ot: laptop shopping need help

[Tommasini53]

I need to shop for a new laptop. In the past I've always shopped at the lower end of the pc food-chain purchasing something in the $300 range from Best Buy. I'm wondering about my past shopping habits as I'm getting 12 to 18 months before there is a noticeable degradation. I don't have a knowledge base to differentiate between hardware and op. systm issues. My questions to forumites:

1) do I get worthy improvements spending few hundred $ more in terms of stability and op systm stability;
2) is it worth shopping for a model with no 3rd party software? microsoft refers to it as "signiture" line;
3) any shopping hints like places to avoid or trustworthy sources for info?

uses: internet communications, spreadsheets, some gaming
as always, thanks in advance :)

[likebikes]

it's not for everyone but i love my chromebook.

[Steve in SLO]

I can't directly answer any of the above questions, but whatever you do, put hands on models that you are interested in. I was set on a MacBook, but ended up buying an HP Sceptre 360. I would have been really unhappy if I had ordered the Mac.

[Tony T]

I need to shop for a new laptop. In the past I've always shopped at the lower end of the pc food-chain purchasing something in the $300 range from Best Buy. I'm wondering about my past shopping habits as I'm getting 12 to 18 months before there is a noticeable degradation.

Ay reason not to consider a Mac? (My 2010 MacBook Air is still going strong)

[Veloo]

I'll say stay away from Dell. Pieces of junk from my experience - both at home and work (and friends).
Very cheaply made.
Battery died fast on our laptop. Would overheat very easily too.

They seem to be good value (ie cheaper) but are a headache if you are tech support for the household.

I equate them to Alibaba carbon bikes.

[dalava]

I need to shop for a new laptop. In the past I've always shopped at the lower end of the pc food-chain purchasing something in the $300 range from Best Buy. I'm wondering about my past shopping habits as I'm getting 12 to 18 months before there is a noticeable degradation. I don't have a knowledge base to differentiate between hardware and op. systm issues. My questions to forumites:

1) do I get worthy improvements spending few hundred $ more in terms of stability and op systm stability;
2) is it worth shopping for a model with no 3rd party software? microsoft refers to it as "signiture" line;
3) any shopping hints like places to avoid or trustworthy sources for info?

uses: internet communications, spreadsheets, some gaming
as always, thanks in advance :)

The problem with laptops, especially the Windows machines, is that they are typically built to a price point: and the manufacturers source their parts form many difference OEMs with that in mind, and many of these OEMs are not long term suppliers. The end result is that these laptops require many different hardware drivers to work, and often, these software and hardware of the laptop don't work well with each other. Apple is a lot better because they have much more control of their supply chain and the parts they use in the laptop are typically from long-term suppliers. Therefore, the software and hardware in their laptops work in a more integrated way; the downside is that you pay premium for it. But the fact is that because of the better quality hardware, an Apple laptop would run better as a Windows machine.

For me, if you can find a good conditioned previous gen used Macbook Pro/Air, and put bootcamp/Windows on it, it will offer you longer life than a new Windows laptop you pick up from Best Buy or Newegg.

[dgauthier]

Ay reason not to consider a Mac? (My 2010 MacBook Air is still going strong)

+1. My Macs typically return 7 years of productive life. However, if you are spending $300 for a product with a useful lifespan of 1.5 years, you are getting roughly the same number of years per dollar as a Mac. A Mac may give you 5 to 7 years of life, but will run you $1000 to $1400.

Computers are one of those things that improve so much over time, it's nice to always have a new one, and three hundred dollars is a tiny amount of money. I'd say just keep doing what you are doing, and when the computer starts going wonky after 18 months, take comfort that you're getting exactly what you paid for, in exactly the right proportion.

[Tony T]

…and back up your data frequently

[ptourkin]

I'll say stay away from Dell. Pieces of junk from my experience - both at home and work (and friends).
Very cheaply made.
Battery died fast on our laptop. Would overheat very easily too.

They seem to be good value (ie cheaper) but are a headache if you are tech support for the household.

I equate them to Alibaba carbon bikes.

The new XPS 13 is the highest rated non-Mac I've ever seen. People love it.

[ptourkin]

+1. My Macs typically return 7 years of productive life. However, if you are spending $300 for a product with a useful lifespan of 1.5 years, you are getting roughly the same number of years per dollar as a Mac. A Mac may give you 5 to 7 years of life, but will run you $1000 to $1400.

Computers are one of those things that improve so much over time, it's nice to always have a new one, and three hundred dollars is a tiny amount of money. I'd say just keep doing what you are doing, and when the computer starts going wonky after 18 months, take comfort that you're getting exactly what you paid for, in exactly the right proportion.

I've always used Windows and Linux for work and home but I recently refurbed my SO's 2011 Macbook Pro with an SSD and more memory and I'll never go back. It's just a better machine and as a Linux user, I can dig around in the OS if I need to. With the SSD, performance is on par with anything I've used lately. I pulled the optical drive and moved the old hd over to that slot for storage. This is a 4 year old machine that is still going strong after a little upgrade. In contrast, my 2012 Samsung Windows box is useless.

If I had to use Win - the Dell XPS line in either 13 or 15 is the way to go.

[fkelly]

http://www.sagernotebook.com/home.php

or xoticpc.com

Use a menu to build up the computer you want. They will come without crap ware installed. I have a 2008 sager notebook that still runs fine. It was my mistake to ever put Windows 8 on it because that killed a driver or two but the basic computer is great. I have a new Sager I bought a month ago with Windows 10 and it's flawless.

I bought a HP laptop back last a year ago and set it up for a friend. Delivered in October 2014 but looking at the software dates, it had been built 6 months before that. Windows was thus 6 months out of date. 2 full days updating and deleting the crap ware that the HP contractor (all this stuff is outsourced) had put on it. No option that I know of to get any brand name PC with just the operating system on it.

Get your operating system and some working space on a SSD drive. Get a normal spinning disk as back up.

[Megalodon]

Low end laptops almost certainly don't come with enough RAM or an SSD.

Applications and OSes often get bloated over time so sometimes it's best not to upgrade. Even websites get bloated as well and run slower. Some sites will bog down even the newest machines unless you block scripts and other junk.

[oldguy00]

Been using laptops for work and personal use for close to 20 years...

My humble opinions:

Don't be fooled by high 'specs' (processor, ram etc) on a low price machine. There is a lot more to a good laptop than the processor and ram inside. In fact, you really don't need a high end processor for general web surfing, etc. An i5 should be more than good enough for anything. Pay attention to build quality, the feel of the keyboard, the look of the screen, what the case is built of, how flexible (as in how easily it bends - cheap plastic) it is, etc.

The ones I've had the best experience with:

1. Macbook Pro. It just works. The metal case can get hot if you hold it on your lap, but otherwise it works great. Of course you have to be OK with using the Apple OS, although you can also install Windows on a mac via Bootcamp.
2. My favorite, Alienware. Yes, its a Dell product, but in my experience (2 of them), it is way higher quality than most of their laptops, superb keyboard, screen and case. They also come with dedicated video cards in case you have a desire to do any gaming.

AND, regardless of which laptop you go with, either get it with, or upgrade it to, a SSD drive. This is the biggest upgrade you can make to a laptop right now. BIG boost in speed, way more than you'll notice by upgrading the RAM or processor.

Cheers (typing this on an Alienware 17)

[NHAero]

Two cents on the Windows experience on a Mac - I have run Parallels instead of using Bootcamp and it works fine for the not-gaming, not 3D graphics software I run on it (chiefly energy-related stuff). It's nice to have my Windows apps and Mac apps both open and usable.

[Tommasini53]

Wow! many many thanks for the replies as they have provided me with important points consider. I have learned over the years that Forumites are a wealth of information. Ah, if only the Oval Office and Congress could have access to this brain-trust :beer:

[AJM100]

Switched to macs over a decade ago and never looked back. Macbook Pro IMO. The OS is so much more stable and you don't need anti virus software. Worth the investment. :hello::banana::beer:

[tumbler]

Ay reason not to consider a Mac? (My 2010 MacBook Air is still going strong)

+1. I've had a lot of computers, and none have been as solid and reliable as my Macbook Air (though I think mine is 2011). It was a stock build, don't think I upgraded anything... but it's still incredibly smooth and snappy. Startup takes a few seconds... same with opening bigger files, Photoshop, whatever... it's just an awesome computer with good software, good hardware, and a beautiful solid build. Mine easily has several more years of life left in it... and even then, I'll probably pass it down to my parents (who tend to buy a $300 POS from Walmart every other year).

[paredown]

I'm a fan of the earlier generation IBM Thinkpads--now Lenovo. Great support, solid cases, decent specs. My wife's first generation Lenovo Yoga 13 has been excellent, although after three years of continuous use (and a lot of it) the CPU fan started making a racket. Still a solid case--and while not an easy repair, the fan was swappable.

I recently worked on a friend's Toshiba Satellite (i5 generation)--very poorly made IMO--the screen ripped free of the case after an accident--and there are lot of broken ones on eBay with similar problems.

Dell has been hit or miss in my experience--some great machines, some pretty awful.

I have always loved the Macbooks but I would not pay the premium for one.

[Len J]

Look at a surface pro. Hard stop. Best PC I've ever owned, and the lightest.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[d_douglas]

I am a Mac guy, but have used PCs for work for years. For the last two years on my job, I have been using a small MacBook Pro , and they are simply better computers, in my opinion.

My personal MacBook Pro still works pretty well, though the battery lasts only an hour. My work laptop is a 2013 MBook pro and is such a solid machine.

I know some people hate Apple products on principle. (My brother in law ) but they are better machines than PCs on the whole. They cost. 20%more than a nice PC, but are twice the machine.

It's mostly subjective, but I have had great experiences with my Macs.

[gb2319]

I'll say stay away from Dell. Pieces of junk from my experience - both at home and work (and friends).
Very cheaply made.
Battery died fast on our laptop. Would overheat very easily too.

They seem to be good value (ie cheaper) but are a headache if you are tech support for the household.

I equate them to Alibaba carbon bikes.

I've seen some terrible Dell laptops, but they have generally been the ones that they mass produced for big box stores.

The ones that I've purchased straight from Dell (and direct to consumer has always been their preferred business model), have always been outstanding. I don't think I'd consider Dell a "cheap" brand either. The alibaba comparison isn't fair IMO.

Either way, I have a 7000 series Inspiron and an XPS 13 right now, and both are outstanding. Nothing bad to say about either. The XPS is probably the best laptop I've ever owned, in fact.

OP, I highly recommend paying a bit more and getting a laptop with a solid state drive. SSDs are pretty cheap now, and it is so worth it. Especially on laptops when things like startup (or wakeup) time is such a big determiner of the user experience.

If you dont want to pay the premium for SSD up front, you can always swap out the hard drive later, too. The only downside there is that when you clone the drive before swapping it out, the factory recovery image can't be copied over. So if you ever need it, you'll need to pull it off your old drive. Not a huge deal though. Especially if you are capable of swapping out the hard drive by yourself in the first place.

[oldpotatoe]

Switched to macs over a decade ago and never looked back. Macbook Pro IMO. The OS is so much more stable and you don't need anti virus software. Worth the investment. :hello::banana::beer:

I have an Ibook G4, and altho it needs a battery, it STILL works just great. Bought it used about 12 years ago.

[weisan]

Just cloned the hard drive of my daughter's four-year-old Acer over to a SSD drive a day ago. She's sticking to Win 7. Paid $63 for Crucial 250Gb SSD. Used the Acronis True Image software to do the cloning.

Zero issue with the whole cloning process. Easy.
Just let it run for couple of hours.
Boot up 0-60 in 3 sec.
Best upgrade per $ - even better than faster processor or more RAM.

Bought a refurbished Acer Chromebook C720 for a hundred bucks two years ago, upgraded the SSD from 16 to 128 GB $60, 6.5-7 hrs true battery life, retained charge for more than a week, did 95% of what I need when I get in front of a computer. I like it so much that I went on eBay and bought two more listed as "Not working, parts only" for like 30 bucks, fixed them up (one needs new battery $16, the other new screen $30), also upgraded to bigger capacity SSD, works like new, now become general-purpose PCs that get passed around in the family for netflix viewing, web surfing, email checking, put a whole bunch of movies in the SSD, can even connect through HDMI to the big screen for movie showing for the whole family, paceline foruming :D

Cheap cheap, works great, stable, none of the stupid windows stuff happening.
Wanna to play games? Get a desktop, P/S or X-box
I think most households would be happy just with the chromebooks. Windows laptops - over priced (high end) and practically throwaway (low end), unstable, packed with bloatwares, lousy battery life.

[Bostic]

2) is it worth shopping for a model with no 3rd party software? microsoft refers to it as "signiture" line;

uses: internet communications, spreadsheets, some gaming
as always, thanks in advance :)

If you are going to stick with Windows, I would purchase one of the signature line laptops on the Microsoft site. The extra junk software that gets placed on machines from Best Buy, Office Depot, Fry's, etc is not present and your day one experience will be much better. Sure you could buy a $500 dollar laptop from Best Buy, but then if you want it running efficiently you'll spend all morning downloading drivers for video, network, sound, card reader, bios, controller, wifi card, usb 3, etc. then hunt and peck online to figure out what the few remaining exclamation marks are in the device manager for unknown devices. I used to suggest to boot up the machine normally and take a screen shot of the device manager fully expanded to make that clean install process somewhat easier once Windows is blown away and installed from a freshly formatted drive.

The company I work for made a switch for all users to go to Mac, no choice in the matter. The only team still on Windows is Finance due to how much better Excel 2010 and 2013 are compared to the Mac Excel 2011 and 2016 versions. Ultimately they still might get migrated and have to use Windows under VMWare Fusion or Boot Camp if they want all 16 gigs of memory for the Windows site.

If you switch to Mac, spend the most you can afford and then a little bit more. For the models with all flash storage, you can't add anything later so you might regret only getting a 128gb flash storage.

Mac OS X gets updated every year now. FWIW Marketing now drives Apple much more than anything else. El Capitan and Yosemite were no where near as stable as previous versions when they first came out. "Just ship it and fix it later." Not a reason to not switch to a Mac but something that irks me.

Try to get a solid state drive, the performance is better, much much better. You can always use a standard external disk for storage.

Acronis is a nice solution, I use their products for all my Windows backup and restore needs.

[shovelhd]

If you're interested in using Zwift, get the best graphics subsystem that you can afford.

[oldguy00]

If you're interested in using Zwift, get the best graphics subsystem that you can afford.

Really??
All due respect, I doubt it... If Zwift is any type of a hog on system resources, then -maybe- it is ram or processor.
People often confuse what a graphics card does.
All a graphics card will do is determine how many frames per second a video game will run at. Zwift is no where near as demanding as a typical modern video game.

[oldguy00]

I'm a fan of the earlier generation IBM Thinkpads--now Lenovo. Great support, solid cases, decent specs. My wife's first generation Lenovo Yoga 13 has been excellent, although after three years of continuous use (and a lot of it) the CPU fan started making a racket. Still a solid case--and while not an easy repair, the fan was swappable.

I recently worked on a friend's Toshiba Satellite (i5 generation)--very poorly made IMO--the screen ripped free of the case after an accident--and there are lot of broken ones on eBay with similar problems.

Dell has been hit or miss in my experience--some great machines, some pretty awful.

I have always loved the Macbooks but I would not pay the premium for one.

We have an S series Thinkpad from 2 years ago. Honestly, its garbage, terrible. Granted, it is one of their lower end lines.
When I started using laptops 20 years ago, one of my first was a thinkpad 770. Damn, those were nice!!! As were the 600 series thinkpads. Those two had the nicest keyboards I've ever seen on laptops.

[NYCfixie]

I share this information as a person who has been in IT for more than 20 years. I have purchased and supported 10s of thousands of laptops.

Mac versus PC is a personal choice and/or based on what software you need. I use a PC at home because I need Quicken and do not want to deal with Parallels or Fusion on a Mac.

At work I have used a Mac when more of the environment I support is Mac. I have used Windows when more of the environment I support is Windows. They both work really well especially considering that 95% of what people do with a computer these days is browser based so the Mac versus PC conversation is boring. Pick what you like.

As for cost, I am sure you know that it is not fair to compare a $300 Windows Laptop to a $1500 (or more) Mac laptop. You get what you pay for. Compare a $1500 windows laptop to a $1500 macbook solely on hardware, and the PC will always give you more for your money.

Also, enterprise PCs (sold by cdw, pc connection, dell's non-consumer site) will always be better, last longer, have a better warranty, and usually less crapware than consumer models.


Last, no matter what PC you buy, use this:
https://www.pcdecrapifier.com/

[OtayBW]

^
Good advice and a well-balanced statement. I especially appreciate the comment about PC vs Mac being a personal choice, often related to what s/w you need to use.

[grawk]

We have an S series Thinkpad from 2 years ago. Honestly, its garbage, terrible. Granted, it is one of their lower end lines.
When I started using laptops 20 years ago, one of my first was a thinkpad 770. Damn, those were nice!!! As were the 600 series thinkpads. Those two had the nicest keyboards I've ever seen on laptops.
Gotta be careful with lenovo. The S series isn't a thinkpad, it's one of their budget lines.

[shovelhd]

Really??
All due respect, I doubt it... If Zwift is any type of a hog on system resources, then -maybe- it is ram or processor.
People often confuse what a graphics card does.
All a graphics card will do is determine how many frames per second a video game will run at. Zwift is no where near as demanding as a typical modern video game.

He was considering a budget laptop.

Zwift can consume a lot of video resources. Not FPS level but gamers don't use off the shelf laptops for those demands. It depends on your monitor's capabilities and video chip. Zwift will let you reduce resolution if your system can't handle it.

I bet I've designed more chips than you :)

[Tommasini53]

I share this information as a person who has been in IT for more than 20 years. I have purchased and supported 10s of thousands of laptops.

Mac versus PC is a personal choice and/or based on what software you need. I use a PC at home because I need Quicken and do not want to deal with Parallels or Fusion on a Mac.

At work I have used a Mac when more of the environment I support is Mac. I have used Windows when more of the environment I support is Windows. They both work really well especially considering that 95% of what people do with a computer these days is browser based so the Mac versus PC conversation is boring. Pick what you like.

As for cost, I am sure you know that it is not fair to compare a $300 Windows Laptop to a $1500 (or more) Mac laptop. You get what you pay for. Compare a $1500 windows laptop to a $1500 macbook solely on hardware, and the PC will always give you more for your money.

Also, enterprise PCs (sold by cdw, pc connection, dell's non-consumer site) will always be better, last longer, have a better warranty, and usually less crapware than consumer models.


Last, no matter what PC you buy, use this:
https://www.pcdecrapifier.com/

Many thanks for the education. :beer:

[hoonjr]

I can't recommend speccing a SSD in whatever laptop you get enough. These days it's a no brainer.

[rkhatibi]

A lot of good information in here and I'll try not to rehash. In regards to the Dell line you can think of it like (why hasn't anyone done this yet?) the following


Dell Inspiron (budget) => Sora
Dell Inspiron (standard) => Tiagra
Dell Latitude => 105
Dell XPS => Ultegra


As other people have mentioned the budget laptop aren't often worth it. By using cheaper parts you might be limited to 4GB of RAM (rather than 8 or 16GB), no HDMI port, low end or no dedicated video card, CPU from 2 generations ago, less cache on CPU which makes it less efficient, screen with low resolution, etc.

Most manufactures have their consumer line, business (usually best bang of the buck), and high end. For my extended family I buy a 13-17" Latitude off the Dell outlet site and try to use a 20-30% coupon which they post to their Twitter account (https://twitter.com/delloutlet). Always get the three year warranty.

On the outlet site it's best not to care what RAM and HD the machine ships with, just make sure the CPU, screen resolution, etc are what you want. Then buy the HD/RAM from a third party and put the standard drive in a case to use as your backup. Crucial for the RAM and whatever SSD is currently recommended. SSDs are iterating quickly so always worth doing some investigation to see what's the best price/performance is at the moment.

As other people have said, just get the SSD. So much better and no moving parts to cause data loss when you drop your laptop.

[shovelhd]

SSD's have their own data loss issues. Time will tell if enough redundancy was built into today's consumer devices in order for them to retain data for 10+ years.

[paredown]

A lot of good information in here and I'll try not to rehash. In regards to the Dell line you can think of it like (why hasn't anyone done this yet?) the following


Dell Inspiron (budget) => Sora
Dell Inspiron (standard) => Tiagra
Dell Latitude => 105
Dell XPS => Ultegra


As other people have mentioned the budget laptop aren't often worth it. By using cheaper parts you might be limited to 4GB of RAM (rather than 8 or 16GB), no HDMI port, low end or no dedicated video card, CPU from 2 generations ago, less cache on CPU which makes it less efficient, screen with low resolution, etc.

Most manufactures have their consumer line, business (usually best bang of the buck), and high end. For my extended family I buy a 13-17" Latitude off the Dell outlet site and try to use a 20-30% coupon which they post to their Twitter account (https://twitter.com/delloutlet). Always get the three year warranty.

On the outlet site it's best not to care what RAM and HD the machine ships with, just make sure the CPU, screen resolution, etc are what you want. Then buy the HD/RAM from a third party and put the standard drive in a case to use as your backup. Crucial for the RAM and whatever SSD is currently recommended. SSDs are iterating quickly so always worth doing some investigation to see what's the best price/performance is at the moment.

As other people have said, just get the SSD. So much better and no moving parts to cause data loss when you drop your laptop.

Nice rundown on the Dell world--and the Dell Outlet store and business class machines were usually my first stop when setting up small businesses.

[ltwtsculler91]

I have an Ibook G4, and altho it needs a battery, it STILL works just great. Bought it used about 12 years ago.

I'm actually running an old iBook G4 as my second machine, also 12 years old and going strong. Upgraded the hard drive to a faster spinning 120gb a few years back and now it is my email/music machine in my room.

My main laptop is a top of the line 1st gen MacBook Air with a SSD that is still running well 7 years later. My only issue is the screen not working so it gets hooked up to a monitor, but that is due to me running it (and my bag) over with our team van after a race so not really an issue with the machine..

I also have a first gen iPad and an iPad mini which get used for the bulk of my web surfing and other tasks that aren't Word or Excel based, and provide a much cheaper alternative for the more basic home/time wasting things we do on computers

[downtube]

Love my Mac Book Air, the built in trackpad is so easy and quick to use. I hate having to using a mouse or IBM style pad. I have the full microsoft office suite on mine, excel, word and powerpoint ect. This gives me lots of options

[dalava]

I share this information as a person who has been in IT for more than 20 years. I have purchased and supported 10s of thousands of laptops.

Mac versus PC is a personal choice and/or based on what software you need. I use a PC at home because I need Quicken and do not want to deal with Parallels or Fusion on a Mac.

At work I have used a Mac when more of the environment I support is Mac. I have used Windows when more of the environment I support is Windows. They both work really well especially considering that 95% of what people do with a computer these days is browser based so the Mac versus PC conversation is boring. Pick what you like.

As for cost, I am sure you know that it is not fair to compare a $300 Windows Laptop to a $1500 (or more) Mac laptop. You get what you pay for. Compare a $1500 windows laptop to a $1500 macbook solely on hardware, and the PC will always give you more for your money.

Also, enterprise PCs (sold by cdw, pc connection, dell's non-consumer site) will always be better, last longer, have a better warranty, and usually less crapware than consumer models.


Last, no matter what PC you buy, use this:
https://www.pcdecrapifier.com/

I am not sure if I agree with this. There are quite a bit of user experience difference between a Mac and PC laptop: these differences may not matter to someone who's tech savvy like you, but to an average person who simply just want to use their computer for web browsing, some word processor or spreadsheet work, and may be some entertainment, the need to deal with the amount of bloatware, walware, spyware, etc. on a Windows machine is simply overwhelming.

[NYCfixie]

I am not sure if I agree with this. There are quite a bit of user experience difference between a Mac and PC laptop: these differences may not matter to someone who's tech savvy like you, but to an average person who simply just want to use their computer for web browsing, some word processor or spreadsheet work, and may be some entertainment, the need to deal with the amount of bloatware, walware, spyware, etc. on a Windows machine is simply overwhelming.

Do not want to start a flame war but it is all of my experience that tells me otherwise. Macs are great; I stared my career in advertising supporting them. Windows is great too. If people use a Mac more, they will learn the intricacies of that OS, be more familiar with it, and thus recommend it more often. If people use Windows more they will learn the intricacies of that OS, be more familiar with it, and thus recommend it more often. I am in the unique position of having personally used both at home for many years and professionally supported both at work for many years and as such I must remain 100% neutral on OS. This experience is about supporting end users with varying levels of tech savvy-ness.

For many years I only used a Mac at home because Quicken started on the Mac. When Quicken became a better product on the PC I switched to Windows because that was my primary need at home.

At my current job we are 90% Mac so I am on a Mac. At my previous role we were 85% Windows so I was on a PC. I have been a Technology Director for many years and usually have my staff on Macs because they can also run Windows legally via Fusion or Parallels. If Mac could legally run Windows, I would have them on Windows computers because they would still have both OS'es at a cheaper price point for hardware. It just does not matter, each OS has its issues and in 2015 the Mac versus Windows conversation is boring. Pick what you like.

Again, 95% of what people do is browser based so they could just use a chromebook.

I stand by my original statement, Mac versus Windows is personal preference and/or should be based on what software someone needs to use.

I like Mac.
I like Windows.
I mostly like Linux.

[tbike4]

If I had to have a Windows machine it would be the XPS 13. Other wise I will continue with my MBP and 2 very large monitors connected to it. I was in the Microsoft store at the mall today and saw the 34" Dell curved monitor, WOW. Hook me up on an XPS 13 with that. :hello:

I work in IT and we switched to 27" iMacs last year running parallels to do Windows tasks when needed. When the software we use is web based it doesn't matter. A few printers don't have Mac drivers but you live with that.

There will always be Apple haters and I can see some of the reasons why. I use my PC as well but prefer my Mac. SSD is a must have IMO.

[dalava]

Do not want to start a flame war but it is all of my experience that tells me otherwise. Macs are great; I stared my career in advertising supporting them. Windows is great too. If people use a Mac more, they will learn the intricacies of that OS, be more familiar with it, and thus recommend it more often. If people use Windows more they will learn the intricacies of that OS, be more familiar with it, and thus recommend it more often. I am in the unique position of having personally used both at home for many years and professionally supported both at work for many years and as such I must remain 100% neutral on OS. This experience is about supporting end users with varying levels of tech savvy-ness.

For many years I only used a Mac at home because Quicken started on the Mac. When Quicken became a better product on the PC I switched to Windows because that was my primary need at home.

At my current job we are 90% Mac so I am on a Mac. At my previous role we were 85% Windows so I was on a PC. I have been a Technology Director for many years and usually have my staff on Macs because they can also run Windows legally via Fusion or Parallels. If Mac could legally run Windows, I would have them on Windows computers because they would still have both OS'es at a cheaper price point for hardware. It just does not matter, each OS has its issues and in 2015 the Mac versus Windows conversation is boring. Pick what you like.

Again, 95% of what people do is browser based so they could just use a chromebook.

I stand by my original statement, Mac versus Windows is personal preference and/or should be based on what software someone needs to use.

I like Mac.
I like Windows.
I mostly like Linux.

Not trying to start a flame war with the old Mac vs PC arguments, but simply want to point out for an average computer user, Mac/OS X is simply miles better.

I am also curious at why you like Linux the best, is that for support, or doing development or server platform, or as a general purpose computing device, etc. Again, for average user, a Linux machine is decidedly not a friendly one.

[rnhood]

Not trying to start a flame war with the old Mac vs PC arguments, but simply want to point out for an average computer user, Mac/OS X is simply miles better.



I like and own the Mac but when I was working, I had a PC also. For someone starting out that will be using the computer for work, generally speaking a Windows machine is best.

[Rada]

Not trying to start a flame war with the old Mac vs PC arguments, but simply want to point out for an average computer user, Mac/OS X is simply miles better.

I am also curious at why you like Linux the best, is that for support, or doing development or server platform, or as a general purpose computing device, etc. Again, for average user, a Linux machine is decidedly not a friendly one.

Don't agree at all concerning Linux. I have been using Linux distros for years and specifically Mint for the last few years and personally think it is a much better OS than Microsoft or Mac. I agree with the statement of others that it best to use what OS you are most comfortable with.

[fuzzalow]

I am not sure if I agree with this. There are quite a bit of user experience difference between a Mac and PC laptop: these differences may not matter to someone who's tech savvy like you, but to an average person who simply just want to use their computer for web browsing, some word processor or spreadsheet work, and may be some entertainment, the need to deal with the amount of bloatware, walware, spyware, etc. on a Windows machine is simply overwhelming.

Yeah, like anything, there are gradients and complexities for how things happen.

From a standpoint of the user experience, I'd agree that Mac or Windows may not make much difference because it is wholly dependent on what the computer is used for and the familiarity of the user to the desktop environment of either Mac or Win. Simple activity in consuming of content needs nothing more than a tablet or a browser running on a desktop or laptop.

From a maintenance and sys admin perspective, IMO Win is just a never ending battle zone for viruses, nagware, OS system file corruptions and sytem backup, recover & restore procedures.

Before my family switched over to Macs years ago, this was the nonsense of my conscripted occupation as fuzz-family sys admin. I am not in the computer profession but I know enough about computers to tread water. And Windows is a skill set unto itself which IMO has very little to do with knowing how to run a computer as much as it is how to run & admin Windows OS and software. What a gigantic PITA. Avast anti-virus, Kerio Firewall and other defenses could only get you so far. And the family uses the PC in any normal manner without paranoia as they should and Windows was still, shall I say, a commitment.

A Mac is descended from Unix in its OS, a Windows box will always be a Windows box.

[fuzzalow]

Don't agree at all concerning Linux. I have been using Linux distros for years and specifically Mint for the last few years and personally think it is a much better OS than Microsoft or Mac. I agree with the statement of others that it best to use what OS you are most comfortable with.

I use Gentoo Linux and Unix boxes going back to SunOS on SparcStations. Linux is not for general population computing. Not stable enough and not enough commercial support to make it an appliance, which is how it must be for the general public.

The general public is not tech savvy. They are not interested to know the details. And I don't blame them. IMO it is better that they DID know because this is the modern, digital world we live in. But the complexity is overwhelming and I'd rather they just master looking in the rear view mirror occasionally when they drive a car.

[grawk]

I can understand how a gentoo user could think linux wasn't ready for prime time. SUSE, Redhat, and Ubuntu are all perfectly useable as a desktop even for non-power users these days. My 16 year old daughter switched to ubuntu for her day to day computing last month after having to reinstall windows for the 2nd time in 2 years due to viruses. She's much happier, and just uses windows for gaming, and not for anything else.

[fuzzalow]

I can understand how a gentoo user could think linux wasn't ready for prime time. SUSE, Redhat, and Ubuntu are all perfectly useable as a desktop even for non-power users these days.

HaHa, touche and a fair strike on a point well taken. I like doing things the hard way I suppose.

OK. I was hoping that Redhat would allow Linux to become viable for general computing. I like Macs but it only makes it better if there is choice so not everything is Windows based because I find the MSFT monetization of the computer platform repellent. In fairness, the same might be said of AAPL also but it feels less exploitative to me in the IOS environment because it is predominantly centered on the iTunes app as the portal to AAPL's commercial partnerships.

[NYCfixie]

Do not want to start a flame war but it is all of my experience that tells me otherwise. Macs are great; I stared my career in advertising supporting them. Windows is great too. If people use a Mac more, they will learn the intricacies of that OS, be more familiar with it, and thus recommend it more often. If people use Windows more they will learn the intricacies of that OS, be more familiar with it, and thus recommend it more often. I am in the unique position of having personally used both at home for many years and professionally supported both at work for many years and as such I must remain 100% neutral on OS. This experience is about supporting end users with varying levels of tech savvy-ness.

For many years I only used a Mac at home because Quicken started on the Mac. When Quicken became a better product on the PC I switched to Windows because that was my primary need at home.

At my current job we are 90% Mac so I am on a Mac. At my previous role we were 85% Windows so I was on a PC. I have been a Technology Director for many years and usually have my staff on Macs because they can also run Windows legally via Fusion or Parallels. If Mac could legally run Windows, I would have them on Windows computers because they would still have both OS'es at a cheaper price point for hardware. It just does not matter, each OS has its issues and in 2015 the Mac versus Windows conversation is boring. Pick what you like.

Again, 95% of what people do is browser based so they could just use a chromebook.

I stand by my original statement, Mac versus Windows is personal preference and/or should be based on what software someone needs to use.

I like Mac.
I like Windows.
I mostly like Linux.

Not trying to start a flame war with the old Mac vs PC arguments, but simply want to point out for an average computer user, Mac/OS X is simply miles better.

I am also curious at why you like Linux the best, is that for support, or doing development or server platform, or as a general purpose computing device, etc. Again, for average user, a Linux machine is decidedly not a friendly one.


Nobody should speak for all "average computer users". I would not argue that you find OSX "simply better" because you are commenting on yourself but you should not speak for anyone else because we all have different strengths/knowledge/needs/wants when it comes to computers.

I shared earlier based on my experience of supporting 10s of thousands of users and 10s of thousands of computers but if you go back and re-read my earlier post you will see that I did not actually say that Mac or Windows is better. I simply said the conversation is boring and that people should choose what they like. As in, each person should make their own individual informed decision based on what works for them and not what works best for others.

I think you may have misread my post. I did not write "I like Linux the most", I wrote "I mostly like Linux" which implies that I do not like it as much as the others.

[Len J]

I often wonder, when people slamWindows for being highly difficult to maintain and keep running, when the last time they actually used it. I haven't had a virus or had to reboot to correct an issue in several years. It just works. IME.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[makoti]

FWIW...
I like Windows. Using 7, will upgrade to 10. Skipped 8 mostly because I saw no need for it.
I've poked around on a few friends' Macs, and I just don't see the ease of use. They drive me crazy. Mostly because I don't use them enough. IOW, whatever you get you will learn and will be fine. Neither system is drastically more difficult than the other.
As for brands, I have had IBM for ever, most recently a Lenovo. I think the Thinkpads are solid machines. If you're doing a lot of movie watching/game playing, you can do better with other lines of Lenovo or another brand.
Spend what you can afford for what you want, but be prepared to drop more than you originally expected to get something right for your needs.
Watch the sales at the brand websites as well as the usual buying places.
Just my normal computer-non-savvy opinion.

[rkhatibi]

I've enjoyed the OS sparing particularly for the Gentoo Linux memories. I was an active community member from 02-06. If you asked questions relating to Postfix, Apache, Mysql, and other common daemons on the forum, I probably answered it. I even built a mildly successful startup on Gentoo in that time period.

Stability in a modern consumer OS is directly related to the drivers and quality of the hardware. Windows 7 on any business grade or better laptop is just as stable if not more than OSX (at least for my very strange set of workloads). In my case I actually see more problems with my working set of software on OSX than 7. I do agree that the Windows ecosystem is doing themselves no favors by failing to hold OEM OS images and hardware to some reasonable standard. Apple tightly controls this, but forces a very premium price.

My only thoughts on interface, The only "intuitive" interface is the nipple. After that it's all learned. (http://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/misc/nipple.html) Switched to OSX at my current job. 18 months later I'm still unimpressed, generally annoyed by the erratic behavior of the windowing system, and surprised at how many UI tweaks are simply unavailable. Perhaps I'll continue to adjust.

[ptourkin]

Don't agree at all concerning Linux. I have been using Linux distros for years and specifically Mint for the last few years and personally think it is a much better OS than Microsoft or Mac. I agree with the statement of others that it best to use what OS you are most comfortable with.

Agree. Mint is easy enough for a newb but powerful enough for anyone and will run superfast on a box that Windows 7 would choke to death. Best way to get a new laptop is to put Mint on your old one.

[Rada]

I can understand how a gentoo user could think linux wasn't ready for prime time. SUSE, Redhat, and Ubuntu are all perfectly useable as a desktop even for non-power users these days. My 16 year old daughter switched to ubuntu for her day to day computing last month after having to reinstall windows for the 2nd time in 2 years due to viruses. She's much happier, and just uses windows for gaming, and not for anything else.

I used to use Ubuntu until they started Unity desktop. Mint is a derivative of Ubuntu, but uses a better desktop interface IMO. Safer and more stable than I've found MS or Mac. It has also become a snap to upgrade, unlike MS or Mac. I agree that software is not as abundant. Gaming is becoming much better with Steam covering a quickly growing number of titles.

[Rada]

Agree. Mint is easy enough for a newb but powerful enough for anyone and will run superfast on a box that Windows 7 would choke to death. Best way to get a new laptop is to put Mint on your old one.

Exactly what I did last year when my mom was going to toss her old lap top that was running MS Vista.

[fuzzalow]

I often wonder, when people slamWindows for being highly difficult to maintain and keep running, when the last time they actually used it. I haven't had a virus or had to reboot to correct an issue in several years. It just works. IME.

I dunno what you are getting at here. Are you suggesting here that Windows has become better over time at resisting malware, viruses and other system attacks and instabilities? The consensus in this thread suggests otherwise. As I posted, Windows has not been part of our computer environment for years. Maybe it has gotten better since then, I don't know.

I can only counter your anecdotal proof with my own anecdote. Both useless as evidence, but you went down the path of folderol first ;).

Use whatever computer software you wanna use, I don't care. I have no axe to grind against MSFT, I am long MSFT and even if their business model is disagreeable to me, I will cheer them on from the perspective of my own financial self-interest.

[Len J]

I dunno what you are getting at here. Are you suggesting here that Windows has become better over time at resisting malware, viruses and other system attacks and instabilities? The consensus in this thread suggests otherwise. As I posted, Windows has not been part of our computer environment for years. Maybe it has gotten better since then, I don't know.

I can only counter your anecdotal proof with my own anecdote. Both useless as evidence, but you went down the path of folderol first ;).

Use whatever computer software you wanna use, I don't care. I have no axe to grind against MSFT, I am long MSFT and even if their business model is disagreeable to me, I will cheer them on from the perspective of my own financial self-interest.

So your answer is, you haven't used it for years.... got it.

[fuzzalow]

I ask your forbearance in my quoting of my own posts.

Before my family switched over to Macs years ago, this was the nonsense of my conscripted occupation as fuzz-family sys admin.

I dunno what you are getting at here. Are you suggesting here that Windows has become better over time at resisting malware, viruses and other system attacks and instabilities? The consensus in this thread suggests otherwise. As I posted, Windows has not been part of our computer environment for years. Maybe it has gotten better since then, I don't know.

So your answer is, you haven't used it for years.... got it.

RIF. Reading is fundamental. C'mon, ya wanna be smart-aleck means ya gotta keep up.