barn find Charger Daytona

[oliver1850]

My first car was a 1970 Charger. At the time you could still order the nose cone and wing from Mopar. I considered making a replica but didn't do it. I was never that fond of the look of the nose but knew how few were built. Can't imagine stumbling onto one in a bar or field.

http://news.yahoo.com/69-daytona-left-to-rot-in-a-barn-could-fetch-222005876.html

[rnhood]

I was never a fan of the nose cone and to a lesser extent, the high spoiler. But the Charger Daytona represented the pinnacle of muscle cars, and was reasonably aero. I was in love with the '68 Charger body style. Never had one, but always wanted one.

[likebikes]

So ugly.

[gomango]

I grew up with a gearhead dad.

We had an AAR Cuda, a 340 six pack Dart Swinger and a string of Chargers that were cast offs from my Grandpa.

Eventually, Dad brought home a 1970 Superbird and mom had a fit!!!!!

FWIW It drove him nutzo that I was into Euro sports cars.

He wouldn't touch them when my brother and I worked on them.

Liked it when we sold them.

Mark, thanks for sharing this one. Great memories for me. :)

[Llewellyn]

So ugly.

Americans always seem to be able to put the "muscle" into muscle cars, but never the style. You need the Europeans to do that.

[ptourkin]

Americans always seem to be able to put the "muscle" into muscle cars, but never the style. You need the Europeans to do that.

Plum Crazy was the epitome of style. 68-71 Mopar ruled in its own way without following anyone else.

[donevwil]

Americans always seem to be able to put the "muscle" into muscle cars, but never the style. You need the Europeans to do that.

The Daytona and Superbird, in addition to a few others, were designed specifically to race on high speed ovals and were based on existing platforms. "Stock" car racing back then required that the base vehicle be available for purchase by the general public. These cars were not built with any intent to appeal to the general public. Most actually didn't sell for years.

The cars won virtually every race on a high speed oval and in short order the rules were changed making them illegal, followed by the legendary Hemi. Oh the good ol' days.

[Plum Hill]

Rarer yet would be the Charger 500 with flush grill and backlight.
For me, I'd rather have a Talladega or Cyclone Spoiler.

http://www.wwnboa.org

[Shoeman]

I can remember when they were new & the dealers had a hard time selling them. They sat on the lots for a long time with big discounts at the end I believe.

[oliver1850]

I grew up with a gearhead dad.

We had an AAR Cuda, a 340 six pack Dart Swinger and a string of Chargers that were cast offs from my Grandpa.

Eventually, Dad brought home a 1970 Superbird and mom had a fit!!!!!

FWIW It drove him nutzo that I was into Euro sports cars.

He wouldn't touch them when my brother and I worked on them.

Liked it when we sold them.

Mark, thanks for sharing this one. Great memories for me. :)

Wow, an AAR and a Superbird! Friend in high school had a yellow AAR Cuda, but I don't think I ever saw a Superbird in the wild.

Too bad you missed our gravel ride as there's a big Mopar collector in the start town. When I got back into town he was out in the lot working on a black Dodge that I hadn't seen before and couldn't quite identify, but it reminded me of my Charger. Turned out to be a '69 Super Bee. I asked what it was worth and he said he'd probably ask $28,000 for it. He has a Hemi car but I can't remember if it's a GTX or something else.

Road and Track was my favorite magazine growing up and I liked lots of European cars I read about. Just not very practical to own one living so far from anywhere to buy a part. We could generally keep a GM car going with used parts as there were numerous salvage yards within 15 miles. Not many foreign cars in the yards around here.

[oliver1850]

Rarer yet would be the Charger 500 with flush grill and backlight.
For me, I'd rather have a Talladega or Cyclone Spoiler.

http://www.wwnboa.org


I never knew about the 500 being designed for better aerodynamics than the other Chargers. I remember seeing one, and just thought it was a base model.

I almost bought a '69 Torino instead of the Charger. Torinos and even more so the Cyclone look huge and heavy to me now. In a Mercury, my favorite would be the Cougar.

[Charles M]

I'll see your Charger and raise you a 58' Aston Martin DB4...

http://roa.h-cdn.co/assets/15/50/768x512/gallery-1449699043-img-7961.jpg


http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/news/a27563/cuban-aston-martin-barn-find/ (http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/news/a27563/cuban-aston-martin-barn-find/)

[gasman]

The Daytona and Superbird, in addition to a few others, were designed specifically to race on high speed ovals and were based on existing platforms. "Stock" car racing back then required that the base vehicle be available for purchase by the general public. These cars were not built with any intent to appeal to the general public. Most actually didn't sell for years.

The cars won virtually every race on a high speed oval and in short order the rules were changed making them illegal, followed by the legendary Hemi. Oh the good ol' days.


Supposedly the only reason the spoiler stuck up so high was so that the versions sold to the public would have a usable trunk. In other words, the trunk couldn't be opened otherwise.
At least that's what I remember reading in Road and Track back when it was a real car magazine.

[fuzzalow]

Boy, those stock cars bring back memories of grammar school. Back when the cars were built on the stamped steel chassis of the actual production cars. The era before the restrictor plate I think.

Whereas now they are tubular steel chassis with whatever look-a-like body shell the race car is supposed to loosely represent - all done away from the lines of a production car for reasons of slipperier aerodynamics.

I don't have any idea how the NASCAR superspeedway cars sold in dealers but I doubt they weren't all spoken for as presold at the time they were offered for sale. There were no more than 500 made for each Daytona & Superbird for the MOPAR crowd and should have been the same number for the Talledega Torino. Ford and Dodge/Plymouth were required to make that many to homolagate them as legal for "stock car" racing being those models were actually sold to the public. They were never production run cars and I'd question whether any were actually made in a Ford or Chrysler facility - It would seem more sense to subcontract this out to somebody else.

I have seen very few of these in the wild and what I might have witnessed on the street may well have been modded or counterfeits. These superspeedway edition cars have been highly coveted and valued for a long, long time.

[whateveronfire]

I'll see your Charger and raise you a 58' Aston Martin DB4...



Yes please. Where are these mythical barns?!

[oliver1850]

When Grady brought up sporty cars, it got me to thinking of the ones I liked but couldn't afford/had no business owning. One of the first that came to mind was a DB4GT. Sports cars seemed expensive then, but if you look at the classifieds in old R&Ts, there are some amazingly cheap cars (cheap DB4GTs are probably lacking). Owning one for 35 or 40 years might still have engaged the "no business owning" clause.

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

I'll see your Charger and raise you a 58' Aston Martin DB4...

http://roa.h-cdn.co/assets/15/50/768x512/gallery-1449699043-img-7961.jpg


http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/news/a27563/cuban-aston-martin-barn-find/ (http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/news/a27563/cuban-aston-martin-barn-find/)

Wow.

[gomango]

When Grady brought up sporty cars, it got me to thinking of the ones I liked but couldn't afford/had no business owning. One of the first that came to mind was a DB4GT. Sports cars seemed expensive then, but if you look at the classifieds in old R&Ts, there are some amazingly cheap cars (cheap DB4GTs are probably lacking). Owning one for 35 or 40 years might still have engaged the "no business owning" clause.

We went through a string of "project" sports cars back in the 70s and 80s.

My parents and friends begged me to stay off my motorcycles after a near death accident.

I owned three TR6s at one point. Also an Austin Healey 3000, a Porsche 912, a MGBGT and a few others. Couple of Fiat Spiders just for good measure.

We were flipping them for very little profit, but we sure had fun learning all of the "unusual" design/engineering flaws of those cars.

I'd sure like to have the Austin Healey back at this point. :)

[oliver1850]

I liked all those cars (especially the 3000) but never owned any of them. I used to walk by a BGT and a TR6 on the way to class in Urbana. Housemate had a 124 Spyder which was a pretty nice car, another had a Spitfire. I always wanted an MG A, an early E Jaguar, a Pantera, an XJ12, and many others. Seriously considered buying a 308 GT4 in the 80s when they could be had very cheap.

[thirdgenbird]

I would love a BGT with a worked over suspension and a bit more power.

[oliver1850]

I would think a Buick 3.8 with supercharger would be about right.

[thirdgenbird]

Or a fuel injected rover v8

[Ronsonic]

My favorite barn find was the guy who ended up with a Pontiac Tempest. He listed it on eBay for a few hundred. Turns out to be an old Factory Experimental model got bid up over $200,000.

Guy had no idea.

http://www.hotrod.com/cars/featured/0905phr-1963-pontiac-tempest-super-duty/

[buldogge]

Two motors from the same family tree...

The MGBV8s used Rover 3.9s...direct descendent of the Buick AL 215...The modern 3.8 is the same architecture with the (2) front cylinders chopped off. Some guys use 3.8 front covers to do a swap to serpentine belts and better oiling on 215s.

I almost bought a TR6 to do a 215/3.9 swap once...I already have a '62 Skylark with a built 215...along with a 3.9 block and Buick 300 crank and heads from a stillborn supercharged 4L project...figured I better get the "stock" set-up back on the road first (been sitting almost 20 years now...sigh.).

-Mark in St. Louis

I would think a Buick 3.8 with supercharger would be about right.

Or a fuel injected rover v8

[gomango]

I almost bought a TR6 to do a 215/3.9 swap once...

-Mark in St. Louis

I put Webers, a Pacesetter header and an Ansa exhaust system on my 1972 and it certainly spiced things up. Can't imagine that much more power in that car. It felt like an over-powered go kart with the mods I did.

[buldogge]

Yeah...I wasn't terribly impressed with the chassis, one of the reasons I passed on it. I would have fabbed a new front subframe and figured out something for the rear..maybe one of the aftermarket Ford 9" rear independent suspension set-ups.

-Mark

I put Webers, a Pacesetter header and an Ansa exhaust system on my 1972 and it certainly spiced things up. Can't imagine that much more power in that car. It felt like an over-powered go kart with the mods I did.

[Seramount]

My favorite barn find was the guy who ended up with a Pontiac Tempest. He listed it on eBay for a few hundred. Turns out to be an old Factory Experimental model got bid up over $200,000.

Guy had no idea.

http://www.hotrod.com/cars/featured/0905phr-1963-pontiac-tempest-super-duty/

very cool story, thanks for posting it...

[oliver1850]

Nice to see a SD Tempest survives. My friend Bill worked with Arnie Beswick for years. I remember seeing one of the tiger striped Pontiacs parked at Bill's house when I was in grade school. I think Arnie's car was destroyed in his shop fire, and had been modified into an A/FX altered wheelbase car by then.

[Neil]

Got to be the '71 Road Runner for me:

http://image.hotrod.com/f/17713893+w660+h495+cr1/mopp_0904_01_z%2B1971_plymouth_road_runner%2Bfront view.jpg

[gomango]

Got to be the '71 Road Runner for me:

http://image.hotrod.com/f/17713893+w660+h495+cr1/mopp_0904_01_z%2B1971_plymouth_road_runner%2Bfront view.jpg

I love that car. :)

I grew up in a Mopar house, so I get it.

I looked for a 1968 Roadrunner for years.

When I finally found one, it was super expensive.

Out of my price range unforunately.

http://www.history-of-cars.com/images/plymouth/1968-road-runner-383-2door-coupe-023.jpg

[Neil]

If I do move to the US I'd quite like an El Camino, purely because I can claim it's a Ute, albeit a Ute that would probably quite rapidly gain headers, straight pipes etc etc.

[oliver1850]

Grady: previously mentioned Mopar guy has a really solid '68 or '69 Belvidere that would make a great clone. I never priced it due to fear of ownership.

Neil: I'd think an El Camino certainly qualifies as a Ute. Much lighter than a pickup truck, but will haul 90% of the stuff that pickups usually carry (which in my area is mostly 1 person and a twelve pack). I have a '65 in the barn that I really need to get to work on one day. It has an inline 6 and Powerglide. Drives really nice but I'd like to have a manual trans.

[Formulasaab]

Supposedly the only reason the spoiler stuck up so high was so that the versions sold to the public would have a usable trunk. In other words, the trunk couldn't be opened otherwise.
At least that's what I remember reading in Road and Track back when it was a real car magazine.

That may have been part of it, or maybe a convenient benefit. I never heard that before.

I don't know the design history for sure, nor am I aware of the aerodynamic knowledge or resources that MOPAR had at the time, but the reality is that:

A) It isn't a spoiler, it is a wing. The two things are not the same, accomplish different tasks, and are designed to work differently.

B) Aerodynamic regulations were almost nonexistent at the time. It was known (and still known) that the greatest effectiveness for a wing is if it is in clean air, in this case up above the turbulence created by the roof. That is the primary reason it is so high.

Witness the wings being developed for F1 and CanAm of the same time.

https://grandprixinsider.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/1969-01-graham-hill-lotus-49b-kyalami.jpg

http://deansgarage.com/wp-content/uploads/Chaparral-Stardust-1968.jpg

Another reason that the wings of the era were so high (though not in the case of the Daytona) is that the (simple) wing loses effectiveness if the distance from the body is less than the chord of the wing. When high-wings were outlawed because of strength issues, it necessitated the invention of the multi-element wings we see today.

[Lewis Moon]

That may have been part of it, or maybe a convenient benefit. I never heard that before.

I don't know the design history for sure, nor am I aware of the aerodynamic knowledge or resources that MOPAR had at the time, but the reality is that:

A) It isn't a spoiler, it is a wing. The two things are not the same, accomplish different tasks, and are designed to work differently.

B) Aerodynamic regulations were almost nonexistent at the time. It was known (and still known) that the greatest effectiveness for a wing is if it is in clean air, in this case up above the turbulence created by the roof. That is the primary reason it is so high.

Witness the wings being developed for F1 and CanAm of the same time.

https://grandprixinsider.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/1969-01-graham-hill-lotus-49b-kyalami.jpg

http://deansgarage.com/wp-content/uploads/Chaparral-Stardust-1968.jpg

Another reason that the wings of the era were so high (though not in the case of the Daytona) is that the (simple) wing loses effectiveness if the distance from the body is less than the chord of the wing. When high-wings were outlawed because of strength issues, it necessitated the invention of the multi-element wings we see today.

Wow, I really remember those days. That was a time when I really dug auto racing. Here are two other fond memories:
http://www.theroaringseason.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4609&d=1322090981

This one didn't need a wing...
http://www.racecar-engineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/chaparral-2j.jpg

[fuzzalow]

^ Re: All the wild and innovative technology mixed into the creation of those Chapparal race cars. Jim Hall was America's Colin Chapman.

[Lewis Moon]

^ Re: All the wild and innovative technology mixed into the creation of those Chapparal race cars. Jim Hall was America's Colin Chapman.

I really would love to see another "run what you brung" type series like CanAm. Nowadays, it seems like either the rules are too tight for any wild innovation or investment is so dear that no one feels like they can make mistakes.

[texbike]

The Daytona is such a unique car!

I came of age to drive and began to really appreciate cars in the mid 80s. Primarily Ford products at first (Mustangs/Cougars/Fairlanes/Galaxys) and then the Mopar stuff (TA Challenger/'65 Polara/'69 Superbee/'70 Charger) before moving on to the European stuff (a drive in a 2002 changed my perception of what a car should be!). I was obsessed with cars (kinda like I am with bikes now). It was the mid to late 80s and there was a TON of cool, old stuff floating around Houston/Austin/San Antonio and the surrounding towns. I always had a project in the works and at one point or another I was either looking at or working deals with individual sellers on some really rare, and sought after cars including a Superbird, Boss 302, Boss 429, Talladega, LS-6 Chevelle, 440 6 pack Superbee, 440 6 pack Challenger, and a L-79 Chevy II.

I scaled back on the car hobby when I finally decided to focus on school and never really picked it up again (at least to that level). Now I have an old, clunker 911 to satisfy the urge and spend way too much time on BaT looking at cool old cars. If you're not already visiting there, check it out at www.bringatrailer.com . There is an incredible amount of automotive knowledge that is shared by BaT members in the different car discussions.

Texbike

[jr59]

Now I have an old, clunker 911

Texbike

Something wrong with this statement

[David Kirk]

I have an uncle who is one of those guys who has has always seemed to live above his own means. My dad was a British sports car guy who owned an MG and was rebuilding a V12 E type Jag when my uncle showed up at our place with a brand new bright yellow Daytona and wanted to show my dad what 'real' looked like. He was so proud and my dad, having zero appreciation for such a big heavy car, did his best to show real interest in the huge car.

My uncle owned it for a month before the bank took it back and that was that. I recall sitting in it and loving the huge wing but i loved sitting in the E type and holding that lovely wooden wheel.

Funny the things one remembers.


dave

[fuzzalow]

I have an uncle who is one of those guys who has has always seemed to live above his own means. My dad was a British sports car guy who owned an MG and was rebuilding a V12 E type Jag when my uncle showed up at our place with a brand new bright yellow Daytona and wanted to show my dad what 'real' looked like. He was so proud and my dad, having zero appreciation for such a big heavy car, did his best to show real interest in the huge car.

My uncle owned it for a month before the bank took it back and that was that. I recall sitting in it and loving the huge wing but i loved sitting in the E type and holding that lovely wooden wheel.

Funny the things one remembers.


dave

There was no "seemed". That was in truth and in fact, the reality.

[texbike]

Something wrong with this statement

Not really at all. There's something inherently cool about an old, beater, air-cooled 911 that's fun to drive, handles like a go-cart, and makes all the right sounds. Mine isn't exactly beater status, but I'd probably enjoy one that was more. Magnus Walker is kinda famous for his cars that fit that profile.


Funny the things one remembers.

dave

A car's smells and sounds have always been the most powerful for me.

Texbike

[fuzzalow]

I really would love to see another "run what you brung" type series like CanAm. Nowadays, it seems like either the rules are too tight for any wild innovation or investment is so dear that no one feels like they can make mistakes.

I often pine for the nostalgia of what one was too. Cars with the simple elegance of a McLaren M8A.
http://media.cdn.mclaren.com/images/heritage/hero/m8d_1.jpg

But there's no going back. These were cars made to the flowing lines of how we didn't know how to make them faster.

[Formulasaab]

I really would love to see another "run what you brung" type series like CanAm. Nowadays, it seems like either the rules are too tight for any wild innovation or investment is so dear that no one feels like they can make mistakes.

I would too, SO MUCH.

The closest thing I can think of right now is the Grassroots Motorsports UTCC (Ultimate Track Car Championship). But that's an amateur level once-per-year event.

If it were a whole series, supported by actual money and rewarded by more than just bragging rights, the speeds would be truly massive. The only reason that the GMUTCC hasn't blown up with silly speeds is that there is no real money in winning it, so people bring whatever they run elsewhere to other rule sets.

15 years ago, SCCA DSR (D Sports Racing) was still considered a "tinkerer's" class, and the cars were some of the fastest of any SCCA class despite being regulated to one of the smallest engines. I think only CSR and FA (Formula Atlantic) were regularly faster. It was largely made up of homebuilt or converted chassis. But then along came a few companies (Radical and Van Diemen for example) and engineers (Stohr, for example) offering complete sorted cars and it all went to pot.

In my mind, the difference was when fluid dynamics and FEA software became easy enough to use and affordable enough so that pretty much anyone could validate their design without the need for extensive track and wind tunnel testing.

[David Kirk]

There was no "seemed". That was in truth and in fact, the reality.

I hear you......but at the time I was 8 years old and to me, at that time, it seemed like he had more than he could afford. Of course the issue was that he bought stuff he couldn't afford. But as an 8 year old stuff like this just floats out there without there being hard facts.

dave

[Seramount]

A car's smells and sounds have always been the most powerful for me.

Texbike

yep, I miss the horrendous sounds my big-block L-88 Camaro could make...the combination of a seriously lumpy cam and open headers was sheer music (probably not to my neighbors tho).

and this is exactly why I was so dismayed to see a Tesla destroy a 427 AC Cobra on Leno's show...the Cobra was rumbling, straining to idle, and then barking an angry note when the throttle was blipped, just oozing horsepower and high-compression goodness. you could almost smell a faint tinge of high-octane fuel and burning oil.

the Tesla just sat there all perfectly quiet and boring as hell.

and then it stomped the guts out of the ICE car...so very sad to me.

[David Kirk]

yep, I miss the horrendous sounds my big-block L-88 Camaro could make...the combination of a seriously lumpy cam and open headers was sheer music (probably not to my neighbors tho).

and this is exactly why I was so dismayed to see a Tesla destroy a 427 AC Cobra on Leno's show...the Cobra was rumbling, straining to idle, and then barking an angry note when the throttle was blipped, just oozing horsepower and high-compression goodness. you could almost smell a faint tinge of high-octane fuel and burning oil.

the Tesla just sat there all perfectly quiet and boring as hell.

and then it stomped the guts out of the ICE car...so very sad to me.

That's interesting - I personally don't see it as sad but I get it.

I think it's progress - the same way the Cobra marked progress from the previous era. I have an old issue of Automobile Quarterly in which they compare the 427 Cobra to what was the fastest car in the world just a few years before it - the Jag XK 150. The Jag looks like an old car compared to the Cobra yet is simply beautiful. The Cobra looks.....well it looks like solid muscle like the Cobra should. The Jag looks almost dainty and precious in comparison. The performance difference was startling - the Cobra could do 0-100 and back to zero and then back to 100 again before the Jag could get to 100 the first time. Think about that. One generation difference.

I imagine at the time that many felt sad that the Jag was no longer the top of the heap but it no doubt faded. I've seen a Tesla launch right in front of me and the shear power and fore involved is staggering and, IMO, no less cool than a 427 side-oiler would be. Much different to be sure but damn it's quick and impressive.

Very cool stuff.

dave

[fuzzalow]

I hear you......but at the time I was 8 years old and to me, at that time, it seemed like he had more than he could afford. Of course the issue was that he bought stuff he couldn't afford. But as an 8 year old stuff like this just floats out there without there being hard facts.

Yes indeed, right back at'cha.

And you know, it's a good thing that an 8-year-old doesn't know about money. It is IMO a corrosive thing when there is no cognizance of what money is and what it really means. There is always some kid that uses money as in instrument of derision and cruelty on other kids - without of course having the recognition as to what they are actually talking about. Stupidity learned from none other than the parents. Gotta love parenting - the buck stops there.

Yeah, when I was 8 I read car magazines and I told my parents I wanted a 911S. It probably cost $20K when a house in the borough of Queens in NYC cost $35K. They said "Sure, when you're older...".

[jonnyBgood]

That car would be lucky to sell for $180 fully restored....

We have a 1963 Corvette Split window in our family (It was my Grandfaters then my Fathers who has since passed away) that is all stock and we have been offered some pretty good money for it.... but not $180

[David Kirk]

Yes indeed, right back at'cha.

And you know, it's a good thing that an 8-year-old doesn't know about money. It is IMO a corrosive thing when there is no cognizance of what money is and what it really means. There is always some kid that uses money as in instrument of derision and cruelty on other kids - without of course having the recognition as to what they are actually talking about. Stupidity learned from none other than the parents. Gotta love parenting - the buck stops there.

Yeah, when I was 8 I read car magazines and I told my parents I wanted a 911S. It probably cost $20K when a house in the borough of Queens in NYC cost $35K. They said "Sure, when you're older...".

It's interesting isn't it? When I was that age my dad was a race car mechanic...first for himself and then eventually for British Leyland and then Porsche/Audi. He never made real money and the family car for years was a Studebaker, then SAAB 95s and finally a Ford Falcon wagon. Shortly before he died at the age of 48 he bought an E Type Jag that a customer had put a rod through the block on and set about fixing it as time and money allowed. It was just back up and running when he died.

But the odd and interesting thing was that he was surrounded by truly wealthy guys who had brought back exotic Italian and British sports cars from Europe and while they had the deep pockets my father didn't have he had the skills needed to make the exotic cars run as they should. At first my dad had a filling station and two repair bays on the side that he did tuning and race prep work while he wasn't pumping gas. Sometimes the gas pumping got in the way of the Ferrari work and something had to give. So my father John would enlist the car owner to pump gas for him so that he could work on their cars. I have a great photo somewhere of an Air force Colonel pumping gas in the foreground and my dad under the Colonel's Ferrari in the background.

I didn't know we had trouble making the rent for years...I just knew that John seemed to be the one with the knowledge and power to make those cars sing and that the guys in the uniforms had to pump the gas.

dave

[Formulasaab]

It's interesting isn't it? When I was that age my dad was a race car mechanic...first for himself and then eventually for British Leyland and then Porsche/Audi. He never made real money and the family car for years was a Studebaker, then SAAB 95s and finally a Ford Falcon wagon. Shortly before he died at the age of 48 he bought an E Type Jag that a customer had put a rod through the block on and set about fixing it as time and money allowed. It was just back up and running when he died.

But the odd and interesting thing was that he was surrounded by truly wealthy guys who had brought back exotic Italian and British sports cars from Europe and while they had the deep pockets my father didn't have he had the skills needed to make the exotic cars run as they should. At first my dad had a filling station and two repair bays on the side that he did tuning and race prep work while he wasn't pumping gas. Sometimes the gas pumping got in the way of the Ferrari work and something had to give. So my father John would enlist the car owner to pump gas for him so that he could work on their cars. I have a great photo somewhere of an Air force Colonel pumping gas in the foreground and my dad under the Colonel's Ferrari in the background.

I didn't know we had trouble making the rent for years...I just knew that John seemed to be the one with the knowledge and power to make those cars sing and that the guys in the uniforms had to pump the gas.

dave

Lovely story.

Have you read "The Last Open Road" by Burt Levy?

[David Kirk]

Lovely story.

Have you read "The Last Open Road" by Burt Levy?

I've heard great things but keep forgetting to pick up a copy - thanks for the reminder!


dave

[54ny77]

there's no replacement for displacement, as the saying goes.

tesla's are a helluva technological marvel, but they're an apples to beef jerky comparison.

as a car fan, i appreciate them (tesla's) for what they do.

yep, I miss the horrendous sounds my big-block L-88 Camaro could make...the combination of a seriously lumpy cam and open headers was sheer music (probably not to my neighbors tho).

and this is exactly why I was so dismayed to see a Tesla destroy a 427 AC Cobra on Leno's show...the Cobra was rumbling, straining to idle, and then barking an angry note when the throttle was blipped, just oozing horsepower and high-compression goodness. you could almost smell a faint tinge of high-octane fuel and burning oil.

the Tesla just sat there all perfectly quiet and boring as hell.

and then it stomped the guts out of the ICE car...so very sad to me.

[Louis]

and this is exactly why I was so dismayed to see a Tesla destroy a 427 AC Cobra on Leno's show...the Cobra was rumbling, straining to idle, and then barking an angry note when the throttle was blipped, just oozing horsepower and high-compression goodness. you could almost smell a faint tinge of high-octane fuel and burning oil.

the Tesla just sat there all perfectly quiet and boring as hell.

and then it stomped the guts out of the ICE car...so very sad to me.

http://www.collingsfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/AR-150727387-1024x514.jpg

[Seramount]

there's no replacement for displacement, as the saying goes.

tesla's are a helluva technological marvel, but they're an apples to beef jerky comparison.


it's just a nostalgia issue for me...my gear-head days are fondly remembered. hanging with my buddies, working on our cars, racing...breaking parts, replacing them with 'bigger, badder, faster' ones...good times.

60s muscle cars were so fun to grow up around. I even conned my dad into buying a 1969 GTO for the 'family car'...first time my mom put her foot into the right pedal she almost had a coronary.

[Formulasaab]

I've heard great things but keep forgetting to pick up a copy - thanks for the reminder!
dave

Based on your story, I think it will ring familiar with you.

[Formulasaab]

there's no replacement for displacement, as the saying goes.

tesla's are a helluva technological marvel, but they're an apples to beef jerky comparison.

as a car fan, i appreciate them (tesla's) for what they do.

There was a point in our history where the automobile could have gone a completely different direction. In the early days of cars, there were cars that ran electric motors, steam engines, or internal combustion engines. Steam, for a variety of reasons, was unlikely to win this race. But electricity and petroleum had roughly equal chances.

Without knowing the culture of business and politics, one could be forgiven for wondering why the internal combustion engine, being noisy, dirty, smelly, and... well... VERY noisydirtysmelly would have won out over the quiet and civilized electric car?

While I don't know the details, the obvious conclusion is that there was more, or perhaps EASIER, money to be made from internal combustion. As such, despite the nastiness people had to endure every time they started the dang contraptions up, we went almost 100% Otto Cycle.

What made me think of this is the comment about how the blisteringly fast Tesla makes Seramount sad. If not for the particular economics or politics around the turn of the century, the statement could well have been different...

"The Cobra made an amazingly good show of it, displaying the potential of the upstart internal combustion engine, but the abrasive noise and pervasive stink made me sad."

[dave thompson]

I would posit that the electric car didn't rise to the top for two reasons: the technology wasn't in place for mass use of electric cars (charging stations, reliable batteries, etc.) and politics/money. During the 30s and 40s General Motors surreptuously, quietly and deviously bought out or formed transit companies in various cities, scrapped the communities electric trolleys and replaced them with GM manufactured buses. GM wielded their significant influence over regional and local politicians to achieve their goals.

[Formulasaab]

I would posit that the electric car didn't rise to the top for two reasons: the technology wasn't in place for mass use of electric cars (charging stations, reliable batteries, etc.) and politics/money. During the 30s and 40s General Motors surreptuously, quietly and deviously bought out or formed transit companies in various cities, scrapped the communities electric trolleys and replaced them with GM manufactured buses. GM wielded their significant influence over regional and local politicians to achieve their goals.

I'm talking before the turn of the century... At the beginning, there wasn't technology for mass use of cars AT ALL. No petrol stations, just hitching posts for your horses and coincidentally, a place to put your Safety bicycle.

Arguably, it would have been EASIER to create an electric car infrastructure than a internal combustion one. Cities, the only places where cars were becoming common, were being wired for electric light at the time.

[oliver1850]

Gasoline was easier to transport to remote areas than electricity. My grandfather drove a Model T to remote areas of the west in the 1920s where there were no roads, much less electricity. But he could strap enough 5 gallon cans of gas on to get in and out. Our farm in IL got electricity in the teens I think, but that wasn't typical. Wikepedia states: "Of the 6.3 million farms in the United States in January 1925, only 205,000 were receiving centralized electric services." By 1925 a large percentage of those farms had motor vehicles of some sort. The rural population percentage was 60% in 1900 and 50% in 1920, so that was a large market that couldn't be served easily by electric vehicles compared with IC.

[malcolm]

That car would be lucky to sell for $180 fully restored....

We have a 1963 Corvette Split window in our family (It was my Grandfaters then my Fathers who has since passed away) that is all stock and we have been offered some pretty good money for it.... but not $180

Didn't read the whole thread but if you are talking about the super bird, fully restored numbers matching it'll get those kind of numbers. If it has the 426 hemi and a 4 speed it'll go 250k plus maybe approach 1/2 mil.

[thirdgenbird]

Gasoline was easier to transport to remote areas than electricity. My grandfather drove a Model T to remote areas of the west in the 1920s where there were no roads, much less electricity. But he could strap enough 5 gallon cans of gas on to get in and out. Our farm in IL got electricity in the teens I think, but that wasn't typical. Wikepedia states: "Of the 6.3 million farms in the United States in January 1925, only 205,000 were receiving centralized electric services." By 1925 a large percentage of those farms had motor vehicles of some sort. The rural population percentage was 60% in 1900 and 50% in 1920, so that was a large market that couldn't be served easily by electric vehicles compared with IC.

Gasoline is also a byproduct of kerosine. Kerosine was already being used to light these homes that didn't have electricity. Using the byproduct to power vehicles seemed both responsible and profitable. Before cars, they didn't know what to do with all the waste.


In a loosely related note, my daily driver is slated to get fuel injection in the next 30 days :)

[oliver1850]

I love Stingrays but there are a lot more '63s than Daytonas. That said, have a friend with an original, very low mileage '65. He has turned down $150,000 for it.

[malcolm]

I love Stingrays but there are a lot more '63s than Daytonas. That said, have a friend with an original, very low mileage '65. He has turned down $150,000 for it.

All those old vettes numbers matching bring big numbers. A '63 split window with fuel injection commands quite the price. Not hemi super bird money though

[oliver1850]

Gasoline is also a byproduct of kerosine. Kerosine was already being used to light these homes that didn't have electricity. Using the byproduct to power vehicles seemed both responsible and profitable. Before cars, they didn't know what to do with all the waste.


In a loosely related note, my daily driver is slated to get fuel injection in the next 30 days :)

I wonder what ingenious ways they found to dispose of gasoline before it was in demand? Reminds me of that tower east of IC that evidently burns off excess gas at times. Seems like there should be a better way.

What vehicle is getting modified?

[thirdgenbird]

I wonder what ingenious ways they found to dispose of gasoline before it was in demand? Reminds me of that tower east of IC that evidently burns off excess gas at times. Seems like there should be a better way.

What vehicle is getting modified?

I think they were just "tossing" it. Standard Oil did a lot of work to find a use.

My 63 rambler is getting fuel injection and an electric fan. I may also add an electric vacuum pump to enhance the windshield wiper functionality. I also need to sort out the blower motor. It quit on me a few weeks back.

[buldogge]

What injection set-up are you using?

-Mark in St. Louis

I think they were just "tossing" it. Standard Oil did a lot of work to find a use.

My 63 rambler is getting fuel injection and an electric fan. I may also add an electric vacuum pump to enhance the windshield wiper functionality. I also need to sort out the blower motor. It quit on me a few weeks back.

[thirdgenbird]

What injection set-up are you using?

-Mark in St. Louis

We have a megasquirt sitting here (bought off this forum of all places) but FiTech just showed a new option at PRI this last weekend. We are leaning that way right now. The MS may end up on a friend's car.

[Ronsonic]

There was a point in our history where the automobile could have gone a completely different direction. In the early days of cars, there were cars that ran electric motors, steam engines, or internal combustion engines. Steam, for a variety of reasons, was unlikely to win this race. But electricity and petroleum had roughly equal chances.

Without knowing the culture of business and politics, one could be forgiven for wondering why the internal combustion engine, being noisy, dirty, smelly, and... well... VERY noisydirtysmelly would have won out over the quiet and civilized electric car?

While I don't know the details, the obvious conclusion is that there was more, or perhaps EASIER, money to be made from internal combustion. As such, despite the nastiness people had to endure every time they started the dang contraptions up, we went almost 100% Otto Cycle.

Watts per pound, gasoline is great. The technology for batteries was extremely crude, very low power density and the things were and are horrifically filthy. Lead, sulfuric acid and every imaginable toxic byproduct contained in a tar-covered box. To this day, battery recycling is one of the dirtiest industries imaginable. Probably half the super-fund sites were battery related.

Never mind the power generation and transmission and those losses. Electric isn't free power, it just doesn't generate its pollution in the same place as the user giving the illusion that it is perfectly clean. Even modern batteries have pollution, safety, recycling and technical issues. Might be okay for luxury cars and other toys at the present but it isn't ready to displace anything for people needing to get places.

[oliver1850]

I think they were just "tossing" it. Standard Oil did a lot of work to find a use.

My 63 rambler is getting fuel injection and an electric fan. I may also add an electric vacuum pump to enhance the windshield wiper functionality. I also need to sort out the blower motor. It quit on me a few weeks back.

We need pics of the Rambler. What engine?

My dad's hired man had Ramblers until he bought a new '66 Malibu; after that he bought Chevrolets. We went on a lot of fishing (and trapping) trips in his Ramblers when I was a little kid. The local dealer that sold Ramblers just sold out recently after 100+ years in business with family ownership. I have a copy of my great-grandfather's newspaper in which "Taylor and Sons" have an ad for Studebaker wagons. No, not station wagons. Wooden wheeled wagons for Ol' Nell to pull. They must have done things right, as they survived all the brand changes through the years. The used '69 Torino I mentioned earlier was on their lot. I never did buy a car from them, but one of their salesmen used to ride with our group occasionally. I was disappointed to see it pass to another dealer with multiple brands and locations.

[thirdgenbird]

I will have to get some pictures hosted.

It's a 1963 rambler classic. It has the optional heater and 287 v8 but is otherwise a base model. Rubber floor, 3spd on the column and no amenities to speak of. The car is original to my small town. I've got the window sticker showing it was delivered to the dealer just down the road from my house. She has about 46k on the clock. its by no means a show car, but it looks pretty good for its age.

The previous owner replaced the rotten fuel tank and radiator with modern aluminum parts. He also installed dual exhaust. I plan to swap to fuel injection and an electric fan to make it a better driver. Maybe a little larger/wider steel wheel but nothing crazy. Just enough that I can get some more modern rubber on it.

The current priority is the starter and cracked manifold.

[oliver1850]

Sounds like a great car. A Rambler should not have carpeting. Although they would run forever, there was a point in time when they became very uncool. A friend had one around 1980, and was bored with it. One Sunday he decided to drain the oil and drive it until it seized. I'm not sure he was successful.

[Formulasaab]

Gasoline was easier to transport to remote areas than electricity. My grandfather drove a Model T(snip)

Again, I'm talking 1890s. By the 1920's, the fork in the road decision had already been made. By the time Ford invented his production line, the horseless carriage had already bolted and it was too late to close the gate.

If you use a little imagination, packing extra batteries could have been akin to packing extra gasoline. If Tesla (the man) had been more influential or successful as an entrepreneur for example, personal transportation today might have looked completely different.

Man, this has thread really took a tangent. Not that I mind... Just saying.

[Formulasaab]

Watts per pound, gasoline is great. The technology for batteries was extremely crude, very low power density and the things were and are horrifically filthy. Lead, sulfuric acid and every imaginable toxic byproduct contained in a tar-covered box. To this day, battery recycling is one of the dirtiest industries imaginable. Probably half the super-fund sites were battery related.

Never mind the power generation and transmission and those losses. Electric isn't free power, it just doesn't generate its pollution in the same place as the user giving the illusion that it is perfectly clean. Even modern batteries have pollution, safety, recycling and technical issues. Might be okay for luxury cars and other toys at the present but it isn't ready to displace anything for people needing to get places.

All completely true, but step back for a moment and imagine if a few key decisions or events had gone differently. The way we motivate around the earth could be completely different. I admit I'm reaching here but...

If the effort of research had been applied differently in the early days, say towards Tesla's ideas?

If the world had been less war-ridden when we stopped moving armies on foot and by wind then maybe less demand would have been put on short term mobility and speed solutions and more thought given to planned expansion and infrastructure?

When I look at how history is influenced by the winners, and how often those wins were narrow or influenced by luck...

For example... Motorsports influences how production car technology grows. What if the Granatelli Turbine HAD won the Indy 500, instead of being sidelined with 3 laps to go due to the failure of a transmission bearing? That was around the time when turbocharging was starting to become the only way to make enough power to compete in oval racing... What if?

I think it is fun to imagine.

[thirdgenbird]

Sounds like a great car. A Rambler should not have carpeting. Although they would run forever, there was a point in time when they became very uncool. A friend had one around 1980, and was bored with it. One Sunday he decided to drain the oil and drive it until it seized. I'm not sure he was successful.

I'm not sure why that happened either. Build quality seems decent, it's surprisingly good to drive, it has ample lower and it's not what I would call ugly. Whatever the case, it makes them cheap purchase.