Off Topic - Manzano pool...

[merlinagilis]

OK, who wants to place bets on how long before Manzano gets lynched by his (former) fellow riders?!!?
Seriously, interesting stuff to read, but its not like its anything anyone didn't already know.
Its OK to dope in sports, its just not OK to get caught....

[Dude]

Yeah, I find it really interesting. Its kind of crappy knowing that many of the results out there may have been tainted with drugs. Kind of takes the excitement out of it.

I think its even weirder that Amore e vita is trying to sign him back up. Whats up with that?

[merlinagilis]

Well, its simple. He has done nothing wrong in the eyes of the other pros (other than speak about it).
Like I said, its only a sin to get caught. If you think any of those guys are clean, you are mistaken, and that has been known for a long time. So the way I see it, its still exciting to watch, because they are all on somewhat of a level playing field since all the top guys use (I know, some more than others). I realize there may be the -very- odd exception...
Willy Voight's (sp?) book 'Breaking the Chain' is an interesting read....

[merlinagilis]

Does anyone think LeBlanc would disqualify Postal if they caught someone on that team doping?

[Russ]

Does anyone think LeBlanc would disqualify Postal if they caught someone on that team doping?

I don't think they would have done it last year, when Lance was going for 5 and it was the Centenary Tour. But thye would have done it this year.....

IMHO, there is A LOT, I mean A LOT of politics in, around, and BEFORE the Tour.

[BumbleBeeDave]

I think it's definitely "on topic" since it IS about cycling.

Anyway, my own feeling is that athletes with the sheer talent and/or genetics to actually excel in these extreme races environments DO exist. I strongly doubt that the very top echelon--Tyler, Lance, Vinokourov, Ulrich, etc.--are doped. Nor are most of the riders who are obviously capable of leading their own teams if they got the opportunity. Many of the other riders of USPS fall into this category.

But there is a lower echelon--a "second string" if you will--of riders who are very good amateurs or good third division pros who just don't QUITE have the oomph to stay up with the big boys. These are the riders who are oh, so achingly close to fame and fortune and need something extra to get there. They are the ones who are doped. I think you would still see good races if there were guaranteed no doping, but the tour would not have 190 riders . . . there might be 90-100 there, though.

Manzano seems to be one of these riders . . . he's good, but he wants that fame and fortune and got involved with a team where the pressure to perform was unfortunately coupled with some people in the team management who were unscrupulous enough to make the means available. And it seems to be the kind of thing that more team members fall into as they realize they can't keep up unless they do it, too.

Is Manzano just making this all up, motivated by revenge? Maybe--but the more I hear, the more I doubt it. There are just too many details, too many reasonable sounding procedures for avoiding or fooling the drug tests, and too much correlation with actual events like the whole team pulling out of that race with "stomach problems."

Now he is naming names for the French authorities, and I think this whole thing is going to blow up into a real scandal. I feel bad for the rest of the riders--the 2/3(?) of the peloton who don't dope. But I also feel they have halfway brought it on themselves with their juvenile "code of silence." I would not be surprised if the managers at Kelme were depending on that code to keep him quiet even aftyer they fired him. But in this case at least be grateful the riders DON'T have a union, or we would have some absolutely laughable testing program like major league steroid-ball in this country.

BBDave

[merlinagilis]

You think that 2/3rds of the peleton doesn't dope?!?!
Obviously I don't really have any way of proving you wrong, but...
Reading books like Breaking the Chain, the whole festina scandal, the raids on homes of JM, etc, the cofidus boys, we could go way back and name Pedro Degado as an example of a top rider who doped.....then there is Richard Virenque, Pantani, etc.
I know Lance always (obviously) denies doping. But I always find it strange that his answer is "I've never tested positive"..
If I'm not mistaken, most of the riders who have been in the press about this have all said that at least 80% of the peleton dopes, no? It isn't just Manzano who is pointing this out..

Anyways, these guys are all still truly freakishly genetically gifted, and I think the racing would still be great without drugs.

[Russell]

Even Eddie Merckx was busted, though he has always denied using. It will take one of the legends (Eddie, Hinault, etc) to admit to doping (if they did) to be able to bring about real change. I want to believe they don't.

Wasn't Delgado accused of blood doping - taking out blood when training at altitude and then putting the enriched blood back in before a big race? I know some long distance runners were thought to have done this.

[merlinagilis]

Interesting article, including the name of the substance (a steroid masking agent) that delgado was caught using:

http://www.canoe.com/TourDeFrance/jul24_bau.html

[BumbleBeeDave]

Note that I did put a question mark there! My percentage may be off, but how can we REALLY know? Anyway, I hew to my original theory . . . There ARE athletes out there who are tremendously gifted naturally, but not enough of them to put together a very large "clean" peloton. ;)
BBDave

[Andreu]

I have never knowingly taken performance enhancing drugs (strong coffee works for me....is this on the doping list?) nor have I been in the second week of a long tour feeling like crap knowing that I have to get a high finish to get a contract renewal and feed the wife and kids for another year.

I don't condone taking drugs but professional have slightly different priorities to us when they get on their bikes or, in effect, go to work. So I am not going to get high and mighty about this (well not too much anyway). We are all to blame (some more than others) fans, sponsers and the riders. We want exciting finishes in the alps, pyranees, wherever, the sponsers want it too.......I am not sure what the riders want but they may have to resort to extreme methods to thrill the crowds and finish these races. What do we do?.....less racing? shorter stages....longer rests?
A