Is it ethical to "tank" a classified when you know the product may have issues?

[echappist]

One of the ads in classified is selling something known to have issues. I have first hand knowledge, documented evidence from at least one other, and a few more people confirming that what happened to me was a known issue.

What is considered to be reasonable in such a situation? FWIW, the person who sold me the item in question at least partially reimbursed me for my troubles.

[54ny77]

Let it that shall not be named, be named!

http://gifsoup.com/view2/1512597/bunny-eating-popcorn-o.gif

[R3awak3n]

if its something that could affect safety of whoever buys it I think its fine to alert the buyer in the thread. This is for reference, so that in the future if someone searches for this, other people can learn from this. Also so that other people that currently have the product know about this.

if its about how its cheaper somewhere else, i say send a PM, don't put the member on blast and don't polute the thread.

[bicycletricycle]

Without knowing the issue it's hard to say exactly, if it was recalled or something than I might just post something, if it is just a bad experience with a component that a few people have had than a PM would suffice.

[djg21]

I would alert the seller privately and give him/her the opportunity to fully disclose the issue. If there is no response in a reasonable time, I'd consider asking a question about the issue in the thread so the seller has an opportunity to address the supposed issue.

However, it really depends on the issue and how significant it is. I'm assuming it to be something relatively significant given your post.

[FlashUNC]

If its a safety issue, absolutely pipe up. Aesthetics? Um....that's a tougher one.

[echappist]

it's not at the level of a recall, though i really thought seriously about how filing a CPSC complaint. The items in question are wheels, and the nipple on the wheels, purportedly brass, is actually alloy. I've experienced broken nipples on this wheel on two occasions and actually just had my shop rebuild the wheel with new washers and brass nipples. Though i joke around saying i'm zaftig, i'm not that demanding on my wheels as i'm 158lb at my heaviest.

I don't know if broken spoke nipples constitute a safety issue, which is what made it difficult to originally decide whether to go ahead with the CPSC complaint. FWIW, the company was very bad at following up...

[Tony T]

Are you saying that the seller is knowingly describing the build with brass nipples when he knows that they are alloy?

[R3awak3n]

also there are plenty of wheels with alloy spokes that are sound. hmmmm, maybe you had bad luck with your set and other sets are fine. Does suck if they lied about brass vs alloy but tons of people build with alloy and the wheelset is strong and lasts.

[54ny77]

I misread the post as being the seller is reselling something that the OP got burned on from that seller (who had to buy it back).

Is it instead a qc failure issue on an item the OP has/owned and purchased elsewhere?

That sounds like most [insert American passenger vehicle] car ads. :D

(In which case, buyer beware, let them do the homework.)

[bicycletricycle]

Chime in then, most people are not afraid of alloy nipples. Some people might like the wheels even more if they find out they have alloy nipples.

[djg21]

it's not at the level of a recall, though i really thought seriously about how filing a CPSC complaint. The items in question are wheels, and the nipple on the wheels, purportedly brass, is actually alloy. I've experienced broken nipples on this wheel on two occasions and actually just had my shop rebuild the wheel with new washers and brass nipples. Though i joke around saying i'm zaftig, i'm not that demanding on my wheels as i'm 158lb at my heaviest.

I don't know if broken spoke nipples constitute a safety issue, which is what made it difficult to originally decide whether to go ahead with the CPSC complaint. FWIW, the company was very bad at following up...

So it's not the seller who is failing to disclose, but in your opinion a failure of the manufacturer to deliver a product conforming to the manufacturer's own representations and implied warranty of fitness? If I follow you, the seller is not doing anything but selling wheels that in your experience proved less durable than you had expected, and is not intentionally withholding material information.

I don't think you should interfere. Maybe you can post about your experience in a separate, unrelated GD thread so the issue can be aired and people who had positive experiences, if any, also can chime in?

[echappist]

So it's not the seller who is failing to disclose, but in your opinion a failure of the manufacturer to deliver a product conforming to the manufacturer's own representations and implied warranty of fitness? If I follow you, the seller is not doing anything but selling wheels that in your experience proved less durable than you had expected, and is not intentionally withholding material information.

I don't think you should interfere. Maybe you can post about your experience in a separate, unrelated GD thread so the issue can be aired and people who had positive experiences, if any, also can chime in?



yes, you are correct. It has nothing to do with the seller him/herself. However, this QC issues is more than just a freak occurrence as 3 other people confirmed my experience.

that said, the seller may not have had an issue due to the lower miles on the wheels, but that's neither here nor there.
Chime in then, most people are not afraid of alloy nipples. Some people might like the wheels even more if they find out they have alloy nipples.

well it's more like alloy nipples that will break and strand you on the road...

[Dead Man]

You should definitely just MYOB, or PM the seller if you really have a problem - don't mess with his thread. Especially when it sounds like something that is a low-probability thing anyway.

Reminds me of 9000/9001 shifter ads, and the invariable asshole "doez gon eat yur cables" post.

[bicycletricycle]

well it's more like alloy nipples that will break and strand you on the road...

So will wheels with low spoke count, carbon rims, most lightweight components, you get the idea.

That doesn't mean people don't buy them.

I like the idea of chiming in on wheels adds

"In my experience wheels with less than 32 spokes can be problematic, buyer beware"

[tumbler]

Unless there was a product recall or this was actually your former wheelset being resold with necessary information left out, I don't think this rises to the level of chiming in on someone else's FS ad. The buyer can and should do their own research and decide if that wheelset is right for them.

[CSTRider]

I say if it's a VW TDI, you should definitely chime in ...

[dgauthier]

After reading all the circumstances in this thread, say nothing. If there is no recall, and the product is used successfully on thousands and thousands of wheel sets, then the experience you and your three friends have with alloy nipples means absolutely nothing.

If I were selling the wheels (and I wouldn't -- anyone with any sense rides brass) and you PM'd me about it, I'd find the nicest way possible to tell you to myob.

[mecse]

One of the ads in classified is selling something known to have issues. I have first hand knowledge, documented evidence from at least one other, and a few more people confirming that what happened to me was a known issue.

What is considered to be reasonable in such a situation? FWIW, the person who sold me the item in question at least partially reimbursed me for my troubles.

If it's a safety issue, speak up and speak super duper loud.

Otherwise ?

[djg21]

It has nothing to do with the seller him/herself. However, this QC issues is more than just a freak occurrence as 3 other people confirmed my experience.



A "freak experience"? 3 wheels allegedly sustaining nipple failures out of how many units sold? Do you have any idea?

You obviously had doubts yourself or you wouldn't be asking for advice. If you have to ask if its right to "tank" a sale, it seems you already know the answer to your question?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CampyorBust]

I think the standard MO when you have an issue but no tissue is to create a related or seemingly related thread, with some clever subliminal, implication or vague gibe as a topic. If you want to take it to the next level stalk the member, find out all that you can then get the good ol' boys club to join in the provocative passive aggressive chicanery. I mean that's the "stand up guy" thing to do, I kid of course.:p

Your on the right track, communication is always best, PM the seller. Sounds like a clear-cut case of false advertisement (be it accidental or deliberate). For the record I like colorful nipples, tassels are nice too!

[BumbleBeeDave]

I would alert the seller privately and give him/her the opportunity to fully disclose the issue. If there is no response in a reasonable time, I'd consider asking a question about the issue in the thread so the seller has an opportunity to address the supposed issue.

However, it really depends on the issue and how significant it is. I'm assuming it to be something relatively significant given your post.

Then you've got backup if you have to out him and he's pissed. I have way fewer issues ticking off a seller whom I have already privately determined to be unethical, than I have possibly angering a forum member buyer in good standing who has just gotten screwed. We have no room here for sellers who can't run a class act, and if a bad seller gets angry and leaves, well, don't let the door hit you on the way out . . .

BBD

[shovelhd]

I would not trash somebody's ad unless you have concrete evidence that the item has an issue, I.e. You see a cracked nipple in one of the pictures and you point that out.

[echappist]

A "freak experience"? 3 wheels allegedly sustaining nipple failures out of how many units sold? Do you have any idea?

You obviously had doubts yourself or you wouldn't be asking for advice. If you have to ask if its right to "tank" a sale, it seems you already know the answer to your question?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Maybe some may appreciate knowing that there is a risk and that it may be better to stay away from wheels with known QC issues, which is why i'm asking. I paid $325 for my wheels, which were new, and have spent $90 to get the rear fixed. The front has gone quite out of true in the mean time, and i'm now getting quite a bit of pulsing. had i known that my purchase was $415 in reality, i'd have spent $100 more and either built my own or gotten my friend's zipp 101.

In any case, it's a moot issue now.

You may say alleged, but this is not a court of law, and at least one other incidence was documented. The wheel was OEM on a certain bike, and apparently quite a few of this particular subset experienced similar issues (according to one source of "hearsay", if you want to apply the legal term). So far from freak incidence given these were not massively popular wheels.

And while i do have questions, no, i do not know what should be done. The "tanking" is put in parenthesis as i recognize that it's one of the ways this may be perceived. Or it could be a PSA from the perspective of potential buyers. Who knows? If you are chiding me, then just come out and say so; though in my defense, i would say that you are getting worked up over a subjunctive as i have not taken any active action and do not plan on doing so. I started the thread b/c i like reading the Social Q and the Ethicist columns on the NYT, and thought i could ask the collective wisdom of the board on what is appropriate.

[djg21]

Maybe some may appreciate knowing that there is a risk and that it may be better to stay away from wheels with known QC issues, which is why i'm asking. I paid $325 for my wheels, which were new, and have spent $90 to get the rear fixed. The front has gone quite out of true in the mean time, and i'm now getting quite a bit of pulsing. had i known that my purchase was $415 in reality, i'd have spent $100 more and either built my own or gotten my friend's zipp 101.

In any case, it's a moot issue now.

You may say alleged, but this is not a court of law, and at least one other incidence was documented. The wheel was OEM on a certain bike, and apparently quite a few of this particular subset experienced similar issues (according to one source of "hearsay", if you want to apply the legal term). So far from freak incidence given these were not massively popular wheels.

And while i do have questions, no, i do not know what should be done. The "tanking" is put in parenthesis as i recognize that it's one of the ways this may be perceived. Or it could be a PSA from the perspective of potential buyers. Who knows? If you are chiding me, then just come out and say so; though in my defense, i would say that you are getting worked up over a subjunctive as i have not taken any active action and do not plan on doing so. I started the thread b/c i like reading the Social Q and the Ethicist columns on the NYT, and thought i could ask the collective wisdom of the board on what is appropriate.

If you paid $325 for a new set of wheels you likely got what you bargained for. I'm assuming you purchased new, because if you purchased used, it is possible that the prior owner rebuilt the wheels with alloy nipples before selling them to you.

But maybe you should shift the discussion by identifying the manufacturer of the wheels at issue and fully detailing the issues you encountered with the product. As I suggested earlier, others may have had different experiences, and as consumers, many of us would like to know if this was merely a fluke or rather a common problem as you suggest.

[echappist]

but by identifying the manufacturer, wouldn't that indirectly tank the sale (i'm not asking rhetorically)?

[rugbysecondrow]

Mind your business. People can use Google (or should) and search for reviews. To be very frank, it is not your job to be the arbiter of what is and is not a quality product, then to be the town cryer. ALso, too many variables on wheels (are you chubby, are you a pot hole magnet) so let people make their own decision.

If this specific item had an issue (cracked frame or was in an accident) and the seller was not being forthright, that is totally different. You just think the product is ····. I think lots of products are ····, but I would not tank somebodys ad over it.

Cheers!


Maybe some may appreciate knowing that there is a risk and that it may be better to stay away from wheels with known QC issues, which is why i'm asking. I paid $325 for my wheels, which were new, and have spent $90 to get the rear fixed. The front has gone quite out of true in the mean time, and i'm now getting quite a bit of pulsing. had i known that my purchase was $415 in reality, i'd have spent $100 more and either built my own or gotten my friend's zipp 101.

In any case, it's a moot issue now.

You may say alleged, but this is not a court of law, and at least one other incidence was documented. The wheel was OEM on a certain bike, and apparently quite a few of this particular subset experienced similar issues (according to one source of "hearsay", if you want to apply the legal term). So far from freak incidence given these were not massively popular wheels.

And while i do have questions, no, i do not know what should be done. The "tanking" is put in parenthesis as i recognize that it's one of the ways this may be perceived. Or it could be a PSA from the perspective of potential buyers. Who knows? If you are chiding me, then just come out and say so; though in my defense, i would say that you are getting worked up over a subjunctive as i have not taken any active action and do not plan on doing so. I started the thread b/c i like reading the Social Q and the Ethicist columns on the NYT, and thought i could ask the collective wisdom of the board on what is appropriate.

[AngryScientist]

but by identifying the manufacturer, wouldn't that indirectly tank the sale (i'm not asking rhetorically)?

Here is the way I view this.

This forum is honestly supposed to be a community of cyclists as a first priority, and main priority. the classifieds section has exploded in usage and popularity, but i personally take interest in keeping this place friendly. if someone is here with the sole intention of selling stuff, and making a maximum return for their stuff - we dont need or want them here.

in the spirit of friendly sales, and the fact that we're all adults here, we should be able to have an open discussion about any cycling related product, where everyone is free to share their knowledge and experience. this is from casual users to pro mechanics that hang out here. if an open and honest discussion lead to a seller needing to adjust a price, or change their mind about a sale, as long as there are good intentions all around i see nothing wrong with that.

again, we're all here to talk about cycling. it's a discussion board that happens to have a classified section. let's keep it open, honest and free flowing with information/discussion.

to the point: what wheels are we talking about. it's my experience that a set of wheels, built properly with weight appropriate parts, and correct tension can be very robust and reliable with aluminum nipples. several pro wheel builders agree and support that concept. i'm curious what wheels have this type of problem, and i'd like to know what the underlying cause is, because it's NOT just the fact that the nips are alloy.

[54ny77]

Is someone on the forum trying to sell their '77 Ford Pinto again?

That's just not right.

https://beggarsbreaddotcom.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/ford_pinto-in-flames.jpg?w=614&h=454

[rugbysecondrow]

Totally disagree that people should be encouraged to pipe up and provide negative commentary on somebody else's classified ad, especially if it is just their opinion regarding the product. I don't think this practice you are encouraging has ever been part of the accepted culture here. Period.

Here is the way I view this.

This forum is honestly supposed to be a community of cyclists as a first priority, and main priority. the classifieds section has exploded in usage and popularity, but i personally take interest in keeping this place friendly. if someone is here with the sole intention of selling stuff, and making a maximum return for their stuff - we dont need or want them here.

in the spirit of friendly sales, and the fact that we're all adults here, we should be able to have an open discussion about any cycling related product, where everyone is free to share their knowledge and experience. this is from casual users to pro mechanics that hang out here. if an open and honest discussion lead to a seller needing to adjust a price, or change their mind about a sale, as long as there are good intentions all around i see nothing wrong with that.

again, we're all here to talk about cycling. it's a discussion board that happens to have a classified section. let's keep it open, honest and free flowing with information/discussion.

to the point: what wheels are we talking about. it's my experience that a set of wheels, built properly with weight appropriate parts, and correct tension can be very robust and reliable with aluminum nipples. several pro wheel builders agree and support that concept. i'm curious what wheels have this type of problem, and i'd like to know what the underlying cause is, because it's NOT just the fact that the nips are alloy.

[AngryScientist]

Totally disagree that people should be encouraged to pipe up and provide negative commentary on somebody else's classified ad.

agree. if, however someone wants to start a discussion here in the GD section about the quality or engineering issues concerning a set of wheels, that's fair game for a cycling forum.

[wc1934]

I would want to know - Prior to making a purchase I like as much info as possible - I you have info that would influence my decision, I would appreciate those comments.

[shovelhd]

agree. if, however someone wants to start a discussion here in the GD section about the quality or engineering issues concerning a set of wheels, that's fair game for a cycling forum.

I would have no problem with that. If this indirectly tanks a sale in the classifieds so be it. However trashing a classified post is another thing altogether, even with the best of intentions.

[rugbysecondrow]

agree. if, however someone wants to start a discussion here in the GD section about the quality or engineering issues concerning a set of wheels, that's fair game for a cycling forum.

Maybe. We are all grown folks here. Use Google, read any number of reviews that are available on wheels. No need to be that guy and tank somebody elses thread, whether it is done in the Classifieds or the GD section. Seems like a dick move.

[nm87710]

:(

[shovelhd]

Echappist wouldn't be caught dead anywhere near a Chipotle.

[echappist]

First of all, i want to thank everyone for the viewpoints. Regarding the wheels, i think they just happens to be poorly-built factory wheels, and the alloy nipple, per se, may not have been an issue, though i'm under the impression that a particular batch used was defective.

Echappist wouldn't be caught dead anywhere near a Chipotle.

:o Instead i'll find myself eating taco at a real taqueria only to see a mouse scurry behind a refrigerator (true story that happened at a well-regarded place here in DC). I do miss the taquerias on 116 & Lex and 106 & Amsterdam, and i guess you are right that i didn't go to the Chipotle near my apartment after finding out about those other two places.

i guess a better analogy would be the issues with the 1st gen Pacenti rims. I know quite a few of those rims never experiences any issues, but then again a non-trivial number of them did.

The only thing i'm a bit uncomfortable about posting the issue directly here in this thread is that i'd have never started the thread had i not wandered into the Classified section and saw that particular ad...

On another thought, i wouldn't go wade into someone else's thread for the sale of a 1st gen Quarq or Stages and say, caveat emptor, these units are known for behaving erratically in the wet even though these were widely known issues... Perhaps i think getting stranded on the road with a broken spoke is more of a concern than getting bad data? FWIW, back when i sold my own Quarq unit, which was behaving as well as it could and certainly better than a lot of the other units, I alerted to potential buyers of issues in the rain (which was one reason why i sold it).

[djg21]

I would have no problem with that. If this indirectly tanks a sale in the classifieds so be it. However trashing a classified post is another thing altogether, even with the best of intentions.

This has been the approach I suggested. IMO, it's bad form to inject one's self and one's opinion into a prospective transaction where you are neither the seller nor a prospective purchaser unless you know as fact that the seller is not disclosing information that is material to a reasoned purchasing decision and clearly ought to be disclosed.

An unrelated discussion in the GD forum about the quality of a product available for retail purchase is legitimate and could benefit all of the forum's members.

[chiasticon]

it's my experience that a set of wheels, built properly with weight appropriate parts, and correct tension can be very robust and reliable with aluminum nipples. several pro wheel builders agree and support that concept. i'm curious what wheels have this type of problem, and i'd like to know what the underlying cause is, because it's NOT just the fact that the nips are alloy.this. saying that using alloy nips means your wheels will blow up and you'll be stranded is pretty silly. trying to tank someone's sale because you want to dissuade a would-be buyer from reaching this supposed foregone conclusion is even sillier. as someone else said, one could make the same argument about pretty much any component that they deem to be sub-par and not worth purchasing.

in my opinion, it's a slippery slope once this precedent is set. pretty soon, every sram sale thread will contain "dis sucks. git shimano or campy."

[Big Dan]

Only if the item is fake and seller won't do anything about it.

[William]

Is someone on the forum trying to sell their '77 Ford Pinto again?

That's just not right.

https://beggarsbreaddotcom.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/ford_pinto-in-flames.jpg?w=614&h=454


Dude, I was just about to list my Pinto in the classifieds!:mad:


Yeah, very funny...Ha ha ha ha

http://ak-hdl.buzzfed.com/static/2014-06/9/11/enhanced/webdr07/anigif_enhanced-3979-1402328232-30.gif



I keed.

As has been noted: Don't interject into a listing unless you have first hand experience with that seller in regards to bad/unsafe goods. That is also what the "Feedback" thread is for.

Nothing wrong with product threads in the GD area, again, as long as you are not linking to a specific seller's thread elsewhere.









William

[tumbler]

Mind your business. People can use Google (or should) and search for reviews. To be very frank, it is not your job to be the arbiter of what is and is not a quality product, then to be the town cryer. ALso, too many variables on wheels (are you chubby, are you a pot hole magnet) so let people make their own decision.

If this specific item had an issue (cracked frame or was in an accident) and the seller was not being forthright, that is totally different. You just think the product is ï½·ï½·ï½·ï½·. I think lots of products are ï½·ï½·ï½·ï½·, but I would not tank somebodys ad over it.

Cheers!

This sums it up perfectly. We aren't talking about a recalled baby crib or carseat. If an adult wants to buy a cheap used wheelset that you personally aren't a fan of, but as far as we know, is accurately described and functioning at the time of sale, it is none of our business. Should we hang around Land Rover dealerships to make sure that everyone is aware of their longstanding reliability issues? Your heart is obviously in the right place, but I think the answer to this one is pretty clear.

[J. Anquetil]

Speak up. The world is full of rip off artists.

[kevinvc]

I agree with some of the different / conflicting viewpoints based on the situation. If someone is posting a specific item that you know has issues, e.g. a frameset that you have seen firsthand and know has a bad dent that the seller doesn't mention, I would PM the seller and suggest they disclose the issue. If they don't change the listing in a timely manner or if someone posts an "I'll take it" response, I would find it appropriate to post the information in the sale thread.

If it's a product that has a known serious issue or recall, such as the GT mountain bike model that had major hub problems, it's definitely worth pointing out right away. It shouldn't be a shaming thing and I'd give the seller the benefit of the doubt that they didn't know about it. Yes, it would probably kill their ability to sell the item.

If it's a situation as you've described where you've had a bad experience with the product but not that particular unit, I don't think it's fair to the seller to tank their listing. As Angry Scientist said, that kind of information is appropriate for the GD forum, but shouldn't necessarily be prompted because of a listing. I've seen threads by people saying they bought "product X" and found it didn't perform well or had quality problems. That's good information and I'd be interested in the thread, but the timing would definitely seem suspect if it got posted right after someone listed it in the Classifieds.

So, to summarize: it depends.

[echappist]

Speak up. The world is full of rip off artists.

apologies regarding the initial confusion caused by my original, somewhat opaquely worded, post. No one on this board is ripping off anyone else. I have less kind things to say about the manufacturer, though

[Ryun]

I think the classified forum would be over run if some of us just starting posting commentary on products we thought were poo poo, broke on us or didn't perform up to the marketing.
I had a 5500 trek come apart on me at a States RR one time but I don't know that I need to recount that everytime someone posts a trek for sale. The longer you are in the sport, the longer that lists becomes.

Opinions and experiences with cycling equipment is what the GD is for.

[Hindmost]

How may of us have opinions regarding any particular item's value, practicality, serviceability, durability? I would hazard a guess that the majority of us would. Do we have a responsibility to express our opinions in the event of an offer to sell to which we are an uninvolved party and our opinions are unsolicited? I believe the answer is: no.

Caveat emptor.