Mixing Shimano Road and MTB Drivetrain

[Lovetoclimb]

I have been tasked with building a Soma Wolverine as a bike-packing and monster cross type build. My inclination is to to stick with drop bars and brifters as opposed to DT shifters or flat bars and thumbie mounted shifters or trigger shifters. With that in mind and an attempt to keep this build to a certain budget, I am thinking of doing the following:

(1)
Ultegra/105 (6800/5800) 11s w/ XT 10s:
- 105 brifters
- Ultegra front and rear long cage derailleurs
- 105 cassette 11-32 range
- 105 chain
- Ultegra BB
- XT 2x10 crankset (10 speed 40/28 gearing) <- this is the wildcard as to how well it will work with an otherwise 11s road setup ....

(2)
Ultegra/105 (6700/5700) 10s w/ XT 10s:
Basically same as above only the biggest cassette range I can get is 12-30 and the generally poor aesthetics and feel of Shimano 10s era brifters

(3)
Ultegra/105 (6800/5800) 11s:
- 105 brifters
- Ultegra front and rear long cage derailleurs
- 105 cassette 11-32 range
- 105 chain
- Ultegra BB
- Ultegra CX11 crankset and swap out the 36t ring for a 34t ring

- Brakes TBD, but taking suggestions for favorite mechanical disc options with Shimano brifters

[weisan]

Stick with 9 speed and you will stay happy lovepal, that's all I am gonna say. :D

I use 9-speed everything except MTB XT rear deraileur, it works splendid with 11-34 cog in the back.

[oldpotatoe]

I have been tasked with building a Soma Wolverine as a bike-packing and monster cross type build. My inclination is to to stick with drop bars and brifters as opposed to DT shifters or flat bars and thumbie mounted shifters or trigger shifters. With that in mind and an attempt to keep this build to a certain budget, I am thinking of doing the following:

(1)
Ultegra/105 (6800/5800) 11s w/ XT 10s:
- 105 brifters
- Ultegra front and rear long cage derailleurs
- 105 cassette 11-32 range
- 105 chain
- Ultegra BB
- XT 2x10 crankset (10 speed 40/28 gearing) <- this is the wildcard as to how well it will work with an otherwise 11s road setup ....

(2)
Ultegra/105 (6700/5700) 10s w/ XT 10s:
Basically same as above only the biggest cassette range I can get is 12-30 and the generally poor aesthetics and feel of Shimano 10s era brifters

(3)
Ultegra/105 (6800/5800) 11s:
- 105 brifters
- Ultegra front and rear long cage derailleurs
- 105 cassette 11-32 range
- 105 chain
- Ultegra BB
- Ultegra CX11 crankset and swap out the 36t ring for a 34t ring

- Brakes TBD, but taking suggestions for favorite mechanical disc options with Shimano brifters

I think it depends on how low of gearing you want. A 28t small ring vs a 34t small ring. The CX 11s cranks set will shift the best.

[guido]

I use an IRD 11 speed 11-36 cassette and a VO 50.4 46/30 crank with Ultegra 11 speed chain, 6800 GS RD/CX-70 FD and Ultegra 6800 brifters on my rando/gravel/adventure bikes and it works like a dream...

[kramnnim]

If you want to deal with ye olde 10 speed levers, you could use a 10sp MTB cassette, 11-32 or 11-34 or whatever. Might need a 9sp MTB RD.

[GRAVELBIKE]

If you want to deal with ye olde 10 speed levers, you could use a 10sp MTB cassette, 11-32 or 11-34 or whatever. Might need a 9sp MTB RD.

Shimano road 10s shifters are not compatible with the company's 10s mtb derailleurs, but will work with a 9s mtb rear mech.

[kramnnim]

Shimano road 10s shifters are not compatible with the company's 10s mtb derailleurs, but will work with a 9s mtb rear mech.

Yes, I was meaning that the OP might need a 9sp MTB RD rather than a long cage road RD.

[josephr]

I ran an XT rear derailleur with 9sp Sora on a bike last year and worked great through some tough adventures.

10sp-Currently running a Tiagra 4600 RD (long cage) with 5700 shifters and an 12-32 HG50 non-series cassette and system runs flawless. The 4600 is rated up to 34 and they make non-series HG50 cassette up to 34...just using what I had available. If I was buying, I would've gotten the 34.

[Gummee]

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but the nutshell is: anything works with anything 9sp (and 7/8sp too except D/A)

you need a 9sp mtn rear if you want to run big gears on your road 10sp

pretty much nothing crosses over 10sp and 11sp.

M

[Bradford]

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but the nutshell is: anything works with anything 9sp (and 7/8sp too except D/A)...

You have to watch out for the low normal/top normal differences in rear derailleurs. The rapid rise stuff doesn't work with road stuff.

I have settled on XT M750 RDs, which work with all my 10 speed road components.

[oldpotatoe]

You have to watch out for the low normal/top normal differences in rear derailleurs. The rapid rise stuff doesn't work with road stuff.

I have settled on XT M750 RDs, which work with all my 10 speed road components.

Actually 9s rapid rise rear Ders do work with 10s road shifters, just backwards, 'backfire plus'.

[osu cycling]

You could also do SRAM for a Shimano-compatible setup. Up through 10s, road and mtn were interchangeable WRT shifters and derailleurs. I've got an X9 RD and Dura-Ace FD running with Rival 10s drop bar shifters. Allows me to use an 11-36 cassette on the rear if I really need it, which provides quite the gear when combined with a compact up front.

[Lovetoclimb]

You could also do SRAM for a Shimano-compatible setup. Up through 10s, road and mtn were interchangeable WRT shifters and derailleurs. I've got an X9 RD and Dura-Ace FD running with Rival 10s drop bar shifters. Allows me to use an 11-36 cassette on the rear if I really need it, which provides quite the gear when combined with a compact up front.

I am just morally opposed to SRAM products.

[jeffwidman]

I run Ultegra 2x8 brifters together with a LX rear derailler and a 34t granny cog on the rear cassette with zero issues.

Very handy to have that bailout gear when towing the kid in the trailer uphill.

[91Bear]

I am just morally opposed to SRAM products.

Why is that? I've been lusting for the SRAM eTap stuff although it is prohibitively expensive.

I run Dura-Ace 9-speed shifters with 9-speed XP rear mech on my Gunnar CrossHairs.

[oldpotatoe]

Why is that? I've been lusting for the SRAM eTap stuff although it is prohibitively expensive.
.

And the shifting 'protocols' are prohibitively dum...imho of course. 4 batteries, sorry, don't get it. You'd think they would at least make a charging dock for all 4.

And 2016 Pro racing is all about disc brakes...and sram is all in on disc yet no disc etap.

[Gummee]

And the shifting 'protocols' are prohibitively dum...imho of course. 4 batteries, sorry, don't get it. You'd think they would at least make a charging dock for all 4.

And 2016 Pro racing is all about disc brakes...and sram is all in on disc yet no disc etap.

I won't mention the 'beta testing' their customers are doing on a constant basis.

I'll wait for wireless when Shimano comes out with it. I *know* it'll work 'cause Shimano's notoriously conservative when it comes to that kind of stuff

M

[DrSpoke]

I am just morally opposed to SRAM products.

Option 3 - The new Shimano 11-sp is amazingly good and the 5800 is almost a giveaway at UK prices - <$400. And the 6800 is pretty reasonable as well. What is the BB width? I didn't see it on the website. I'll assume 68mm but if 73 then mtn cranks otherwise compact or cx.

My buddy has a Diverge w/Ultegra mid RD and is has no issues with this setup. The Diverge has hydraulic brakes but he has a modified Ultegra 46/34 in front and an Ultegra mid in back.

Are you looking for lower gearing? I'm normally not a big fan of SRAM either but if you want low gearing I would suggest just getting their 11-36 11-sp road cassette and using that with the above setup. On the Diverge, it was plug and play w/only a B-screw adjustment and w/o the need for a new chain. If you do have issues, there is the Wolftooth RoadLink available to give you some extra clearance at the cassette.

I recently got a Ridley X-Trail and will be using the 11-36 also on one set of wheels. I plan to run 3 wheelsets - A wilderness adventure set with 40c tires and the 11-36 cassette, an urban adventure set with 32 to 35c tires and an 11-32 cassette and a road set with 25 or 28c tires and probably an 11-32 but maybe an 11-28 cassette. A lot of versatility there.

[bcroslin]

So, is there a way to mix and match Shimano 11 speed? 6800 with XT? Doesn't the mech 6800 shifters use the same 785 disc brakes as XT? If 6800 doesn't mix with XT, could you run a long cage 6800 RD? I'm dying to run drop bars on my Santa Cruz highball.

[gdw]

If you're planning to bikepack, ride with camping gear on dirt roads and trails, in a hilly region you'll need lower gears than those offered by the three setups you posted. Most experienced riders carry 20-30 pounds of camping gear, clothing, food, and water on a multiday trip and hauling that much extra weight on dirt is more taxing than road touring. Choose a setup with a low of around 20 or less gear inches and you'll be able to tackle most hills you encounter.

[muz]

How about Di2? Is it possible to use XTR Di2 with Ultegra?

[Gummee]

How about Di2? Is it possible to use XTR Di2 with Ultegra?

Officially? No

...but... I've heard of people that've done it

I also saw a jtek adaptor one a bike on ?bike radar? ?bike rumor? that had a road wheel with a 10sp cassette and mtn derailleur on it, but jtek's site doesn't have anything on it. Coulda been cobbled together.

M

[Lovetoclimb]

Alright I may have arrived at a solution after a fair bit of research. Here is the proposed setup for the adventure packing/touring build all 10s components:

7900 DT shifters
5700 (105) GS long cage rear derailleur (32 max cog capacity advertised)
7900 or 6700 front derailleur
XT 780 2x10 crankset with 40/28 gearing
XTR 980 BB
XT 780 cassette 11-32 range
XT 10s HG-X chain

The hope is the indexed shifting of the DT shifters will mate with the 10s era road derailleurs which will have no issues moving the mtb "specific" chain cassette and chainrings. I read something along these lines that Zinn did with one of his bikes without issue but he may be so used to experimenting and frankenbike setups that he just tunes out poor shifting and drivetrain noise.

Anyone done something similar to the above setup? Please weigh in.

[Gummee]

Alright I may have arrived at a solution after a fair bit of research. Here is the proposed setup for the adventure packing/touring build all 10s components:

7900 DT shifters
5700 (105) GS long cage rear derailleur (32 max cog capacity advertised)
7900 or 6700 front derailleur
XT 780 2x10 crankset with 40/28 gearing
XTR 980 BB
XT 780 cassette 11-32 range
XT 10s HG-X chain

The hope is the indexed shifting of the DT shifters will mate with the 10s era road derailleurs which will have no issues moving the mtb "specific" chain cassette and chainrings. I read something along these lines that Zinn did with one of his bikes without issue but he may be so used to experimenting and frankenbike setups that he just tunes out poor shifting and drivetrain noise.

Anyone done something similar to the above setup? Please weigh in.If you're going olde school, why not go all the way and get an XTR or XT 7/8/9 era rear derailleur too. It'll wrap more chain.

M

[Lovetoclimb]

If you're going olde school, why not go all the way and get an XTR or XT 7/8/9 era rear derailleur too. It'll wrap more chain.

M

Still not understanding how the 10 index clicks on a shifter mate with the 9s derailleur ... Keen to see it though. An XT rear would make more sense I agree.

[palincss]

Still not understanding how the 10 index clicks on a shifter mate with the 9s derailleur

The cable pull is identical, and the side-to-side range is also identical. Why wouldn't it work?

[Lovetoclimb]

The cable pull is identical, and the side-to-side range is also identical. Why wouldn't it work?

Does this also apply to 9s MTB front derailleurs being activated by 10s road shifters? (In my case the 7900 DT shifter). Or would I want to stick with the 7900/6700 front der? Or use a XT 10s front der since it will be a primarily XT drivetrain at this point....

[oldpotatoe]

Does this also apply to 9s MTB front derailleurs being activated by 10s road shifters? (In my case the 7900 DT shifter). Or would I want to stick with the 7900/6700 front der? Or use a XT 10s front der since it will be a primarily XT drivetrain at this point....

Not MTB front ders...not road STI compatible. Very confusing yes. shimano->

Road 9/10s STI ARE compatible with MTB 9s rear ders.

Road 9/10s STI are NOT compatible with MTB 10s rear ders

Road 11s STI not compatible with anything but road 11s ders

MTB 10s STI NOT compatible with road 10s ders.

MTB 11s stuff only compatible with other MTB 11s stuff, not road.

spam-road/MTB cross compatible, 10s/11s but not 1by11s stuff. scam 9s stuff(MTB) not compatible with 10s road or MTB stuff.

[Lovetoclimb]

So i would be looking at a 7900 or 6700 series front derailleur working with a 40/28 MTB crankset and chain, all 10s. The road triple FDs most closely match the shape of the MTB FDs, though they are apparently optimized for smaller chainring gaps such as 10 teeth. 53/39 being a 14 teeth gap for a regular road double FD, and my 40/28 setup being 12 it would seem I am right in the middle ....

[palincss]

Does this also apply to 9s MTB front derailleurs being activated by 10s road shifters? (In my case the 7900 DT shifter). Or would I want to stick with the 7900/6700 front der? Or use a XT 10s front der since it will be a primarily XT drivetrain at this point....

Well, we were talking about rear derailleurs. Shimano MTB front derailleurs have a different cable pull from road. However, with downtube shifters it doesn't matter, because friction conquers all indexing fiddliness. Basically, your concern is to match the front derailleur to the size of the chain rings you're planning to use.

Or, since you are using friction, you could just say the Campagnolo Racing T is the best front derailleur ever, and go with that.

[Lovetoclimb]

Well, we were talking about rear derailleurs. Shimano MTB front derailleurs have a different cable pull from road. However, with downtube shifters it doesn't matter, because friction conquers all indexing fiddliness. Basically, your concern is to match the front derailleur to the size of the chain rings you're planning to use.

Or, since you are using friction, you could just say the Campagnolo Racing T is the best front derailleur ever, and go with that.

The 7900 DT shifters are SIS indexing only AFAIK. Not sure if I can source another set of a different generation.

[lovebird]

The 7900 DT shifters are SIS indexing only AFAIK. Not sure if I can source another set of a different generation.

I'm about 99% sure that the left hand DT shifter (the one that controls the front derailleur) is friction - no indexing - even on the 7900. So you should be ok mixing it with any from derailleur. You might have some issues with cable pull. The only problem you might encounter is the length of teh cable pull. IIRC from when I used a 7900 DT set, it seemed that I had to move the FD lever a long waym but that was with a triple setup.

[Gummee]

I'm about 99% sure that the left hand DT shifter (the one that controls the front derailleur) is friction - no indexing - even on the 7900. So you should be ok mixing it with any from derailleur. You might have some issues with cable pull. The only problem you might encounter is the length of teh cable pull. IIRC from when I used a 7900 DT set, it seemed that I had to move the FD lever a long waym but that was with a triple setup.
When you're shifting the front derailleur down using a road or thumb shifter that's friction make sure you're snappy with the downshifts. The derailleur needs the speed to move the chain down.

Up's a little easier, but ya gotta shift with a purpose there too

AMHIK

M

[oldpotatoe]

The 7900 DT shifters are SIS indexing only AFAIK. Not sure if I can source another set of a different generation.

10s-starting with 7900, were index only on RH side(rear der). 7800 you could select friction on RH lever.

Left has always been friction for front der.

AS right above, since STI just releases front der to smack chain down to small ring..ya kinda got to shift front der with 'gusto' with DT shifter, along with easing up a bit on pedal pressure..'cycling finesse' that all 'should' employ.