What really happened???

[shinomaster]

Ok, I have wanted to ask this for quite a while...so now I am.
What happened to the Old Forum? In the Letter Ben Serotta wrote to us all he stated that other bike builders and companies were essentially using the Forum to sabatoge Serotta. I am being very sincere when I ask, when did this happen? Does he mean the occasional appearance of Richard Sachs, Sacha White, and Dave Kirk? Me the Cannondale master plugging my Beer can in jest ? The Jerk for telling us to buy a Big legg emma? I just don't understand..
Also when we agreed to the terms of the new forum we agreed that this is a venue for chit chat about serotta bicycles only. Does that mean that we can not chat about other bicycles? Can I talk about my cannondale anymore? My new Taiwanese cross bike? Can Dnovo speak of his fleet of favorites? And DBRK of his new Carbon Hampsten?
I am truly being sincere when I ask these questions. I mean not to stir up trouble. I just don't want to get kicked off for writing about my Fuji , or if I choose to berate my poor helpless Atlanta.
I completely understand that Mr. Serotta would like us all to be speaking of the virtues of Serotta bicycles, as this is the Serotta Forum after all. I just worry that this will get dull for everyone if all we can do here is pat ourselves on the back for being Serotta owners and discuss, Campy. vs. shimano and Mavic wheels vs. Bontrager etc...
Am I the only one here who wonders about these things?

sincerely,

Shinomaster:beer: :beer: :beer: :beer:

[Kevin]

Shinomaster,

I am just as curious as you. Perhaps we can plan a ride to Saratgoga and take Ben out for a few drinks. If we get him drunk perhaps he will tell us.

All kidding aside, does anyone know the underlying facts? If so, we all want to know.

Kevin

[rnhood]

Some good questions here. There were candid opinions on Serotta bikes as well as other bikes but I don't remember seeing comments that I would consider denigrating or sabotage or with malice. But I did not read everything so this is only from my point of view.

I also understand that there were some posters who would use the forum to talk up, or point to products that they were selling on ebay. Now I don't consider this to be ethical so, if it was happening then I understand some of Ben's comments.

I am getting used to the new forum now. At first I did not like it as much as the old forum but I must admit it does a reasonably good job of discouraging the endless wayward posting that was occurring on some threads. Far too many times threads just took off into left field with virtually no insightful merit. This current forum better promotes sticking to the point, allowing one to make a point then move on. No sense in debating it to death.

But what the heck, bikes don't have rear view mirrors so it is only what's ahead that counts. Bye-bye yesterday.

:bike:

[Smiley]

For members to try to discredit or otherwise intentionally steer others away from Serotta products.

I think the above is one of the Golden Rules, If you don't think that was happening before on the old phorum you must have not read all the posts I did. Several times inquiring clients would drop in and say what do you think about a C-III as an example and Bang someone would say your crazy for $300 bucks cheaper you can buy a xyz brand bike. Potential clients of Serotta do read reviews of Serotta products on these boards, its not fair for the Serotta dealers to deal with this type of negative selling from these boards that are supported by Serotta. So yes this would have been my rub if I was Ben or one of the many employee's of Serotta. I think one can post reviews of the C-dales or other brand bikes but there are nice ways to make comparisons of products. Hor's Categorie bicycle, the best bike on the planet , there let them ban me now. Captain Smiley

[saab2000]

...and I totally respect the wishes of the powers that be to promote their own brand. After all, the forum is paid for by Serotta.

I also must say that I totally respect Serotta and see them in a very positive light because they are willing to put their product up against any other in an open forum. I think that talk of other brands is legit here. I do not own a Serotta, but since I started lurking here I have thought that having one would be pretty cool.

For Ben Serotta to consider his bikes good enough that he does not ban talk of other brands is pretty strong confidence in his own machines.

I am not sure that the old forum was put to rest because of the occasional promotion of other brands (though that may have been a big thing) but rather because of a lack of decorum and lack of civility which had crept in. There were some pretty nasty things being said and that is something which Serotta would like to distance himself from. Understandable.


The fact that this is an "open" forum and the participants do not need to be Serotta owners says a lot about how Ben Serotta sees his bikes in the grand scheme of Bike-dom. He makes no excuses and no apologies for what he makes. Not all other manufacturers have such confidence.

I never saw the occasional post by other builders as self-promotion, rather I saw them as participating in something we all love - great bikes.

I hope the new forum is successful and remains civil! Personally, I also hope that the other builders remain participants.

[Keith A]

Saab2000 -- well said!

[dnovo]

Very nicely put, saab2000.

I question the need to pull off the scab and post-mortem why the prior forum ended. Does it really matter in light of the fact that we are here, there are 300+ members including virtually all of the most contributing, 1000+ posts in a little more than a week and with COMPLETE CIVILITY!!

Moreover, Gary/Kahuna has now restructured and reopened his forums in a different but potentially outstanding format, and has made our older posts available as an archive. He deserves our gratitude for doing that and our support and partcipation in these new groups.

But the heart of the 'why' -- if we really need to engage in opening the wounds, is lack of civility and trolling. Read Gary's comments introducing his new forums as well as the parameters for this group. Free expression, but no more lack of civility. No more trolling. (But, with those #$%&*#@ 'Dancing Bananas et al.)

I say: Thanks Gary and Ben!

Let us do the traditional thing here. The 'King' is dead, Long live the 'King.' Support and nuture the new and savor what is best in the archive of the past. Move on with the new format and help it live and remain healthy.

Dave N.

[JohnS]

Maybe they knew the origin of all those "why buy a Serotta when a Seven is just as good and several hundred dollars cheaper" posts. Just a guess...

[Climb01742]

my take is just slightly different. moving forward, perhaps when talking about various bikes, if the discussion is about how the bikes are "different" as opposed to "better" we would bypass certain pitfalls. personally, i've learned a huge amount on the old/new phorum. and so much of it has come from discussions of various bikes. their pro's and con's. perhaps ben objected when discussions turned to advocacy. but i would miss enormously dnovo's reviews, or the jerk's opinions, or dbrk's treatises. (a shrink once made a very insightful distinction to me. he said, when looking at your life, think more in terms of "could" rather than "should". like, this event or action "could" happen, rather than it "should" happen. could leads more easily to peace. should leads more often to sadness or anger or disappointment.) which perhaps relates to discussions of various bikes here. you could consider this frame versus you should consider it. discussion, not advocacy.

that said, however, i'm not sure that taken in total, the old forum was in any way bad for serotta. (yes, the trolls and nastiness were awful and wrong, and we are far better off without them.) but i think most of us like ben for the bikes he makes and the company he runs. the brave, unfettered openness of the old forum spoke volumes for the man ben is and the company he runs. in the free-for-all, hurly-burly of an open marketplace, ben's bikes still came out shining, i think. but maybe the man and his company came out shining even more. i respect the openness of the forum. and the values of a company that would let their products stand the tests of barbs and criticism. sticks and stones never made the ottrott any less of an achievement, or a CIII, or a CSi. as a marketing tool, the old/new forum is better advertising than any serotta could create. i know i feel more connected to the brand now that i am a member of this phorum than i ever could without it. in that sense, it works wonders for the company.

[Kurt]

It was slander by the trolls directed at one or more individuals. Ben will put up with quite a bit, but never insults directed at customers.

[shinomaster]

Dnovo you misunderstand. I mean not to pick at month old scabs in an attempt to activate month old puss. I am simply trying to figure out why our old phorum self-destructed. I loved the old Phorum.
Originally I thought the Phorum was cancelled because of the incident with you and the troll who loved you so. But Ben Serotta stated otherwise. I am simply trying to understand what is "proper" behavior on ths new forum. In the new user agreement it says this is a place for the discussion of Serotta bicycles and products, and a place for bike riders to chat about Serotta concerns, and possible new bikes. It seemed that Ben Serotta is not interested in this group talking up other brands. That is fine with me as this is the SEROTTA owners forum. I can certainly respect that. I just don't wast to piss him off by speaking of my Fuji. Honestly. I want to know if it is OK to speak of other bikes here as others already have. I earnestly follow rules if presented with them. I am a model citizen in real life.
The old Phorum failed because many of us made mistakes. Not just me, or the TROLLS. It was an accumulated effect and I'm truly surprised it did not happen sooner. Ben Serotta put up with a lot of BULL ****, and for that I respect him quite a lot.
How are we to learn from our mistakes if we don't know what they were? I'm serious!! Is e-bay promotion a reason? How can we have a custom image gallery if it's not cool to speak of custom bikes? Or is it just fine? I just want to know all the rules so I understand when they are being broken.


Shinomaster

:banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:

[oracle]

: shinomaster : you ask questions of which a sage would be proud.


:beer: :beer: :beer:
:banana: :banana: :banana:
(frustrated sage) :crap:

the oracle

[sellsworth]

It's interesting to note that as of Dec. 18 at 10:15 PM PST the top ten posters have contributed 487 out of 1199 posts (40.6%). I'm not sure how this compares to the old phorum but it seems to me that this new forum is dominated by relatively few individuals. I was attracted to the old phorum because of its free and open nature - it was a great mix of bicycle discussion, humor, and sarcasm. So far the this new forum has been, well, not so interesting. Maybe it just needs some time to mature. I agree with shinomaster that the boundries of this forum are not well defined. To me, my interest in bikes blends with the rest of my life and I'm very political - so I'm interested in the threads that stray a bit from bikes and plunge into controversy.

[shinomaster]

Most of the posts on the old Phorum were by a handful if individuals, myself included. I often got into trouble by mixing politics with bikes, I have decided that this is probably not the best place for that joyful combination. See "Curious George needs a bike" in the archives for some mean nasty fun..
I think people have been cautious, not wanting to be the first to rock the boat. Civility is much better than barbarism in my opinion, so I just happy to be here..

Shino the Barbarian and Scholar:fight: :fight: :fight: :fight: :fight: :banana:

[oracle]

:fight: :banana: DARTH: obi-wan never told you what happened to your father...LUKE: he told me enough.... he told me you killed him! DARTH: no..... i am your father LUKE: NO! thats not true! thats impossible!


the oracle:confused: :) :beer: :banana:

[dnovo]

Shino says "Civility is much better than barbarism in my opinion, so I just happy to be here.."

Sellsworht says "To me, my interest in bikes blends with the rest of my life and I'm very political - so I'm interested in the threads that stray a bit from bikes and plunge into controversy."

May I suggest that there are many forums where politics and controversy are the basic subjects, and a relative few where bicycles are the subject. If civility is required but that hinders controversy and espcially politics, then I submit that I would prefer civility to keep this bicycle forum free flowing and that there are other arenas for political discussion.

But controversy between rational individuals is not and has never been an issue, nor was it on the 'old' forum. Controversy and even political discussions.flow best through reasoned discourse and between individuals who are honestly trying to make a point. A troll, by definition, has no intent other than to stir up by making a controversial statement and cause conflict, not invoke reasoned discourse.

In the hiatus between forums, there was some comments from outside groups that the only real surprise at the then-demise of this group was that it had lasted as long as it did and was so vital given the lack of moderation. The general view was that, as many other forums, an intense flurry of trolling had finally caused the apparent collapse.

I feel the restructure to eliminate this problem, and the focus not on censorship but civility is a positive and share Shino's view. As for controversy and politics, we will always have Fox News and Al Franken.

Dave N. (yes, Shino, I did it. I killed the old group. I have a car I drive around with the list of my kills painted on the side, just like a WWII ace. The Ice Age, The Dinosaurs, the Titanic, the Roman Empire, Eight Track Tapes, and now the Forum. And, if you guys keep up the moving beer steins, dancing bananas, I'm gonna come hunt you down too, Shino, and paint your shillouette on my fender :D )

[flydhest]

dnovo,

On the other hand, if you take Ben's statement at face value (which, with Ben I always do, he's just that type of guy) it wasn't simply the trolling, however important that may have been. The trolling was clearly malicious.

However, the denigration of Serotta products was far from rare and this, too, was part of the explanation.

While I post often, and am glad the forum exists (this is the third incarnation I have participated in), it does lack a bit of its vitality. I'm by no means suggesting that the tradeoff is a poor one, though.

[Richard]

I, like fly, have participated in two (or is it three) prior iterations of this forum. I would post sporadically, on subjects that interested me, or in subjects where I felt I had input that counted (purely personal analysis, I know). So far, I have found this to be the only thread worth participating in -- I liked the politics, the sometimes heated exchanges. They made the forum different from the norm and I, for one, miss that dialogue. It'a a shame when dialogue/controversey degenerates to infantile namecalling, but it happens off the internet, too. I hope that the input becomes spicier before I give up. At this point, I miss the old. Oh well, to each his own.

[bulliedawg]

What's interesting to me about the old forum is that when someone denegrated Serotta products, Serotta was always vehemently defended. At least that's my recollection.

If I were Serotta, I would have taken heart that its owners were so quick to defend it. They basically had a "peasant" Army doing its bidding for them. Perhaps that's the realization that caused them to reconsider.

sic'em

[shinomaster]

Bullidawg is correct. Serotta was always fanatically defended by the many happy Serotta owners on this forum, a testament to Serotta. And Dnovo, why woould you choose to Kill the Romans? Or the Serotta Phorum? My nose is distinctive..make sure you paint it on your fender!!

Barbar...not from Greece??:banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:

[Sandy]

I believe Super Smart Shino asked an excellent question to start the thread. There was, and is, no place on this forum for individuals whose sole purpose is to incite, instigate, and perpetuate hurtful personal attacks on certain individuals. These were cowardly and immature acts that were almost universally understood to be totally non-acceptable. Such attacks simply no longer exist on the forum and that is simply wonderful. On the otherhand, it is obvious that posters or those thinking about posting, and refraining from doing so, are being overly careful in not expressing themselves in any manner that might not be acceptable to Serotta and fellow contributors. This is undoubtedly a function of respect for Ben Serotta and other members, understanding that the previous forum had inherent problems, and the knowledge that the forum was once stopped, and that simply was not acceptable to too many fine folk, since the forum was a great source of knowledge, friendships, fun, humor, and a place to communicate to others in the individual's unique manner.

Perhaps the forum now lacks balance in that it is now weighted so much towards respect and civility that individuals are simply afraid to bring up certain topics and even more afraid in ever criticizing Serotta in any possible manner, as then they would be admonished for their criticism. It is not real clear as to what topics are to be discussed and how far from bicycle topics and the Serotta bicycle in particular, may be discussed, and that does really put an artificial control on what is said within the forum. I personally belive that we need a better balance in what is being discussed within the forum, as it is perhaps almost too staid and squeaky clean. There is certainly a place for disagreement, exhanges given with respect for fellow contributors, humor, and posts and threads which may not be totally related to Serotta bicycles. I know that I certainly was critical of Serotta's changing attitude towards my beloved CSi and Serotta's lack of clear articulation of such. Was I wrong in expressing my unhappiness of it? Certainly that type of message is not being conveyed to Serotta now, nor are comparisons of Serotta products to other products being made as we all are trying so hard to respect Ben Serotta, Serotta the company, and simply not rock the boat. I believe we all lose something now in the lack of balance that exists in the forum today. The forum today is vastly better than right before it was temporarily suspended, but it is lacking in the vitality and energy which existed before, since we all are afraid to say or do the wrong thing. Now we need a better balance and I believe that will happen, if we are not too afraid to upset the apple cart just a little, ALWAYS remembering to have a basic respect for fellow contributors and Serotta. Sorry for so few paragraphs, but I still am having problems posting here. Sandy

[Sandy]

:banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: Long live the dancing bananas. If you tire of the banana, peel it, eat the inside, throw away the peel, ride faster, longer, and stronger because of it, and then feel very, very guilty for what you did to it.:banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:

[Kevin]

Sincere Sandy in Search of Some Spice,

While I praise your statements on what has happened to the forum. I must insist that you stop posting those damn bananas. Every time I see them I start shooting my computer monitor like Elvis did with televisions. I have thrown out 423 monitors in the last 24 hours. If this keeps up, I will be out of money and will not be able to honor my Topolino guarantee.

Kevin

[dnovo]

Shino-- I really didn't want to scrag the Roman Empire. It was just one of those dinner parties that got out of hand. You know how it goes, invite over a couple of hoards or two, eat a little pasta, drink a little vino, a little more pasta, a little more vino, a little more vino, a WHOLE LOT OF VINO, and then A REAL LOT OF WHOLE LOT OF VINO, and the next thing you know bang!

That's what happened, after the last round of vino, from what our wives all told us the next day, we all jumped up, singing in a loud voice, jumped on our horses, and were off to sweep down on the Roman Empire off to the East of the Barbarian West, looting, pillaging, raping, burning (first rule of Barbarian hordes, first loot, pillage, and rape, THEN burn -- keep things in that order and it goes a lot better!) and the next thing you know, the Roman Empire was gone.

If it makes you feel any better, we all had a terrible hangover the next day and felt REAL bad about it. Didn't give any of the loot back, even though our wives said it was the neighborly thing to do, but I guess being a Barbarian means never having to say you are sorry.

Yeah, I heard the same rumor about me and the old forum. Guess the old 'barbarian hoard' myth must be true there too?

Hey, you know how it is with us barbarians, a couple of trolls get my home email link through the board, start sending me really scummy and nasty personal emails and altered copies of some of my photos -- including the one of me that I was silly enough to post so you could see what I looked like and that was redone in a way too disgusting to describe here-- which gets sent to the house where my wife has access to our computer.

Since I can't screen every email that comes in, and that is what is suggested to me at first and then I get upset since our 'moderator' won't allow me to contact him to have my email link removed so my wife doesn't have to call me at the office crying, and as I don't want crank calls from the same clowns at my office (who found my office website and called to be 'funny') yep, I go 'barbarian' and take the radical step of pulling off my pictures and say 'goodbye.' Next thing you know, BANG, the whole Serotta Empire (sorry, I mean the forum) falls.

Shino, my friend, and I mean that very sincerely, not even close. No, didn't threaten anyone. No, didn't scream 'shut it down or the Barbarian hoards sweep in from the West' (well, Chicago/Wisconsin). No, simply said, when Gary was not available, 'can you guys take my email link out of the profile.'

Is Ben leary of this 'barbarian?' Don't think so, since yesterday, he and I were discussing an old 7-11 Team bike I am trying to buy from a friend and we had a nice discussion about bikes, weather, etc. Did this 'barbarian' chortle when the 'empire fell?' Hardly, as the 'core' people know, as many of the 'citizens' were in touch almost at once, and I circulated a message regarding a couple talks I had with Ben while the forum was being restructured and urged all of them to contact him to help get things back up and running. Many of us offered very constructive ideas, and several folks started temporary groups to keep the flame burning.

No Shino, I didn't kill it. You didn't kill it by your posts. "Fictional" characters like AE with his occasional shots at me or others, but at least not lewd or stupid comments didn't kill it. I dare say that the comments of Sandy and this old barbarian bemoaning the de-emphasis on the CSi didn't kill it either.

Nothing 'killed' it. The trolling got out of hand and finally went completely over the top. (And Shino, send me a private note, and I will send you a copy of the frantic note I got from "Peter North" when he realized that I was fed up and was going to go after him off-forum for some of his private stuff. If you or anyone else thinks he had anything intent other than to stir up trouble by his postings or think 'trolling' has some value, reading his note will change that rather quickly.) Putting all the garbage in the BASEMENT was not a great idea as it simply encouraged trolls to try to do a 'can you top this' and indeed several notes boasted of 'setting records' for getting exiled there.

My take, and just my personal view, and not based on any statements from Ben or anyone else? The forum was attached to Ben's business site. It contained comments unfavorable to Serotta products, but also defending and rebutting those same attacks. No need to shut it down for that. It always had a few trolls. Also no need to shut it down for that.

But, when the stuff got clearly over the top, with comments that were 'smutty' at best, and then got far worse and started to predominate over anything having to do with bikes, Ben wisely decided that allowing those to remain up and highlighted called for an overhaul and a restructure -- which is what happened and something that was done in a very short time.

So here we are. 300+ members and over 1000 posts in a very short time, and with no trolls, and --yes -- several posts having NOTHING to do with Serotta products. No censorship.

No death, Shino, simply someone who went to the Doctor, got some treatment, and emerged fit, rested and running well.

That's the view of this barbarian, speaking ex catherda from his navel, and without anything to base it on but his senile powers of reasoning. And I still agree with Sandy, they should NEVER has de-emphasised the CSi nor is their steel fork worth half of what they are charging for it.

And no, don't want your nose painted on my fender. Out of paint and too cold here today anyhow.

Dave N.

[keno]

Marshall McCluhan coined the expression "the medium is the message" decades ago. I think that it has some relevance here.

While there are aspects of the technical design of this forum not available in the prior forum that I find useful, I also find that, overall, it lacks a certain fluidity in its use that the prior one had. The current format is simply not conducive to the back-and-forth that appeared in the prior format. One reason is that in the prior format a thread was more like a tree with branches allowing responses to specific posts within a thread that meandered along in their own fashions. In this format, a thread is a straight line making it quite meaningless to post a comment on one that may have appeared five posts up the line. As a consequence, in the current format the original post in a thread is king, with some very minor court jesters along the way. The prior format was more conversational in its design and more friendly to the banter some above mention they miss, as do I. Also, for the same reason I think that the flow of technical information is somewhat constrained, as some of it took on a specialized quality, not unlike some of the banter, requiring sub-threads. Other reasons include what seems to me to be the greater effort required to post and read messages, the inability to see the subject lines within a thread, which told a story in themselves, the additional scrolling to move within the site, and, generally, less user friendliness. It is a comparatively slow medium not well suited to the banter. In short, this medium is colder than the prior one, and defines the messages that can be best stated here. Nevertheless, I'll take what I can get.

A few observations.

I notice many, many names that did not appear in the prior forum appearing in this one and similarly, many names have disappeared.

I find the Smilies more annoying than the trolls. At first the Smilies were a novelty; now, having seen a wide variety of permutations of them, they have become a joke twice told and distraction which, for me, adds to the difficulty of keeping my otherwise wandering consciousness clear enough to post here. Right now my eye keeps darting to the left because of the animation in the last line of them. The trolls were occasionally creative, or at least evocative. The Smilies have been sapped of any creative use in my opinion. If they are intended to lighten the forum up, I laud the effort but disagree in their effect.

I believe that this medium well suits Ben's objectives. For my tastes, some of the wheat went with the chaff.

Despite it all, I am delighted to be back in the Serotta house, albeit of a different architecture. I have made wonderful friendships here that moved beyond this forum and into real life. I missed the forum when it wasn't available.

I will be interested to see how the personality of this forum develops.

keno

________________________
Yes, we have no bananas

[Len J]

Keno:

I couldn't agree more.

If there were one change I could request it would be the "sub-thread" capability. It definatly made navigation and banter easier.

I'd like to find a way to figure out how to get to the last thread read within a post also......now I wander until I find it.

Yje smiles, bananas, bearmugs et al have got to go. A novelty whose time has passed.

Glad it is back, but wish it would take the few steps necessary to make it wonderful.

Len

[Kevin]

Len,

You were looking for a way to get to the first unread thread in a post. If you look in the top left hand corner of the screen, just under the link for Serotta Competition Bicyle Forums, there is a link that takes you directly to the first unread posting in the thread. This should address the issue. Hope this helps.

Kevin

[dnovo]

Keno, I could not agree more. While I tweaked my pal dbrk once with the dancing bananas, the constantly growing number of moving images within the posts make reading distracting. It is also getting overdone and it is NOT creative.

I also feel that some structural changes could and should be made, but would suggest that the best way to do that is simply ask. Given that there is now a direct link to the forum, and someone at Serotta who is supposed to be available to listen, I think your ideas on altering the way to read and post should be forwarded to them and, if we all ask (and I endorse your views, so you have my proxy) I hope the changes can be made.

New structure. In my conversations with Ben and others during the 'down time' they all wanted to get this up and running quickly. I trust changes can and will be made.

I also hope to see all of the 'old faces' back soon. Dave N.

[Tom]

I think that honest crabbing back and forth shouldn't and won't get disappeared. The key is the honesty part. I think we'll ease into it, in time. I don't know about anybody else but the way that the last forum spiraled in gave me pause.

[csm]

I have wondered about the demise of the old forum. while I appreciated the openess of the old ways, I am growing to like the new ones. I thought there seemed to be too many posts on the old forum that were directed at individuals berating them for buying a serotta over something lesser and/or cheaper. to me, most of those posts were sour grapes. I really enjoy my serotta and so far I have found nothing else that I covet more. I am sure that ben will introduce something else that I must have in the future. I don't begrudge anyone who rides something else (except c'dales, I just can't quite see it) because of various reasons (price, fit, color, etc etc etc) but I expect the same courtesy.
oh yeah, I'm not a big fan of litespeeds either. come to think of it... I don't much like merlins, k2, fuji,....now that I think further, serotta should be the only bike out there. why are you buying anything else? ha ha ha yes I am kidding. at least about everything but the cannondale part.
:p

[shinomaster]

:bike: :bike: :bike: Dnovo...I was not suggesting you killed the phorum in any way! But you did admit to it so I was curious...I'm more curious about what Ben said about the other bike companies.
The Roman empire was felled by barbarians, this I know is true. The only problem with your story is that the Romans would have been eating polenta rather than pasta, as they had no spaghetti at that time. Also, no need to send me the Troll's messages, I get the idea. But feel free to send me a Holiday card!!
Sandy I think with time the Forum will be is interesting as it ever was, especially with the addition of new members who are not aware of our dark past. It is still so new. I'm sure late one night the Jerk or I will drink too much Sam Adams and post something which incites a riot. My apologies in advance. Do you think the fact that you and I both like the banannas so much says something about our brains?

:banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: shino

[shinomaster]

I have to admit I'm not a big fan of the new format but as others have said It is way better than nothing. It is the reason I have posted so little since it has re-opened. It is just more difficult to navigate and see who wrote what to whom. I wish we could post pictures with our posts, or use a custom Icon for or name. Also more dancing fruit would be ideal..:banana: :beer: :crap: :argue: :confused: :rolleyes: :bike: :fight: :help:


Shino Beercan Jockey

[dnovo]

Shino, my lad, while I really didn't kill the old forum (remind me to let you know next time I place my tongue against cheek) I WILL hunt you down like a dog and subject you to a fate WORSE than death (listening to old BeeGee records) and instead of a Holiday Card, I will send you something far more deadly (a naked picture of Roseanne) if you don't stop with those *%$#@*& * moving targets! ENOUGH! Dave N.

[shinomaster]

:banana: :banana: :banana: I think you are going Bannanas and should be locked up!! I'm locking my doors and calling the Police!!!

:banana: :banana: :banana:
shino

[shinomaster]

Jive talkin!!!!:p :p :p :p :p :p :p

[dnovo]

You are cruel! And here I was going to leave all of my bike fleet to you in my will. Now, all you get is my autographed picture of Margret Thatcher wearing a Thong. Dave N.

[keno]

has developed. And, Shino and dnovo have engaged in what could be called banter. Why have I developed a headache reading Shino's posts? And, BTW, Shino appears to be responding to his own posts.

Later, it's medication time.

keno

[Kevin]

Dave,

With that visual of Margaret Thatcher I just went blind.

Kevin

[shinomaster]

wow! you are more of a wacko crackpot than I had ever known!! I'm no longer in your will? In that case don't eat that fruit cake I sent you!

Regards,

shino

P.S. I only want your new Tommasini Techno
:beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :crap: :argue: :banana: :banana: :banana:
Love bannanas don't eat them!!

[shinomaster]

:mad: :mad: :hello: :fight: :help: :beer:

Not related to anything,

i love Belgian beer,

:crap: :crap: :crap: :crap:

Regards,

shino

[shinomaster]

Dnovo...feel free to keep any picture of our chubby friend Rosanne that may be in your possession. Send all nude pictures of Heather Graham.
Keno, send more meds.

Shino;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

[Kevin]

Dave,

After causing me to lose my eyesight over the visual of Thatcher in a thong, the least you could do is post the nudes of Heather Graham requested by Shino. I'm not a doctor but I believe that those pictures could restore my eyesight.

Kevin

[dnovo]

Ahh, I am glad to see that things are finally back to normal here.

As for your 'Christmas List' Shino, they still have a few of the Tecno frames left at Colorado Cyclist. If they are in your size, a real 'steal in steel' at the asking price.

As for the other item on your list, Shino, I asked Heather this morning if it was okay to send you the pictures you wanted before I left for my morning ride. She said, "hell no, I only posed for you, don't send them to that dork" and rolled over and went back to sleep.

Sorry, I tried. Dave N.

[Kevin]

Dave,

I belive that I can speak for shino, we will accept photograpghs of Heather sleeping. I assume that she sleeps commando.

Kevin

[dnovo]

God, I am surrounded by dirty old AND young men! Dave N.

[Kevin]

Dave,

That hurts. I have no problem being called dirty. But since I am 10 years older than Shino you are also calling me old. That really hurts. Well at least I am younger than Sandy.

The banter is back. Hopefuly, we will get a warning of some kind if we cross the yet undefined line. I would hate to lose my privilleges over Heather.

Kevin

[shinomaster]

I have lusted after those techno frames for a while now, but i think they are out of my size and I'm out of money and out of room for a new bike.. Try living in a studio with a bunch of bikes.

shino

thanks for trying dave!

[dnovo]

Kevin: I did not say which old, or young dirty old man I was referring to in my post. And, Sandy is older than EVERYONE.

Dave N.