Sunday NY times article

[Grant McLean]

Opening That Wallet for a Bicycle Built for You

http://www.nytimes.com/glogin?URI=http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/28/business/yourmoney/28bike.html&OQ=_rQ3D1&OP=34942ca2Q2F!jQ20V!Q5D2Q7CPD22iQ25!Q25vv@!vq!Q25 8!VsPFGQ20PP!y2sDQ5B2GQ20y!Q258VFlQ20Q3FQ3BiQ5B_

By CATHERINE M. ALLCHIN
Published: May 28, 2006
FOR her 40th birthday, Daniele Imperiale-Warner of Brooklyn bought herself a bike. An $8,000 bike.
Chester Higgins Jr./The New York Times
Daniele Imperiale-Warner of Brooklyn says her customized bicycle, made by Seven Cycles, was worth every penny of its $8,000 price, and helps ease her back pain.
"Some people spend money on watches or cars; this is my big passion," she said, explaining that she rides up to 20 hours a week and occasionally races competitively.

Ms. Imperiale-Warner planned to spend about $3,000 on a ready-made, or stock, bike until a friend recommended that she consider a custom-made model to alleviate the chronic back pain she has from riding. Now, with her specially made bike from Seven Cycles of Watertown, Mass., she says she can "log 75 miles without any pain."

When ordering her new road bike, she chose the frame and parts she wanted. Then the sales technician totaled the price. "I had a heart attack," said Ms. Imperiale-Warner, a college professor. "But I figured, I'm 40, let's go for broke."

Over all, bicycle sales are taking off. Last year was the best year since the 1970's, with more than two million road bikes sold in the United States, according to Steve Madden, editor of Bicycling magazine. An aging population is embracing cycling as a forgiving sport, Mr. Madden said, and many people have been inspired by the success of Lance Armstrong, the seven-time winner of the Tour de France.

Zac Daab, founder of Cascade Bicycle Studio in Seattle, says the growing interest in cycling, specifically high-end cycling, allowed him to start his business this year, selling built-to-order premium bicycles. "I couldn't have done it three years ago," said Mr. Daab, who previously helped design customized bikes at Seven Cycles.

An entry-level off-the-shelf road bike from a specialty bike shop may cost $600 to $700. But enthusiasts with ample disposable income seek out the latest technology and highest quality — and are willing to pay 10 times as much to get it. A customized bike is the ne plus ultra of the bicycling world.

To some, "custom" means simply a choice of components or paint color. But to high-end builders and their connoisseur clients, it means a bicycle built from the ground up for a specific person's body, riding style and preferences.

A customized bike was once a last resort for people who were too tall or too short for ready-made bikes. Today, small independent bike builders are "popping up on every street corner," said Don Walker, who founded the North American Handmade Bicycle Show two years ago. Mr. Walker estimates that there are at least 125 professional builders in the United States. And larger companies like Serotta and Seven Cycles are building their businesses around customization.

"A decade ago, a custom bike was something you waited a year or more for from a one-man shop," said Jennifer Miller, one of the founding employees of Seven Cycles, which opened in 1997 and can generally produce a customized bike in six weeks.

"People were paying $5,000 or $6,000 for stock bikes," Ms. Miller explained. "The opportunity to provide increased customer value by offering fully customized bikes at essentially the same price was a no-brainer." Today, she said, the average price for a customized model is about $8,000.

"It's the Starbucks phenomenon," she said. "People will pay $3 or $4 for a cup of coffee if they can get it just the way they want it." Seven Cycles' sales have increased 50 percent in the last five years, she said, though she would not give specific sales numbers.

Ben Serotta, founder and chief executive of Serotta, based in Saratoga Springs, N.Y., also sees persistent growth at the upper end of the market. The company says it delivers about 3,000 made-to-order road and mountain bikes a year, with annual revenue growth of 15 to 20 percent in recent years. The company offers an entry-level customized model for about $3,500; its highest-end bike goes for $20,000.

Most buyers of high-tech, high-priced bikes are amateur cyclists, not racers. Mr. Serotta sees an increased interest among the "Type A power set who work hard and play hard."

Mr. Daab described the typical customer at his Seattle shop this way: "She's 40, well-educated, professional and knows exactly what she wants."

Others in the business say that while sales to women are increasing, their clientele is still predominantly men. For some, a tailor-made bike is a status symbol, like a luxury car or a fine watch. "It's the best-in-class concept," Mr. Daab added. One thing is certain: they all have enough money to foot the bill.

In buying a made-to-order bike, a customer first chooses a style based on how and where it will be ridden.

Superstrong, ultralight materials like carbon fiber and titanium are used to make frames that might weigh just over two pounds. The frame tubing is selected for the rider's weight and riding style — for example, if the rider climbs hills standing or seated, or pushes on the pedals in a hard gear or spins the pedals in an easier one.

The frame is designed to be compatible with the components the customer selects, like aerodynamic handle bars, disk brakes and lightweight wheels. Features like fender mounts or extra water bottle cages can be added, and corporate graphics or personal initials can be applied to the frame.

Most of the biggest builders of customized bikes work with retail stores, which fit customers for the right bike. Such builders do not sell directly, online or in catalogs. The philosophy, they say, demands skilled personal attention and a lengthy fitting process. At the initial interview, the sales worker takes measurements — not only for things like shoe size and shoulder width but also for hamstring and hip flexibility — and asks questions about the client's occupation, past injuries, riding style and cycling goals.

In 1998, Serotta opened its School of Cycling Ergonomics in Saratoga Springs, attracting bike retailers from all corners of the country and as far away as Australia and South Korea. A three-day training program is required before a shop can become a certified Serotta dealer.

"The school is not a profit center," Mr. Serotta said. "We are advancing the science of bike fit. What makes the best bike is what makes it perfect for you. How do we get that information?" Ms. Imperiale-Warner bought her 40th birthday present from Conrad's, a high-end shop in Manhattan. It required an initial fitting, a phone interview, then two more hourlong fittings. "It was like getting a wedding dress," she said. It took six weeks before she picked up her titanium and carbon fiber bike.

"I instantaneously fell in love with it," she said. "It's worth every penny."

[imho]

percosets help ease back pain. $8,000 bikes should make you fast.

imho

[fiamme red]

A Meivici can cost $20,000?

[imho]

A Meivici can cost $20,000?


sure. it should cost more.

imho

[catulle]

sure. it should cost more.

imho

I'd rather dream, buba. Consumerism spoils it, iirc.

[atmo]

i knew this article was coming out and i have mixed feelings wrt the
tone. it's more about customized bicycles than it is about framebuilding,
though it never pretends to be otherwise. i get uneasy when the mainstream
press decides to guffaw about bicycles using price as a reader draw. imho,
the articles condescends abit because it turns clients into one effin' demographic.
the use of the term "...starbucks phenomenon" irks me. it confuses the intelligent
reader by noting, "...most buyers <cut> are amateur cyclists, not racers".
i shouldn't ask a question i know the answer to, but what message does
this send? to me, it says, "hey rich white guy: get an expensive bike. it
is now kewl". these might sound like harsh words coming from someone
in the industry, but these are my reactions from reading the clip over breakfast.

any news is good news, some say. but i think this article has less to
do with bicycles and quality and more to do with one's station in life.
however, in all fairness, it was in the business section atmo.

[imho]

I'd rather dream, buba. Consumerism spoils it, iirc.


consumerism is the new oppression. the hitler youth would tell you to jump in a pool; now you're being told to go buy something.

1969 okay?
all across the usa
it's another year for me and you
Another year with nothing to do



imho

[fiamme red]

sure. it should cost more.

imhoSeven bikes, on the other hand, are grossly overpriced, like Starbucks coffee.

[Fixed]

zac daab cool name he must be a bro
cheers

[imho]

i knew this article was coming out and i have mixed feelings wrt the
tone. it's more about customized bicycles than it is about framebuilding,
though it never pretends to be otherwise. i get uneasy when the mainstream
press decides to guffaw about bicycles using price as a reader draw. imho,
the articles condescends abit because it turns clients into one effin' demographic.
the use of the term "...starbucks phenomenon" irks me. it confuses the intelligent
reader by noting, "...most buyers <cut> are amateur cyclists, not racers".
i shouldn't ask a question i know the answer to, but what message does
this send? to me, it says, "hey rich white guy: get an expensive bike. it
is now kewl". these might sound like harsh words coming from someone
in the industry, but these are my reactions from reading the clip over breakfast.

any news is good news, some say. but i think this article has less to
do with bicycles and quality and more to do with one's station in life.
however, in all fairness, it was in the business section atmo.


that article sucks. if custom bicycles are to cure rich white people of back pain; stroke their egos and give them street credibility the boom or the threat of a boom is over.

imho

[Grant McLean]

but i think this article has less to
do with bicycles and quality and more to do with one's station in life.
however, in all fairness, it was in the business section atmo.

Just why was it in the business section, that was my question. The article
is about shopping? Or why not the sports section? How about the Sunday Style
department... Business?

The thing that bugs me about these kind of articles is that they really end up
making a point like, "buy an $8k bike, you'll like it". That kind of newsflash,
shouldn't it be on the front page?

g

[manet]

zac daab cool name he must be a bro
cheers

all apologies, but ***?

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.imba.com/epics/slideshows/images/arkansas005.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.imba.com/epics/slideshows/arkansas_5.html&h=432&w=287&sz=64&hl=en&start=2&tbnid=YUdBDHqKCbNQcM:&tbnh=123&tbnw=81&prev=/images%3Fq%3DZac%2BDaab%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26l r%3D%26sa%3DG

[atmo]

Just why was it in the business section, that was my question. The article
is about shopping? Or why not the sports section? How about the Sunday Style
department... Business?

The thing that bugs me about these kind of articles is that they really end up
making a point like, "buy an $8k bike, you'll like it". That kind of newsflash,
shouldn't it be on the front page?

g


you don't get it - and i don't mean that in condescending terms.
this is not an news article in newspaper parlance. it is
basically a story that was planted (nothing wrong with that) and
is given bylines to that effect. it could've been in the styles section
and it could have been in sports. but it is not a news story. it
is more like an op-ed atmo.

[imho]

Just why was it in the business section, that was my question. The article
is about shopping? Or why not the sports section? How about the Sunday Style
department... Business?

The thing that bugs me about these kind of articles is that they really end up
making a point like, "buy an $8k bike, you'll like it". That kind of newsflash,
shouldn't it be on the front page?

g


no. because its really about schlock....its showing the millions of losers who live on credit-card debt; over-mortgaged over valued homes, leased cars and rug rats getting c grades in over priced private schools how people who are "really" fisically irresponsible and/or wealthy spend their money so they can feel better about their own pathetic existence.

it's like lifestyles of the rich and famous but with walter benjamin directing.

imho

[Grant McLean]

all apologies, but ***?

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.imba.com/epics/slideshows/images/arkansas005.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.imba.com/epics/slideshows/arkansas_5.html&h=432&w=287&sz=64&hl=en&start=2&tbnid=YUdBDHqKCbNQcM:&tbnh=123&tbnw=81&prev=/images%3Fq%3DZac%2BDaab%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26l r%3D%26sa%3DG

chimeric twin?

[atmo]

all apologies, but ***?

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.imba.com/epics/slideshows/images/arkansas005.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.imba.com/epics/slideshows/arkansas_5.html&h=432&w=287&sz=64&hl=en&start=2&tbnid=YUdBDHqKCbNQcM:&tbnh=123&tbnw=81&prev=/images%3Fq%3DZac%2BDaab%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26l r%3D%26sa%3DG



zac's (http://www.cascadebicyclestudio.com/whycbs) a good guy and a former n.e.'cross fixture.
retailers like him will do well with articles such
as these.

[manet]

zac's (http://www.cascadebicyclestudio.com/whycbs) a good guy and a former n.e.'cross fixture.
retailers like him will do well with articles such
as these.

http://www.geocities.com/sbphoto01/photos/nodoubt2_c_sbooth2000.jpg

[Grant McLean]

zac's (http://www.cascadebicyclestudio.com/whycbs) a good guy and a former n.e.'cross fixture.
retailers like him will do well with articles such
as these.

i'm sure he is.

interesting that every client photo has the stem upside down.

http://www.cascadebicyclestudio.com/photos/client#

g

[atmo]

i'm sure he is.

interesting that every client photo has the stem upside down.

http://www.cascadebicyclestudio.com/photos/client#

g


as everyone slowly moves to the other end of the group w bench... (http://www.arlo.net/lyrics/alices.shtml)
fade to black atmo.

[imho]

zac's (http://www.cascadebicyclestudio.com/whycbs) a good guy and a former n.e.'cross fixture.
retailers like him will do well with articles such
as these.

articles like these don't sell bikes. articles like these are solely written to sensationalize a phenomon that is viewed as strange, other or bizare in order to re-affirm "what we all know"; namely that bicycles are toys. "nomal" people don't spend $8,000 on toys; and the irrational spending habits of the rich are oh so different from the rational; non-influenced by fad, culture, advertizing, independent choices "we" normal god fearing americans make when spending our money.

if this article served any other purpose; such as that to educate or entertain or "sell" the products being discussed it would have discussed the technology, hiatory or pedigree of the product in a way that fascinates, painted the customers as people we should aspire to be and/or discuss greater benefits to said customers than solving back pain as the net result of such a purchase.

imho

[Grant McLean]

as everyone slowly moves to the other end of the group w bench... (http://www.arlo.net/lyrics/alices.shtml)
fade to black atmo.

thanks for adding the url...

for a moment there....zoooooooom

g

[atmo]

articles like these don't sell bikes. articles like these are solely written to sensationalize a phenomon that is viewed as strange, other or bizare in order to re-affirm "what we all know"; namely that bicycles are toys. "nomal" people don't spend $8,000 on toys; and the irrational spending habits of the rich are oh so different from the rational; non-influenced by fad, culture, advertizing, independent choices "we" normal god fearing americans make when spending our money.

imho


agreed.
this article will affect the market as much as
knowing who wore vera wang or jil sander at
the oscars does for the fashion tribe.

[imho]

agreed.
this article will affect the market as much as
knowing who wore vera wang or jil sander at
the oscars does for the fashion tribe.

yup. (nice analogy; you never should have given up that writing gig.)

[atmo]

yup. (nice analogy; you never should have given up that writing gig.)


that was a hard post for me cuzza i was a real
major league jil sander devotee until she lost
her name to her factors atmo.

[imho]

that was a hard post for me cuzza i was a real
major league jil sander devotee until she lost
her name to her factors atmo.

yeah it was tough times....but what they're doing with whites now....its perfictally sylablic....

imho

[atmo]

yeah it was tough times....but what they're doing with whites now....its perfictally sylablic....

imho



dressed in jil sander.
listening to spandau ballet.
where does the time go imho?

[Louis]

articles like these are solely written to sensationalize a phenomon that is viewed as strange, other or bizare in order to re-affirm "what we all know"; namely that bicycles are toys. "nomal" people don't spend $8,000 on toys

Some folks are into cycling and spend $8k+ on bikes. Some folks are into cars, or boats, or art or you name it and spend $8k+ on their thing. Nothing strange there, and I don't think it's seen as that bizarre.

It's just whatever type of Kool-ade you happen to drink, and if you don't like the other guy's flavor you can't understand why he drinks so much of it, but you sure like your flavor.

It don't think folks have a problem with good 'ol boys who spend money on bass boats (let's assume that they can afford it, which is a different issue) and the same holds for Lycra-clad types like us who spend the money on bikes.

Lots of folks spend $8k on non-essential stuff and that's probably a huge part of the US economy. I'm not sure I understand what the big deal is here.

Louis

[atmo]

I'm not sure I understand what the big deal is here.

Louis




overheard in nearby jane austen...
“well, well, my dear, what are we but
fodder for our neighbors’ amusement?"

[dave thompson]

I would venture to say that most of the readers of that NY Times 'news article' still hold the view that bikes are inexpensive and think that a grand for a two-wheeler is high livin'. When they read that a bike costs 8 large or even up to 20K, it's most likely beyond their comprehension. What else costs that kind of dough? A good used second car, a new economy car. What's a bike? To them a collection of tubes with skinny tires that often gets in their way on the road.

Nope, that article is of the same nature as the ones where the man missing for 20 years is finally reunited with his family. It's fluff, puff and trying to be sensational. Poorly conceived and a disservice to the bicycling community.

[Kevan]

Rich folk read the NYT business section and it's mostly the same folk buying these bikes. WSJ is at fault for doing the same. Facts 'r' facts. I think to the noncyclists, the article opens their eyes to what's going on out there on the roads and that it is indeed possible to build a bike that avoids pain to chronic body problems. Might even get some person to buy a Serotta, good for them. Good grief, even we have differing opinions on everything and would find exception with the article had one of us written it.

[bcm119]

articles like these don't sell bikes. articles like these are solely written to sensationalize a phenomon that is viewed as strange, other or bizare in order to re-affirm "what we all know"; namely that bicycles are toys. "nomal" people don't spend $8,000 on toys; and the irrational spending habits of the rich are oh so different from the rational; non-influenced by fad, culture, advertizing, independent choices "we" normal god fearing americans make when spending our money.

imho
True. The article makes a spectacle of this strange $8000 bicycle phenomena because bikes can't be justified by things like "family" or "safety" and other excuses that people use to justify giant houses, giant cars, etc.

[Louis]

Dave,

While that may be the case, I don’t think that anyone who investigates enthusiasts of any stripe should be surprised that they are willing to spend money on what they love. That’s why I think we’re making this out to be a bigger deal than it is.

On any normal distribution when you get to the tails things are by definition different than the are over in the middle. Most of us here are at end of the distribution and it shows.

Louis

[dave thompson]

Dave,

While that may be the case, I don’t think that anyone who investigates enthusiasts of any stripe should be surprised that they are willing to spend money on what they love. That’s why I think we’re making this out to be a bigger deal than it is.

On any normal distribution when you get to the tails things are by definition different than the are over in the middle. Most of us here are at end of the distribution and it shows.

Louis
I know what you're saying. During the time I was in the motorcycle biz, there were many articles of that nature printed (this was back in the day when a Harley was 5K) My dig at the NY Times piece is that it was sensationalist, disguised as 'news', and in no way (IMO) explored enthusiasts, bicycles or in anyway shed any light on "us" as normal folks who like something a lot.

[Kevan]

about high-zoot golf clubs.

[andy mac]

my buddy just bought a wake-boarding boat for $45k.

don't ask him about the the monthly docking fees, daily fuel/beer cost etc.


more people on bikes = good

injured people who can find a way to do something they love = good

we now resume normal whining.

[keno]

some of you folks questioning the content, editorial and placement judgment of the New York Times, the newspaper of record?

BTW, Grant, the piece appears under "Your Money", which is in the business section. I suppose if they had a piece about the cost of new sports arenas, i.e. "their money" (if you don't count the municipal bonds involved in their financing), it would have appeared elsewhere in the newspaper of record.

Incidentally, there is no article that can be written about bikes that can approach what seems to be to me the lunacy of the price one can pay for a watch.

keno

[Dr. Doofus]

it's like lifestyles of the rich and famous but with walter benjamin directing.

imho

specialized angel of history

yo

[catulle]

as everyone slowly moves to the other end of the group w bench... (http://www.arlo.net/lyrics/alices.shtml)
fade to black atmo.

Hey, Alice is a compatriot, atmo. I don't want no pickle, I just want to ride on my motorcicle. I don't wanna die, I just wanna ride on my motorbike.....

[NAHBS]

Whine whine, *****, moan, whine some more.
*** is up with this?
Do you folks understand what this article represents to framebuilders?

Let me give you my take, then feel free to debate me.

1. The article is saying ostensibly that "its not uncommon to spend 8K on a bicycle".
2. The shops main customers on high end bikes are 40 year old women.
3. The article mentions two well known, reputable brands (at least)
4. This type of article can/will be good for framebuilders. I am not endorsing the "rich white" client phenomenon.


8 THOUSAND dollars on a bike...why is that ridiculous? If you have the money, you can spend 500k on a Saleen Automobile, which is for the most part all handmade.
40 year old women wanting to get in shape and take care of themselves means more happy 40-50 year old men... :banana:
Serotta and Seven are used, both reputable brands, whether you like them or agree with what they charge or not. Public opinion of those names is high.
If the article shows that people are spending money on CUSTOM bikes, for whatever reason, those that have money might order one from a custom builder to replace that Trek or Scott hanging in the garage. How would more clients be bad for a framebuilder in this economy? Our country was based on manufacturing goods from small businesses and "cottage industry" types. Most everyone now in the industry goes overseas for cheap labor, which in my eyes in ruining the economy. If you dont have the labor pool to do the job, thats one thing, but this is purely driven to the satisfaction of the shareholders and the companies "bottom line".
Support your local framebuilder, or guitar maker (luthier), or Tailor, or whatever...its not just about saving your cash, its about quality and getting what YOU want!

Enough rant.
Commence with flames.

BTW, I did notice that semi regular poster on here was quoted... ;)

DW

[atmo]

Do you folks understand what this article represents to framebuilders?

Let me give you my take, then feel free to debate me.

1. The article is saying ostensibly that "its not uncommon to spend 8K on a bicycle".



i'll be brief -
this article was not about framebuilding, it was about price.
i also think it was not about framebuilders but about what was
once referred to by maynard iirc as co-opting smallness. in
his vn piece he used brewers and microbrewers as the analogy.
(apologies if this reference should be about some other author,
but the sentiment is the same.)
what i read in this nyt story is that there are folks that have money,
and there is a segment of the bicycle industry that will tweak its
production in order to get a slice of that pie. i have no problem at
all with that part of it.
imho atmo, at best, the text infers that you can throw money at a
problem and hope to solve it, and i also came away with the notion
that folks (over 40, whatever) should just do it.

[NAHBS]

i'll be brief -
imho atmo, at best, the text infers that you can throw money at a
problem and hope to solve it, and i also came away with the notion
that folks (over 40, whatever) should just do it.


Agreed. And that would be bad for custom builders in what way?
I know that there are a percentage of consumers out there who want nothing more than to have something no one else has. This means, they would rather go with an unknown brand of like quality, than to ride the same stuff that all the kids on the block have.

DW

[atmo]

Agreed. And that would be bad for custom builders in what way?
I know that there are a percentage of consumers out there who want nothing more than to have something no one else has. This means, they would rather go with an unknown brand of like quality, than to ride the same stuff that all the kids on the block have.

DW

i never intimated that this story was bad for framebuilders.
however, wrt to your reply, did you even read this:

"A decade ago, a custom bike was something you waited a year or more for from a one-man shop," said Jennifer Miller, one of the founding employees of Seven Cycles, which opened in 1997 and can generally produce a customized bike in six weeks."

to wit, this article, as i posted earlier, was not about framebuilding
or framebuilders, it was about demographics, niche, market share,
etc. imho atmo, the subject of the story is not far different than the
panasonic custom program of the late 80s, and/or the cannondale
custom program of a few years ago, and certainly no different than
levi, strauss' short lived custom-made jeans program that necessitated
a consumer getting a body scan and then taking receipt 6 weeks later
of a pair of one-of-a-kind levis made just for him/her.

[NAHBS]

i never intimated that this story was bad for framebuilders.
however, wrt to your reply, did you even read this:

"A decade ago, a custom bike was something you waited a year or more for from a one-man shop," said Jennifer Miller, one of the founding employees of Seven Cycles, which opened in 1997 and can generally produce a customized bike in six weeks."

to wit, this article, as i posted earlier, was not about framebuilding
or framebuilders, it was about demographics, niche, market share,
etc. imho atmo, the subject of the story is not far different than the
panasonic custom program of the late 80s, and/or the cannondale
custom program of a few years ago, and certainly no different than
levi, strauss' short lived custom-made jeans program that necessitated
a consumer getting a body scan and then taking receipt 6 weeks later
of a pair of one-of-a-kind levis made just for him/her.


And??
it means to me, at least there was an article written about bikes.
Better than no article at all, or do you think it was so absolute tripe that it never should have been published?
I dont see what all the negativity is about, its an article about bikes.
2 companies were listed (plugged)
***?

DW

[Ozz]

...Lots of folks spend $8k on non-essential stuff and that's probably a huge part of the US economy. I'm not sure I understand what the big deal is here...
yeah, what Louis said.

Worst case...a couple thousand people buy bikes they never use. Good for the framebuilders, in the short run at least.

[atmo]

And??
it means to me, at least there was an article written about bikes.

that's got nothing to do with anything i posted.
they could print anything and one could suggest
it's good because folks ought to read.

Better than no article at all, or do you think it was so absolute tripe that it never should have been published?

no, i never said or suggested that. read my posts.
the article is good for commerce, the bicycle industry,
for large scale makers that can co-opt smalless and
scale down to custom orders, and for folks that otherwise
may have bought a box bike and now realize that the bicycle
industry can customize bicycles (with your company logo,
no less!!)

I dont see what all the negativity is about, its an article about bikes.
2 companies were listed (plugged)
***?

DW
i'm sorry - i meant to imply no negitivity, but where did you
read same? my posts spoke to the point of the article, which
i've already mentioned 2-3 times thusfar!

[imho]

that article sucks. it belittles frame building and racing bicycles mutating them into a commodity of ridicule. it will not sell bikes; it'll just cause smug nyt readers to rejoice at how much smarter they are for not "wasting" their money when they lease the car they can't afford that was at least discussed on its techinical merits in the autosection of the same newspaper.

imho

[manet]

that article sucks. it belittles frame building and racing bicycles mutating them into a commodity of ridicule. it will not sell bikes; it'll just cause smug nyt readers to rejoice at how much smarter they are for not "wasting" their money when they lease the car they can't afford that was at least discussed on its techinical merits in the autosection of the same newspaper.

imho

come to foxwoods and lease a meivici

[NAHBS]

I think I have wasted too much time on this.
out.

DW

[atmo]

I think I have wasted too much time on this.
out.

DW


wasting is a personal choice and often under-rated.
your plight is the framebuilder and you want to help
him. that's commendable. but that has nothing to do
with the article.
the article is good for business, but it's not an article
about what, say - the exhibitors at nahbs represent.
if anything, it tends to belittle their efforts atmo, especially
this comment, pasted for the second time:

"A decade ago, a custom bike was something you waited a year or more for from a one-man shop," said Jennifer Miller, one of the founding employees of Seven Cycles, which opened in 1997 and can generally produce a customized bike in six weeks."

heck - it's all good. folks can get out the amex and in
2 months or less get the ne plu ultra. good for all, i say.
folks sell. folks ride. folks prosper in commerce and in
health. but, again, the article is not about framebuilding
as i tried to infer in my first post. (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=212862&postcount=6)

[manet]

http://members.aol.com/MILsnacks/MisterEd/MrEDEp26.JPG

[gary135r]

Worst case...a couple thousand people buy bikes they never use. Good for the framebuilders, in the short run at least.
Good for us too. Lots of used bikes to chose from.

[catulle]

I think we have all heard the story about how, long ago, a man would sell shoes if he lived close to cows and would use the hide for making shoes. While others sold the meat, the shoemaker would make shoes and people would come from afar to buy a pair of shoes. Back then, shoes were shoes and all shoes were very much the same. Of course, the shoemaker would make the best shoe his self-esteem and wits would let him.

Then someone else figured it was a good idea to sell shoes and started making shoes right next to the first shoemaker. The second shoemaker would try to build a better shoe in order to be able to sell it. The first shoemaker would then send his shoes to be sold in the next town and now had two outlets. As a result, the second shoemaker not only opened a store on the next town but would tell everyone his shoes were better than the others; and reached to sell in the next two towns. Now he needed people to sell his shoes, he needed money to pay them and to buy hide from afar as the nearby cows where not enough to supply him with the hide he needed. And, well, things got more complicated.

Shoemakers and bell makers and knife makers and dress makers and hat makers and others proliferated in such fashion until Jesus kicked the merchants out of the temple because what had started as a means had turned into an end. Of course, Jesus was hung on a cross by the emperor and things went back to business as usual, so to speak. Presently, we have Babson, Wharton and the Harvard Business School, among so many others, in order to deal with the complexity of it all. Not to mention Madison Avenue and mass media and so on.

So what's this perfectly shallow and dubious account to do with the NYT article? I think the NYT article reflects the most mundane and banal aspect of bicycles as we still know them. If the article were about a frame maker who built a bicycle that cured a back problem , rather than about a $20,000 bicycle, the article would not have trascended. Indeed, the article is good for business. I wonder, though, if it is important for a bicyle lover. And I just don't buy the trite argument that if it is good for business is good for the consumer. Saddly, that's not the way the system functions. I'm glad to report, though, that in spite of the wild rush for profits as the raison d'etre for most businesses, a few good people more concerned about what they make than with how much they make still remain.

Of course, I want to make very clear that although my post might be critical of what are common business practices, I do not mean to point a finger at Serotta in any way. Very much to the contrary, it is my firm belief from what I have been able to learn so far that Mr. Serotta could hardly separate any part of his life from bicycles, that he is totally committed to building the best bicycle he can, and that he is an honest warrior trying to survive in a very tough business environment. I must say this in case anyone tries to read something from the white space between the lines.

[Louis]

it'll just cause smug nyt readers to rejoice at how much smarter they are for not "wasting" their money when they lease the car they can't afford

Have we been reading the same newspaper?

As I recall, the NYT has plenty of ads for Louis Vuitton luggage, Prada bags, Manolo Blahnik shoes, Patek Philippe watches and apartments overlooking Central Park.

I really don't think that that demographic needs to feel smug about us wasting our pennies on a Serotta.

Louis

[bcm119]

As I recall, the NYT has plenty of ads for Louis Vuitton luggage, Prada bags, Manolo Blahnik shoes, Patek Philippe watches and apartments overlooking Central Park.

I really don't think that that demographic needs to feel smug about us wasting our pennies on a Serotta.

Louis
I think thats just the point. Its all about priorities, and to the vast majority of this demographic bicycles are a bit childish compared to important things like shoes and watches. I really don't see how one could not come away with the feeling that this article belittles high end frame building. Its not a big deal, but someone posted the article looking for opinions and thats mine.

[manet]

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e61/easterncaster/IMG_0128.jpg

[djg]

wasting
the article is good for business, but it's not an article
about what, say - the exhibitors at nahbs represent.
if anything, it tends to belittle their efforts atmo, especially
this comment, pasted for the second time:

heck - it's all good. folks can get out the amex and in
2 months or less get the ne plu ultra. good for all, i say.
folks sell. folks ride. folks prosper in commerce and in
health. but, again, the article is not about framebuilding
as i tried to infer in my first post. (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=212862&postcount=6)

Folks, as the opinionated feller suggests, this isn't really an article about frame building or even bicyles, and it probably is all good. This is a market chatter piece in the place in the paper that prints such things. It's very light on the research, if you can call it research, and not many would suspect otherwise. It's very light on the analysis, if you can call it analysis, and not many would suspect otherwise. The effects of such an article are an empirical matter that would be exceedingly hard to determine, but apart from suspecting that the magnitude of any effect is likely unspectacular, I'll guess at a few:

(1) Most of the folks on the planet will ignore it.
(2) Most readers of that paper will ignore it.
(3) Some readers of that paper will have a little chuckle that neither serves nor hurts anyone.
(4) Some readers will be outraged for one reason or another--a few of them have posted here already.
(5) Some readers will write to the editor to point out a perceived flaw in the punctuation.
(6) On balance, I'll guess that the article will prompt a few more folks to consider (a) buying a bike, (b) buying an expensive bike, (c) buying an expensive bike from one of the sources mentioned in the article, and (d) buying a custom or made-to-measure frame or bike from somebody else entirely. With regard to (d), to whatever extent additional folks go looking for a multi-K bike or frame that somebody might label "custom," such folks might start looking and reading and talking and going who knows where.

Folks want all sorts of things for all sorts of reasons. Such reasons may be more or less transparent to themselves or others. I suspect that the article will have some small advertising effect for the objects mentioned, and that it will have some small--perhaps smaller--advertising effect for things that might work as substitutes in the market (independent of whether they'd work as substitutes for ME, or even occur to me as possible substitutes). I could be wrong here--making it all up like the rest of ya--but that's my guess.

[mp!]

how much is a custom-made 40-year-old woman?

[atmo]

I really don't see how one could not come away with the feeling that this article belittles high end frame building.

i agree.
i don't think it belittles high end frame building at all.
it opens more doors for mass producers to offer a
custom service, not unlike the levis example i noted
above. i believe that nearly all framebuilders live outside
the lines that are described and pigeonholed in the story,
but the story does give the larger makers the incentive to
co-opt smallness* and glom onto the uniqueness that comes
from a hand's-on builder.




* are you sick of this term yet?!

[catulle]

how much is a custom-made 40-year-old woman?

Well, all I can say is that some are free and mighty sweet, iirc, atmo. Mighty sweet.

[Pastashop]

a well cut 1 carat diamond is 10k, and the resale value is 20-30% at best. ever wonder why people buy these things?..

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/198202/diamond

discuss...

[Grant McLean]

a well cut 1 carat diamond is 10k, and the resale value is 20-30% at best. ever wonder why people buy these things?..

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/198202/diamond

discuss...


...and some guys are repeat customers!

g

[andy mac]

a well cut 1 carat diamond is 10k, and the resale value is 20-30% at best. ever wonder why people buy these things?..

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/198202/diamond

discuss...



beats listening to the friggen complaining if you don't buy her one...

:rolleyes:

[NAHBS]

beats listening to the friggen complaining if you don't buy her one...

:rolleyes:


To quote Ron White...."Diamonds...that'll shut her up"

DW

[Kevin]

a well cut 1 carat diamond is 10k, and the resale value is 20-30% at best. ever wonder why people buy these things?..

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/198202/diamond

discuss...

Because she lets me buy bicycles :beer:

Kevin

[velokatz]

i'm sure he is.

interesting that every client photo has the stem upside down.

http://www.cascadebicyclestudio.com/photos/client#

g



Didn't see a single upside-down stem logo ...

[Grant McLean]

Didn't see a single upside-down stem logo ...

here's a bunch...

http://images.google.ca/images?q=topsy+turvy&hl=en&btnG=Search+Images

g

[cpg]

I think the article is better than nothing but only by a hair. Why only single out the "big little guys?" Yawn. It seems to me the writer didn't do much digging. Oh well.

Curt

[72gmc]

I can see where atmo is coming from. I can see where NAHBS is coming from. I defer to both in their expertise regarding the industry. And I think the article was well suited to the gloss-the-good-life, water-down-the-widget approach of the NYT business section. Satisfaction and information minimized by design. But it could have been just as well suited to the lifestyle section.

[atmo]

I can see where atmo is coming from. I can see where NAHBS is coming from. I defer to both in their expertise regarding the industry. And I think the article was well suited to the gloss-the-good-life, water-down-the-widget approach of the NYT business section. Satisfaction and information minimized by design. But it could have been just as well suited to the lifestyle section.


the writer is a seattle based. zac's shop is seattle based.
this was mostly likely a local feel-good story that got picked
up by the wire services atmo. that is not a judgement, just
an observation.

[manet]

here's a bunch...

http://images.google.ca/images?q=topsy+turvy&hl=en&btnG=Search+Images

g

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argie_bargie

[Grant McLean]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argie_bargie

http://images.google.ca/images?svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&q=squeeze+argy&btnG=Search

g

[Dekonick]

yeah, what Louis said.

Worst case...a couple thousand people buy bikes they never use. Good for the framebuilders, in the short run at least.


And good for someone else when the bikes come for sale...at a later date on FeeBAY :beer: