OT: can this be the last OT topic here?

[Cicli]

I am just as guilty as some. I have even started threads titled OT poking fun at the OT topics and implying "on topic". I am new here and found this oasis of the internet cesspool a breath of fresh air. The reality is we all love bikes. Politics, religion and personal beliefs bring out the worst in people. I would like to propose that people take a pledge to keep this a cycling forum and keep it civil and promote the hobby or sport we love. Dont let this turn into an internet cesspool. The originals that started Paceline deserve this, I aim to be a good cycling steward and help keep it that way.
Anyone else?

[oldpotatoe]

I am just as guilty as some. I have even started threads titled OT poking fun at the OT topics and implying "on topic". I am new here and found this oasis of the internet cesspool a breath of fresh air. The reality is we all love bikes. Politics, religion and personal beliefs bring out the worst in people. I would like to propose that people take a pledge to keep this a cycling forum and keep it civil and promote the hobby or sport we love. Dont let this turn into an internet cesspool. The originals that started Paceline deserve this, I aim to be a good cycling steward and help keep it that way.
Anyone else?

On the only other forum I frequent, Cyclingnews, they have a 'General' section, where anything about anything can be discussed. Then a 'Bikes' section, etc. I think that's a good idea.

[Birddog]

How will I know which coffee grinder to buy? How will I know the value of a watch? Staying away or banning politics and religion is one thing, but shunning all OT's is a bit much IMO. I learn a lot of non bike sheat here. I'm assuming that thread about the San Bernardino shooting went astray, I didn't read any of it because I figured it would head into the cesspool. I think folks should keep their political views on Facebook where they can look foolish in front of and piss off a larger audience.

[ergott]

It's been discussed many time in the past. It was even tried. It doesn't stick. I think the off-season is more to blame for any vitriol than the topics discussed.

:beer:

[kramnnim]

I disagree, as Scott Weiland and auto repair horror stories are not cycling related. Edit: And toasters. Someone who has been here for 10 years posted about them, and the OP was the first to respond.

[bcroslin]

I don't mind the OT threads as long as they're useful but anything political is just dumb to post in a bike forum. I waded into the San Bernardino and quickly turned and ran and did not look back. I like to shout into the abyss as much as everyone else but I would support the mods deleting any thread that is political in nature. There's thousands of other sites to have political discussions but like the OP I come to Paceline as a respite from the insanity of the world around me to talk about the one thing I truly love: bikes.

[jwalther]

Why no separate OT or general forum? Is that an intentional decision, or some accident of forum history?

[eddief]

don't like em, don't read em. your mouse is your remote control.

[Dave B]

I can understand the hope of keeping a cycling forum related to just that, but I have a tremendous amount of respect for the variety of interests, experience, and points of views here.

We are a passionate group with differing ideas or even ideals. I don't think it is the content that causes us the most issues as it is the level of civility or respect. While I will admit that passionate people often times argue with head and heart, I think the ability to talk about whatever with people we do trust or admire is a good thing.

No place is perfect and sometimes we do cross the line, but we are adults and even though many hide behind their screen and spout off nonsense or argue, I think there is a place for honest arguments.

I have learned a great deal here beyond the cycling world and am grateful for that. I would hate to see that taken away because we cannot play well together. There have been threads started here that have evoked a tremendous amount of passion on my part and i have written many responses calling people out, but a simple delete and moving on was the best choice I could make.

Keep it civil, keep it friendly, and practice the lost art of understanding. So many arguments would be diminished if we first sought to understand before being understood.

(yes I had to read Stephen Covey in college like 10 times)

[ergott]

Why no separate OT or general forum? Is that an intentional decision, or some accident of forum history?
It was tried. A forum with just on-topic bike talk isn't as interesting as is ends up being. There are other places that do it and that's fine. Part of the culture here is the blend of topics. I typically stay out of the current events topics and sure enough the get locked and out of site soon enough.

It's time for me to head outside for a ride.


Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[tuscanyswe]

This forums best threads are more often than not OT.

[OtayBW]

It's been discussed many time in the past. It was even tried. It doesn't stick. I think the off-season is more to blame for any vitriol than the topics discussed.

:beer:

I disagree, as Scott Weiland and auto repair horror stories are not cycling related. Edit: And toasters. Someone who has been here for 10 years posted about them, and the OP was the first to respond.
We're not really in the off-season yet (at least here). All this is just a growing response to the nutzoid world/local events spiraling out of control on so many fronts, and the national disfavor in the feckless use of fearmongering, money and lobbying, and political spin employed at all levels to address the problem(s).

We got a fever and ain't got no cowbell.

[mistermo]

On the only other forum I frequent, Cyclingnews, they have a 'General' section, where anything about anything can be discussed. Then a 'Bikes' section, etc. I think that's a good idea.

Another vote for this. The only other forum I frequent is advrider.com. They have a similar section where anything goes called The Basement.

Agreed that my mouse is my remote control, but sometimes as I'm surfing, I'm lured in by something I really don't care to see. Kinda like when I'm surfing the grocery store aisles on an empty stomach and those Oreos are too good to pass up. It would've been better if I hadn't seen them in the first place.

[Climb01742]

I can understand the hope of keeping a cycling forum related to just that, but I have a tremendous amount of respect for the variety of interests, experience, and points of views here.

We are a passionate group with differing ideas or even ideals. I don't think it is the content that causes us the most issues as it is the level of civility or respect. While I will admit that passionate people often times argue with head and heart, I think the ability to talk about whatever with people we do trust or admire is a good thing.

No place is perfect and sometimes we do cross the line, but we are adults and even though many hide behind their screen and spout off nonsense or argue, I think there is a place for honest arguments.

I have learned a great deal here beyond the cycling world and am grateful for that. I would hate to see that taken away because we cannot play well together. There have been threads started here that have evoked a tremendous amount of passion on my part and i have written many responses calling people out, but a simple delete and moving on was the best choice I could make.

Keep it civil, keep it friendly, and practice the lost art of understanding. So many arguments would be diminished if we first sought to understand before being understood.

(yes I had to read Stephen Covey in college like 10 times)

+1

I've been here for awhile and for me, the real strength of the forum is that we're a community. We came here because of bikes but we stay for more diverse reasons. The range of knowledge shared by members is extraordinary, from financial to technological, how-to to where-to, pets, cars, vacations, home repairs and dealing with personal, family challenges. Yes, political/current events threads can test our civility and patience, but IMO they are a small price to pay for the far greater, far deeper, far more useful sharing of knowledge we do.

On a ride with a friend, how many topics get discussed? That's us. A long, winding ride with friends...and others.:beer::D;):banana:

[William]

It's been discussed many time in the past. It was even tried. It doesn't stick. I think the off-season is more to blame for any vitriol than the topics discussed.

:beer:

We've been down this road a number of times before and as mentioned, even tried a separate area. It did not work. One of the great things about this forum is the diversity of real world experience in many areas combined with our shared love of cycling/bicycles. It has worked very well and still does.

We appreciate your comments, but we will be sticking with the formula that works well for us here.








William

[bicycletricycle]

I would prefer a current event free forum,


toasters, car repair = awesome.

Gun control, terrorism = rather it was not here.

That's my 2 cents

[merlincustom1]

It's really easy. Don't like off topic threads? Don't read them.

[Tickdoc]

I'm fairly new here, but I gotta say I like it the way it is. Just like a dinner party or social gathering, you can choose to engage or excuse yourself as needed.

Meaningless OT posts migrate themselves to the back all on their own, in a timely fashion. Real imortant ones hang around. Raucous ones get shut down (appropriately) when they get out of hand.

There is enough on topic bike stuff to keep the forum focused, and this place has a great diversity of interesting, respectful, and passionate people to keep it going.

I'm just glad to be here, and I think an occasional reality check to reign in the madness is sufficient.

[Bradford]

I like not having a separate section. I read all the OT threads, sometimes I'd rather not, and most of them I find interesting or amusing.

What I really hate are the OT threads on a just a few topics. You know what they are and you know people's minds aren't going to change. The same people post the same crap about the same topics a couple of times per year.

My idea is to stop it. Don't post to them, don't read them, don't feed the trolls on either side. I'm personally tired of the same people saying the same things in the same inconsiderate ways several times per year.

I have to read these threads, as do all the moderators, so we can shut them down when they hit a certain point. You don't have to. Just stop reading them, and for goodness sake, stop posting to them. People's minds aren't going to change, so why take the bait?

An old boss of mine used to say don't argue with idiots, because you're not going win and someone walking down the street won't be able tell the difference. So just stop participating. You aren't going to win, but this community will continue to lose.

[fuzzalow]

Lotta diversity here. And in keeping with this forum's Serotta origins stemming from its outgrowth from a high end premium brand, there is knowledge and acceptance in finer things. Which applies to things for bike paraphernalia as well as opinions, ideas and thoughts more far ranging and far more complex and complicated than bikes.

Bikes are fairly simple devices. That is part of their allure. A simple device that gateways and transports anybody both in and into a complex and interesting world. And from all that can be found in this forum, take whatcha need and leave the rest.

[Burnette]

I've never been a fan of excessive censoring or overwrought monitoring. By banning things you incur more work for the moderators and agitate the population.
What we all seem to forget is that we control our eyes and hands, you could and should self censor and monitor your actions and then OT topics or anything else you find offensive becomes invisible, a non issue to yourself and has no effect on the board, good or bad. It's so obvious, I don't know why nore people don't see it this way. I think part of the problem is that we take personal ownership in our minds of forums we like and we wish them to reflect what "we" like. Yahoo tailors their home page to the user by providing content based on past clicks on links and searches. And even then, you will find item you don't care for, you just don't click on them, right? Forums aren't such personal web pages, they are a shared open format used by many.
I don't care what people open as a thread at all. If I'm into it, I click, if not, I pass with absolutely no harm to me or anyone else.
It would be better to learn to live in the real world with (especially when it's easy,as in this case) than to try to make a fake one and take all the bits out we don't like.
Start cutting and you'll end up with only two old guys in a room arguing about Campy stuff.

[Seramount]

OT is fine. there's a wealth of knowledge here on a lot of subjects to tap into...

besides, a strict bike-ONLY forum would get stale pretty quickly. best tire, best chain lube, best bar wrap threads only entertain for so long...

I'm unsure about whether including religion and politics is a good idea tho. regardless of the amount and quality of discussion, it's doubtful that anyone ever changes their stance on these topics.

the Politics Only section of RBR basically consists of 5 posters repeating the same tired, totally predictable opinions endlessly...even tho I participate at times, it's a pointless exercise that produces nothing of value. and as petty as it sounds, I stop responding to some posters, regardless of the topic, due to their distasteful (to me) political diatribes.

it's kinda nice to come here and not be subjected to the same vitriolic, toxic bickering. that stuff seems to undermine the sense of 'community' that I find very unique to this place.

just my $0.02...I'll continue to come here regardless of the OT policy.

[makoti]

On the only other forum I frequent, Cyclingnews, they have a 'General' section, where anything about anything can be discussed. Then a 'Bikes' section, etc. I think that's a good idea.

I'd be good with that, but no way do I want to do away with OT. Yeah, some of it gets testy, but people here generally can discuss things without too many flames & different opinions are interesting. Plus, there is so much knowledge about things other than cycling here, to exclude it seems a waste.

[AngryScientist]

i love OT topics here.

what i've found out is we have such a diverse crowd that hangs out here: doctors, monks, car mechanics, engineers, scientists, college students, bankers...

that's a lot of potential to tap when i want to discuss something interesting to me.

the threads on watches, or scotch, wine, bourbon, they're all hugely cool and informative.

how boring would it be if all we did was hash out why sram sucks, or what the aero advantage of dimpled tires are?

[AngryScientist]

wait - why does sram suck again?

[malcolm]

I can understand the hope of keeping a cycling forum related to just that, but I have a tremendous amount of respect for the variety of interests, experience, and points of views here.

We are a passionate group with differing ideas or even ideals. I don't think it is the content that causes us the most issues as it is the level of civility or respect. While I will admit that passionate people often times argue with head and heart, I think the ability to talk about whatever with people we do trust or admire is a good thing.

No place is perfect and sometimes we do cross the line, but we are adults and even though many hide behind their screen and spout off nonsense or argue, I think there is a place for honest arguments.

I have learned a great deal here beyond the cycling world and am grateful for that. I would hate to see that taken away because we cannot play well together. There have been threads started here that have evoked a tremendous amount of passion on my part and i have written many responses calling people out, but a simple delete and moving on was the best choice I could make.

Keep it civil, keep it friendly, and practice the lost art of understanding. So many arguments would be diminished if we first sought to understand before being understood.

(yes I had to read Stephen Covey in college like 10 times)

said very well.

I would not come here as much if were cycling only. I know what I need to know about bikes. I can only read so many discussion on tires.
I come here because of the group of people than contribute to discussions on a number of topics. I've planned trips largely based on this forum and bought more things approved by this forum than you can imagine.
Things are discussed here by a very bright group of people from all walks of life and usually in a civil and thoughtful manner. There are a few pot stirrers but by internet standards even they are benign.

I for one enjoy the off topic stuff way more than the bike only threads and if this place were to go bike only I think activity would drop dramatically.
This is a remarkable group and I enjoy the discussions. I for one say keep them coming.

Most are clearly OT, so if you want bike only don't read the OT. I just don't get the rub, how and why do they bother you. It's much ado about nothing.

[Tony T]

I am just as guilty as some. I have even started threads titled OT poking fun at the OT topics and implying "on topic". I am new here and found this oasis of the internet cesspool a breath of fresh air. The reality is we all love bikes. Politics, religion and personal beliefs bring out the worst in people. I would like to propose that people take a pledge to keep this a cycling forum and keep it civil and promote the hobby or sport we love. Dont let this turn into an internet cesspool. The originals that started Paceline deserve this, I aim to be a good cycling steward and help keep it that way.
Anyone else?

Well, that's up to the Moderators if they want this forum to be Cycling Only.
They do a good job of locking threads when things get out of hand. Could delete those threads, but then they would get posts asking what happened (and the threads roll to the back in a day or so anyway)

I do have a suggestion, but the forum software may not be able to handle it:
Can there be a user setting that any thread subject that starts with "OT:" is hidden?

[texbike]

+1

I've been here for awhile and for me, the real strength of the forum is that we're a community. We came here because of bikes but we stay for more diverse reasons. The range of knowledge shared by members is extraordinary, from financial to technological, how-to to where-to, pets, cars, vacations, home repairs and dealing with personal, family challenges. Yes, political/current events threads can test our civility and patience, but IMO they are a small price to pay for the far greater, far deeper, far more useful sharing of knowledge we do.

On a ride with a friend, how many topics get discussed? That's us. A long, winding ride with friends...and others.:beer::D;):banana:

i love OT topics here.

what i've found out is we have such a diverse crowd that hangs out here: doctors, monks, car mechanics, engineers, scientists, college students, bankers...

that's a lot of potential to tap when i want to discuss something interesting to me.

the threads on watches, or scotch, wine, bourbon, they're all hugely cool and informative.

how boring would it be if all we did was hash out why sram sucks, or what the aero advantage of dimpled tires are?

These two posts sum it up for me. I joined here over 10 years ago for the bike discussion, but have stuck around due to the people and the different, and (mostly) civil discourse on a broad range of subjects. I love this place! It's one of only four forums that I frequent and essentially, the only one bike related.

As for political and religious discussions, I think that the Ferrari Chat forum has an interesting approach. They have a multitude of different off-topic subforums, but any topics that have primarily political or religious content gets moved to a P&R bucket. Individual posts that are P&R leaning in a non-P&R content thread are deleted by the mods. Seems to work to keep things civil for the most part (except in the P&R subforum!).

Texbike

[d_douglas]

+1

I've been here for awhile and for me, the real strength of the forum is that we're a community. We came here because of bikes but we stay for more diverse reasons. The range of knowledge shared by members is extraordinary, from financial to technological, how-to to where-to, pets, cars, vacations, home repairs and dealing with personal, family challenges. Yes, political/current events threads can test our civility and patience, but IMO they are a small price to pay for the far greater, far deeper, far more useful sharing of knowledge we do.

On a ride with a friend, how many topics get discussed? That's us. A long, winding ride with friends...and others.:beer::D;):banana:



Perfectly said. As a Canadian, I have strong views about gun control, but I did not weigh in on the ' mass shooting in the US ' threads' that pop up all too often.

However, I think this kind of discourse (for better or for worse ) is valuable to us as people. I don't weigh in because I don't think my views would contribute positively to the discussion.

[Climb01742]

I'd like to add another point:

93legendti and I hold political views that could not be more divergent, yet over the years I've come to know him as a truly good dude. Our life experiences are quite different I think, yet by his posts I've come to believe that beyond our differences there is a lot of shared humanity.

1centaur and I hold economic views that could not be more divergent, yet over the years, through his posts and PMs exchanged, I've come to know him as a truly good dude. He's shared much information with me and is always very willing to answer questions I have. We live in the same neck of the woods and we both say how much we'd like to ride together some time. I'd bet anything it would be great, as would riding with 93legendti.

Because of this forum, and the OT topics, I'm often reminded that even extreme differences are far outweighed by what we share. Isn't that a valuable thing today?

[fuzzalow]

As for political and religious discussions, I think that the Ferrari Chat forum has an interesting approach. They have a multitude of different off-topic subforums, but any topics that have primarily political or religious content gets moved to a P&R bucket. Individual posts that are P&R leaning in a non-P&R content thread are deleted by the mods. Seems to work to keep things civil for the most part (except in the P&R subforum!).

I disagree with this approach for the simple reasons that:

It is not ideal to place additional burden on the Mods to monitor, police and segregate posts into different streams of consciousness and acceptability, and more importantly
The burden on maintaining civility in the forum must always remain on the membership itself. Let each person be accountable for their own actions, postings and behaviour on this forum. It doesn't take long to discover where and how people stand on any number of things discussed on this forum.
Always consider the source in the form of who it was that posted into a thread. And in fairness, there is a lid for every kettle.

[OtayBW]

...I would not come here as much if were cycling only. I know what I need to know about bikes. I can only read so many discussion on tires....

...I for one enjoy the off topic stuff way more than the bike only threads and if this place were to go bike only I think activity would drop dramatically.
This is a remarkable group and I enjoy the discussions. I for one say keep them coming.First, let me agree in the sentiment of keeping OT coming, and I also agree that it would be wise to ignore the pot stirrers (and as mentioned above as well: same story/individuals, different year). Beyond that, after ~30 years of riding, I remain FAR from knowing what I need to know about bikes, and it is still bikes is why I is here. The OT threads that don't go haywire are definitely interesting and serve as a pleasant social lubricant among the "fraternity that others don't understand" (to quote a recent post), but it's the bike that glues us together....IMO...

[JAllen]

Tihsepa,

I'm picking up what you're putting down. I'm obsessive about bikes, however, I'm not very knowledgeable about them. Part of that is that I'm not very handy (in spite of my enjoyment of tinkering). I didn't grow up liking bikes or have a culture of them. So this is all pretty new to me.

As far as the OT stuff goes, those are some of my opportunities to speak to something or to learn about life things. I'm a frequent poster of OTs. Like others have said, there is just so many different backgrounds and experiences that all harbor a great deal of wisdom.

[bcroslin]

I've mentioned this in PM's to the mods in the past but I would be happy if they'd use the <sink> function on the forum more often. That way political threads would move off the front page and run their course faster. I can understand people wanting to vent when something truly tragic like a mass shooting happens but after 3 or 4 pages the political stuff starts creeping in and then things get nasty. I honestly don't care about anyone's politics here on the PL. All that matters to me is that they love bikes as much as I do.

[malcolm]

First, let me agree in the sentiment of keeping OT coming, and I also agree that it would be wise to ignore the pot stirrers (and as mentioned above as well: same story/individuals, different year). Beyond that, after ~30 years of riding, I remain FAR from knowing what I need to know about bikes, and it is still bikes is why I is here. The OT threads that don't go haywire are definitely interesting and serve as a pleasant social lubricant among the "fraternity that others don't understand" (to quote a recent post), but it's the bike that glues us together....IMO...

I wasn't clear. I know all I care to know about bikes which is very little compared to many of the folks here.

Left to just bike threads I would have little to contribute and would only post a couple times a year when I had to ask a question, if then cause, I could just search and likely find the answer.

I enjoy this community and like to participate when I can but I have little to add on most bike topics and probably on most others but it's not quite as obvious I hope.

While I'm at it let me thank those like OP, 11.4 and the many others here that do have the bike knowledge and also perspective on other things as well.

[victoryfactory]

The way OT threads are handled here is just right!
Segregating them is wrong. Banning them is wrong.
We are whole people who have interests, expertise and
other things to contribute besides bike stuff. A good OT thread
adds a lot. A bad one is easily ignored. The OT stuff is what makes
this a community. If you just want soulless sanitized expert bike info you can
Google it

VF

[Dead Man]

I like the mixed topics.. I've been thinking about soliciting advice here on a business related topic, since we have such a broad compliment of smart people that know a ton of smart stuff

But divisive topics... political, religious... I badly wish they'd get the round-file. If nothing else, they should go in a Romper Room sub-forum and not show up in the New Posts feed.

Just my opinion, which is worth exactly what you paid for it

[shovelhd]

I do enjoy learning how some people think around here. As long as personal attacks are not allowed, I'm fine with OT discussions right where they are.

[bshell]

leave it be.

[11.4]

Forums like this are dynamic entities whose content -- personality, if you will -- is driven by the assemblage of members. As much as something may work on another forum, it doesn't necessarily work here. And as much as we may each have individual preferences about what is allowed or not, it comes down to what the entire community creates as a forum. We don't vote here. We contribute. And the mix of contributions is what makes it sometimes good, sometimes great, occasionally bad. If separate subforums or bans on OT threads had not been attempted before, I would have said we should at least try it. But the evidence, based on experience in this forum itself, is that these don't work. Not because someone doesn't like them but because the community doesn't like it, stops attending, and the quality of communication declines. That's ample evidence to me that those ideas don't work for this forum. The forum as it works now does work pretty well, all things considered. There isn't reason to change when the proposed change hasn't worked. And anyway, I want to rant at times and you all had better damned well agree with me when I do.

[OtayBW]

And anyway, I want to rant at times and you all had better damned well agree with me when I do.
But I thought we were supposed to just ignore the troublemakers....:p

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk

[Fivethumbs]

Can there be a McRib only section?

[kramnnim]

Can there be a McRib only section?

Would it only appear for a few months out of the year?

[akelman]

I'm considering putting up an OT post about the OT posts about OT posts, but I'm worried that the internet will collapse in upon itself if I do. What do you all think?

[Doug Fattic]

I find the OT subjects some of the most interesting and enjoyable especially the ones that touch on political or religious views. For the most part posters do a reasonable job of expressing their thoughts without insulting others. Of course some get out of line and others should be working at their real job instead of posting so often. But the diversity of expressed opinions allows me to understand the actual world I live in better and figure out how deal with people that have different philosophies than my own. There are a lot of really intelligent Paceline members and I am enriched by their broad knowledge. Some of the members of the church I attend weekly have completely different political views than myself. We debate our different points of view on a semi regular basis (except not in church where those kind of topics are considered inappropriate) and stuff I read here helps refine and sharpen my arguments. The dialogue here on touchy subjects while not perfect is way superior to some other forums devoted to a specific hobby that also allow off topic posts.

Interestingly over 90% of my framebuilding class students lean left politically or if they are under 30 aren't interested in politics enough to vote. So they are by no means a cross section of American views.

[dgauthier]

(. . .) One of the great things about this forum is the diversity of real world experience in many areas combined with our shared love of cycling/bicycles. It has worked very well and still does.(. . .)

Amen. There are a lot of wise, well-educated, well-rounded people here. They know about a lot of things besides bikes, and their minds are all that much sharper from all the cycling! (Note the cycling-related content there . . . )

[mg2ride]

....I would like to propose that people take a pledge to keep this a cycling forum and keep it civil and promote the hobby or sport we love. Dont let this turn into an internet cesspool....

No

[oldpotatoe]

No

:rolleyes::D

[makoti]

wait - why does sram suck again?

Cuz. It's a fact. Look it up.

[makoti]

I'm considering putting up an OT post about the OT posts about OT posts, but I'm worried that the internet will collapse in upon itself if I do. What do you all think?

I forget. Does OT stand for ON topic, or OFF topic? ;)

[Elefantino]

Looks like the vox cicli is leaning toward keeping things as they are, which is a good thing. This place runs itself pretty well and the mods tread lightly but firmly when they need to.

[AngryScientist]

This place runs itself pretty well and the mods tread lightly but firmly when they need to.

thanks, and i'm firmly closing this one. So - No we're not going to end OT posts. thanks everyone for chiming in with their opinions.

Nick