Channeling Sean Kelly

[oldpotatoe]

Good for him, shame he's not on a Campagnolo equipped team.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/cancellara-chooses-not-to-use-disc-brakes-in-2016

[CunegoFan]

What will he do if on the eve of Flanders or P-R it is obvious there will be rain?

[Lewis Moon]

Just wait five or so years; someone will come out with innovative brakes that use the rim as the braking rotor instead of the heavy disk.

[flydhest]

Cunegofan, I assume he will do the Same thing as last year.

[oldpotatoe]

What will he do if on the eve of Flanders or P-R it is obvious there will be rain?

Ride his bike. :eek:

[oldpotatoe]

Just wait five or so years; someone will come out with innovative brakes that use the rim as the braking rotor instead of the heavy disk.

And a smaller, lighter BB shell, about 68 or 70mm in width and threaded..amazing!!

[bicimechanic]

And a smaller, lighter BB shell, about 68 or 70mm in width and threaded..amazing!!

:hello::D:beer:

[ultraman6970]

IMO disc in pro riding wont stick unless they make it mandatory and basically force a new standard in rear end for all the pro tour bicycles like a 135 mm rear.

Good cancellara is taking it like real man do :P

WIth bikes is happenning the same than with computers, there's so much crap in the market and old stuff is still as good as the new stuff for the performance many people need. So why the change, maybe im getting attach to my old way (getting old) but either way, find disc road bikes just a marketing thing to force the people to buy more, not that im blaming them but a lot of products never give you what they say anyways. Better spend the money in another high end old bike/s :P

ps: long live to 36x24F!!!

[MattTuck]

Are there any videos out there showing how fast a disc brake rear wheel can be changed?

Is it comparable to a rim brake wheel?

That would be my main concern.

The idea that being able to stop faster is going to help you win a race, well, that is backwards.

[benb]

Are there any videos out there showing how fast a disc brake rear wheel can be changed?

Is it comparable to a rim brake wheel?

That would be my main concern.

The idea that being able to stop faster is going to help you win a race, well, that is backwards.

Haven't you done it yourself? You've never rode a bike with discs and had to remove/replace the wheel?

It's faster.

Rim Brake:
1) Release brake to open up pads
2) Open QR
3) Pull out wheel, probably having to force the brake pads past the tire even though you already opened the brake up
4) Put new wheel in, probably having to force the tire through the pads
5) Close QR
6) Close Brake

Disc Brake:
1) Open QR
2) Take wheel out
3) Put Wheel in
4) Close QR

These questions are the worst part of disc brake FUD among roadies.

Now I admit I've never rode a bike with through axles.. maybe that's worse.

[oldpotatoe]

Are there any videos out there showing how fast a disc brake rear wheel can be changed?

Is it comparable to a rim brake wheel?

That would be my main concern.

The idea that being able to stop faster is going to help you win a race, well, that is backwards.

As has been mentioned more than once. There are no standards right now with regards to rear dropout spacing, how the wheel(s) attach(thru-axle or QR plus size of TA), rotor size and disc caliper mount type(direct/post). Mavic Neutral support isn't going to have 'em all. Unless the UCI mandates the above. So, for 2016, a puncture 'may' mean a team wheel ONLY.


Even so, if it IS 142/12 TA rear and 15mm TA front, and a certain size rotor and disc brake type..even swapping those wheels can make for some interesting dragging, noises, squealing. I envision ore than one 'bike toss', because the rotor is dragging or just doesn't work.

Gonna be fun to watch. BUT the marketeers only care about, 'win on sunday, sell on monday'..let the whiner bike racers complain.

[MattTuck]

Haven't you done it yourself? You've never rode a bike with discs and had to remove/replace the wheel?

It's faster.

Rim Brake:
1) Release brake to open up pads
2) Open QR
3) Pull out wheel, probably having to force the brake pads past the tire even though you already opened the brake up
4) Put new wheel in, probably having to force the tire through the pads
5) Close QR
6) Close Brake

Disc Brake:
1) Open QR
2) Take wheel out
3) Put Wheel in
4) Close QR

These questions are the worst part of disc brake FUD among roadies.

Now I admit I've never rode a bike with through axles.. maybe that's worse.

Only ridden a disc brake bike a few times, and never had to change a wheel. Always assumed that the 'gap' that you need to fit the disc into is pretty precise, and would need to be done carefully.

So, your prediction is that wheel changes will, on average, be quicker with discs?

[ltwtsculler91]

Haven't you done it yourself? You've never rode a bike with discs and had to remove/replace the wheel?

It's faster.

Rim Brake:
1) Release brake to open up pads
2) Open QR
3) Pull out wheel, probably having to force the brake pads past the tire even though you already opened the brake up
4) Put new wheel in, probably having to force the tire through the pads
5) Close QR
6) Close Brake

Disc Brake:
1) Open QR
2) Take wheel out
3) Put Wheel in
4) Close QR

These questions are the worst part of disc brake FUD among roadies.

Now I admit I've never rode a bike with through axles.. maybe that's worse.

The issue with disc rub on the brake pads though doesn't go away. Because of how they work, there is less clearance usually between the rotor and break pads within the brake itself, meaning unless you take the time to line it all up, there will probably a bit of rub when you stick in a new wheel.. At least that's what I've found with my fat bike whenever I pull the wheel or change them. One of our mechanics thinks this will be an annoying minor issue when racing on discs

[benb]

If the tolerances on the hubs & rotors are bad and the racer is taking someone else's wheel it's an issue but then again rubbing/noisy rotors don't really slow you down much IME, they're just annoying. No real difference from guys doing things like finishing a stage on a bike off the car that has the wrong saddle height.

I take the front wheel off my MTB all the time for transport, etc.. and it is very rare that replacing it causes any rubbing. I don't touch the brakes for months and then I get rubbing but it's very easy to fix and in a pro environment where the mechanics are checking everything every night it shouldn't be an issue, with good hydraulics it's very easy & quick to re-align everything. (But not a side of road fix in a race really) The other issue is sticky pistons in the calipers, they might cause an issue with a wheel change but again the mechanics should be starting these guys every day with good condition calipers. Pistons get sticky from months of riding in bad conditions and not cleaning things well. The only time I ran into sticky pistons it was a case where I probably would have had to replace the rim calipers completely 2-3x by the time I got a stuck piston.

[oldpotatoe]

[QUOTE=benb;1879386]If the tolerances on the hubs & rotors are bad and the racer is taking someone else's wheel it's an issue but then again rubbing/noisy rotors don't really slow you down much IME, they're just annoying. No real difference from guys doing things like finishing a stage on a bike off the car that has the wrong saddle height.

DOH...lots of racers rode/raced with the their calipers open, so yes, annoying but some thought it really did 'slow them down'.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2015/12/video/video-does-saddle-height-really-matter_391124

[redir]

My wheels come out easily and don't touch the break pads requiring no force to insert past the pads so you can eliminate that problem. I only have disks on my MTB and I seem to always have to fuss with them just a little bit to get the wheel on. Not enough to worry about though.

[benb]

I do actually wonder why they haven't purposely designed the road systems with a design that retracts the pads further than MTBs to avoid rubbing at all costs even if it hurts brake feel since everyone is so paranoid about rubbing and everyone is already used to rim brakes that are likely being run further out from the rim.

[ltwtsculler91]

If the tolerances on the hubs & rotors are bad and the racer is taking someone else's wheel it's an issue but then again rubbing/noisy rotors don't really slow you down much IME, they're just annoying. No real difference from guys doing things like finishing a stage on a bike off the car that has the wrong saddle height.


I think this is where the issue would arise, with neutral support swapping a wheel on, or even a team wheel, it may not be set up perfectly you'll get the annoying rub.

[benb]

This problem could be solved by making them change their own tires again...

[El Chaba]

Of course the problem could also be solved by not going to discs, but I guess that isn't a viable option...

[echappist]

c'mon, nine more posts so i can post the "tortieth" post :)

[benb]

LOL.. I think self supported racing would be more fun to watch, that's all. Discs will make the descents faster and more fun to watch so it's a win-win for me as a fan.

[MattTuck]

I have a hard time seeing how discs are going to make any descent faster. I just don't get the argument.

If we take as a given that riders will have to slow to the same speed in a given corner to navigate it safely, where is the time savings? Let's say, 60 kph down to 40 kph, as an example. The only savings could be if the rider will be able to delay braking until later in a corner, and thus covering distance for a few more seconds at 60kph. This assumes 1) that the brakes (and not tires, or rider safety concerns) are the actual limiting factor to not doing this already and 2) that the riders will actually push those limits of coming into a corner very fast.

[Macadamia]

I have a hard time seeing how discs are going to make any descent faster. I just don't get the argument.


Heavier bike= faster downhill :p

[David Kirk]

I have a hard time seeing how discs are going to make any descent faster. I just don't get the argument.

If we take as a given that riders will have to slow to the same speed in a given corner to navigate it safely, where is the time savings? Let's say, 60 kph down to 40 kph, as an example. The only savings could be if the rider will be able to delay braking until later in a corner, and thus covering distance for a few more seconds at 60kph. This assumes 1) that the brakes (and not tires, or rider safety concerns) are the actual limiting factor to not doing this already and 2) that the riders will actually push those limits of coming into a corner very fast.

In the wet, with carbon rims, you will be much faster with disc brakes. In fact it's not even close.

If you are using carbon rims and rim brakes and in the wet you will need to get on the brakes much sooner than you would with disc brakes and you will be much less inclined to let it really run between braking zones so that your speeds don't climb too high.

So at a minimum the disc bike can brake much later and, for most folks that like staying upright, you can also attain higher speeds between braking zones. The two of these things combine to make a disc bike faster in the wet - hands down.

I spent a lot of time testing and experimenting with road disc bikes and there are more than a few hills here to play on. I had two bikes and one set of wheels. The wheels were ENVE carbon rims (with standard brake tracks) and they had disc hubs. I could use them in one bike that had Shimano DA rim brakes and the other bike with cable pulled discs. I would take each bike out into the hills in the cold rain (FUN!) and go as fast as I dared down the same twisty descent. The difference was huge and obvious. I hit higher peak speeds (without needing to worry about having to rein it in later) and I was able to brake much later with the discs. My apex speeds were more or less the same between the two (meaning the lowest speed in the turn). So I wasn't challenging the grip of the tire on the wet surface any more with one brake over the other in the turn but I was able to use more brake entering the turn with the discs.......and that means I spent more time going faster, and less time going slower, so I was overall faster from top to bottom of the hill.

This doesn't at all factor in the ease and added fun of descending in the rain with disc brakes. At the risk of tooting my own horn too loudly I can do downhill pretty darn well and I have to say the ease of going fast with discs is much greater. If you are using rim brakes and carbon rims in the wet you need to always give yourself enough time/distance to slow down should you need to and this can mean riding the brake to try to keep speed in check should someone pull out from a side street The friction of the pads on the rim are the limiting factor (as opposed to the tire to the wet pavement). So....you go slow just in case. With discs this isn't the case - the grip of the tire to the wet pavement is the limiting factor and with discs you can use all of this grip and the vastly superior modulation (not power but feel of what the brake and tire are doing) makes this possible.

In my view discs are so superior in the rain with carbon rims it's not even close. Note I'm talking about one specific situation - carbon rims and rain. There are still benefits to the disc when using aluminum rims in the dry but they are much smaller and I would argue that the downsides of the discs are generally not worth it.....but in the wet, with carbon rims, there is no contest.

FWIW my everyday bike has aluminum rims and rim brakes. I never set out into the rain and almost never get caught in it. I don't think I got wet once last summer. I ride in the high mountains and often see 50+ mph on the descents and I use rim brakes. If I were racing for a living and had to ride in the high alps in the rain you can bet your life I would have a rain bike with discs.....they are better and I would be safer and faster at the same time. A win-win if ever there was one.

dave

[Louis]

Some more thread drift:

I wonder if anyone is trying to put ABS on bicycles? Too much of a technical challenge?

These days they're very common motorcycles and other than the curmudgeons who think that learning to ride without ABS makes you a better rider, most folks think they're a big and worthwhile safety improvement.

[bobswire]

In the wet, with carbon rims, you will be much faster with disc brakes. In fact it's not even close.

If you are using carbon rims and rim brakes and in the wet you will need to get on the brakes much sooner than you would with disc brakes and you will be much less inclined to let it really run between braking zones so that your speeds don't climb too high.

So at a minimum the disc bike can brake much later and, for most folks that like staying upright, you can also attain higher speeds between braking zones. The two of these things combine to make a disc bike faster in the wet - hands down.

I spent a lot of time testing and experimenting with road disc bikes and there are more than a few hills here to play on. I had two bikes and one set of wheels. The wheels were ENVE carbon rims (with standard brake tracks) and they had disc hubs. I could use them in one bike that had Shimano DA rim brakes and the other bike with cable pulled discs. I would take each bike out into the hills in the cold rain (FUN!) and go as fast as I dared down the same twisty descent. The difference was huge and obvious. I hit higher peak speeds (without needing to worry about having to rein it in later) and I was able to brake much later with the discs. My apex speeds were more or less the same between the two (meaning the lowest speed in the turn). So I wasn't challenging the grip of the tire on the wet surface any more with one brake over the other in the turn but I was able to use more brake entering the turn with the discs.......and that means I spent more time going faster, and less time going slower, so I was overall faster from top to bottom of the hill.

This doesn't at all factor in the ease and added fun of descending in the rain with disc brakes. At the risk of tooting my own horn too loudly I can do downhill pretty darn well and I have to say the ease of going fast with discs is much greater. If you are using rim brakes and carbon rims in the wet you need to always give yourself enough time/distance to slow down should you need to and this can mean riding the brake to try to keep speed in check should someone pull out from a side street The friction of the pads on the rim are the limiting factor (as opposed to the tire to the wet pavement). So....you go slow just in case. With discs this isn't the case - the grip of the tire to the wet pavement is the limiting factor and with discs you can use all of this grip and the vastly superior modulation (not power but feel of what the brake and tire are doing) makes this possible.

In my view discs are so superior in the rain with carbon rims it's not even close. Note I'm talking about one specific situation - carbon rims and rain. There are still benefits to the disc when using aluminum rims in the dry but they are much smaller and I would argue that the downsides of the discs are generally not worth it.....but in the wet, with carbon rims, there is no contest.

FWIW my everyday bike has aluminum rims and rim brakes. I never set out into the rain and almost never get caught in it. I don't think I got wet once last summer. I ride in the high mountains and often see 50+ mph on the descents and I use rim brakes. If I were racing for a living and had to ride in the high alps in the rain you can bet your life I would have a rain bike with discs.....they are better and I would be safer and faster at the same time. A win-win if ever there was one.

dave

So Dave, you could beat Spartacus on a steep descent, rain or shine with him using rim brakes and you on disc. :rolleyes: :)

[pdmtong]

We can make these threads much more succinct by allowing only those folks with recent hydro disc experience whether road, gravel, CX, XC, AM, enduro, or DH to participate. Time and again, Dave boils down the rationale in a few paragraphs. People, listen up! He's contributred a sane and thoughtful primer over and over.

Anyone who is a dirt enthusiast recalls the biggest problem used to be carrying enough speed to clear the section safely while being able to scrub speed immediately as the line change requires (go slow and you crash, speed is your friend, completely counter-intuitive to the newbie). This common dirt scenario manifests itself on the road with carbon rims in the wet with discs.

Assuming Dave had equal skills to FC, yes, he would be faster with disc than rim. Don't think it matters? try racing cross where gaining 1/4 second over 60 out of the corner accelerations turns into a 15 second gap...

[bobswire]

We can make these threads much more succinct by allowing only those folks with recent hydro disc experience whether road, gravel, CX, XC, AM, enduro, or DH to participate. Time and again, Dave boils down the rationale in a few paragraphs. People, listen up! He's contributred a sane and thoughtful primer over and over.

Anyone who is a dirt enthusiast recalls the biggest problem used to be carrying enough speed to clear the section safely while being able to scrub speed immediately as the line change requires (go slow and you crash, speed is your friends, completely counter-intuitive). This is the dirt equivalent to carbon rims in the wet with discs.

Assuming Dave had equal skills to FC, yes, he would be faster with disc than rim.

Yeah but there's the rub. Though I was just poking fun at Dave, I should have known someone would pontificate.

[MattTuck]

I hope we can see a graph like this one in a few years showing descent times down key climbs. I'm open to the possibility that increased brake modulation will improve descent times. I'm also open to Dave's argument that they could be game changers on wet descents.

So, will they ride them all the time? or just in the rain? I may start collecting times down the Poggio so we can compare the 2016 results ;)

http://www.int.washington.edu/users/mjs5/Cycling/LookingAtTheData/figures/AlpeDHuezspeedplot1970to2012.jpg

[54ny77]

Rode a bike with carbon rims a couple of months ago and got caught in rain. First time in that situation. Was going rather quickly on a descent (40-45ish) and feathered the brakes as I was approaching an intersection. Hellooooooooo brakes? Where are ya? Yeah that was a pucker moment. Lesson learned: have carbon, brake sooner. :bike:


If you are using carbon rims and rim brakes and in the wet you will need to get on the brakes much sooner than you would with disc brakes and you will be much less inclined to let it really run between braking zones so that your speeds don't climb too high.

[pdmtong]

Yeah but there's the rub. Though I was just poking fun at Dave, I should have known someone would pontificate.

pontificate? nope, just sharing some reality. hard to know who is making fun and who is serious. after all, this is a place where people still have not tried carbon frames, are running 8 speed, and only ride on road. there are even some mtb folks who claim they don't need anything more than their 80s canti's. I'm the last person to spend money on the fad of the year but disc for road/gravel/cx...I can see myself with one for sure.

[MattTuck]

pontificate? nope, just sharing some reality. hard to know who is making fun and who is serious. after all, this is a place where people still have not tried carbon frames, are running 8 speed, and only ride on road. there are even some mtb folks who claim they don't need anything more than their 80s canti's. I'm the last person to spend money on the fad of the year but disc for road/gravel/cx...I can see myself with one for sure.

Yes, I think there is a difference between opposition to "progress" out of principle and a healthy amount of skepticism. Let's keep in mind that all these teams and riders are paid spokesmen for their equipment sponsors. It is their job, and part of their contract.

You cannot be around the cycling industry for long before you realize that manufacturers will try almost anything to sell more of whatever they're currently producing.

Rock Shox at Paris-Roubaix... GH's commuter steerer at PR. I'm sure there are many more examples, but I'm tired and can't think of any right now.

Bottom line is that disc brakes may be better in very specific conditions, or they may truly be better for racing in any conditions. We're going to find out going forward. But don't just assume because they're now being used, that they've been anointed by teams and riders as being better.

[pdmtong]

Yes, I think there is a difference between opposition to "progress" out of principle and a healthy amount of skepticism. Let's keep in mind that all these teams and riders are paid spokesmen for their equipment sponsors. It is their job, and part of their contract.

You cannot be around the cycling industry for long before you realize that manufacturers will try almost anything to sell more of whatever they're currently producing.

Rock Shox at Paris-Roubaix... GH's commuter steerer at PR. I'm sure there are many more examples, but I'm tired and can't think of any right now.

Bottom line is that disc brakes may be better in very specific conditions, or they may truly be better for racing in any conditions. We're going to find out going forward. But don't just assume because they're now being used, that they've been anointed by teams and riders as being better.

I used to have a KGSN ottrott. Full gas race geo. I asked both Jackson Stewart (who later raced on Team BMC) and Ben Jacques-Mayne (top domestic pro, now retired) who were both on the team the year of my bike what they thought of the ride. Neither were blown away in the way forumites wax on effusively about best bike ever owned. In fact they said it was kind of vague and not responsive enough

That burst my bubble.

Point is, pros can ride a crappy bike and make it work. So, make no mistake that just because a pro rides it does not automatically make ME assign a higher cache or want. On the contrary, pros will stress parts in half a season far more than what I will do in a lifetime. so I welcome their durability feedback.

Braking power aside, hydro disc will allow for less fatigued modulation. That alone would be worth it for folks going downhill for a long time, and folks with less hand strength such as women and young riders.

The elephant is the weight gain. I'm in the camp that a lighter bike is in fact more fun to ride. 16-18#'s isnt that big a deal. sub-16 woo-hoo. 18+ ... not the ride I chose for a big/long day in the saddle.

This discussion also reminds me of the Di2 naysayers. Try it before commenting.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=1697882533&stc=1&d=1402803469

[ofcounsel]

This discussion also reminds me of the Di2 naysayers. Try it before commenting.


I'm totally out of synch with many guys on the forum. I'm loving my new Di2/hydraulic disc equipped bike! I'm also running road tubeless. Then again, I'm an mtb primary guy and I run mtbs with 1x11 gearing, short stems, wide wheels and a dropper post. No fear of technology or trends that just plain work better.

[pdmtong]

I'm totally out of synch with many guys on the forum. .... No fear of technology or trends that just plain work better.^ truth!

Know what's sad (to me)? the folks who say I just love riding my 198x or 199x blah blah blah. Look at the calendar. The -7 wave brought some significant and beneficial advancements. A lot has happened in the past 15 years certainly for dirt but even for road.

No matter your net worth, the one thing that both the "have" and the "have nots" do not possess is enough time.

Once you upgrade to some things that really do work better, you will be kicking yourself you wasted all that time when the experience could have been so much better.

I am NOT saying be an early adopter. What I am saying is that when we are clearly past early adoption and about to hit mass market get a clue and give it a try before pooh-poohing

[Jim9112]

I agree I happen to enjoy my disc brakes. I remember the same arguments going on when they came out for MTB. I'm not saying that all "advancements" are actually solving any issues. I'm just saying there plenty of room in this world for early adopters retro grouches and everyone in between. I will also say I don't base my decisions on what the pros say as my needs are very different


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[rain dogs]

Haven't you done it yourself? You've never rode a bike with discs and had to remove/replace the wheel?

It's faster.

Rim Brake:
1) Release brake to open up pads
2) Open QR
3) Pull out wheel, probably having to force the brake pads past the tire even though you already opened the brake up
4) Put new wheel in, probably having to force the tire through the pads
5) Close QR
6) Close Brake

Disc Brake:
1) Open QR
2) Take wheel out
3) Put Wheel in
4) Close QR

These questions are the worst part of disc brake FUD among roadies.

Now I admit I've never rode a bike with through axles.. maybe that's worse.

This in my experience just isn't true. I feel that you're being as hyperbolic about changing a rim brake (see 3+4) as many do about changing a disc brake. Also remember, in pro racing the wheel is long out before the new one arrives

Both have quick releases. Both take out and put in a wheel. Both have derailleurs and chains to navigate. The distinction is opening the calipers vs aligning the disc. Neither are particularly difficult, but opening a caliper is abundantly easy - I can have a campy caliper open before my ass is off the saddle.

I've never, nor have I ever seen anyone slam a disc wheel into the dropouts, and without a doubt it takes an extra second to take the care of aligning the disc in the brake slot.

Are either of these subtle differences going to win or lose a race? No. Full stop.

However, if something does delay getting the appropriate wheel to the appropraite bike (compatibility issues/neutral service etc.) that is a different story.

[El Chaba]

Fabulous....discs grab better in the wet...They still have no effect on the traction of the tire on wet pavement. I can envision scenarios where the discs will INCREASE the number of accidents in these situations.

[oldpotatoe]

pontificate? nope, just sharing some reality. hard to know who is making fun and who is serious. after all, this is a place where people still have not tried carbon frames, are running 8 speed, and only ride on road. there are even some mtb folks who claim they don't need anything more than their 80s canti's. I'm the last person to spend money on the fad of the year but disc for road/gravel/cx...I can see myself with one for sure.

Yet..I think the take-away is there are pluses and minuses for disc and no. There are some issues about standardization(not even there on very mature MTB bike design), and it isn't something brought down from the mountain top. Pretty much trust FC to know what works for him and what is a potential problem. He rode them, I can't help but think there was something, somewhere, with somebody that meant he will use mechanical shifting and calipers.

For the riding I do(road, some dirt) I am sure I will not be getting a bike with discs. BUT the marketeers want you to think that you just can't ride without them, period. And carbon rims and cantis-are ya NUTZ!! What if it rains..

So, if ya like 'em on whatever ya ride-groovy. But some who decide they are not worth the expense, weight, complication..they don't need to 'get a clue' or stop 'pooh-poohing' them or any other latest and 'greatest'. Some don't wish to "not tried carbon frames, are running 8 speed, and only ride on road."..so what.

They aren't wrong and you aren't right..and vice versa.

[David Kirk]

Fabulous....discs grab better in the wet...They still have no effect on the traction of the tire on wet pavement. I can envision scenarios where the discs will INCREASE the number of accidents in these situations.

I feel pretty strongly that we won't see that happen. The reason is the vastly superior modulation of disc brakes.

With a rim brake, especially a wet rim brake squeezing a carbon rim, it can be very difficult to tell how much brake force you are generating. You pull the lever hard and get nothing when the pads first hit the wet rim, then a little more as it dries, and then a lot more as the surface of the pads warm due to the friction. All of this happens with the same pressure on the brake lever so it's very hard to tell how much braking force you'll get and exactly when you might get it. When the pavement is wet the brake torque can quickly go from far below the grip the tire can make on the wet pavement to far above with little to no warning. This is the main cause for sudden lock-ups we see with rim brakes on wet pavement.

With a disc this isn't a factor. The pressure that the pads make on the rotor is so high that they almost instantly press the water on the rotor aside, or through the cut outs on the rotor, and you get real pad-to-rotor contact. It's very linear and predictable. It also allows the rider to feel how much grip the tire has on the pavement and feed in more or less pressure on the lever to modulate the brake force to match the grip the tire has on the pavement.

It's just like riding a disc brake mountain bike in the mud. Discs don't make it so the wheel just locks and slides......they allow the rider to use the modulation to match the brake force to the tire's grip and to slow as rapidly as the grip will allow by not locking the wheel.

I feel very confident that we will see far fewer lock ups and skids into the guard rail in pro races if disc are used.....and the rider will be faster at the same time.

dave

[redir]

Ok so I'm getting a new Synapse this year and was all set to go with rim brakes since all my wheels are rim brakes... Now what should I do?

:(((

[ltwtsculler91]

Ok so I'm getting a new Synapse this year and was all set to go with rim brakes since all my wheels are rim brakes... Now what should I do?

:(((

If you're comfortable with rim brakes, have the equipment for them, and are used to them and their potential downsides in the wet, stick with them!

[David Kirk]

If you're comfortable with rim brakes, have the equipment for them, and are used to them and their potential downsides in the wet, stick with them!

Yep.

dave

[ofcounsel]

Ok so I'm getting a new Synapse this year and was all set to go with rim brakes since all my wheels are rim brakes... Now what should I do?

:(((

Get the disc brake-equppied Synapse. Keep the disc wheels with the Synapse and keep the rim brake wheels on the rim brake bikes.

[benb]

Fabulous....discs grab better in the wet...They still have no effect on the traction of the tire on wet pavement. I can envision scenarios where the discs will INCREASE the number of accidents in these situations.

I feel like statements like this reveal this discussion just continues to be pointless... have you ever rode hydraulic discs or do you just live somewhere with 0.01" of precipitation a year? Even then my experience is the discs are still head and shoulders better in the dry when you get into the mountains. I have plenty of experience of 12% average grade descents several miles long with sections going to 20% and plenty of tight turns. Those descents have always been nerve racking for me on all rim brakes. Maybe not 100% relevant to racing cause part of my stress is what is coming up the road as I descend, but still very meaningful.

Couple of great posts here by Dave Kirk and Pdmtong.. this is such a great summary of the advantages and half the challenge of technical MTB riding:

Anyone who is a dirt enthusiast recalls the biggest problem used to be carrying enough speed to clear the section safely while being able to scrub speed immediately as the line change requires (go slow and you crash, speed is your friend, completely counter-intuitive to the newbie). This common dirt scenario manifests itself on the road with carbon rims in the wet with discs.


As for FC... the way he rides and the way he wins I don't think a lot of this matters to him.. he's a freight train who rides away from everyone when he's having a good day, often on flat non-technical terrain. When he's on it probably doesn't matter at all what brakes or even what bike he's on as long as it fits. All of our talk about brakes means little when he's just churning out 400w forever on relatively flat straight roads and not touching the brakes at all.

I made my decision, I'm building up a new road bike for next season, spending relatively big $$$$ and I decided not to get disc brakes cause I think the road setups need a few more revisions to improve.

I have a killer set of hydraulic discs on my MTB.. I just don't think any of the road setups I've tried are that good. I've tried 2 sets of HyRDs, one broken in one brand new, and 2 sets of the Shimano full hydro setup. So for me, I know I really want a good road hydro disc setup next time I end up buying a "gravel/cross/whatever" bike but for now I have a serviceable bike for that purpose right now with rim brakes. For my main "go fast" road bike which will be my sunny day ride I don't think the benefit is there yet for the discs, but only because I think road discs are still going to improve a ton in the next 5 years.

Not sure what's going on if I do the analysis.. my MTB setup breaks down like this...

460g per wheel for 160mm rotor, caliper, hose, fluid, lever/master cylinder
225g per side for shifters (Sram X.0)

Shimanos current hydro setup is listed as:

528g per wheel, not sure what that includes.

So we're talking a couple hundred gram difference here all up, and on top of that the MTB setup was a lot cheaper IIRC.

But there is literally no comparison.. my MTB setup will completely laugh at any mountainous road I've ever been on. One finger on the rear brake alone on a 20% grade no problem, no stress. Want to go 1mph down a 35% grade off road? Rider in front of you crashes going 25mph and you need to stop instantly? Done. Again, one finger on each side, no issues at all. I have absolutely not experienced this in any of my test rides with road disc.

Not sure what the issue is, maybe it has to do with pad compounds? Maybe it is because brifters still brake a lot better in the drops than on the hoods and I want fantastic braking in both places?

So I certainly get the skeptics.. but I'm coming at it from many years of experience with discs and feeling like something is still not right with road disc, not the idea that discs are not better.

[choke]

So, if ya like 'em on whatever ya ride-groovy. But some who decide they are not worth the expense, weight, complication..they don't need to 'get a clue' or stop 'pooh-poohing' them or any other latest and 'greatest'. Some don't wish to "not tried carbon frames, are running 8 speed, and only ride on road."..so what.

They aren't wrong and you aren't right..and vice versa.Bingo. At one time I was big on 'upgrading' to the latest and greatest....no longer. In fact, I'm seriously considering replacing Ergo levers on 2-3 bikes with DT shifters - after spending more time on the vintage bikes, I find that they don't detract in the least from the pleasure of riding the bike.

[pdmtong]

my MTB setup will completely laugh at any mountainous road I've ever been on. One finger on the rear brake alone on a 20% grade no problem, no stress. Want to go 1mph down a 35% grade off road? Rider in front of you crashes going 25mph and you need to stop instantly? Done. Again, one finger on each side, no issues at all. I have absolutely not experienced this in any of my test rides with road disc.

Not sure what the issue is, maybe it has to do with pad compounds? Maybe it is because brifters still brake a lot better in the drops than on the hoods and I want fantastic braking in both places?

So I certainly get the skeptics.. but I'm coming at it from many years of experience with discs and feeling like something is still not right with road disc, not the idea that discs are not better.

well said. I'm running six piston Hope mono ti 203/185 rotor with a 24mm thru-axle (maverick DUC 32) on my ventana full-suspension tandem. completely confidence inspiring. I would go faster but 1) don't want to crash, especially with wife on the back and 2) don't want to go off a ledge or hit a redwood tree. one finger 20-35% grade 290#team...yeah!

for me, you nailed it. I'm also not over the bridge yet with the current state of road/pavement disc. I dont have enough money to take a flyer now. the rough spots will get figured out in a bit and then I am a buyer. once the weight comes down and we see 15-16# disc builds for pure road why would you not? If I rode more in the wet today I would jump in now since Shimano hydro is here. The cable or half cable half hydro approaches leave me disappointed given my needs.

[Tony]

Couple of great posts here by Dave Kirk and Pdmtong..

And yourself.

[MattTuck]

Saw this article at bikeradar about 5 reasons roadies should embrace disc brakes (http://www.bikeradar.com/us/gear/article/five-reasons-why-roadies-should-embrace-disc-brakes-45840/)

1. They probably won't kill you in a crash
2. You can still change a wheel, and fast
3. This technology isn't really new
4. They work better when the weather gets foul
5. They'll only get better!

I appreciate him being the voice of progress. But, don't 3 and 5 seem to contradict each other? If there's so much improvement that is going to be coming down the road, perhaps the prudent thing is to wait for said improvement. And, in marketing terms, 1 and 2 are referred to as "Points of Parity".

The only real point of difference is stopping power in the wet. Groovy.

Also, wouldn't companies love to sell you a first generation set up, and then, after they've decided on a new standard (that is incompatible with the previous standards), sell you another whole new set up? Buyer beware.

[ofcounsel]

The only real point of difference is stopping power in the wet. Groovy.



Having a set of discs myself, in my experience, it's more than a difference in stopping power in the wet. It's less force on your hands to get to maximum stopping power, so less fatigue as the length of ride progresses. Also, better modulation/feel of the brakes. Having used them, I much prefer road discs over rim brakes. But they're not necessary, obviously. Much in the same way one can make due in a car with no power steering, no power brakes and an a manual transmission if one really wanted to (and could find one on the market).

[redir]

Saw this article at bikeradar about 5 reasons roadies should embrace disc brakes (http://www.bikeradar.com/us/gear/article/five-reasons-why-roadies-should-embrace-disc-brakes-45840/)

1. They probably won't kill you in a crash
2. You can still change a wheel, and fast
3. This technology isn't really new
4. They work better when the weather gets foul
5. They'll only get better!

I appreciate him being the voice of progress. But, don't 3 and 5 seem to contradict each other? If there's so much improvement that is going to be coming down the road, perhaps the prudent thing is to wait for said improvement. And, in marketing terms, 1 and 2 are referred to as "Points of Parity".

The only real point of difference is stopping power in the wet. Groovy.

Also, wouldn't companies love to sell you a first generation set up, and then, after they've decided on a new standard (that is incompatible with the previous standards), sell you another whole new set up? Buyer beware.

Yeah and in regards to #5 it's always better to let others work out the bugs to improve the product.

[MattTuck]

Having a set of discs myself, in my experience, it's more than a difference in stopping power in the wet. It's less force on your hands to get to maximum stopping power, so less fatigue as the length of ride progresses. Also, better modulation/feel of the brakes. Having used them, I much prefer road discs over rim brakes. But they're not necessary, obviously. Much in the same way one can make due in a car with no power steering, no power brakes and an a manual transmission if one really wanted to (and could find one on the market).

I hear that. There are definitely a few times a month that my hands are sore from a long descent that requires a lot of braking. Most of my local hills don't require a ton of braking, but there are a few. And there are a few not so local hills that I can think of, that REALLY require a lot of braking. (Hurricane Mountain Road in North Conway, NH is one that springs to mind)

If I were doing more longer climbs of that variety (steep twisty descents), then I might be more inclined to toward disc for the hand fatigue angle. Of course, there is another option too.

http://www.prohands.net/exercise/images/HookGrasp.jpg

[ofcounsel]

http://www.prohands.net/exercise/images/HookGrasp.jpg

Oh man.... I've had to use those darned things on my wrist so many times due to broken wrist bones.... motorcycle racing will do that to you. I hate those things!! Here's the worst break, from 2008...;)

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s81/ofcounsel/WillowSpringsTurn5.jpg

My weak wrists love me some hydro disc road bikes :)

[benb]

I'm not sure that's realistic for lots of us.. it's not that easy to train hand strength anyway.

I injured my hands last year.. riding my then canti-equipped bike that had poor braking power was some level of factor in it. Even then later in rehab (and I wasn't completely better) I was still putting out > 100lb of force in my grip.

It doesn't really matter though. It's not good to do that all day long, and IMO one of the big problems is brifters don't really have good ergonomics for braking from the hoods anyway. They've made improvements in the latest brifters but it's still not ideal if something doesn't work out quite right with mechanical advantage. Squeezing brifters really hard from the hoods is a lot like using that grip tool but having the tool in some odd orientation that hurts your hands, and the brifter gives you the most leverage in the weakest fingers. AFAICT there is no free lunch with a drop bar bike offroad too, if you get down in the hoods on a steep descent you get better braking but you shift your weight further forward making it harder to go down steep stuff without the rear wheel coming off the ground, it's the complete opposite of the weight shift you would do on a MTB.

I actually have that same exact grip tool and I can completely murder it (it only takes 20lbs), I keep it in my office as something to play with. It takes vastly more force to brake hard on my bike from the hoods than it does to squeeze that thing under some circumstances. Part of the issue is when you're not getting enough braking power you'll just keep squeezing and squeeze as hard as your physically capable. If that's not good enough and you keep having to do it you'll tire your hands out no matter how strong you are and eventually injure yourself. If you're not getting good force the only limit to how hard you can squeeze the brakes is how flexible the pads are or eventually if you snapped the cable or caved the rim in (assuming you were the hulk).

[ofcounsel]

It doesn't really matter though. It's not good to do that all day long, and IMO one of the big problems is brifters don't really have good ergonomics for braking from the hoods anyway.

This is what's nice about hydros... Easy to brake from the hoods. The limited amount of force required to get you stopping makes it a non issue, as opposed to rim brakes. Given that I spend most of my time on the hoods, I love this aspect of hydros.

[benb]

Yah I know the hydro brifters have the potential to do that. My test rides didn't seem to indicate they are there or there is some kind of problem with all the bikes I rode.

The bikes I've test rode with the TRP HyRds actually had better braking power than the ones I rode with the Shimano full Hydro setup, which didn't make a lot of sense.

I actually had the experience of coming into a flat intersection at ~25mph and expecting to brake really easily with one finger from the hoods and was surprised I had to crank down on the lever just like with rim brakes. (That was with Shimano) Nothing like my mountain bike.

That was one of the reasons I mentioned maybe it's pad material? I still haven't seen an explanation of what pads Shimano is using in the current setup.. I've used both sintered and semi-metallic in my MTB brakes. Both types stop better on the first stop before any bedding in than any of the road disc bikes I tried, the only other potential thing is that the Shimano equipped bikes I got to try needed bleeding, but the levers didn't feel like their was air in the system, they just felt like there wasn't much friction between the pad & rotor.

I want to see how the bleed setups evolve on road too.. the Shimano bleed procedure looks like a major PITA compared to my MTB setup (Hayes).

My MTB really has "holy sh*t" levels of brake power compared to any of the road disc bikes I've tried, even though the MTB tires don't have anywhere near as much grip on pavement. The shimano road setups I've tried didn't even seem to stop as hard as the Shimano rim brakes do under perfect circumstances. (Maybe they're more consistent in bad situations but that's not really enough for me)

[benb]

BTW this is the manly man's grip trainer. I've got one of these it must take 500lbs of grip strength to close it on the hardest setting. Even on moderate settings it feels like you're going to damage tissues in your hand it's so hard:

http://www.ivankobarbell.com/products/sg/

http://www.ivankobarbell.com/content/bxrvcd7pra_600.jpg

edit: 345lbs according to it's documentation.

[livingminimal]

I just spent 18 months on a road bike with 785 Di2 Hydro Disc.

The Di2 and Hydro combo was truly amazing in every sense of the word. it just felt incredible in every respect.

Di2 is what it is. The simplicity, the guarantee, the perfection in shifting management. No trimming. No thinking. No noise. Just push a button and ride.
Hydro Disc - perfect modulation, better (yes, better power) as a result of modulation. more confidence. fearless descending (you could argue this is good and/or bad - it might have kept me from getting hit by a car once, but it also gave me the confidence to go a little too hard and put me in that situation)

All this was on a custom steel frame.

Then I got my pegoretti, with its mechanical shifting (whoever won anything with cables? some eddy guy?) and its rim brakes (in my Southern California drought-like conditions) and I realized...

Yeah, the Di2 and Hydro disc are AMAZING, but there is a difference between something being AMAZING and it being something I NEED to ride my bike and the difference in the experience of the two has been absolutely negligible, at best.

Now all of that said, I will be putting 785 on my Moth Attack CX bike, I have multiple sets of 142 TA wheels ready to go for cross, and that bike will probably serve as my all condition/all traveling bike to be whatever I need it to be.

There's no NEW technology that is so integral to the bike riding experience that it should shape whether or not you A) ride and B) enjoy riding. If you're not doing those two things, well, that's a problem that SRAM eTapp and Hydro disc Thru Axle will never be able to fix. Your hunger for shiny and new might be outweighing your desire to ride, to train, to race, whathaveyou...I can do with or without technology that is elevated beyond the "cranks to chain to cog to wheel" and still enjoy...

...except my Power Meter. I cant ····ing ride without my power meter.

[etu]

Another factor in deciding on discs vs rim brakes is how you ride and descend. I had a mechanical then hydro disc all-arounder for a few years and rode it in wet and dry conditions and on and off road. Not sure how much difference it will make for the average or cautious descender since we don't push our bikes and tires anywhere near their limits. Also on rainy days, I would guess most of us try to avoid major climbs not only for safety reasons, but because of how cold it gets coming down. So on wet rides my mindset is to enjoy the flats, love the minor climbs, and just get through the descents safely. Of course YMMV.

Got caught in the rain this weekend on carbon rims on a course with a few minor hills, and wow, the bike wouldn't stop braking from the hoods!:eek: