PSA: parents, just stop!

[Zoodles]

I have had several conversations about kids (4+) doing triathlon club and now just read yet another club pushing indoor cycling for kids as young as 8 yrs old.

Now, I love cycling too and I find my trainer to be an incredible tool but I cannot think of any quicker way to kill a kids enthusiasm. Folks these are adult distractions.

So here's my PSA for the month:
In order to develop your future athletic star force them to go outside and play tag, play ball, make snowmen, bmx, ride a bike in the snow - not go to tri camp for 5 yr olds, do 'bricks' or indoor train.

[eddief]

and he knows he wants to win the Tour de France:

http://www.wimp.com/prodigy-jazz/

I love the music and the kid is just sort of a miracle. When god handed out brains, I thought he said trains....

[buckfifty]

I hear that it's better to let kids do multiple sports when they're young so they get a feel for what they like. and so they don't get burnt out on sticking to one particular sport or activity

[Drmojo]

Is the best "cross training"
When they find an activity they like
AND
Are pretty good at
Watch out and try not to brag

Brag moment:
My 14 yr old went to Junior Nationals in swimming, is 3 seconds from Olympic trials cut in 100 back

She loves it
Never pushed
Her sister--2 yrs older--swam but now loves dance
I tried cycling, running with them--but they just did not like it.

[Mikej]

Is the best "cross training"
When they find an activity they like
AND
Are pretty good at
Watch out and try not to brag

Brag moment:
My 14 yr old went to Junior Nationals in swimming, is 3 seconds from Olympic trials cut in 100 back

She loves it
Never pushed
Her sister--2 yrs older--swam but now loves dance
I tried cycling, running with them--but they just did not like it.

3 seconds or .3 seconds? if kids want to ride a trainer let them. Remember being a kid? It took a lot to burn out.

[Plum Hill]

And play in the dirt!

[numbskull]

Organized youth sports is a huge complex issue (and business) and until you have been part of it you probably can't begin to comprehend how it effects you and your child. Like any complex subject there is plenty of bad and plenty of good about it.

If you chose the organized sport route, then starting a child young and training them while their brains are developing gives them the best chance of succeeding. In sports requiring complex coordination such as soccer it is very rare for someone to be able to pick the sport up late as a teenager and enjoy any real success. That said, unless the child plays the sport on their own, not just at organized practices, there is also little chance of excelling.

[sg8357]

And play in the dirt!

Too dangerous, maybe with clean dirt inside, you should start a league.

[berserk87]

Adults can be ruiners of youth sports, getting in the way and imposing their own agendas on kids.

Not too many sports pros were made at age 8, but I can tell you that a great many kids have had their enthusiasm for organized sports killed off at such an age.

Most kids seem to pick up drive and initiative for a sport when they get into high school, and then it becomes their own thing.

America seems to be suffering from an obesity and fitness crisis and I am surprised that there is not more emphasis on getting kids to just do things, in a more unstructured fashion, when they are younger, versus "winning". Being competitive usually develops at a later age.

When I coached youth soccer a few years back, it was evident that the kids I coached were more concerned about whether to get a Ring Pop or Fun Dip from the concession stand after the game.

[guido]

Hmmmmm.... I wish the options of triathlon or bike racing were valid options when I was growing up. Lots of thing might have been different...

[merckx]

I have had several conversations about kids (4+) doing triathlon club and now just read yet another club pushing indoor cycling for kids as young as 8 yrs old.

Now, I love cycling too and I find my trainer to be an incredible tool but I cannot think of any quicker way to kill a kids enthusiasm. Folks these are adult distractions.

So here's my PSA for the month:
In order to develop your future athletic star force them to go outside and play tag, play ball, make snowmen, bmx, ride a bike in the snow - not go to tri camp for 5 yr olds, do 'bricks' or indoor train.

Scream this from the rooftops!

[AngryScientist]

lol'ing at tri-camp.

triathlons are for middle aged, upper middle class people with something to prove to themselves and their instagram followers no? getting 9yo's involved is just cruel treatment.

[93legendti]

I am no expert, but near as I can tell, every kid is different.

[malcolm]

I hear that it's better to let kids do multiple sports when they're young so they get a feel for what they like. and so they don't get burnt out on sticking to one particular sport or activity

This is interesting. There was a fairly large study done, I don't recall where but it looked at kids specializing in one sport and the kids that played multiple sports longer before switching over to just one or never switching tended to actually be better at their given sports than those that specialized from a young age.
Obviously many variables to control but it seems to make sense if for no other reason than you will develop better hand eye coordination and probably better overall fitness.
Generally pushing any 4 year old or any kid to do something they don't want to is counter productive. Now as a parent there is an art to gentle coercion and a difference between that and pushing.

[christian]

triathlons are for middle aged, upper middle class people with something to prove to themselves and their instagram followers no? getting 9yo's involved is just cruel treatment.
My kid (7) swims on the summer recreational swim team, runs recreational orienteering meets with me, and obviously rides his bike everywhere. He told me just last week that in 2016, he wants to do a triathlon, because any sport that combines those three activities would be "so fun!"

I wasn't quite sure what to say.

[gasman]

My kid (7) swims on the summer recreational swim team, runs recreational orienteering meets with me, and obviously rides his bike everywhere. He told me just last week that in 2016, he wants to do a triathlon, because any sport that combines those three activities would be "so fun!"

I wasn't quite sure what to say.


Just say yes. Let him do it if he wants to. I started swimming competitively when I was 8 but was burned out by the time I finished high school. Glad I did it and my parents didn't push me.

[cfox]

I can't fathom pushing a 5yr old to do anything other than finish his peas. Involving little tykes in super-structured adult sports is just another manifestation of the modern "uber-child" syndrome. It's the same syndrome that allows to exist college prep services for freaking preschoolers to get them on track for the Ivy league. Gag.

It is so easy to burn out a kid. It's usually the parents that have a passion for a sport and try to pass it along to their kid. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. My kid pushed me to get him involved in a sport that I had zero knowledge of. I went with it and he's excelled. Now I love it maybe more than he ever did. Even though it was his desire that got us into it in the first place, I am still careful not to push. It's about fun first and never any pressure other than what he puts on himself. There is always plenty of down time, time to play other sports and time to do stupid kid stuff. We regularly compete with kids that are home-schooled specifically to have more time to compete/practice. When a family completely changes their life to accommodate a youth sport...that's a lot of pressure and the kids can feel it. There is no reason to turn your kid into a professional athlete at age 10.

[christian]

Just say yes. Let him do it if he wants to.Ok, but if he asks for compression socks, I'm throwing him out of the house. :)

[purpurite]

My 6-year old still rides with training wheels, puts flower stickers on her helmet and is upset if the handlebar streamers don't "flutter" just right in the wind. Sounds about right to me.

[benb]

This is interesting. There was a fairly large study done, I don't recall where but it looked at kids specializing in one sport and the kids that played multiple sports longer before switching over to just one or never switching tended to actually be better at their given sports than those that specialized from a young age.


Yes I saw this too... ISTR hearing Edwin Moses talk about it on NPR on this show:

http://onpoint.wbur.org/2015/10/16/youth-sports-competitive-parents-decline

IIRC he actually mentioned he started organized sports extremely late.. like late HS or something and then progressed super quickly and ended up spectacularly successful.. the show details it but he runs some kind of foundation that studies Youth sports now.

[velomonkey]

I coach Lacrosse and I can tell you for certain - adults are the ones who screw this up - not the kids.

We got our 2020-2022 team - basically 5th and 6th graders. We play on and off through the year, but certainly not the whole year. By far, the worst parent is some dude who thinks his kid is gonna be the next Lance Armstrong. His poor kid, nice kid, but is just getting garbage from his dad.

If your kid is in 5th or 6th grade and likes bikes great - if they really want to race, put them in BMX. I guarantee that will get them further and teach them more in preparation of becoming a junior than anything done in road riding.

[Dead Man]

If a kid WANTS to do it, why the crap not?? But thats gonna be a pretty damn rare thing. My kids have expressed interest in racing (road, not try), but dont want to now, and im not gonna push them. Thats been, in my experience, the most efficient way to get them to HATE the things i love and hope they'll take an interest in

[pdmtong]

Organized youth sports is a huge complex issue (and business) and until you have been part of it you probably can't begin to comprehend how it effects you and your child. Like any complex subject there is plenty of bad and plenty of good about it.

If you chose the organized sport route, then starting a child young and training them while their brains are developing gives them the best chance of succeeding. In sports requiring complex coordination such as soccer it is very rare for someone to be able to pick the sport up late as a teenager and enjoy any real success. That said, unless the child plays the sport on their own, not just at organized practices, there is also little chance of excelling.

this is so true. pull the thread forward to high school. see those freshman on varsity on their way ot NCAA scholarships at Cal and Stanford? My daughter can kill any of them on her mtb but she can't make the team. why? no one starts an organized sport in high school. those kids have been in a focused club program for years prior. you want an athletic scholarship? start early.

I think the sad thing is dedicating to a single sport kills the chances for experimentation with other sports.

there just isnt time in the 2016 student day to be normal. work on academics, help around the house, play a sport(s), volunteer, do a few clubs, learn a language, play an instrument.

[fuzzalow]

I dunno. I am well past the stage of parenting for middle school or high school sports. I'd guess my guiding mantra for any of this is to support and do what your kids are interested in without regard to the end result other than as learning for them & enjoyment. Scholarships and all that jazz is great but if that's what the desired result is, then a parent who thinks that way is barking up the wrong tree. Money issues/pressures seen as a parent have no place spilling over into a kid's existence. Thete will be plenty of time for that post-HS years.

Organized K-12 sports is a sham. It distracts from the fact that Johnny/Janey can't read well or do math. Which is what the 99% of them need to enter into some form of responsible, wage-capable adult life. The 1% that will manage to earn a living at professional sports will be the only winners in this entire sham and scam. HaHa! Easy to cheer your kid on from the sidelines - that's a spectator sport! Helping them how & what to read, reason and tutor math - that's a participation sport! Not so easy.

Jeepers, all of sporting culture - just follow the money!

[dalava]

this is so true. pull the thread forward to high school. see those freshman on varsity on their way ot NCAA scholarships at Cal and Stanford? My daughter can kill any of them on her mtb but she can't make the team. why? no one starts an organized sport in high school. those kids have been in a focused club program for years prior. you want an athletic scholarship? start early.

I think the sad thing is dedicating to a single sport kills the chances for experimentation with other sports.

there just isnt time in the 2016 student day to be normal. work on academics, help around the house, play a sport(s), volunteer, do a few clubs, learn a language, play an instrument.

Youth sports, as a huge business, is driven largely by college scholarship opportunities and the dream of making it to pro. For boys, they are mostly sticks and balls, while for girls, because of Title IX, there are more variety. Triathlon is getting slowly introduced into NCAA as a full-ride scholarship sports, and there is a tidal wave of youth triathlon business about to come, just wait another year.

My 13-year old daughter is a year-round club swimmer since 7 and enjoys triathlon, FWIW. For her, doing triathlon adds more variety and she's now part of a tri team locally. And I can tell you this: these year-around swimmers have some threshold endurance. I can drop her on the flat, but as soon as the road tilts up, she just hamster the bike at 80-90rpm right pass me. The other day, we did a 40-mile loop with about 3000ft of climb, and we averaged over 17mph, and she passed me on every one of those >5% gradient climbs. Oh, she also ran under 6mm pace for 5Ks. And she's just one of several of these girls on her tri team.

Note for all us middle-age triathletes, you will be seeing a lot more of these super fast youth/junior in your local events soon.

[Zoodles]

My kid (7) swims on the summer recreational swim team, runs recreational orienteering meets with me, and obviously rides his bike everywhere. He told me just last week that in 2016, he wants to do a triathlon, because any sport that combines those three activities would be "so fun!"

I wasn't quite sure what to say.

This is a well rounded set of activities and 7 seems the right age to start. My daughter basically did the same and also did a tri when she was 8.

I'm all for very active kids. In addition to other sports both my kids ride lots. Im the summer my daughter mtb's a couple times a week and at 9 will Try a race or two. Her 4 yr old brother is so obsessed with shredding single track and the jump park I have to keep it as a treat and direct him to other activities. We keep it short, work on skills if anything, and emphasize fun (and wildlife). I don't think either of them will touch a trainer till they're thirteen or so.

Velomonkey hits it bang on, bmx = great cyclist in any discipline.

[Hank Scorpio]

Why get a child that young involved in tri's when they can't get a tattoo until they are 18?

Are there IM temporary tattoos?

[verticaldoug]

It depends on the sports. For girls lax and field hockey, it is less about trying to get an athletic scholarship and more about just getting a spot on the roster at a school which is good academically. For most women's sports, the coach is probably splitting scholarships so the athlete gets a 1/4 1/3 1/2 ride. Unless the kid is a real impact player, the full ride is not in the picture.

Unless you are legacy, the only edge you can get into a good school is with a commit from the coach. Or you can have your child diagnosed with a learning disability of some sort to get unlimited time on the college boards which should be good for an additional 100-150 points. At least that is the strategy in Westchester.

[cfox]

I dunno. I am well past the stage of parenting for middle school or high school sports. I'd guess my guiding mantra for any of this is to support and do what your kids are interested in without regard to the end result other than as learning for them & enjoyment. Scholarships and all that jazz is great but if that's what the desired result is, then a parent who thinks that way is barking up the wrong tree. Money issues/pressures seen as a parent have no place spilling over into a kid's existence. Thete will be plenty of time for that post-HS years.

Organized K-12 sports is a sham. It distracts from the fact that Johnny/Janey can't read well or do math. Which is what the 99% of them need to enter into some form of responsible, wage-capable adult life. The 1% that will manage to earn a living at professional sports will be the only winners in this entire sham and scam. HaHa! Easy to cheer your kid on from the sidelines - that's a spectator sport! Helping them how & what to read, reason and tutor math - that's a participation sport! Not so easy.

Jeepers, all of sporting culture - just follow the money!

High school athletes consistently have higher GPAs than non-athletes.

[malcolm]

I dunno. I am well past the stage of parenting for middle school or high school sports. I'd guess my guiding mantra for any of this is to support and do what your kids are interested in without regard to the end result other than as learning for them & enjoyment. Scholarships and all that jazz is great but if that's what the desired result is, then a parent who thinks that way is barking up the wrong tree. Money issues/pressures seen as a parent have no place spilling over into a kid's existence. Thete will be plenty of time for that post-HS years.

Organized K-12 sports is a sham. It distracts from the fact that Johnny/Janey can't read well or do math. Which is what the 99% of them need to enter into some form of responsible, wage-capable adult life. The 1% that will manage to earn a living at professional sports will be the only winners in this entire sham and scam. HaHa! Easy to cheer your kid on from the sidelines - that's a spectator sport! Helping them how & what to read, reason and tutor math - that's a participation sport! Not so easy.

Jeepers, all of sporting culture - just follow the money!

Leave football at the bigger high schools out of the picture and this statement is nonsense.
The average lacrosse player on my daughters teams have always been well above average students and at least in our community that's what I see in other sports as well, excepting maybe football.
Middle school and High school sports are about a lot more than just sports. Being part of a team, learning to accept coaching, instruction and criticism are all important parts of participating is sport.

[sandyrs]

Unless you are legacy, the only edge you can get into a good school is with a commit from the coach. Or you can have your child diagnosed with a learning disability of some sort to get unlimited time on the college boards which should be good for an additional 100-150 points. At least that is the strategy in Westchester.

Yes, but Westchester (in my case Scarsdale) standards of what is a "good" college are often totally out of touch with reality (ask me how I know).

[rugbysecondrow]

I don't want to get on the hamster wheel of youth sports. There is a great big world, and my kids can play whatever they want, but they need to develop hobbies and learn to commit to betterment. The whole idea of travel this, club that...I just balk at it.

I also think some sports are better than others. I really abhor wrestling because of the way I have seen coaches lean on players to maintain weight, cut weight, eat poorly (anorexia) just for the sake of the sport. Football, as a youth sport, seems to be pretty ridiculous. Most boys play until 17, then never touch a football again. Why spend the effort to learn something that will never convey to adulthood, but might actually cause harm?

Biking, tennis, running, softball, soccer, golf etc etc, all can be played well into adulthood for a lifetime of enjoyment and cultivation.

I dunno. I am well past the stage of parenting for middle school or high school sports. I'd guess my guiding mantra for any of this is to support and do what your kids are interested in without regard to the end result other than as learning for them & enjoyment. Scholarships and all that jazz is great but if that's what the desired result is, then a parent who thinks that way is barking up the wrong tree. Money issues/pressures seen as a parent have no place spilling over into a kid's existence. Thete will be plenty of time for that post-HS years.

Organized K-12 sports is a sham. It distracts from the fact that Johnny/Janey can't read well or do math. Which is what the 99% of them need to enter into some form of responsible, wage-capable adult life. The 1% that will manage to earn a living at professional sports will be the only winners in this entire sham and scam. HaHa! Easy to cheer your kid on from the sidelines - that's a spectator sport! Helping them how & what to read, reason and tutor math - that's a participation sport! Not so easy.

Jeepers, all of sporting culture - just follow the money!

[benb]

Most of the hamster wheel is just an industry there to serve itself, if you like it as a kid and the parents are willing and the $$ are there go for it. I'm young enough I was somewhat part of the modern hamster wheel for soccer as a kid and into high school. (It's gotten a lot crazier in the last 20 years) I took myself off when I was done in 11th grade.. I pretty much have 0 interest in soccer as an adult. The whole thing was a strange experience in retrospect.

A big part of the issue is the charade that it's about scholarships or going pro... it's not 1% that make it, it's far less than 1%, at least in the big sports.

Apparently the only youth sports that are actually expanding at this point are Hockey and Lacrosse, partly because they're smaller to begin with and aren't as nuts. Everything else is seeing shrinking #s due to the same kind of reactions in this thread.

[Pastashop]

I dunno. I am well past the stage of parenting for middle school or high school sports. I'd guess my guiding mantra for any of this is to support and do what your kids are interested in without regard to the end result other than as learning for them & enjoyment. Scholarships and all that jazz is great but if that's what the desired result is, then a parent who thinks that way is barking up the wrong tree. Money issues/pressures seen as a parent have no place spilling over into a kid's existence. Thete will be plenty of time for that post-HS years.

Organized K-12 sports is a sham. It distracts from the fact that Johnny/Janey can't read well or do math. Which is what the 99% of them need to enter into some form of responsible, wage-capable adult life. The 1% that will manage to earn a living at professional sports will be the only winners in this entire sham and scam. HaHa! Easy to cheer your kid on from the sidelines - that's a spectator sport! Helping them how & what to read, reason and tutor math - that's a participation sport! Not so easy.

Jeepers, all of sporting culture - just follow the money!

+1

Sport = Recreation. Sport = Fitness. Sport = Entertainment.
Sport ≠ Work (except for the *few* entertainers)

[Pastashop]

Most of the hamster wheel is just an industry there to serve itself, if you like it as a kid and the parents are willing and the $$ are there go for it. I'm young enough I was somewhat part of the modern hamster wheel for soccer as a kid and into high school. (It's gotten a lot crazier in the last 20 years) I took myself off when I was done in 11th grade.. I pretty much have 0 interest in soccer as an adult. The whole thing was a strange experience in retrospect.

A big part of the issue is the charade that it's about scholarships or going pro... it's not 1% that make it, it's far less than 1%, at least in the big sports.

Apparently the only youth sports that are actually expanding at this point are Hockey and Lacrosse, partly because they're smaller to begin with and aren't as nuts. Everything else is seeing shrinking #s due to the same kind of reactions in this thread.

Also +1.

The follow-on problem, as I see it, is that the Youth Sports Industrial Complex ("The Hamster Wheel") takes over many spaces / schedules / infrastructures / ways of doing things... sucks the oxygen out of the more traditional ways of playing that we got used to when growing up.

[pdmtong]

Youth sports, as a huge business, is driven largely by college scholarship opportunities and the dream of making it to pro. For boys, they are mostly sticks and balls, while for girls, because of Title IX, there are more variety. Triathlon is getting slowly introduced into NCAA as a full-ride scholarship sports, and there is a tidal wave of youth triathlon business about to come, just wait another year.

My 13-year old daughter is a year-round club swimmer since 7 and enjoys triathlon, FWIW. For her, doing triathlon adds more variety and she's now part of a tri team locally. And I can tell you this: these year-around swimmers have some threshold endurance. I can drop her on the flat, but as soon as the road tilts up, she just hamster the bike at 80-90rpm right pass me. The other day, we did a 40-mile loop with about 3000ft of climb, and we averaged over 17mph, and she passed me on every one of those >5% gradient climbs. Oh, she also ran under 6mm pace for 5Ks. And she's just one of several of these girls on her tri team.

Note for all us middle-age triathletes, you will be seeing a lot more of these super fast youth/junior in your local events soon.
I would love it if your daughter could motivate my daughter's leg speed. At age 9 she went up our benchmark 3.3/1800' climb, and 40/3000' is in her range but it will take a lot longer at 14mph plodding. I decided fine with me. At least she rides road, single track, races cx and does lift-assisted DH with me.

more importantly, is that bike and swim are sports she can love her entire life.

she has a huge engine, so I think her forte will be in ultra-distance (or not). I dont really care as long as she loves it and is fit.

[pdmtong]

A big part of the issue is the charade that it's about scholarships or going pro... it's not 1% that make it, it's far less than 1%, at least in the big sports.
very true but like any larger metro area, we have had a fair share of HS and collegiate make it. so that gives hope to too many. there are people from the local HS playing in the NFL, MLB, NBA....

couple of guys named brady and edelman on the patriots for instance, who played in the local public and catholic HS league...

[numbskull]

I have seen both sides of this.

I have three sons, now all grown. They all tracked their oldest brother into the soccer mill. For the oldest and the youngest this worked out great. They started early, excelled enough to build strong self esteem, were able to pick the college they desired (they also were excellent academically), played successfully through college, and continue to play as adults. The friends they made and lessons they learned have clearly helped them mature into well adjusted adults.

For the second son, however, it did not work out as well. Although talented in his own right (he demonstrated exceptional mathematical and musical talent as a child but would not pursue these since his brother played sports instead) he never could match his older brother. He was a star of his high school team but always a bench player on the regional elite teams and for 1 year on a division one college team. He quit the sport, drifted into low self-esteem, depression, and eventually self-medication and addiction. I blame myself for becoming too tied up in youth sports to not see this possible outcome.........but also for not pushing him towards activities (i.e., music) in which I think he would have excelled.

In retrospect, I think it is important to realize each of your children are different and may benefit from different parenting styles and family priorities. I also think it is in fact advisable to "push" your children (albeit gently and not stubbornly) to try things you sense they may excel at. Helping your child to find and excel at things for their own sake, rather than yours, is good parenting. Unfortunately learning to help constructively rather than critically or intensely is a difficult task that is beyond the ability of many of us. Keep that in mind.

[benb]

very true but like any larger metro area, we have had a fair share of HS and collegiate make it. so that gives hope to too many. there are people from the local HS playing in the NFL, MLB, NBA....

couple of guys named brady and edelman on the patriots for instance, who played in the local public and catholic HS league...

Yep.. I went to a crazy football HS... I went to school with at least one person almost everyone here would recognize the name of.

But you're talking about <5 people who went to the NFL in the 24 years since I started as a Freshman.. out of close to 100 every year playing on the HS football team. (Not sure but there are a huge # of people on a football team, it's actually pretty inclusive at the HS level in a smaller school.) And only one of those guys who made it to the NFL had a productive career there, the rest were out in a season or two without any success and/or with life changing injuries.

It's a lottery that costs a ton to play, albeit a fun price for a while.

[fuzzalow]

High school athletes consistently have higher GPAs than non-athletes.

Dunno where that statistic comes from, other than shooting from the hip.

The fact (real facts, not hip-shot facts) remains that among Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) countries, the United States ranks somewhere in the mid-teens for reading/math/science competencies. OECD nations are developed nations and represent both the US's trading partners and competitors. So our ability to compete globally rests with the competence and capacities of our educated citizenry. We, the USA, cannot and will not be able to compete at a level where our perpetually emergent work force is in the mid-teens among the global labor force/ human capital talent pool.

K-12 education ideally should have Job-One as education, not the distraction of sports which serves no useful function other than as entertainment. But it does serve as a distraction, both functionally and structurally, in a corrupt, dysfunctional K-12 public education system.

This whole thing has a bizarre symmetry to it:
K-12 public education on education turns out results (students) that cannot compete as equals with other students in the global competitive marketplace
K-12 public education on athletics turns out a failure rate of 99% of results (student athletes) that cannot compete as capable professional athletes to earn a living in athletics
My goodness, it light of those terrible results, maybe mid-teens math/reading/science isn't so bad after all! Because it still beats the failure rate of 99% that can't make a living at athletics. {JOKE! USA test scores should be an outrage.]

Leave football at the bigger high schools out of the picture and this statement is nonsense.
The average lacrosse player on my daughters teams have always been well above average students and at least in our community that's what I see in other sports as well, excepting maybe football.
Middle school and High school sports are about a lot more than just sports. Being part of a team, learning to accept coaching, instruction and criticism are all important parts of participating is sport.

My word, sir! Nonsense?! How brash a response. Well then I, sir, respond to your remark as balderdash!

All kidding aside, yes, there are those qualities like you listed to be learned too. But not if done at the expense of Job-One - which is education.

As an overall view, as we, the USA, has slid downwards in educational competence, so has our attention and involvement to extracurriculars and athletics risen.

Hey, this discussion is non-confrontational. We, as parents, make critical choices and decisions for our kids all their lives. The fact that you or I might choose a different way to get to an end result means little consequence to either of us. You go your way and I'll go mine.

[verticaldoug]

K-12 education ideally should have Job-One as education, not the distraction of sports which serves no useful function other than as entertainment. But it does serve as a distraction, both functionally and structurally, in a corrupt, dysfunctional K-12 public education system.


As an overall view, as we, the USA, has slid downwards in educational competence, so has our attention and involvement to extracurriculars and athletics risen.



In a society which is increasingly winner take all, this is exactly the type of system for education you'd expect. If you don't want a middle class, this is what you do. Rich and poor banana republic.

[djg]

I have had several conversations about kids (4+) doing triathlon club and now just read yet another club pushing indoor cycling for kids as young as 8 yrs old.

Now, I love cycling too and I find my trainer to be an incredible tool but I cannot think of any quicker way to kill a kids enthusiasm. Folks these are adult distractions.

So here's my PSA for the month:
In order to develop your future athletic star force them to go outside and play tag, play ball, make snowmen, bmx, ride a bike in the snow - not go to tri camp for 5 yr olds, do 'bricks' or indoor train.

That's nothing. We had our twins doing cage fighting before they could walk.

I mean, nobody got hurt, and I think the structure might have been called a playpen, but it was like a cage, and they bumped into each other a fair bit.

[pdonk]

While not perfect in terms of expectations of parents or kids, the LTAD model is an interesting read and good introduction to the mental and physiological maturity of children and how in a perfect athletic system they would progress.

http://canadiansportforlife.ca/learn-about-canadian-sport-life/ltad-stages

http://canadiansportforlife.ca/sites/default/files/user_files/images/CS4L%20Rectangle_EN_2015.jpg


The age groups being discussed here fall into bottom three components which are supposed to focus on fun and transferable skill development.

For an understanding of how this relates to cycling, both British Cycling and Cycling Canada have information available.

http://www.cyclingcanada.ca/development-programs/cycling-ltads/

[cfox]

Dunno where that statistic comes from, other than shooting from the hip.

The fact (real facts, not hip-shot facts) remains that among Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) countries, the United States ranks somewhere in the mid-teens for reading/math/science competencies. OECD nations are developed nations and represent both the US's trading partners and competitors. So our ability to compete globally rests with the competence and capacities of our educated citizenry. We, the USA, cannot and will not be able to compete at a level where our perpetually emergent work force is in the mid-teens among the global labor force/ human capital talent pool.

K-12 education ideally should have Job-One as education, not the distraction of sports which serves no useful function other than as entertainment. But it does serve as a distraction, both functionally and structurally, in a corrupt, dysfunctional K-12 public education system.

This whole thing has a bizarre symmetry to it:
K-12 public education on education turns out results (students) that cannot compete as equals with other students in the global competitive marketplace
K-12 public education on athletics turns out a failure rate of 99% of results (student athletes) that cannot compete as capable professional athletes to earn a living in athletics
My goodness, it light of those terrible results, maybe mid-teens math/reading/science isn't so bad after all! Because it still beats the failure rate of 99% that can't make a living at athletics. {JOKE! USA test scores should be an outrage.]


There are numerous studies backing up what I wrote. Your an adult, you can look it up yourself.

It's so perfect...you assume that I'm making stuff up, then follow that up with a silly, made up correlation between US academic performance and youth sports, when in fact the opposite is true. That's called old man logic: "something makes me mad so it must be the reason other bad things happen!!" So that's it, huh? No other reasons why the US lags, it's because of travel soccer.

[fuzzalow]

There are numerous studies backing up what I wrote. Your an adult, you can look it up yourself.

It's so perfect...you assume that I'm making stuff up, then follow that up with a silly, made up correlation between US academic performance and youth sports, when in fact the opposite is true. That's called old man logic: "something makes me mad so it must be the reason other bad things happen!!" So that's it, huh? No other reasons why the US lags, it's because of travel soccer.

Well, that was a hostile reaction. But you are welcome to respond in the manner and way that you best know how - that is perfectly fine with me.

I am not responsible for you making a reasonable or cogent argument or response in YOUR OWN post. I don't gotta look up nuthin' pal. Say anything you like. Remember, there are other people reading your posts too.

I attributed from where and what my response was based on. I am not mad at all in this discussion. It is a discussion on public policy pertaining to USA K-12 public education.

At this point, whatever on earth you are talking about, I don't know.

[gasman]

Ok, but if he asks for compression socks, I'm throwing him out of the house. :)

Aw let him use them for the swim-good training.

[cfox]

Well, that was a hostile reaction. But you are welcome to respond in the manner and way that you best know how - that is perfectly fine with me.

I am not responsible for you making a reasonable or cogent argument or response in YOUR OWN post. I don't gotta look up nuthin' pal. Say anything you like. Remember, there are other people reading your posts too.

I attributed from where and what my response was based on. I am not mad at all in this discussion. It is a discussion on public policy pertaining to USA K-12 public education.

At this point, whatever on earth you are talking about, I don't know.
You know exactly what I'm talking about. You assumed that I had made up statistics, I just pointed out that I hadn't made anything up. That, and since this a discussion board and not a term paper, I was not going to lengths to cite sources. Just pointing out the info is out there if you are so inclined to look for it. If you don't want "hostile" responses, maybe you shouldn't blithely accuse people of making things up.

[fuzzalow]

You know exactly what I'm talking about. You assumed that I had made up statistics, I just pointed out that I hadn't made anything up. That, and since this a discussion board and not a term paper, I was not going to lengths to cite sources. Just pointing out the info is out there if you are so inclined to look for it. If you don't want "hostile" responses, maybe you shouldn't blithely accuse people of making things up.

OK. Peace. Really. I have interesting, if spirited, discussions with you. As evidenced here. We are just talkin' here and that's fine with me.

The reason why I would think the statistic/research you cited was false is simply due to what I would think is a fundamental error in the numbers not adding up: If participation in sports is a causal factor to improved grades and participation in sports and other extracurricular activities has increased among the student population - then why is this general collateral improvement in academic achievement not reflected in the general test scores of reading/math/science competencies? This is just talk and not a demand for statistical validation!

Yeah, this is not a thesis, but we are talking as intelligent adults, right? So it's OK to mention what we read or remember about something somebody might have said about something, right? I know where the US ranks in the world edu and I cited what I read & remembered.

For me, school is where education is the priority. It's OK to do sports as long as it doesn't interfere with studies. And I believe if a student is sub-standard in reading/math/science then they should not take up time for sports that should be time spent studying. Simple as that.

But you already know the world is not as simple as that. No need to restate a policy position I already opined - so I will not drop the other shoe.

Nice talkin' to you. That's all for me on this one. See you at the next stop.

=======================

P.S. And BTW: As upset as you had become over my supposed transgressions:
If you don't want "hostile" responses, maybe you shouldn't blithely accuse people of making things up.

Be advised that all you rail about is contained in your response to me. The ad hominem you added in I took as your bonus to me.

It's so perfect...you assume that I'm making stuff up, then follow that up with a silly, made up correlation between US academic performance and youth sports, when in fact the opposite is true. That's called old man logic: "something makes me mad so it must be the reason other bad things happen!!" So that's it, huh? No other reasons why the US lags, it's because of travel soccer.

I was not the least bit upset by this attack. I can easily defend my inferences and conclusions in what I was talking to you about. And I am not in any way hypersensitive to being accused of "made up correlation" - because I believe I am in command of my facts. FWIW, I made a few correlations during the course of my posts.

This is not to take a dig at you but to point out our entire sidebar contretemps was not arguing the facts or opinions but centered to your response and perceived slight to the tone of the conversation. Which was completely immaterial to the topic at hand.

NBD - 'cos we were just talkin'.

[cfox]

Back on topic: Just because sports participation has increased (I don't know if it actually has, but I'll go with it) while test scores have dropped doesn't mean there is a causal relationship or any correlation at all. Many, many things have changed over the period of decline, why would sports top the list when studies have shown the opposite to be true? Who knows, maybe increased sports participation has slowed the decline brought upon by much bigger factors (demographics, income disparity, curriculum)? The amount of homework students are given has increased dramatically since I was a student, yet tests scores have still fallen relative to other countries. Can we conclude that more homework has led to the decline?

[93legendti]

"Myth: American test scores have fallen in the last 30 years.

Fact: American test scores have risen for all sub-groups.

Summary

The drop in average SAT scores is a statistical fluke. Thirty years ago, advantaged and over-achieving white students formed a disproportionate share of all those taking the test. Today, a growing share of minority and lower class whites are taking the test also, and they tend to score lower than advantaged whites. However, the scores of minorities have been rising over the last few decades, even faster than whites. Thus, everyone's scores are generally rising, even though the average is dropping.

Argument

Many critics of public education agree with the following statement by former Yale president Benno Schmidt:

"We have roughly doubled per-pupil spending (after inflation) in public schools since 1965 Yet high school students today are posting lower SAT scores than a generation ago. The nation's investment in educational improvement has produced very little return." (1)
At first glance, the numbers seem to support this assertion. Between 1972 and 1992, the combined math and verbal scores on the Scholastic Aptitude Test (SAT) fell from an average of 937 to 899. This drop occurred despite the fact that the U.S. doubled its per-pupil spending, from $2,611 to $5,521 (in 1990 dollars) between 1965 and 1990.

However, the drop in SAT scores is a statistical fluke called "Simpson's paradox." This occurs when everyone's measure is rising, but the average is dragged down by expanding the population at the base. To see how this works, consider the U.S. Baby Boom of the 1950s. The fact that the average age of Americans was declining in the 1950s did not mean that Americans were aging in reverse. On the contrary, it only meant that the birth rate was climbing relative to the death rate.

The same phenomenon has been at work in American SAT scores. Back in the 60s, middle and upper class white students formed a disproportionate share of all those taking the SAT. As the nation's most achieving students, they already posted high scores. Since the 1970s, however, a growing share of minorities and lower class whites have been taking the SAT as well. In 1972, minorities formed 13 percent of all SAT takers. In 1992, that number more than doubled to 29 percent. Unfortunately, minorities tend to score lower than the advantaged white students, and including them among the nation's test-takers has resulted in an average drop in SAT scores."
http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-sat.htm

[oldpotatoe]

I have seen both sides of this.

I have three sons, now all grown. They all tracked their oldest brother into the soccer mill. For the oldest and the youngest this worked out great. They started early, excelled enough to build strong self esteem, were able to pick the college they desired (they also were excellent academically), played successfully through college, and continue to play as adults. The friends they made and lessons they learned have clearly helped them mature into well adjusted adults.

For the second son, however, it did not work out as well. Although talented in his own right (he demonstrated exceptional mathematical and musical talent as a child but would not pursue these since his brother played sports instead) he never could match his older brother. He was a star of his high school team but always a bench player on the regional elite teams and for 1 year on a division one college team. He quit the sport, drifted into low self-esteem, depression, and eventually self-medication and addiction. I blame myself for becoming too tied up in youth sports to not see this possible outcome.........but also for not pushing him towards activities (i.e., music) in which I think he would have excelled.

In retrospect, I think it is important to realize each of your children are different and may benefit from different parenting styles and family priorities. I also think it is in fact advisable to "push" your children (albeit gently and not stubbornly) to try things you sense they may excel at. Helping your child to find and excel at things for their own sake, rather than yours, is good parenting. Unfortunately learning to help constructively rather than critically or intensely is a difficult task that is beyond the ability of many of us. Keep that in mind.

I hope your son is doing OK now. Parenting is the toughest job there is. Very best thoughts to you and to him.

[benb]

Guys sports participation has NOT increased. #s are down for all the major sports except for Lacrosse and Hockey, which are almost like cycling in that they have tiny #s so the increase doesn't mean as much.

Participation as a % of kids in a given school has dropped. Gym class has been eliminated, lots of recreational type leagues are history.

What we are bemoaning here is the creation of an "elite" system for a small minority of the kids whose parents are obsessed.

I happen to think sports are great for kids. But not the idea of a tiny group of the kids in a school participating in "elite" programs while everyone else doesn't participate.

[cfox]

Guys sports participation has NOT increased. #s are down for all the major sports except for Lacrosse and Hockey, which are almost like cycling in that they have tiny #s so the increase doesn't mean as much.

Participation as a % of kids in a given school has dropped. Gym class has been eliminated, lots of recreational type leagues are history.

What we are bemoaning here is the creation of an "elite" system for a small minority of the kids whose parents are obsessed.

I happen to think sports are great for kids. But not the idea of a tiny group of the kids in a school participating in "elite" programs while everyone else doesn't participate.

Spot on. What we are seeing in sports is the equivalent of well-off kids being tutored from pre-school onward in order to help their chances of getting into a top school. It has little to do with the love of the game or a genuine interest in a fulfilling education. It's a hyper-competitive, type A compulsion under the guise of giving kids every possible "advantage."

[Pastashop]

Well... The data are complex on the topic of academic performance of US students relative to those in other countries. Here's one take:

http://www.epi.org/publication/us-student-performance-testing/

But, like purchasing of compacts / hybrids is tied to current gas prices, current economic conditions and immediate perceptions of threat will drive the discussion and interpretation of data. In 2012, our economy wasn't in great shape, so we get:

https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/economy/report/2012/08/21/11983/the-competition-that-really-matters/

... That being said, a dearth of STEM proficient workers often foretells a slow down in the economy. Why?.. Well, because the job multipliers for high tech and manufacturing industries are large (larger than the service sector):

http://www.economicmodeling.com/2012/08/31/job-multipliers-silicon-valley-vs-the-motor-city/

And purchasing power / development opportunities are great for STEM-intensive enterprises:

http://www.oecd.org/sti/sci-tech/1913021.pdf

https://www.nms.org/Portals/0/Docs/Why%20Stem%20Education%20Matters.pdf

Some people appear to disagree that we have a shortage of highly qualified STEM people:

http://www.epi.org/publication/bp359-guestworkers-high-skill-labor-market-analysis/

... although even they say:
"The flow of guestworkers has increased over the past decade and continues to rise (the rate of increase dropped briefly with the economic collapse of 2008, but the flow of guestworkers has since continued its rapid upward pace)."

And we should be worried:

https://www.nsf.gov/nsb/news/news_summ.jsp?cntn_id=130380

But again, even what we call STEM has a nuanced nature:

http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/research/files/reports/2013/06/10-stem-economy-rothwell/thehiddenstemeconomy610.pdf

... anyhow, I'm picking up the STEM aspects, in part because studying and getting proficient in STEM requires training in procedural / non-intuitive thinking, which takes time and the right approach. If we (parents) are allocating more effort and time to the pursuit of stardom / high salary in professional sports with very low probability of success (an order of magnitude less than in STEM, if not two orders - 0.1% vs. 10% success, let's say), then we are making a dumb investment in our kids future.

That's not to say we should make our kids spend 12+ hrs a day on math and science, like they often do in Japan, Singapore, Korea... usually on rote memorization, instead of a mix of knowledge and creativity, which is more typical in US...

But like the ancients said, everything in moderation.

[malcolm]

Dunno where that statistic comes from, other than shooting from the hip.

The fact (real facts, not hip-shot facts) remains that among Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) countries, the United States ranks somewhere in the mid-teens for reading/math/science competencies. OECD nations are developed nations and represent both the US's trading partners and competitors. So our ability to compete globally rests with the competence and capacities of our educated citizenry. We, the USA, cannot and will not be able to compete at a level where our perpetually emergent work force is in the mid-teens among the global labor force/ human capital talent pool.

K-12 education ideally should have Job-One as education, not the distraction of sports which serves no useful function other than as entertainment. But it does serve as a distraction, both functionally and structurally, in a corrupt, dysfunctional K-12 public education system.

This whole thing has a bizarre symmetry to it:
K-12 public education on education turns out results (students) that cannot compete as equals with other students in the global competitive marketplace
K-12 public education on athletics turns out a failure rate of 99% of results (student athletes) that cannot compete as capable professional athletes to earn a living in athletics
My goodness, it light of those terrible results, maybe mid-teens math/reading/science isn't so bad after all! Because it still beats the failure rate of 99% that can't make a living at athletics. {JOKE! USA test scores should be an outrage.]



My word, sir! Nonsense?! How brash a response. Well then I, sir, respond to your remark as balderdash!

All kidding aside, yes, there are those qualities like you listed to be learned too. But not if done at the expense of Job-One - which is education.

As an overall view, as we, the USA, has slid downwards in educational competence, so has our attention and involvement to extracurriculars and athletics risen.

Hey, this discussion is non-confrontational. We, as parents, make critical choices and decisions for our kids all their lives. The fact that you or I might choose a different way to get to an end result means little consequence to either of us. You go your way and I'll go mine.

I agree with this balderdash completely. It's parents not sports that is the problem.
Organized sport is what we make of it. The little league mentality where the entire family is put on hold for a 9 year old's all star league is crazy, but that doesn't mean the sport is bad it's that particular system.

I speak from a position of privilege to some degree. My daughter will almost certainly attend college without the need of of a sports scholarship or really any scholarship. So academics are top priority, but so is life experience. We routinely miss a few days of school to travel or whatever if we both (parents) feel it's worthwhile.

My daughter plays lacrosse and has for 6 plus years. It's a growing sport in the south and we are starting to see some of the things you guys are describing with soccer and god forbid baseball and football.
She plays on a community based team and a tournament/travel team in the summer. Thus far the travel team is ok with missing tournaments for family trips etc.. Little league all stars around here at least won't let you play unless you can commit to the full schedule. When lacrosse gets to that point she'll just play community/school based lacrosse.

For instance this summer she has a spanish language class for a week in Costa Rica, then the following month a NOLS course in the tetons for two weeks so she'll miss most of the lacrosse tournaments but will likely play in the ones she is home for.

My whole point is there are valuable life lessons etc. readily available in sport especially team sport when approached properly. Most parents need to come to grips with the fact that their kid will never earn a dime from sport but that shouldn't be the point.

I'll also add that most studies I've seen and I've seen a few that were pretty compelling that compared the US to other countries academically especially math and science almost all agree that the primary reason for the US trailing is contact hours and and the summer off school year. Most of the top rated math and science countries go to school year round and overall have considerably more contact hours. The long summer break we have has been shown to be detrimental and interestingly impacts the economically disadvantaged the most.

[Pastashop]

...
I'll also add that most studies I've seen and I've seen a few that were pretty compelling that compared the US to other countries academically especially math and science almost all agree that the primary reason for the US trailing is contact hours and and the summer off school year. Most of the top rated math and science countries go to school year round and overall have considerably more contact hours. The long summer break we have has been shown to be detrimental and interestingly impacts the economically disadvantaged the most.


Yes!.. Unless we fill it with internships / apprenticeships, which is basically impossible for grades up to ~8.

[dalava]

I would love it if your daughter could motivate my daughter's leg speed. At age 9 she went up our benchmark 3.3/1800' climb, and 40/3000' is in her range but it will take a lot longer at 14mph plodding. I decided fine with me. At least she rides road, single track, races cx and does lift-assisted DH with me.

more importantly, is that bike and swim are sports she can love her entire life.

she has a huge engine, so I think her forte will be in ultra-distance (or not). I dont really care as long as she loves it and is fit.

I've been very careful not to push her, and that's what joining a team was really important for her; she now has friends that they can go ride, chat, and hang out afterwards as part of their social activities. Seeing these 12-15 year-olds slowly passing you on climbs, however, is quite depressing. Worse still, they are only going to get faster, and we are only getting slower.

[cfox]

Yes!.. Unless we fill it with internships / apprenticeships, which is basically impossible for grades up to ~8.

They had some terrific apprenticeships for grade school kids at the Lowell textile mills back in the day. All kidding aside, I have no interest in my kids becoming robots that spend every waking minute preparing for adulthood. As we speak, there is some miserable, stressed out kid in China who is better than my kid in math, and I guess I'm okay with that. I guess that's a crappy attitude, but honestly, for how long have we been decrying our relative academic performance? Since I was a kid, at least. And how has our economy fared vs. Japan, for an example, in that same time frame?

Anecdote: my business partner won a huge regional math contest as a child in China (he's like, wicked smart). Soon after, his parents went to incredible lengths to send him to the U.S. to go to school.

[malcolm]

They had some terrific apprenticeships for grade school kids at the Lowell textile mills back in the day. All kidding aside, I have no interest in my kids becoming robots that spend every waking minute preparing for adulthood. As we speak, there is some miserable, stressed out kid in China who is better than my kid in math, and I guess I'm okay with that. I guess that's a crappy attitude, but honestly, for how long have we been decrying our relative academic performance? Since I was a kid, at least. And how has our economy fared vs. Japan, for an example, in that same time frame?

Anecdote: my business partner won a huge regional math contest as a child in China (he's like, wicked smart). Soon after, his parents went to incredible lengths to send him to the U.S. to go to school.

Like all things it's a happy medium. I do think the argument for year round school is pretty unequivocal.
My daughter, first year in high schools has friends that basically only do school and study. Preparing for college is a full time job with overtime. They never do sleep overs school trips or any of that stuff it's all academics all the time.
That's as bad as the crazy sports parents. They'll have all As and acceptance to an ivy league school but will likely be completely dysfunctional adults.

[verticaldoug]

Like all things it's a happy medium. I do think the argument for year round school is pretty unequivocal.
My daughter, first year in high schools has friends that basically only do school and study. Preparing for college is a full time job with overtime. They never do sleep overs school trips or any of that stuff it's all academics all the time.
That's as bad as the crazy sports parents. They'll have all As and acceptance to an ivy league school but will likely be completely dysfunctional adults.

All A's and 2400 on your SAT probably means you have a 50/50 chance at Harvard unless you bring other attributes the school wants (sport, music, demographic, legacy, etc). If you are in a school with many legacies and sport commits, you will probably get shut out regardless of your own record. I've seen it happen.

In Japan, I saw the students going to JUKU 24/7. It was relentless in cramming for the exam. As a grad student, many of my friends had spend 1,2 years as a RONIN (PG equivalent here) trying to pass the entrance exams for TODAI. It gets brutal. Somehow, everyone ended up a chain smoker and mahjong addict.

[malcolm]

I know the requirements to get in the ivy league and was using that term to support a point.
There was an interesting article I think in NY times written by someone that had been on the admissions board at yale or princeton and their take was that all this focus on prepping for admission, stellar academics and doing all the right things for all the wrong reasons produced automatons with no capacity for creative thought. Great article, and all opinion, but if I get a chance to google it up I'll post it.

[verticaldoug]

I know the requirements to get in the ivy league and was using that term to support a point.
There was an interesting article I think in NY times written by someone that had been on the admissions board at yale or princeton and their take was that all this focus on prepping for admission, stellar academics and doing all the right things for all the wrong reasons produced automatons with no capacity for creative thought. Great article, and all opinion, but if I get a chance to google it up I'll post it.

It is more risk aversion than no capacity for creative thought. Why show your real opinion when you can just recite something from memory which is safe? Odds are the admissions board just wants to be lazy and find a way to ding you versus another candidate. The penalty for a creative wrong answer is much higher than a safe boring one. The real scary part is this leads to not questioning or rebelling against authority (establishment). Same thing happens in China, Japan, Korea

[malcolm]

It is more risk aversion than no capacity for creative thought. Why show your real opinion when you can just recite something from memory which is safe? Odds are the admissions board just wants to be lazy and find a way to ding you versus another candidate. The penalty for a creative wrong answer is much higher than a safe boring one. The real scary part is this leads to not questioning or rebelling against authority (establishment). Same thing happens in China, Japan, Korea

I agree somewhat. I can only speak from the medical school end of things and I don't think the admissions boards look to ding you. While I never served on admissions to school, I did with residency and my wife has done both for years. The problem with med students is there is so many of them, they all have great grades and test scores and you decide who to interview without having ever actually met them most of the time. Once interviewed and being discussed they do consider and give weight to things outside the norm. I agree when you go non traditional you risk disaster vs a home run.
I remember many years ago a kid my wife told me about who instead of writing a personal statement like all medical students have to he wrote a story. Most people on the committee were blow away but a few didn't really care for it. Long story short he got a spot. Finished school and wound up doing a residency there where my wife was his program director. When he was nearing the end of residency and thinking of fellowship she advised him to go away do his fellowship and maybe work a little and then come back if he still wanted to (he had initially wanted to stay there). Well fast forward many years, wife is now chair and interviewing a young potential faculty she thought she recognized. During the interview he told her he took her advice, she still hadn't put two and two together until he related the story. Well she was so impressed or maybe flattered that she basically created a spot for him. He is now one of her young stars.

It's a crappy system but you have to have something to try and separate them

[dalava]

They had some terrific apprenticeships for grade school kids at the Lowell textile mills back in the day. All kidding aside, I have no interest in my kids becoming robots that spend every waking minute preparing for adulthood. As we speak, there is some miserable, stressed out kid in China who is better than my kid in math, and I guess I'm okay with that. I guess that's a crappy attitude, but honestly, for how long have we been decrying our relative academic performance? Since I was a kid, at least. And how has our economy fared vs. Japan, for an example, in that same time frame?

Anecdote: my business partner won a huge regional math contest as a child in China (he's like, wicked smart). Soon after, his parents went to incredible lengths to send him to the U.S. to go to school.

Because we got a lot of these smarts kids from China (and other countries before that). It's a self-selection process, we get not only the smart kidsbut also ambitious and adventurous enough to come to the US. Just wait when they stop coming, that's when we will be in trouble, but I guess there is always the "next" China waiting in the wings.

[malcolm]

Because we got a lot of these smarts kids from China (and other countries before that). It's a self-selection process, we get not only the smart kidsbut also ambitious and adventurous enough to come to the US. Just wait when they stop coming, that's when we will be in trouble, but I guess there is always the "next" China waiting in the wings.

Do you think kids from China or inherently smarter than American kids or did they just spend more time at it/work harder?

[djg]

"Myth: American test scores have fallen in the last 30 years.

Fact: American test scores have risen for all sub-groups.

Summary

The drop in average SAT scores is a statistical fluke. Thirty years ago, advantaged and over-achieving white students formed a disproportionate share of all those taking the test. Today, a growing share of minority and lower class whites are taking the test also, and they tend to score lower than advantaged whites. However, the scores of minorities have been rising over the last few decades, even faster than whites. Thus, everyone's scores are generally rising, even though the average is dropping.

Argument

Many critics of public education agree with the following statement by former Yale president Benno Schmidt:

"We have roughly doubled per-pupil spending (after inflation) in public schools since 1965 Yet high school students today are posting lower SAT scores than a generation ago. The nation's investment in educational improvement has produced very little return." (1)
At first glance, the numbers seem to support this assertion. Between 1972 and 1992, the combined math and verbal scores on the Scholastic Aptitude Test (SAT) fell from an average of 937 to 899. This drop occurred despite the fact that the U.S. doubled its per-pupil spending, from $2,611 to $5,521 (in 1990 dollars) between 1965 and 1990.

However, the drop in SAT scores is a statistical fluke called "Simpson's paradox." This occurs when everyone's measure is rising, but the average is dragged down by expanding the population at the base. To see how this works, consider the U.S. Baby Boom of the 1950s. The fact that the average age of Americans was declining in the 1950s did not mean that Americans were aging in reverse. On the contrary, it only meant that the birth rate was climbing relative to the death rate.

The same phenomenon has been at work in American SAT scores. Back in the 60s, middle and upper class white students formed a disproportionate share of all those taking the SAT. As the nation's most achieving students, they already posted high scores. Since the 1970s, however, a growing share of minorities and lower class whites have been taking the SAT as well. In 1972, minorities formed 13 percent of all SAT takers. In 1992, that number more than doubled to 29 percent. Unfortunately, minorities tend to score lower than the advantaged white students, and including them among the nation's test-takers has resulted in an average drop in SAT scores."
http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-sat.htm

Maybe that's all right -- I'm not arguing that it's wrong or impertinent -- but let's keep in mind that this is not like measuring a change in the mean or median height -- neither the SAT nor the scoring of the SAT is a physical constant or theoretically well defined and stable in its particulars. It's no secret that the format, content, and scoring of the test have changed in the past 30 years. There's the question what is (or what factors are) driving a change in average or median scores, or the distribution of scores, there's the question what, if anything in particular, a given score in a given year means, and there's the question whether a given score means more-or-less the same thing across the decades.

My eldest kid did well in 2014, so I'd like to think that her scores were clear, objective measures of both her brilliance and the excellence of her education and up-bringing, but . . . well, she is very bright and we've done our best, but I'm not so sure about inferences from the test scores that I ought or ought not to make. And, of course, whatever inferences the tests might suggest, I've got no particular conviction that those same scores would have suggested just the same inferences in 2004 or 1984.

[deechee]

In Japan, I saw the students going to JUKU 24/7. It was relentless in cramming for the exam. As a grad student, many of my friends had spend 1,2 years as a RONIN (PG equivalent here) trying to pass the entrance exams for TODAI. It gets brutal. Somehow, everyone ended up a chain smoker and mahjong addict.

Really? If the kids are actually aiming for Todai, they have to be pretty ambitious. Let's not forget that once the kids in Japan pass their entrance exams, university is a joke unlike here.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51+7bZAtZFL._AA160_.jpg

[verticaldoug]

Because we got a lot of these smarts kids from China (and other countries before that). It's a self-selection process, we get not only the smart kidsbut also ambitious and adventurous enough to come to the US. Just wait when they stop coming, that's when we will be in trouble, but I guess there is always the "next" China waiting in the wings.

For Real GDP Growth per capita Japan vs US is essentially flat for the last 15 years. The difference is US Population has continued to grow. Growing population, growing GDP.

If you look at US Median wage growth over an extended period, the line is essential flat. All the gains accrue in the top half of the distribution.

[dalava]

Do you think kids from China or inherently smarter than American kids or did they just spend more time at it/work harder?

Generally speaking, I don't think the kids in China are any smarter purely from intelligence standpoint. There are cultural difference which explains the hard work vs creativity dichotomy.

The kids that come to the US to study and be able to survive and find a job and then stay, however, are the cream of the crop and they are probably much smarter than your average US college graduates.

[deechee]

The kids that come to the US to study and be able to survive and find a job and then stay, however, are the cream of the crop and they are probably much smarter than your average US college graduates.

for smart kids, the census (https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publications/2015/demo/p60-252.pdf)indicates 10.1% of the white population is below poverty and asians... 12.0%.

[MadRocketSci]

ha...the chinese, give me a break. when i was in fancy engineering grad school it was the kids from the various IIT's (Indian Institute of Technology) that were the scary (smart, well-versed, whatever, they came ready to pass quals) ones....