Disc/Rim brake opinions wanted.

[Jcgill]

Hey everyone, planning a Moots build in the near future.

***This is not to start a rim/disc debate***

I was planning on building a rim brake Vamoots CR. But with the UCI allowing disc in 2016 i know that rim brakes are on their way out potentially.

Just wondering if i am crazy for wanting to build a rim bike at this point in time.

I live in the flat lands abd do not ride in the rain, so disc offers no advantage, but i would hate to have a 3500 frame and be unable to upgrade components as i desire, or have to piece meal a group together.
I would like this bike to serve me for the next 5+ years.

Any opinions?!

Thanks,
Jon

[gone]

Even if you're 15 years old and live to normal life expectancy, use the Moots as your only bike you will still be able to get brake pads, parts, rims, wheels, etc., for your rim brake equipped bike for your last 6 months of riding.

It's going to be a looooong time, if ever, before rim brakes disappear.

[weaponsgrade]

While I certainly think we'll be seeing lots of more road disc in the future, I think rim brakes will be around for a long time. I don't think you'll have a problem in the next 5+ years getting nice rim brakes and rim brake rims. If anything, I might ask that the head tube be compatible with something like an Enve disc fork. If you really wanted disc in the future, I'm sure you could find someone to add disc brake tabs to the Moots.

[Jcgill]

My main concern was levers/shifters.
I have not really heard of a rim caliper wearing out; and even if it did EE Brakes make aftermarket calipers.

I am more thinking if everything goes hydro for brakes, finding high tier shift/brake levers that have a cable for brakes and a cable for shifting may be tough.

[Schmed]

A few thoughts:

- if you WANT rim brakes, it seems to me, that a Moots is a dream bike, and you should build what you want, and who cares what the UCI approves.

- I think resale value on a non-disc bike might be a little lower. Moots will add disc tabs afterwards. but.. if I'm buying a used Moots, and I wanted disc, I don't want rim brake mounts on the seat stays after I pay them to add tabs.

- But... don't buy a bike based on future resale, unless you plan on flipping it

- I doubt that anyone that rides a disc bike for any length of time would decide they do NOT like discs. I'm sure they are out there, but shoot.... discs are quite nice. Maybe go ride a disc bike and see if you are in group A or B.

Build what you want, and make sure to post pics here, as many of us need a regular Moots fix! :D

[R3awak3n]

as nice as disc brakes are I am not sure they will replace rim brakes all together. I say if you want a bake with rim brakes now, buy it, don't be thinking about the future.

If you get into disc brake thinking then you end up buying a disc road bike with quick release when the future apparently is thru axels and you will end up not buying anything for a long long time.

[tigoat]

If you care too much about the future then get a bike with disc brakes and be done with it, as once it is raced successfully in pro peloton it will become mainstream and there is no turning back. Let's see if we can find a modern MTB with rim brakes, it would have to be custom made. With that said, even with road disc brakes becoming common, it will probably be a long time before road rim brakes disappear if it would fade away like its MTB cousin did. However, I would get what you heart tells you now and don't pay attention to the future too much, as you may always buy another bike with whatever brakes in the future. Life would be too stressful to worry about the future too much for fun stuff, something that money can always buy again and again.

[11.4]

Let's just say you've decided on discs. If you ever use R785 hydraulics, you'll never want to go to anything else. It's just a better system all around.

But choosing discs isn't your only question. Currently post mounts prevail, but the market seems to be headed towards flat mount, a standard devised by Shimano. But even Shimano doesn't have a full range of calipers for them yet, and I don't think Enve has released a flat mount fork yet. You can always mix mounts if you have to and change the fork later, but it's a waste of money.

Second, you have to decide which rotor diameter to use. UCI says 160 mm, most bike manufacturers say they prefer 140. You can change, but again, it's a cost.

Third, I got a Moots not long ago and asked them to modify it for through axles and they said they weren't modifying frames they had built. "Sell it and buy a new Moots" was what they told me. Just forewarned.

Fourth, if you go hydraulics I'd really recommend going Di2 at the same time. At that point, however, it looks a lot cleaner to run the top tube brake hydraulic internally. However, Moots won't do it. They still think people should shoulder bikes, in which case a top-of-the-top-tube external cable routing isn't an issue, but I think with lighter bikes the trend is towards rapid dismounts and holding the top tube with your hand as you do so. For that, a cleaner top tube is better. Moots is very conservative (read, slow) about adopting new features.

Fifth, most of the hubs out there are 6-bolt ISO but the best rotors are centerlock (i.e., Shimano). The market seems to be going to centerlock, but you are limited on hubs. Chris King is supposed to be coning out with centerlock hubs this next year, but those estimates are always pretty optimistic. So be sure you have the hubs to use the rotors that you want for your disc calipers on your new cross bike.

In short, there's a lot in flux on a "contemporary" Moots. And more things to come. Anything you buy will have a five-year lifetime, easily. But if you are so concerned about your bike being up-to-spec technologically, it's going to age rapidly in that context. And Moots is not the fastest builder to embrace the newest standards. You might think about your plans and whether they make sense in today's rapidly moving disc technology environment.

[r_mutt]

Fifth, most of the hubs out there are 6-bolt ISO but the best rotors are centerlock (i.e., Shimano). The market seems to be going to centerlock, but you are limited on hubs. Chris King is supposed to be coning out with centerlock hubs this next year, but those estimates are always pretty optimistic. So be sure you have the hubs to use the rotors that you want for your disc calipers on your new cross bike.



great post 11.4. fwiw, White Industries and DT Swiss make center lock hubsets.

[Jcgill]

Thanks for the advise everyone!

I really do not want disc brakes, the hassle of bleeding, pad contamination, rotor alignment, squealing, etc. (my Mtb is enough to deal with lol)

But i just wanted to make sure a rim specific frame will not be an unrideable paperweight in a few years time after such a steep investment. I have no problem riding a bike that is not the latest and greatest, just want parts available for it!

[unterhausen]

I'm not worried about it myself. I would worry most about rims. I suppose the low end isn't going away, and someone will keep their machining setup running, so probably the choices will go down, but it will work out.

[tuscanyswe]

Thanks for the advise everyone!

I really do not want disc brakes, the hassle of bleeding, pad contamination, rotor alignment, squealing, etc. (my Mtb is enough to deal with lol)

But i just wanted to make sure a rim specific frame will not be an unrideable paperweight in a few years time after such a steep investment. I have no problem riding a bike that is not the latest and greatest, just want parts available for it!

Smart choice. I don't think you will have trouble finding parts for a very very long time.

[oldpotatoe]

Hey everyone, planning a Moots build in the near future.

***This is not to start a rim/disc debate***

I was planning on building a rim brake Vamoots CR. But with the UCI allowing disc in 2016 i know that rim brakes are on their way out potentially.

Just wondering if i am crazy for wanting to build a rim bike at this point in time.

I live in the flat lands abd do not ride in the rain, so disc offers no advantage, but i would hate to have a 3500 frame and be unable to upgrade components as i desire, or have to piece meal a group together.
I would like this bike to serve me for the next 5+ years.

Any opinions?!

Thanks,
Jon

First, road brake calipers don't wear out. Second, this announcement isn't going to be like the 'abandon 26inch wheel MTBS', NOW' like the big boys did. Mechanical and electronic stuff for rim brakes is going to be around for a long time.

If the time comes, then send the frame to moots for disc brake tabs..along with a refinish.

11.4 makes some great points. Even the in the very mature MTB disc arena, design is far from settled. More so in cross, don't expect road to be any different.

OBTW-I have a Merckx with Delta brakes that were made 25 years ago. It was a pretty small run of product. I can still find calipers, small parts, brake blocks and holders. I wouldn't worry that in 5 years you can't find rim brake shifters and brake parts.

[wolfstone636]

Rim Brakes will still have the greatest compatibility for the foreseeable future

[zank]

I think we are at least 2-3 group generations away from the big players going with hydro-only for their levers. Consider that Shimano doesn't even have Dura-Ace/Ultegra branded hydro levers yet (I hear that Dura Ace is coming at Sea Otter) and Campagnolo doesn't have anything for retail consumption yet. We are probably half way through the 9000 product cycle, so my guess is we are at least 10 years away from worrying about cable brake levers going away.

[AngryScientist]

if you're a flatlander who does not ride in the rain, and this is a road bike, there is zero reason to go disc.

i can understand the anxiety about component availability for a bike you consider a "lifetime" frame, but in reality - i think it is nothing to worry about at this juncture. go mechanical rim brake and you'll have replacement component availability for long into the future.

also, consider if you get a top tier group, campy record or dura ace, depending on your miles/year should last well upwards of 5 years. Probably many more since you mentioned that you ride the flat lands and not in the rain, presumably meaning you shift less than someone riding rolling terrain frequently.

dont feel "forced" into discs because you think that's where the industry is going. not worth it.

just my 2c

[velotel]

Here's my two cents worth based on my recent experiences riding two Moots, one with Record drivetrain and brakes, the second (the Routt, their gravel bike) with Shimano drivetrain and disc brakes. I rode both bikes pretty much in similar conditions which meant lots of dirt, lots of climbing, lots of descending. The braking on both bikes was excellent. The Record brakes did what they're supposed to do, slow and stop the bike when needed. So did the disc brakes. Finger effort on both bikes was as far as I could tell the same, one finger action on both. I never felt any lack of braking with the Campy calipers nor with the disc brakes. What I did feel was superior modulation with the calipers. Locking up the back wheel on dirt with the disc brake at times seemed too happen too easily.

Okay, two days on the caliper brakes and three days on the disc brakes isn't exactly a huge amount of exposure. Nevertheless in the end I simply saw no need whatsoever for the disc brakes, I saw no compelling reason to choose disc over caliper. The discs are heavier, more maintenance, way more expensive. They're also the mode currently with lots of people pushing them for whatever reasons. Me, I just don't see them. They work great, no question on that, they even look good on a bike. The only advantage I can see for discs is the ability to run fat tires, which is also determined by the frame. If you're planning on building a pure road bike, the fat tire aspect is simply not going to be in the game. There is simply no need for discs on that bike.

If you were going with a gravel bike, they become slightly more interesting because of the more limited selection in caliper brakes that can accommodate fat tires. I've been bouncing that around in my head because I'm planning on getting a new frame for fat tires. And so far my decision is clearly in favor of running the Velo Orange Grand Cru. No matter how I look at the question and answers, I cannot come up with a compelling reason for running discs.

And just as an aside, I live and ride in the Alps with over 95% of my rides involving climbs and descents, usually long climbs and long descents. I also love descending fast, like way fast. I have never felt any lack whatsoever in my brakes. Never, not in the rain, not in the heat, not on dirt roads, not even in the cold with snow and ice along the way. My Record calipers have done all I've needed with zero problems and outside of changing pads now and then nothing to do.

[unterhausen]

dont feel "forced" into discs because you think that's where the industry is going. not worth it.

predictions are hard, especially about the future. Back in the late '70s, I built a touring frame. I sized it for 27" tires. Of course, as we know, just about all tires are now 700c. This wasn't quite the same as disc/rim, but the marketers are constantly changing things or threatening to change things. If we listened to them, we would never be able to buy anything. Yeah, you might make some choices that will end up driving you to boutique parts in the future, but that's not so bad.

[sparky33]

Your own ideal should always trump future-proofing because the bike you want will always make you happier than the supposedly sensible trending bike.

[pdmtong]

comparing rate of road disc adoption to the rate of mtb disc adoption is wrong.

discs will always be preferred to rim for dirt due to the grade, traction and line change challenges

what saves rm from demise on the road is weight. as long as there is a weight tradeoff combined with the lack of need in many cases, road rim will sustain.

so get what you want on your moots and dont look back. I have a CR and love it.

[harryblack]

As others suggest, not in your lifetime or your progeny's lifetime will you not be able to get superior quality rim brakes, pads, wheels, etc.

Though there are few, if any such persons here, the fatuous proponents of disc brakes on the road tend not to say anything about the jillion and one wheels on the road, in the garage etc that are then "obsolete." That's a tremendous use of resources.

Finally, while aesthetic tastes obviously differ, those disc brake cables running down the fork look lousy, like some old Cateye or whatever cable beefed up on testosterone, HGH etc (ask George, Levi, "Tommy D" for details).

Enjoy YOUR bike, forget 'the industry' and the forced obsolesence nonsense of (not-even-high-priced) bike media flacks.

[Mikej]

Will Moots make a disc cr? I am under the impression you have to go road disc or Vamoots RD? I've been wrong before though. But on that note, maybe a disc wide tire road bike could expand your horizons - flat roads areas usually mean lots of gravel also? I would personally go disc DI2 and center-lock just because My Ericksen is rim:beer:- also to run disc you need a 44mm ht I believe, I'd go full modern. Have fun spending!

[oldpotatoe]

Will Moots make a disc cr? I am under the impression you have to go road disc or Vamoots RD? I've been wrong before though. But on that note, maybe a disc wide tire road bike could expand your horizons - flat roads areas usually mean lots of gravel also? I would personally go disc DI2 and center-lock just because My Ericksen is rim:beer:- also to run disc you need a 44mm ht I believe, I'd go full modern. Have fun spending!

Probably. Or just a mix of Routt and CR.

Don't 'need' 44m headtube for disc but it probably helps..at least on the front.

[Mikej]

Probably. Or just a mix of Routt and CR.

Don't 'need' 44m headtube for disc but it probably helps..at least on the front.

Yeah, you could go steel, but I looked and found the majority if not all carbon forks were tapered if you wanted disc mounts. I for the life of me don't understand it, my Eriksen with a 1 1/8 enve and a Moots 120 stem is almost too stiff.

I just quick looked and it appears you have to get a wishbone stay for disc on a Moots road,there buy making a cr invalid.

[cmsanfor]

Yeah, you could go steel, but I looked and found the majority if not all carbon forks were tapered if you wanted disc mounts. I for the life of me don't understand it, my Eriksen with a 1 1/8 enve and a Moots 120 stem is almost too stiff.

I just quick looked and it appears you have to get a wishbone stay for disc on a Moots road,there buy making a cr invalid.

Ritchey makes a 1 1/8 carbon fork with disc mounts that looks interesting. Agree that I don't see a huge benefit to a tapered setup, although that definitely does appear to be where things are going.

http://ritcheylogic.com/cross/forks/wcs-carbon-disc-cross-bike-fork.html

[oldpotatoe]

Yeah, you could go steel, but I looked and found the majority if not all carbon forks were tapered if you wanted disc mounts. I for the life of me don't understand it, my Eriksen with a 1 1/8 enve and a Moots 120 stem is almost too stiff.

I just quick looked and it appears you have to get a wishbone stay for disc on a Moots road,there buy making a cr invalid.

Or get a custom Routt with the geometry of a CR...

[ERK55]

While swapping forks down the line may be an option, isn't the back end going to be issue? A Vamoots like mine comes with 130 rear spacing. Don't think Moots would be willing to add disc tabs to that frame.

[pdmtong]

Moots pricing does not favor going to far off the standard models.

If you want some kind of CR/Routt mix better off calling ericksen, kellogg, FF, seven, IF etc....

[oldpotatoe]

Moots pricing does not favor going to far off the standard models.

If you want some kind of CR/Routt mix better off calling ericksen, kellogg, FF, seven, IF etc....

Mosaic.

[jr59]

If you are going custom, why not get the rear of the bike built for both kinds of brakes? Spacing at 132.5 and have either, as you wish. You would need to have another fork.

Not sure i understand the problem. :confused:

[benb]

I'm still planning on getting rim brakes on the road bike I want to build up this winter, but I think my last resistance to discs on a gravel/adventure bike is gone.

I went on a group ride advertised as "mixed terrain" yesterday. To be honest I should have taken my mountain bike. The on road portion of the ride was easy, but I ended up feeling way out of my league in the woods on my bike with Challenge Gravel Grinders (700x38) and TRP CX9s. It was somewhat wet and quite cold and by halfway through the ride the CX9s were just about useless. I might have been the only person on the ride with rim brakes and it was painfully obvious. Then again I wasn't getting good traction with the tires either, so who knows, it was a real torture test for a gravel/CX bike as it was wet with leaves hiding the rocks & wet roots...

I won't go out to replace my current bike but next time I get a "road" bike that accepts big tires it will have disc brakes.

[pdmtong]

Mosaic.
oops! yes, and apologies to Houston.
If you are going custom, why not get the rear of the bike built for both kinds of brakes? Spacing at 132.5 and have either, as you wish. You would need to have another fork. Not sure i understand the problem. :confused:
I think the reality is once you get the bike, you never switch back and forth so while the idea of duality is theoretically great, in practice, you'll prefer it one way, leave it, and then it is aesthetically compromised and somewhat functionally compromised as well
I went on a group ride advertised as "mixed terrain" yesterday. To be honest I should have taken my mountain bike. The on road portion of the ride was easy, but I ended up feeling way out of my league in the woods on my bike with Challenge Gravel Grinders (700x38) and TRP CX9s. It was somewhat wet and quite cold and by halfway through the ride the CX9s were just about useless. I might have been the only person on the ride with rim brakes and it was painfully obvious. Then again I wasn't getting good traction with the tires either, so who knows, it was a real torture test for a gravel/CX bike as it was wet with leaves hiding the rocks & wet roots... .
A fat tire gravel, even with discs, is no substitute for a mtb - body position, weight balance, traction,etc. if on dirt, I want discs...if not just for the reduction in hand pressure needed. I can still recall the old days of lousy canti mtb where you had to stop riding to let your forearm and hands recover from the braking effort.

[benb]

I actually have the odd duck MTB that is compatible with both types of brakes... not sure how many they ever made, I have a Giant NRS frame & Marzocchi fork that have removable posts for V-brakes/Cantis along with mounting points for discs. I'm not sure there were too many NRSes built like that.

I ran the bike with rim brakes for a season or two and then switched to disc.

[p nut]

If you are going custom, why not get the rear of the bike built for both kinds of brakes? Spacing at 132.5 and have either, as you wish. You would need to have another fork.

Not sure i understand the problem. :confused:

You can put both canti studs and disc tabs on forks, too. But the hideous monstrosity it will create, I could not handle.

Also, 132.5 is very annoying regardless of hub size.

Just pick something and go with it.

[teleguy57]

I have never felt any lack whatsoever in my brakes. Never, not in the rain, not in the heat, not on dirt roads, not even in the cold with snow and ice along the way.

Wow, velotel, first awesome photos and prose, and now I really appreciate your insights/commentary on brakes. And to top it off it you channel Dr. Seuss! :)

[veloduffer]

Moots pricing does not favor going to far off the standard models.



I would add Jim Kish as well. When I looked at some custom options for Moots, the cost was prohibitive. Jim was full custom plus paint for less than a custom Moots. Great guy to work with and welds as good or better than most.

[weisan]

Let Nibali school us on Disc vs Rim brakes...:cool:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/nibali-in-favour-of-disc-brakes-in-pro-peloton-but-worried-about-crashes/