GPS questions, phone vs garmin, etc.

[bicycletricycle]

I brought my iphone on a short tour recently, I got a sinewave doohickey so that I could charge it directly from my dynamo hub and made a mount for it on my stem. It was nice to have the map functions and I found myself taking more side roads then I had in the past with just a paper map. Overall I enjoyed the experience.

I don't have any experience with GPS logging of routes or performance tracking stuff (strava) but it looks like some of the garmin units also have map functions.

It got me curious about these new fangled GPS gadgets.

Got a few questions.

1. Why buy a garmin when your phone has the same stuff in it? I presume you can download an app that can do the data logging for strava or whatever.

2. What is the best GPS unit for map functions, are the maps searchable for addresses or anything?

Thanks

[roydyates]

I brought my iphone on a short tour recently, I got a sinewave doohickey so that I could charge it directly from my dynamo hub and made a mount for it on my stem. It was nice to have the map functions and I found myself taking more side roads then I had in the past with just a paper map. Overall I enjoyed the experience.

I don't have any experience with GPS logging of routes or performance tracking stuff (strava) but it looks like some of the garmin units also have map functions.

It got me curious about these new fangled GPS gadgets.

Got a few questions.

1. Why buy a garmin when your phone has the same stuff in it? I presume you can download an app that can do the data logging for strava or whatever.

2. What is the best GPS unit for map functions, are the maps searchable for addresses or anything?

Thanks
1 The garmin has a full map built-in so you don't need a cellular connection to see the map. That can matter in rural areas. If you don't have a generator, the phone battery doesn't last long enough for an all day ride. A garmin will last ~10 hours. Also, a garmin has a barometric altimeter so you can reasonably good climb stats while you ride.

2 The garmin maps are searchable but the interface (at least on the older models I've used) is lame compared to google maps.

[carlineng]

The Garmin Edge 1000 or 810 are the best for mapping.

Garmins tend to have more reliable GPS chips and barometric altimeters, so the data they collect will be more accurate than an iPhone or Android smartphone, but unless you're a stickler for data accuracy, it won't make a huge difference.

Another advantage is having a more streamlined head unit. Some people think that putting a smartphone on your stem looks dorky, whereas you can mount a Garmin fairly discreetly.

For your usecase (exploring side roads in unknown places), I think the iPhone is better suited for the task.

[kramnnim]

You could use a smartphone in airplane mode to do the map stuff if you have offline maps. Not sure how hard that is to do with Android/iPhone but they came preloaded on my Windows Phone.

The Garmin screens are touchscreens, but are quite horrible compared to a smartphone. You can search for locations, etc, but it's a pita.

[bicycletricycle]

so do people using a garmin for its map features pre load a route or something? is that possible with the software that comes with them?

[bikingshearer]

I would always go for a dedicated GPS device over a cell phone simply because the phone is dependent on access to cell towers, while the GPS is dependent on access to satellites. In the boonies, satellites trump cell towers.

There are work-arounds for the battery issue to make a cell phone as dependable as a GPS device for most rides, but there is no work-around for no cell towers within range.

Disclaimer: I am decidedly low-tech (I still use my Garmin 305 and am happy to do so; it was a gift or else I'd be using something even lower-tech, like an Avocet 40), so take my thoughts with however many grains of salt you think appropriate.

[AngryScientist]

so do people using a garmin for its map features pre load a route or something? is that possible with the software that comes with them?

yea, i do this all the time. make a route in mapmyride, ridewithgps, etc and load it right onto the garmin for turn by turn directions and realtime map.

[benb]

I have an older mapping garmin and I do pre-compute my routes in the computer when I use it.

In my experience google, apple, etc.. do not calculate intelligent routes for cycling and they also don't necessarily deal well with routes that start and end in the same place. Google maps will let you cache maps on the phone on android but the tools to hand build a route seem weak.

Garmin, etc.. also have some big value add for some of their map types.. their new routable 24k topo + road map looks incredibly nice for serious adventures. I don't have those but would really like to get them.. just holding out till I buy a new device. Basically the map has roads, trails, and contour lines and the device can navigate you both on and off road depending on what you tell the GPS you're doing.

I've seen huge inaccuracies with the iphone with respect to tracking accuracy, but then other days it's fine. Worst case my wife and I went for a walk + run and the iphone was so far off the result was impossible unless we'd run the whole way, it didn't even pass a basic sanity check. My garmin was dead on that day.

Basically Smartphone = great in the car, dedicated GPS can often be better for just about anything else.

Garmin's User Interfaces for custom building routes are not terribly amazing either but they do work.

[guido]

I use a Garmin Edge 1000. I really like it for recording ad hoc riding or for following downloaded routes created either with the garmin connect software (quite lame) or preferably ridewithgps. Using the ridewithgps site takes very little time to sketch out and download new routes. I have used it for planning everything from local explorations to long complex Brevet routes. The garmin unit is not great for getting your self oriented on a wing it ride that goes astray. For that google maps is still the best choice...

[CunegoFan]

I would always go for a dedicated GPS device over a cell phone simply because the phone is dependent on access to cell towers, while the GPS is dependent on access to satellites. In the boonies, satellites trump cell towers.

There are work-arounds for the battery issue to make a cell phone as dependable as a GPS device for most rides, but there is no work-around for no cell towers within range.


As I understand it, that is not how the location service for iOS works. It uses GPS and that is supplemented by cell towers and known wireless hotspots, both of which can also be used to assist in getting an initial position.

Battery life does suck though for phones, especially with the display turned on.

[benb]

Yes the phones don't depend on cell signal to get a location fix but they're slower & less accurate without it.

And for just about everything else they do depend on the cell/network connection. It's pretty recent they can even calculate a route on their own without sending it to the cloud.

[kramnnim]

so do people using a garmin for its map features pre load a route or something? is that possible with the software that comes with them?

I load preplanned routes onto my Garmin all the time. Ridewithgps.com is a great site to plan the routes, you can then create a file to send to the Garmin device.

[dawgie]

I can't speak for Garmin computers, but the iPhone cycling apps that I've used (Cyclemeter, Mapmyride, Strava) are terribly inaccurate for recording elevation gains. I have used my iPhone to track numerous commutes in which I am essentially riding the same route every day and get widely varying results for elevation gains. Riding the same route, about 15-16 miles each way, I've gotten elevation gains that vary by several hundred feet.

[ptourkin]

The new mobile version of Google Maps is rolling out with offline maps. You can choose an area to download and it will work with your phone's GPS without service.

I do endurance events with a Sinewave also. My main GPS is now an SRM PC8 which doesn't have mapping. Now, I can use mapping on my phone in remote areas without service. I run the Sinewave into a storage battery and charge devices with that to prevent low speed outages with a dyno. It's a good system if you don't need your maps always on.

[jamesau]

A number of smartphone apps allow you to download maps and work without data when on the road. Copilot GPS, for instance, allows you to download maps and then works without data service (on my iPhone). It's pretty awesome.

Copilot is free (iOs); a useful add-on (a couple of $) enables voice-guidance which works great with a bluetooth headset. I use this on my motorcycle and am quite happy with it.

I don't have a dedicated GPS but the only advantages I can see there being are waterproof options, maybe ruggedness, and battery life. There are workarounds for these issues when considering the phone option.

[fkelly]

I use a Garmin 800 unit for recording rides, primarily.

You can create a route on ridewithgps and download it as a course to the Garmin. It will work, assuming the route is accurate and you don't go off course. Reading the map on the Garmin display is hard. Zoom in and out doesn't work very well and often you can't see secondary routes.

Ridewithgps also has apps for both IOS and Android. Since I am primarily interested in recording rides I don't use the apps often. But you can record rides on Android or IOS and they get uploaded right to your ride log. For club rides we usually print a cue sheet ahead of time and hand it out. I have a velcro based paper clip thingy for attaching a folded paper to my handlebar. Works fine.

When I am riding somewhere unfamiliar and get confused about the route I will use Google Maps on the phone. The display is bigger and brighter than the Garmin one. But you can't read the display in bright daylight. I usually have to dismount and look for a shaded place to read the screen.

I think that if some company produced a suitably sized smartphone that was easily readable in bright daylight and had good (all day) battery life it would be game over.

[sitzmark]

so do people using a garmin for its map features pre load a route or something? is that possible with the software that comes with them?

Just about anywhere you want to ride, someone has probably ridden in the area before. The route creation sites mentioned also have routes uploaded or created by others that you can search based on whatever filters are important to you. If you find something interesting, you can download it to your "Garmin" and go out and ride it. Makes finding a route in unfamiliar areas very quick and easy. Or, you can edit a route of interest to add/subtract/alter a route as you see fit. Saves starting from scratch.

[benb]

The "unable to read display in sunlight" is a huge weakness of smartphones that is so easy to forget. Thankfully they have great voice prompts but that only solves some problems.

[Alan]

I use a Garmin 800 and have had good luck with downloading routes from ridewithgps and following them on the 800 using the free openstreet maps.
There are some weaknesses with the GPS computers such as the 800 when it comes to turn by turn directions and routing. You can read about them at dcrainmakers site.

You may want to try the paid version of ridewithgps on a smartphone. My son uses this and it works well as he downloads the route first and then listens to the audio directions during the ride and the display is off. This should not cause cell phone overheating and shutdown but you should try it. Using the paid version of ridewithgps as a trial seems like a good place to start if you don't want to buy a Garmin or similar GPS unit with maps. For $6 a month you get turn by turn navigation and off line maps and a battery that can last a long time if you turn off the display.

Good luck,

Alan

[bicycletricycle]

i really like the ability to improvise a route on the way. I think I would have no appetite for preplanning a route and loading it in before. I like to ramble along, not interested in recording data or attempting better times on a prescribed route, don't care about altitude gained. I like the better battery life and ability to work without cell signal. Maybe one of the more hiker specific units with a better touch screen would be a good option. Not sure if they have the better battery life, the better battery life probably comes directly from the smaller screen.

thanks for all the info folks.

i like this place.

[guido]

Maybe one of the more hiker specific units with a better touch screen would be a good option. Not sure if they have the better battery life, the better battery life probably comes directly from the smaller screen.

Several of the rando folks like the Garmin eTrex models. They take standard AA batteries and folks recount doing a 1200k brevet on one change of batteries...

[sg8357]

On the cell phone you can load OSM+ a stand alone mapping system,
you do have to load state by state maps, works pretty well.

I also have a Garmin Touring, it has decent wander about features,
good compass. Carry real maps and the Garmin will tell you what road your
on, nice in rural areas where removing signage is a sport.
It has a return to starting point feature, I got caught in the
rain, switched the unit from following a route to "take me home now",
worked like a champ. Garmins are rain proof, touch screen works
in the rain. It also works neatly for night navigation, screen comes
on x meters from the turn, stays on after the turn, then goes off.

[11.4]

If it wasn't clear, you can get a GPS fix of sorts direct from satellites with a good modern smartphone, but most smartphones (including iPhones) rely on triangulation between cell towers to get an accurate fix. If you only have two towers available, you can watch the phone flip back and forth between two locations.

If you don't have cell service, you can still get the GPS fix but you may get a throbbing blue dot on your screen but no map to go with it. The maps come courtesy of your cellular connection. You can download maps for your area so you don't have that issue any longer but the inaccuracy tends to remain.

That being said, if you're riding within cell reception (and I suspect that's all that most of us are doing), a smartphone can have some very effective location applications for training routes and so on. Plus, of course, if you get a 520 (and I believe some of the other Garmin Edge models) you can connect your data to your smartphone map and store your data or share it that way as well. Now I'm not out to do a hard workout around the lake so I can share it with others or check out how others are doing -- Strava is good as a personal tool but I'm not posting Strava rides on Facebook every day. But don't dismiss the usefulness of your smartphone, especially if you want to develop a lot of data. I don't install it on my handlebars -- that's a little to dorky for me. But it's in my rear pocket and I can see between intervals how I did and what I want to be doing next.

If you happen to want a really good GPS and you want bulletproof location, distance, and speed capabilities but don't need pure cycling functionality, don't overlook the Garmin Oregon series. These are where Garmin really shines. The screens are much better than on the cycling products, the software is quite refined, and the accuracy is phenomenal. Plus the maps -- whether street or terrain and offroad -- are so useful you suddenly realize what you were missing with the Edge products. I live with Garmin Oregons in my work, and I'll take one any day when I'm taking a cross bike off onto trails or gravel, or when I'm really heading into the boondocks. They are great devices.

Edit: Guido beat me to this with the eTrex models, which are slightly more versatile but nowhere near as friendly as the Oregons. These units can take standard lithium AA batteries which last all day plus, and you can always have an extra set of batteries to play safe.

[kramnnim]

The GPS on my old Android works fine in Airplane mode without cell towers. Same on my Windows Phones, the newer of which came with maps preinstalled.

[benb]

Just to add a couple more things..

I have an eTrex, that is indeed what I use for mapping when I need mapping. Mine is 6 years old, the new ones are a teeny bit thinner but they're still thicker than edge models. (Edge 8xx/1xxx ones still look huge on the bars to me like the eTrex though.)

The eTrex ones are really fantastic on batteries, etc.. mine will do 30 hours or more on 2xAA. I think they're probably the right thing for touring, etc..

New eTrex models will record HR and some can even use Ant+ I think.

Any of the garmins still allow you to improvise when you're on a pre-planned route... they simply recalculate when you go off route. You go offroute as much as you want and within some reason it will just calculate a way to get you back on route, it seems to skip part of the route when that makes sense based on your deviation too.

I have a Fenix 3 watch, if I don't need navigation, etc.. I use that for Strava, Garmin Connect, etc.. It's a lot smaller than the eTrex or the big edge models and basically does the same stuff as the smaller edge models. You can jump through a pile of hoops to do on-road navigation with the F3 without maps but I haven't bothered, it's a lot of computer crap. Hopefully garmin eventually gets that right with Garmin Connect Routes.