Pictures of the new Campagnolo crank

[zank]

Photos of the Mirage crank. Notice that the bearings are pressed onto the spindle, not in the cups.

http://www.rouesartisanales.com/article-2877726.html

http://idata.over-blog.com/0/02/72/10/campa-2007/campa2007_campagnoloultratorque1.jpg

http://idata.over-blog.com/0/02/72/10/campa-2007/campa2007_campagnoloultratorque2.jpg

http://idata.over-blog.com/0/02/72/10/campa-2007/campa2007_campagnoloultratorque6.jpg

[Tony Edwards]

Interesting. My gut feeling remains that this is an inferior, less durable version of the Bullseye/Shimano design, and I wish they'd stayed with the traditional crank. I guess we'll see how it works in practice.

[Grant McLean]

thanks zank!

i heard the rumor that june 1st was when the press could show
photos... guess it was true!

g

[zank]

My pleaure, Grant. Yup, it is June 1st in Europe! Cees is probably sleeping right now.

Another reason I need to learn a new language. I want to read www.procycling.be!

[obtuse]

My pleaure, Grant. Yup, it is June 1st in Europe! Cees is probably sleeping right now.

Another reason I need to learn a new language. I want to read www.procycling.be!


cees doesn't sleep. at least not untill 4am or 5am his time!

obtuse

[abstruse]

eshar-i sakinh, eshar-i belestimit?

[stevep]

looks like a shimano wrench will fit the cups,
wonder where the design came from?
the teeth look pretty massive... should work i bet

[cydewaze]

I like it. I thinik it'll be smooth as glass, and I think the bearings will last for eons.

[Too Tall]

Nice bearings. Smart axel interface. Now you don't even have to properly face the BB shell too...woo woo...there will be all sorts of great campag. tool kits for sale woo woo. Sigh...it is hard to let go.

[BarryG]

A joint in the middle of the axle? I think I'll wait on this one. :confused:

[Too Tall]

Barry, as much as I hate to say it the design for the 2 axel halves is rock solid and infact will improve the installation for many of the uhhh how shall we say it nicely..."Modern high tech. bikes for sale".

[team_sheepshead]

Apparently, this is a photo of the new Ultra Torque cranks (Mirage): http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=/photos/2006/tech/news/05-12/Y6B96I55TP_ViaNirone7

A company called NegMass makes something similar: http://www.rouesartisanales.com/article-2041293.html

[zap]

Nothing new here. All this has been done in the past with varying degree of success.

Jerk, or whatever he calls himself now, can probably confirm this. I'm sure the BB shell will need to be faced to keep the cups properly aligned. This part of the design appears to be similiar to the MM setup I played with a while back.

[David Kirk]

It's the S&S Couplers of cranks. Axial splines. Tricky and light.

Dave

[Avispa]

I'd love to see the pictures of the Record Carbon.

Someone mentioned that the Q factor of these Ultra Torque cranksets is to remain the same as the standard cranks. How is this possible? I see the outer bearings, so would the cranksets be flatter?

[BUTCH RIDES]

Hello,
I would have to say I think they are most beautiful.
Thank you

[Marcusaurelius]

Photos of the Mirage crank. Notice that the bearings are pressed onto the spindle, not in the cups.

http://www.rouesartisanales.com/article-2877726.html

http://idata.over-blog.com/0/02/72/10/campa-2007/campa2007_campagnoloultratorque1.jpg

http://idata.over-blog.com/0/02/72/10/campa-2007/campa2007_campagnoloultratorque2.jpg

http://idata.over-blog.com/0/02/72/10/campa-2007/campa2007_campagnoloultratorque6.jpg

I'm not so sure about the design given Campagnolo's 185lb weight limit on their parts. Is it really designed for heavier riders?

[Grant McLean]

I'm not so sure about the design given Campagnolo's 185lb weight limit on their parts. Is it really designed for heavier riders?

I would only assume it's designed to be stronger than the previous version.
What point would there be in making it worse than a design they used
for such a long time?

Given how late Campagnolo is coming to the party with an external bearing
design, i'd think they have it sorted out.

It's not rocket surgery. Who said that? I owe them a royalty cheque!

grant

[christian]

In terms of torque transfer mechanisms suited for high-torque applications like a bicycle, I can't think of a better one than a Hirth coupling. This crank is the real deal. I can't wait to get one! I am going to buy the highest-level aluminum alloy one the moment it becomes available.

- Christian

[BarryG]

a hollow alloy bolt holds the two sides together at 42 N.m

Evidently the two halves bolt together inside the hollow axle (one side internally threaded I suppose), but haven't seen a picture of that yet.

[Elefantino]

I would only assume it's designed to be stronger than the previous version. What point would there be in making it worse than a design they used for such a long time?

Delta brakes?

[Grant McLean]

Delta brakes?

ok, you win! :)

g

[zank]

a hollow alloy bolt holds the two sides together at 42 N.m

Evidently the two halves bolt together inside the hollow axle (one side internally threaded I suppose), but haven't seen a picture of that yet.

You can see the bolt in this picture. The hex is a 10 mm.

http://idata.over-blog.com/0/02/72/10/campa-2007/campa2007-cranks-1.jpg

[Richard]

I will watch with interest to see if the bolt loosens on the DIY and Professional (?) mechanic's improper installations. I saw a lot of DA 9 bottom bracket failures, destroyed splines and loose 10 spd non-drive cranks early in the adoption process.

[ada@prorider.or]

My pleaure, Grant. Yup, it is June 1st in Europe! Cees is probably sleeping right now.

Another reason I need to learn a new language. I want to read www.procycling.be!


i get a sleep at about at 03.00 till 03.30
my time always working and thinking
and there is about at least 8 hours differance with your place


by the way do not like the design for see lot´s of problems


better is there new carbon flat crankset for time trails

[obtuse]

i get a sleep at about at 03.00 till 03.30
my time always working and thinking
and there is about at least 8 hours diffearnce with your place


by the way do not like the design for see lot´s of problems


better is there new carbon flat crankset for time trails


with a narrow bb too?

obtuse

[Too Tall]

Actually the crank halves will align to the *threads not BB shell face same as all the external bearing jobs...grumble...it's sooooo hard to accept this. Must go home an count all my square taper spindles....arrrrg.

*Because now it's "bendy" in the middle.

[shinomaster]

This new crank will help lots of "Freds" on their sunday rides.

[cpg]

Why would Campagnolo offer this new design in a third(?) tier part? Usually the new stuff starts at the top and trickles down. I'm not saying it's a good or bad design just curious why Mirage?

Curt

[fiamme red]

Why would Campagnolo offer this new design in a third(?) tier part? Usually the new stuff starts at the top and trickles down. I'm not saying it's a good or bad design just curious why Mirage?

CurtThere's a precedent. Plastic brifters started with Mirage, then trickled up to Record, then down to Chorus. ;)

[goonster]

What point would there be in making it worse than a design they used for such a long time?


With all due respect, you answered this question yourself in the previous thread when you said (paraphrasing), "sometimes you just have to give the customers what they want."

The Campag fanboys have been grumbling for years about how they are staying loyal to Vicenza despite the "outdated" bottom brackets. I hear them at every other Wednesday night ride. Now they get what they deserve. :banana:

Lots of things look good on paper. I'll think about hopping on the bandwagon after they're out there, on actual bikes, installed by actual shopguys and home wrenchers, ridden by actual square-pedaling riders.

I'm with Curt. It's weird that they're introducing this in Mirage.

[BumbleBeeDave]

The teeth on the crank axle meet in the middle. The bearings are going to be outboard. So how are the two halves anchored to each other when the crank is on the bike? Is there a retainer ring that screws onto each end to hold it together? Or is there a bolt of some sort that goes all the way through the middle?

BBD

[zank]

BBD, there is a bolt in the middle. Check out the picture of hte crank mounted on the Bianchi. You can see the hex of the bolt.

[Jeff N.]

Weird. Weird, weird, weird.
So any guesses about the price tag of this? Jeff N.

[zank]

Regarding the MIrage, it may just be that Bianchi pushed them to have it ready for their product launch. We know that the new crank design will be for all ranges. Maybe the Mirage project was one of the easiest to finish in a quick time frame. I actually think it's cool that we know for sure that the whole range is going to get this revamp. Usually it takes a couple of seasons for the new technology to trickle down.

[zap]

snipped

Actually the crank halves will align to the *threads not BB shell face same as all the external bearing jobs

Every external bb installation I've done (Magic Motorcycle & FRM) recommends that bb shell be square. Here's another example.

http://www.fullspeedahead.com/downloads/MegaExo%20BB%20Installation%20final%20040820.pdf

This Campy design might be different, but bb threads have such a loose tolerance, I suspect they too would enjoy a finely faced BB shell.

[ada@prorider.or]

Why would Campagnolo offer this new design
Curt


well this design is not new
i remember this when i was at shool pic
of this kind of bb with crank in begin 1900

[Tommasini]

My understanding regarding the 185 lb rider limit posting is that it is not a limit whereby if you are above that you must not use the product if you expect warranty (or other) consideration. Rather if you are above 185 it is a recommendation to check your equipment more often because of the added stress.

[Grant McLean]

With all due respect, you answered this question yourself in the previous thread when you said (paraphrasing), "sometimes you just have to give the customers what they want."

The Campag fanboys have been grumbling for years about how they are staying loyal to Vicenza despite the "outdated" bottom brackets. I hear them at every other Wednesday night ride. Now they get what they deserve. :banana:

Lots of things look good on paper. I'll think about hopping on the bandwagon after they're out there, on actual bikes, installed by actual shopguys and home wrenchers, ridden by actual square-pedaling riders.

I'm with Curt. It's weird that they're introducing this in Mirage.

The new cranks are in the whole range.

I think that Campagnolo can make a trendy crank that also works.

With all due respect to you, (and Campagnolo) the currrent trend for
carbon cranks is mostly fashion, but i don't think there's anything inherently
wrong with campy carbon cranks, is there? I think the new cranks look
cool, and the Record level ones are reportedly 100grams lighter, if that sort
of thing does it for you.

I find it interesting that people doubt that Campy has any engineers on staff.
As Cees pointed out, the connection design is 100 years old.

g

[cpg]

For the record, I didn't mean new like it's never been done before. I meant new meaning Campagnolo hasn't ever offered this before. You are correct that especially in bikes almost everything has been done before. Fiamme red made a good point about the plastic shifter evolution. Perhaps it was in jest but there's more than a kernel of truth in it too. Zank might be right that Mirage was the market that they were most motivated to finish up first to meet some maker's demand like Bianchi. Still it seems weird to me. Not the design but the product line in which it's introduced to the public. That's my story and I'm sticking with it.

Curt

[goonster]

With all due respect to you, (and Campagnolo) the currrent trend for carbon cranks is mostly fashion, but i don't think there's anything inherently wrong with campy carbon cranks, is there?

Yes, I think it's a trend. No, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with them. But who said anything about carbon cranks? :confused:

I find it interesting that people doubt that Campy has any engineers on staff.


I'm not one of those people, but engineers make mistakes too. Ask me how I know. :)

There is no reason to think that the current crop of Campy engineers is that much smarter than the generations of engineers that came before them, just because today's bike buyers are bored with the square taper spindle. It's not like there is new technology involved.

Octalink rev. 1 looked good on paper, but in real-life use a small but significant number of users exposed a design flaw.

I've got no reason to think that Campy cooked up a dud here, but I'm also not passing judgement on the merits of this design based on a few press photos.


As Cees pointed out, the connection design is 100 years old.


So? There must be a reason why it fell out of favor. Cost? Complexity? Maintenance?

Integrated headset cups are a similarly old design. Doesn't mean that every bike has to have them.

Not negative. Just skeptical. ;)

[sailorboy]

for anyone not ready for this or interested (like me)...wait for the prices on chorus or record square tapers to drop significantly on ebay or elsewhere as everyone scrambles to "upgrade" to this technology.

[Grant McLean]

Just skeptical. ;)

I hear you. I just don't see anything that makes me question their judgement.

The irony I find in the logic of those who are so skeptical, is that
the reason why "standards" like square taper exsisted was only due
to tradition and anti-change. It's not a good design, even though
it works perfectly well for the application, there's tons better ways
to design an interface.

If you're starting from scratch, there's many better ways to do things
then being bound by the standards of the past.

Should we keep or toss all standards? I'm not saying either way,
but i'm betting this new crank will be good.

These kinds of discussions I find interesting because it exposes two
types of people: those who think things are just fine, and others
who want to find a better solution to solving problems.

g

[goonster]

These kinds of discussions I find interesting because it exposes two types of people: those who think things are just fine, and others who want to reinvent the widget to boost sales.


Fixed it for you. ;)

Seriously though . . .

The only person I've ever heard of who broke cranks on a regular basis is Jobst Brandt. He (engineer!) determined that the problem lay with the pedal/crank interface, not the bb/crank interface. Since he modified his crankarms to accept a specially machined conical washer, he's broken no cranks.

That sounds like the kind of superior solution to an actual problem that I would support. :beer:

[zank]

More pictures and details on Cyclingnews.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=tech/2006/news/06-02

I sure hope the higher-end alloy cranks are silver and not black. This year's Mirage was also black, so maybe there is hope for the higher end groups. I think I read that there will be no alloy Chorus or Record. Can anyone confirm that?

[Fat Robert]

don't like it

[Too Tall]

Doh! Now I get it. Bearing adjustment is a thing of the past. Bldyfin'brilliant and I mean that as a compliment.

[stevep]

2 questions for cees.
why the split spindle? seems like it introduces a number of issues.
where will the problems occur with this set-up?

[ada@prorider.or]

2 questions for cees.
why the split spindle? seems like it introduces a number of issues.
where will the problems occur with this set-up?


why split spindle ?
there would many reasons i think
first weight saving, second fitting ,.................
many production related items

one of the mayor problems
keep a axel line precision this for the bearings
also the screw thread gone be critical here
the polution
corosion
at special at close to salt water area´s
then fitting of the spline gone be critical in production
thinkness control
also material is not constant there is always polution
so that has to be looked at very critcal that is meets it specs
also the tread in the frame´s must be cut in one line
other wise introduce many other problems


well many other´s items also

................................

[Orin]

I don't see why the big fuss about keying off the threads. It's true for existing BBs which only have a flange on one side anyway. If the threads aren't in line, the existing BBs tend to bind. Why would the new design be any worse?

[Too Tall]

Actually the new design is more tolerant of the BB faces when they are not perfectly parallel because of the Hirth joint. What I said in prev. post had to do with what Cees said regarding alignment now is dependent on both BB bearings resting in threads which were bored in one pass so that the entire (turning) mechanism rotates around an central axis. Who knows, this may be a system that is very tolerant of all sorts of faults in frame prep. and installation...it certainly has that potential from what I see.

[ada@prorider.or]

I don't see why the big fuss about keying off the threads. It's true for existing BBs which only have a flange on one side anyway. If the threads aren't in line, the existing BBs tend to bind. Why would the new design be any worse?
so you do not mind if you left leg is let say 1 mm of in a circle the as your right leg

let´s say 20.000 time´s a day

i am sure you gone develop a problem
but ok if you do not find that a problem

[zap]

so you do not mind if you left leg is let say 1 mm of in a circle the as your right leg

let´s say 20.000 time´s a day

i am sure you gone develop a problem
but ok if you do not find that a problem

I doubt any human body has such a tight tolerance.

[goonster]

I doubt any human body has such a tight tolerance.

Michael Jordan wore two different size shoes. And he's not the only one . . .

[saab2000]

I doubt any human body has such a tight tolerance.

Hard to say. But I know that in the 70s and 80s when clips 'n straps were still king, lots of riders had knee problems. Tendinitis was common. Nowadays it is just about unheard of and I think it is because of better pedals and shoes. I think the knee can be very sensitive.

Still, I don't see a problem with the new crank. Want to see one in Record in person. Of course I am bummed cuz now my Record carbon crank on my Strong is horribly obsolete and flexy.