8r]

>>He said that they were the ones with "happy and relaxed tubes" while the other 21 were "off". He was refering to the way the tubes had been welded together to form the truss of the frame. The 3 were in harmony while the 21 were fighting each other.<<

No offense ot the great Harris but I'm skeptical...as usual...what else is new? I guess I'd be more willing to believe it today in a controlled setting, same day testing with indoor trainer with watt meter etc. Way too many other factors, including nutritional state and rest. But hey, whatever makes you ride better. Placebos work too.

[gt6267a]

about the reg harris story :

i am interested to hear from someone with experience building frames and welding. i suspect that during the construction process -- tacking, welding, aligning ... the tubes are able to be under more or less stress.

to make an example, i imagine building a frame by welding everything but the top tube in place. then find that the fit top tube does not align as perfectly as it did before the welding. so, then, it must be forced into place. then, once the frame is done welding it is aligned. so it rides straight.

my question: is it forced the same way every time? probably not. that means the tubes are under differing tensions between frames. therefore, the bikes might have different ride qualities? maybe?

of course, i also suspect that a master frame builder knows what changes will happen due to each weld and account for that at the begining of the process to get the desired result. this would be a very important quality control factor. therefore, if the welders in question did not do this perfectly ... ?

a guess, but i do like to guess.

[Needs Help]

Unfortunately, no test riding is available for any of the dealers I mentioned, and I'm not sure jacking up a 56cm test ride frame to fit me would give much indication anyway. I have to go on blind faith and what I can learn.

[csb]

[jpw]

Reg Harris.

My feeling is that all frames are in some subtle way unique.

A master frame builder would have the knowledge of how to weld a frame in sequence to achieve the necessary alignment compensation to counteract heat distortion issues. However, i doubt anyone has the ability to control this process to the degree that permits the creation ;) of frames that have the exact same ride characteristics again and again and again. There will be differences.

[jpw]

gt6267a,

See the Carl Strong website. He talks about sequence of welding where the final weld brings the frame back to perfect alignment to compensate for heat distortion. I'm skeptical that it is possible to achieve such control. I think all
frame builders resort to cold setting to get things straight and true.