Internet claims another LBS

[Tony T]

:(

Bethel Cycle, Washington Depot, CT
I have some sad news to share. Bethel Cycle will be closing on December 7th. For 16 years Bethel Cycle has been my life. I have given it my all. Our business grew strongly, more than doubling by 2010. Only to erode quickly over the past few years from low price driven direct Internet competition. This loss of sales has been very hard for our small shop in our seasonal climate.
I am especially proud of the club we created and I remain touched by the passion and commitment of our riders. We shared some amazing experiences. We had riders win World and National Championships and the Bethel Cycle jersey was known all over the world.
I want to thank all of our customers, club members, racers, sponsors our employees and my good friends and family who have supported my dream.
Greg

[Louis]

Too bad they weren't able to figure out a way to make money doing what they were good at. It's bad news if your primary money-maker is something you can't do very well compared to others out there.

[peanutgallery]

Tough market, but the internet doesn't tune or provide service. Leverage that and you can do well

Being in CT, having something that carries the mail thru the winter is a big deal. Skis, exercise equipment, anow blower repair, whatever it takes

All that aside, the balance sheet tells no lies. Other than overhead there is no line for that

[MattTuck]

If you are in the same business as amazon (namely: trying to serve products at the lowest price to customers who's only brand loyalty is determined by how fast and cheaply you'll ship to them, you are going to be doing a lot of this :crap::crap::crap::crap::crap::crap::crap::crap:

There are ways to make money in cycling, but they almost definitely do not involve 'competing with the internet'. I obviously have no idea of the specifics of this case, or the area or the competitive environment or their level of service, etc... but it is kind of a cop out to blame it on the internet. Now is the time for introspection, not blame.

[sg8357]

The LBS probably had a better quarterly margins than Amazon,
can your LBS survive on 2.5% margins ?
Amazons last number was .31%......3/10s of a percent.

[txcid05]

I feel their pain. The problem isn't the internet per se, it's also got much to do with the distributors. They have practically pushed out smaller orders like those of mom and pop shops. In fact, many manufacturers don't even want to be in smaller shops. They would rather have larger $20k orders, than several $2k orders.

I understand what he's going through, because I owned a guitar shop. It was a routine for someone to come in, test a product, then purchase online. Frustrating? Yes. But whatcha gonna do, you just can't beat the online big boxes. Ain't gonna happen.

[Louis]

It was a routine for someone to come in, test a product, then purchase online. Frustrating? Yes. But whatcha gonna do, you just can't beat the online big boxes. Ain't gonna happen.

Maybe I'm a hero, but I refuse to do this to my LBSs. If I want to buy a new-to-me brand of shoes that is available locally I go try it and if I like it I buy it. However, I do know that Sidi Genius 3 and 4 size 45 fit me like a glove, so if I'm buying that (or G-5) I buy either here or elsewhere online.

[Dustin]

I feel their pain. The problem isn't the internet per se, it's also got much to do with the distributors. They have practically pushed out smaller orders like those of mom and pop shops. In fact, many manufacturers don't even want to be in smaller shops. They would rather have larger $20k orders, than several $2k orders.



I understand what he's going through, because I owned a guitar shop. It was a routine for someone to come in, test a product, then purchase online. Frustrating? Yes. But whatcha gonna do, you just can't beat the online big boxes. Ain't gonna happen.


Maybe this explains why my LBS has a terrible track record in getting me small parts. It's as if they WANT be to go mail order. But it may also just be disorganization.

[buddybikes]

Integrate service, and I don't mean a break/fix wrench. Look at margin stuff:

Local shop with friendly people in it could probably draw people for weekend bike trips to VT.

Custom fitting

Custom frames - bring in a framebuilder - have glass windows showing the brazing, cutting etc. More apt to sell part package off a frame

specialize - recumbents for example

All above to a lower rent district - rent is killer

[Tony T]

Integrate service, and I don't mean a break/fix wrench. Look at margin stuff:

Local shop with friendly people in it could probably draw people for weekend bike trips to VT.

Custom fitting

Custom frames - bring in a framebuilder - have glass windows showing the brazing, cutting etc. More apt to sell part package off a frame

specialize - recumbents for example

All above to a lower rent district - rent is killer

They sponsored a local club.
They had custom fitting.
They had a great location.

[e-RICHIE]

They sponsored a local club.
They had custom fitting.
They had a great location.

Was Greg still in downtown Bethel?
The note mentioning the Depot made me wonder if they moved.

[makoti]

Maybe I'm a hero, but I refuse to do this to my LBSs. If I want to buy a new-to-me brand of shoes that is available locally I go try it and if I like it I buy it. However, I do know that Sidi Genius 3 and 4 size 45 fit me like a glove, so if I'm buying that (or G-5) I buy either here or elsewhere online.

Yep. If you try it on somewhere, buy it there. If you buy another one, buy it where it's cheapest.

[JasonF]

Was Greg still in downtown Bethel?
The note mentioning the Depot made me wonder if they moved.

Yup, still in downtown Bethel. They actually purchased the old train station and converted it into a very nice shop...maybe a bit of Serotta's Saratoga facility is at play here. I think Greg the owner lives in Wash Depot.

I don't live in that area anymore, but know that they were a huge supporter of the cycling scene in there. A big loss.

[tumbler]

Tough market, but the internet doesn't tune or provide service. Leverage that and you can do well


This is true, but it has taught a lot of people how to do basic repairs and maintenance themselves, which is probably another blow to the LBS.

[Tony T]

Was Greg still in downtown Bethel?
The note mentioning the Depot made me wonder if they moved.

Yes. 5 Depot Place Bethel.
(was) A great shop at an old RR Depot:
https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash2/v/t1.0-9/45758_376218032477049_776639690_n.jpg?oh=be2b66c85 ed7c494ee45c5b1f51fee1e&oe=56F23DC2

…probably will now be a Starbucks :(

[kmla320]

Sad to see it go out like this.

[54ny77]

Wow that's a cool space.

Too bad for the shop.

The internet has been one massively disrupting vehicle in the world.

Who could have imagined it being what it has become, and the industries surrounding it (or entirely supported by it).



Yes. 5 Depot Place Bethel.
(was) A great shop at an old RR Depot:
https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash2/v/t1.0-9/45758_376218032477049_776639690_n.jpg?oh=be2b66c85 ed7c494ee45c5b1f51fee1e&oe=56F23DC2

?robably will now be a Starbucks :(

[jischr]

This weekend I went to my LBS for a 10S chain. They offered a Tiagra for $40. It took 3-4 minutes for the guy to find it but I bought it with the thought that I was paying the guys salary. I could have driven a couple miles further, paid $5 more at REI, and gotten Ultegra. Or paid $17 for Tiagra on the internet, plus shipping. The LBS is convenient, but if time isn't critical I tend to look elsewhere.

[old fat man]

This weekend I went to my LBS for a 10S chain. They offered a Tiagra for $40. It took 3-4 minutes for the guy to find it but I bought it with the thought that I was paying the guys salary. I could have driven a couple miles further, paid $5 more at REI, and gotten Ultegra. Or paid $17 for Tiagra on the internet, plus shipping. The LBS is convenient, but if time isn't critical I tend to look elsewhere.

Nothing about your example makes me think the lbs is convenient.

[Louis]

Nothing about your example makes me think the lbs is convenient.

I don't think 3-4 minutes is too much. Price wasn't cheap, but other than that...

If you need something for tomorrow's ride, then the LBS is super-convenient.

[shovelhd]

It's very sad to hear this.

2016 will be interesting, seeing where these racers end up. There were some very, very good riders on that club.

[AngryScientist]

tough situation.

in all honesty, i have no idea how even the best bike shops stay in business. by the time they pay a mechanic and some front help, pay rent and utilities, how to make a living out of what's left?

that's a whole lot of tubes and tune-ups you gotta sell.

i dont know what the answer is, but i definitely see how it can be a problem.

[bcroslin]

Maybe this explains why my LBS has a terrible track record in getting me small parts. It's as if they WANT be to go mail order. But it may also just be disorganization.

I think it's more about shipping costs. Most shops don't want to make an order until they hit the threshold for free shipping. Some distributors it's $450 and others it's $600. In some cases it's easier to order from Amazon or Ribble and sell at no markup to keep a customer. But that means the shop has to have value beyond selling components and accessories.

[parris]

It is unfortunate that shops are getting beat up by the net. When I was a wrench many years ago it was mail order. There are shops have figured out how to survive the low price competition of the net.

I won't walk into a shop any shop and not buy at least something. Unlike the people who window shop then order on line I'm not going to waste the shops time and resources. I know a guy who does this often and it bugs the s**t out of me because it's just not right on several levels.

One question that I have though is percentage wise if it's a part(s) how much more do people thing is reasonable to pay in order to pick it up at an lbs? Provided they have the part in stock.

[54ny77]

to me that's very simple. local retail i'd expect to be similar to online plus shipping at minimum, plus the added variable of the time value of convenience. that varies by item. while on a ride, with a sliced tire and 40 miles from home? yeah, 75 bucks for a conti clincher tire at retail is a great deal. :p


It is unfortunate that shops are getting beat up by the net. When I was a wrench many years ago it was mail order. There are shops have figured out how to survive the low price competition of the net.

I won't walk into a shop any shop and not buy at least something. Unlike the people who window shop then order on line I'm not going to waste the shops time and resources. I know a guy who does this often and it bugs the s**t out of me because it's just not right on several levels.

One question that I have though is percentage wise if it's a part(s) how much more do people thing is reasonable to pay in order to pick it up at an lbs? Provided they have the part in stock.

[SPOKE]

Small, low volume shops can't really catch a break. Wholesale prices from the usual US distributors are higher than any of us can buy the stuff for from an online seller. Fortunately there are a few online sellers based in the US that are now somewhat competitive with the online U.K. sellers.

[beeatnik]

tough situation.

in all honesty, i have no idea how even the best bike shops stay in business. by the time they pay a mechanic and some front help, pay rent and utilities, how to make a living out of what's left?

that's a whole lot of tubes and tune-ups you gotta sell.

i dont know what the answer is, but i definitely see how it can be a problem.

http://www.pasadenastarnews.com/business/20151105/this-one-man-does-everything-at-his-open-road-bicycles-shop-in-pasadena

[Ozrider]

It is a sad reality that the Internet has affected many small business such as book shops, sports stores and bike shops.
My LBS has set themselves apart from the normal bike shop by providing bespoke builds, wheel building and an excellent workshop.
They carry less stock than most and many bikes are built to order with group sets etc ordered to go with a frame set.
They don't carry much in the way of clothing, shoes etc, but can have items in store within a few days.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[soulspinner]

Small, low volume shops can't really catch a break. Wholesale prices from the usual US distributors are higher than any of us can buy the stuff for from an online seller. Fortunately there are a few online sellers based in the US that are now somewhat competitive with the online U.K. sellers.

This......

[oldpotatoe]

Too bad they weren't able to figure out a way to make money doing what they were good at. It's bad news if your primary money-maker is something you can't do very well compared to others out there.

I know little to nothing about this bike shop but I agree. The internet isn't the boogie man, but something to recognize and and live with. BUT, there are 2 'big bike stores' for sale in Boulder right now. I think that 'model' has got to change or they too will go out.

Seems to me, service centered bike shops(there are 3-4 in Boulder) and high Zoot boutiques, like Above Category..these seem to be doing well.

But for a LBS to have a certain model, see that model become less and less successful..I get that he is tired of fighting the fight, and chooses to just quit. Retail is hard.

Gotta say tho, supporting a bike team/club, with the 'expense' of that. It's a form of marketing but when you actively create a bunch of customers who get discounts(meaning if the margin is less than about 37 points(take cost and divide by .63)), you lose money. I found that clubs and teams were not prudent, when it came to marketing. Poor return on investment.

BUT in Boulder, anyway, bike shops don't go out of business because of lack of business, they mostly commit suicide. Do something dumb. Like open a second location, then a third. Then close one, then sell...

[oldpotatoe]

Small, low volume shops can't really catch a break. Wholesale prices from the usual US distributors are higher than any of us can buy the stuff for from an online seller. Fortunately there are a few online sellers based in the US that are now somewhat competitive with the online U.K. sellers.

Because they are owned by distributors, who sell to bike shops and to compete, sell direct to consumers also. They get their margin regardless. UK MO can do it because of European law.

[velomonkey]

Shop was open 16 years as per the letter. The internet was around in 1999 and people were doing plenty of online commerce in 1999.

Bethel cycle used to have a great online presence too. I recall reading about a dale 6/13 on his site and about an IF. He dropped the online stuff and now blames the internet for closing the shop.

That shop had a club most shops would die for. Big numbers, fast riders, in an area where there is a much, much higher percentage of disposable income (tons of NYC and CT bankers live there).

Not saying this doesn't add up, but there are plenty of other shops who are making it work with far less.

It was always on my list of shops to see, too bad it's gone.

[jr59]

Shop was open 16 years as per the letter. The internet was around in 1999 and people were doing plenty of online commerce in 1999.

Bethel cycle used to have a great online presence too. I recall reading about a dale 6/13 on his site and about an IF. He dropped the online stuff and now blames the internet for closing the shop.

That shop had a club most shops would die for. Big numbers, fast riders, in an area where there is a much, much higher percentage of disposable income (tons of NYC and CT bankers live there).

Not saying this doesn't add up, but there are plenty of other shops who are making it work with far less.

It was always on my list of shops to see, too bad it's gone.


I would tend to think in this way.

It's very hard to compete directly with the web. VERY HARD for any retail to do so. You have to find a niche or service that they can't offer. That and manage their cash flow. Anybody that has owned a small retail business will tell you these 2 things. But I'm not in the bike business, so what do I know?

[Mikej]

Yeah, that building is a major expense for a bike shop. As for them going under, its a shame, maybe they could relocate to a smaller - cheaper local? As for the service, There are so many tools and online tutorials out there now a days, that THAT could be the internet claiming another LBS. And as for the team, THAT also is a major expense and PITA -I know - for as fast as I am, I should be getting waaay more..(sarcasm, but you get the drift). Shops are going to have to come up with a side business to run in the space, otherwise they are never going to make it.

[Avincent52]

I'm going to give this guy the benefit of the doubt. If he spent 1/3 of his life building and running a business and he says the internet drove him out of business, I'll respect his decision--and his contribution to the cycling community--by not second guessing that.

The reality is that Ribble is selling Campagnolo parts--at retail including shipping, with little or no "hassle cost"-- for 25 percent below what a U.S. shop pays for the same items.

That's when they're *not* sweetening the deal with a 10 percent off coupon. How do you compete with that?

[jr59]

I'm going to give this guy the benefit of the doubt. If he spent 1/3 of his life building and running a business and he says the internet drove him out of business, I'll respect his decision--and his contribution to the cycling community--by not second guessing that.

The reality is that Ribble is selling Campagnolo parts--at retail including shipping, with little or no "hassle cost"-- for 25 percent below what a U.S. shop pays for the same items.

That's when they're *not* sweetening the deal with a 10 percent off coupon. How do you compete with that?

You don't. That's the point! You can not compete with things like that.

You have to find other things that the web can not offer. This is not news, retail is HARD and finding a niche is hard, and made harder by the net.

As Old Spud said above, service shops and high end fittings shops seem to be doing alright. I'm sure that their are others as well. If you are trying to compete with the web, it's a race to the bottom that no brick and mortar can win.

[earlfoss]

I'll buy my Campy stuff from Ribble any day too because they have the lowest prices and they have excellent customer service. Velomine seems to have the lowest Campy prices of any seller in the USA and they also have very excellent and knowledgeable staff. The thought of going into any other shop and paying what I think is a price they just made up because they think they have a Campy customer over a barrel just kills me.

[velomonkey]

I'm going to give this guy the benefit of the doubt. If he spent 1/3 of his life building and running a business and he says the internet drove him out of business, I'll respect his decision--and his contribution to the cycling community--by not second guessing that.

The reality is that Ribble is selling Campagnolo parts--at retail including shipping, with little or no "hassle cost"-- for 25 percent below what a U.S. shop pays for the same items.

That's when they're *not* sweetening the deal with a 10 percent off coupon. How do you compete with that?


As said below - you don't compete with it - there is zero chance you can win. Maybe the guy needed to make 200k to live and if he can't make that the shop closes. I don't know, no one knows. I do know the demographic he is in, I do know the club he has (had), I do know there are plenty of shops who adjusted and are making it fine - so opened before him some after.

The internet is not a new thing, campy variable pricing is not a new thing.

Any bike retailer blaming the internet is simply half a step shy of blaming the customer - the world simply does not work that way and if you think it does you won't be in business very long.

[SPOKE]

Because they are owned by distributors, who sell to bike shops and to compete, sell direct to consumers also. They get their margin regardless. UK MO can do it because of European law.

Old Spud,
What distributors own which online sellers?

[jmal]

I'm not familiar with the area in which the shop was located, but the photos I have seen all suggest it was a small town. It seems like in order to survive these days you have to have a significant population, and then offer/really push services not available online. Having great stock items helps too. Looking at a map it appears that although it is close to other larger cities, it might not have been a destination for residents of the cities nearby. Just a guess. Most successful shops I have had contact with were either in college towns with a revolving population or growing suburbs with plenty of mobility/circulation in the residents. With the right population base you then have a foundation to build upon. Your fitting schedule needs to be booked solid. Your service area needs to be busy, fast, and dependable while at the same time capable of selling further service/parts when necessary. The sales floor team needs to be able to sell bikes on first contact with the customer, and then sell accessories, bike racks, and clothing to augment the purchase. As soon as the customer walks out the door to the next shop to browse, the odds of them returning diminish. These are just some observations I've made working in and patronizing good shops. It's a tall order and in my opinion requires a number of factors that simply do not exist in many regions of the country. With the increasing competition and evolving marketplace, many shops just do not have the ability to serve, or even a market to serve.

[bobswire]

That would have been a great place to have a have shared with a cafe. My guess is he's is tired after 16 years of making ends meet, got an offer for the property that was too good to turn down at this point (that is if he owned the property outright).

[velomonkey]

I'm not familiar with the area in which the shop was located, but the photos I have seen all suggest it was a small town. It seems like in order to survive these days you have to have a significant population, and then offer/really push services not available online.

The world HQ of IBM is right there - tons of employees live over there so they don't pay NY property taxes (IBM is in NY). Tons of bankers live there - bankers who go into NYC and bankers who work in CT. Trust me, that part of CT is plenty loaded. It's not a small town, but it's also not a city either - it's a bedroom community for NYC and the corporate park part of Westchester, NY.

[weisan]

This thread sort of reminds me of "Ben & Serotta Co."

Good run.

Knowing when to start is just as important as knowing when to quit.

[benb]

I don't even know how the US online guys are going to survive at the rate things are going...

I just got some shifters, I wanted to order them from Ribble but they were out of stock..

LBS probably would have been $500
I got them on Amazon for $360
Ribble was advertising for $200

I ordered some brake pads yesterday at one of the LBSes, they just moved into a gorgeous new facility and I noticed they are going to have a Cafe section. Smart move. Looked like it was just going to be a Keurig machine though...

[oldpotatoe]

I'll buy my Campy stuff from Ribble any day too because they have the lowest prices and they have excellent customer service. Velomine seems to have the lowest Campy prices of any seller in the USA and they also have very excellent and knowledgeable staff. The thought of going into any other shop and paying what I think is a price they just made up because they think they have a Campy customer over a barrel just kills me.

Most shops understand margin, they aren't making anything up. They take wholesale $ and divide by .65 or so to get a margin of about 35 points...which is recognized as the minimum to pay your fixed costs and not lose money.

Problem is the wholesale they pay is what uk places sell this stuff for. This idea that they price that way isn't accurate.

[benb]

Most shops understand margin, they aren't making anything up. They take wholesale $ and divide by .65 or so to get a margin of about 35 points...which is recognized as the minimum to pay your fixed costs and not lose money.

Problem is the wholesale they pay is what uk places sell this stuff for. This idea that they price that way isn't accurate.

The thing is whose fault is it that the LBS pays way more wholesale for parts than the European shops can sell for? Why aren't the US shops forming some kind of group and making a stink to Shimano, etc.. to get a better rate on parts? Why aren't the Trek/Specialized/Giant dealers screaming to Trek/Specialized/Giant to get some help? If 500 dealers all of a sudden signed a letter to Trek & Shimano saying they're not selling anything till the problem is fixed I bet the problem could get fixed. We've been hearing the LBSes are getting a bum deal for as long as I've been cycling and nothing has changed in all that time.

[velomonkey]

Costco sells paper towels at retail for about the same wholesale price the local corner store pays. Heck, I go to Costco and see people who are clearly running their own business buying their ingredients for their food business - hot dog vendors buying dogs and condiments, small artisanal bakers buying their flower and eggs, cart vendors buying ingredients for soups . . .

When I worked in shop from 92 to 96 while on college it was cheaper for us as employees to order a build kit from colorado cyclist than it was to get the wholesale price of a group set from quality. There is nothing new here with Ribble.

I will say, from 03 to 10 or thereabouts it was so much easier for a shop to sell a high end road bike to a client due to the Lance effect. When I worked in a shop we couldn't give away road bikes - $300 hybrids and $500 mtb bikes were the order of the day. Then in 03 shops were selling 3k treks like hotcakes. Those days are reduced but they are still way higher than it was in the 90s, or 80s or 70s.

[jmal]

The world HQ of IBM is right there - tons of employees live over there so they don't pay NY property taxes (IBM is in NY). Tons of bankers live there - bankers who go into NYC and bankers who work in CT. Trust me, that part of CT is plenty loaded. It's not a small town, but it's also not a city either - it's a bedroom community for NYC and the corporate park part of Westchester, NY.

That's a good start, but if it is a smallish community and everyone has a bike, and their families have bikes, the shop needs something else to survive. That's why I mentioned a mobile population. You need the customer base to constantly change so that you always have new customers. It's not the high end bikes that sustain the shop, but rather the low end bikes that you can sell at higher margins and higher volume.

I have no idea why the shop closed. Perhaps the market is perfectly sustainable there. If it is a loaded community, I would guess that real estate is at a premium and might have played a role. The Internet certainly hurts many shops, but most shops don't make their money selling component groups that a sliver of the population knows they can buy from the UK at a huge discount. If that is the only customer base a shop has, then they have narrowed themselves out of business.

[jmal]

Costco sells paper towels at retail for about the same wholesale price the local corner store pays. Heck, I go to Costco and see people who are clearly running their own business buying their ingredients for their food business - hot dog vendors buying dogs and condiments, small artisanal bakers buying their flower and eggs, cart vendors buying ingredients for soups . . .

When I worked in shop from 92 to 96 while on college it was cheaper for us as employees to order a build kit from colorado cyclist than it was to get the wholesale price of a group set from quality. There is nothing new here with Ribble.

I will say, from 03 to 10 or thereabouts it was so much easier for a shop to sell a high end road bike to a client due to the Lance effect. When I worked in a shop we couldn't give away road bikes - $300 hybrids and $500 mtb bikes were the order of the day. Then in 03 shops were selling 3k treks like hotcakes. Those days are reduced but they are still way higher than it was in the 90s, or 80s or 70s.

The Lance effect definitely inflated the market. I almost wonder if some shops were led astray by the Lance bubble only to find that it wasn't sustainable.

[benb]

When I worked in shop from 92 to 96 while on college it was cheaper for us as employees to order a build kit from colorado cyclist than it was to get the wholesale price of a group set from quality. There is nothing new here with Ribble.


So my experience is 16 years, you've brought that up to 24, there are lots of smart LBS owners, why hasn't this problem been fixed in all these years?

I actually suspect one of the more successful LBSes in my area is actually sourcing parts from alternative sources to be competitive and perhaps taking chances on warranty issues. Say they're buying Shimano components.. they could probably save enough buying overseas themselves to eat the warranty costs themselves.

[Gummee]

So my experience is 16 years, you've brought that up to 24, there are lots of smart LBS owners, why hasn't this problem been fixed in all these years?

I actually suspect one of the more successful LBSes in my area is actually sourcing parts from alternative sources to be competitive and perhaps taking chances on warranty issues. Say they're buying Shimano components.. they could probably save enough buying overseas themselves to eat the warranty costs themselves.

Shimano made a stink about online sellers, etc a few years ago when they chopped many distributors out of the loop. All that did was make things tougher


M

[BobbyJones]

Absolutely right. Greg should've looked into the whole coffee / bike shop combo from the get go!

Yes. 5 Depot Place Bethel.
(was) A great shop at an old RR Depot:
https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash2/v/t1.0-9/45758_376218032477049_776639690_n.jpg?oh=be2b66c85 ed7c494ee45c5b1f51fee1e&oe=56F23DC2

?robably will now be a Starbucks :(

[velomonkey]

So my experience is 16 years, you've brought that up to 24, there are lots of smart LBS owners, why hasn't this problem been fixed in all these years?



I think it's easier for some owners to point to the internet and lay blame. I haven't been to that shop, but I will say road biking has decreased and other bikes have increased - gravel, mtb and cross - even fat bikes. Are these bikes making up for the lost ground? Not sure, but they are rising for sure. Where I live we had huge group rides all during 03 to 10 - then they got smaller and smaller. They seemed to have leveled off, but people left are for sure riding gravel a lot more - no doubt there at least where I live.

Here is what I will say - any shop betting on Trek, Specialized and Giant better start to transition to other brands ASAP.

[Mikej]

LBS needs to offer more -we like all kinds of expensive things that they could supply us with but they overlook - Coaching, physio testing, PT, training plans, nutrition, bike destination trips in the winter or to big races like the MTB Whiskey 50, or sea otter, sunny warm temp training camps etc. Why sell us a derailleur when you can sell us the experience we want? You have to supply something we want and cant do or buy cheaper somewhere else.

[Tony T]

LBS needs to offer more -we like all kinds of expensive things that they could supply us with but they overlook - Coaching, physio testing, PT, training plans, nutrition, bike destination trips in the winter or to big races like the MTB Whiskey 50, or sea otter, sunny warm temp training camps etc. Why sell us a derailleur when you can sell us the experience we want? You have to supply something we want and cant do or buy cheaper somewhere else.

Something like this? http://www.bethelcycle.com/rides--tours--camp.html

[Mikej]

Something like this? http://www.bethelcycle.com/rides--tours--camp.html

oh well....not the first time!

[Dead Man]

I've talked about it recently, but my favorite shop, Western Bike Works, does most of their sales online. They've got a nice storefront in NW Portland, and then a huge warehouse full of parts across the river, where their online sales fly from. Nice thing is if the shop doesn't have something in stock, and they have to "order it," you can actually just go across town and pick it up right then. They do fitting and service and saddle loans and stuff at the shop, which may or may not even pay for itself... place is usually pretty empty

One of my favorite climbing shops is the same way.. OMC - Oregon Mountain Community... itty bitty little boutique shop on Sandy in NE Portland, with a huge warehouse shipping gear via e-OMC. Go in for a boot fitting or try on a harness or whatever... and then also get online price for it.... crazy best of both worlds.

This isn't Mom n Pop. Mom n Pop is dead. Society evolves. But it is in your neighborhood.

[oldpotatoe]

The thing is whose fault is it that the LBS pays way more wholesale for parts than the European shops can sell for? Why aren't the US shops forming some kind of group and making a stink to Shimano, etc.. to get a better rate on parts? Why aren't the Trek/Specialized/Giant dealers screaming to Trek/Specialized/Giant to get some help? If 500 dealers all of a sudden signed a letter to Trek & Shimano saying they're not selling anything till the problem is fixed I bet the problem could get fixed. We've been hearing the LBSes are getting a bum deal for as long as I've been cycling and nothing has changed in all that time.

Called collusion and illegal in the US.

[BobbyJones]

Called collusion and illegal in the US.

Yet amazing how manufacturers and distributors have the other side of things soooooo locked up.

[beeatnik]

How the largest one man bike shop in America makes it work:

"Bikes go up to $22,000 right now," he said. It's ridiculous. I don't believe in wasting a person's money."

"Thirty percent of my sales come from bikes and the other 70 percent comes from accessories," Lubanski said. "I might sell 150 to 200 bikes in a year. But some shops will sell 800 bikes in a year. I'm an accessory shop, not a bike shop."

"I have 400 pairs of bike shorts in stock," he said. "There's no one else in the United States who has 400 pairs of shorts. You sell a person one or two bikes every five years. That's not a business model to me especially since I'm working a one-man shop. But you might sell them 20 pairs of shorts over their lifetime. It's not like the bikes are an after-thought ... they're the whipped cream on the cake."

Lubanski works seven days a week.

"I get seven days a year off," he said. "New Year's Day, Easter, my wedding anniversary, the Fourth of July, a day off for the bike show, Thanksgiving and Christmas."

Simple

http://www.pasadenastarnews.com/business/20151105/this-one-man-does-everything-at-his-open-road-bicycles-shop-in-pasadena

[oldpotatoe]

Yet amazing how manufacturers and distributors have the other side of things soooooo locked up.

U.K. Distributors aren't doing anything illegal. Neither are the USA distributors who sell direct. The entity who should be controlling their distribution and pricing are the manufacturers. Them going direct to bike shops would solve a lot of this but expensive to do so.

[SpokeValley]

I don't even know how the US online guys are going to survive at the rate things are going...

I just got some shifters, I wanted to order them from Ribble but they were out of stock..

LBS probably would have been $500
I got them on Amazon for $360
Ribble was advertising for $200

I ordered some brake pads yesterday at one of the LBSes, they just moved into a gorgeous new facility and I noticed they are going to have a Cafe section. Smart move. Looked like it was just going to be a Keurig machine though...

Remember that the currency exchange rate has major impact on the total price.

[CunegoFan]

The thing is whose fault is it that the LBS pays way more wholesale for parts than the European shops can sell for? Why aren't the US shops forming some kind of group and making a stink to Shimano, etc.. to get a better rate on parts? Why aren't the Trek/Specialized/Giant dealers screaming to Trek/Specialized/Giant to get some help? If 500 dealers all of a sudden signed a letter to Trek & Shimano saying they're not selling anything till the problem is fixed I bet the problem could get fixed. We've been hearing the LBSes are getting a bum deal for as long as I've been cycling and nothing has changed in all that time.

It seems to me that the current situation helps Trekalized. The old school way of buying a frame and the LBS building it up with the desired components is dead except in the rare instances of people, mostly old guys remembering what it was like back in the day, buying a bespoke frame made by a builder that the average cyclist has never heard of; and a lot of those guys will put the bike together themselves. The prices make that option very expensive unless the customer sources the components from overseas. The high cost of replacing or upgrading components is one more thing that leads to people buying a whole new Trekalized bike.

[velomonkey]

The old school way of buying a frame and the LBS building it up with the desired components is dead except in the rare instances of people, mostly old guys remembering what it was like back in the day, buying a bespoke frame made by a builder that the average cyclist has never heard of; and a lot of those guys will put the bike together themselves.

I disagree - or rather, feel that it doesn't have to die. Above Category seems to be doing plenty of custom builds, veto studio in Chicago seems to - both are new shops.

[CunegoFan]

I disagree - or rather, feel that it doesn't have to die. Above Category seems to be doing plenty of custom builds, veto studio in Chicago seems to - both are new shops.

How many people buy bare frames these days? It would be cool if it went back to that, but unless LDSes can source parts for OEM prices then that way of buying a bike is at a disadvantage to buying a bike out of a box. And there is already an attitude, which seems nearly universal, that the best bike is whatever Trekalized has slapped the highest price on.

I am just saying that even though some of the customers get screwed when it comes to replacing broken components or upgrading, the price disparities appear to help the big bike companies, so those companies might not want to pressure Shimano.

[oldpotatoe]

It seems to me that the current situation helps Trekalized. The old school way of buying a frame and the LBS building it up with the desired components is dead except in the rare instances of people, mostly old guys remembering what it was like back in the day, buying a bespoke frame made by a builder that the average cyclist has never heard of; and a lot of those guys will put the bike together themselves. The prices make that option very expensive unless the customer sources the components from overseas. The high cost of replacing or upgrading components is one more thing that leads to people buying a whole new Trekalized bike.

Shops like Vecchio's, that starts with a frame(like Moots) and builds it is common in Boulder and elsewhere. I think it depends on shop location and the frame. None of the big boy frame makers, Crumpton, Seven, Moots, etc, sell complete bikes. Economy of scale, knowing your market, etc. what I think is disappearing is $10,000 treks and spec-Eds.

[benb]

Isn't collusion only an issue if you're on the supply side?

E.x. it was collusion & anti-competitive behavior when Apple and the big publishing houses ganged up to try and raise bike prices.

But it's not collusion if everyone on Paceline agrees to boycott parts ordered from QBP.

In any case I'm 38.. I've only bought one road bike & one MTB complete in my life. I really don't think buying a frame & building it up is dead in any way at all or is only for old guys.

And it's not like it has to be bespoke.. I've had 2 Giants that I built up from framesets, a Trek, etc.. the only one of the bikes that wasn't a stock "big bike co." frame was my Serotta.

What is dead is that if you want a brand new current modely year frame at a good price you're not going to get it from the big companies since they refuse to sell anything but the most expensive $3k+ made in china stuff as frame only. (E.x. Trek 6, Specialized S-works, etc..) All my stuff was mostly the LBS had a frame that hadn't sold and it was a couple years old and things worked out at a decent price.

[djg21]

The thing is whose fault is it that the LBS pays way more wholesale for parts than the European shops can sell for? Why aren't the US shops forming some kind of group and making a stink to Shimano, etc.. to get a better rate on parts? Why aren't the Trek/Specialized/Giant dealers screaming to Trek/Specialized/Giant to get some help? If 500 dealers all of a sudden signed a letter to Trek & Shimano saying they're not selling anything till the problem is fixed I bet the problem could get fixed. We've been hearing the LBSes are getting a bum deal for as long as I've been cycling and nothing has changed in all that time.

It's called a group boycott, and it's been illegal since Section 1 of the Sherman Antitrust Act was signed into law in July 1890.

[Avincent52]

It's called a group boycott, and it's been illegal since Section 1 of the Sherman Antitrust Act was signed into law in July 1890.

If Amazon is working on margins of less than 1 percent (.31 according to an earlier post) isn't *that* an anti-competitive business practice?

[benb]

It's called a group boycott, and it's been illegal since Section 1 of the Sherman Antitrust Act was signed into law in July 1890.

Yah but would the shops be guilty of anti-trust for trying to get a better deal, or would the parts manufacturers be found guilty for colluding with the distributor to raise the prices in the first place?

[kevinvc]

I've talked about it recently, but my favorite shop, Western Bike Works, does most of their sales online. They've got a nice storefront in NW Portland, and then a huge warehouse full of parts across the river, where their online sales fly from. Nice thing is if the shop doesn't have something in stock, and they have to "order it," you can actually just go across town and pick it up right then. They do fitting and service and saddle loans and stuff at the shop, which may or may not even pay for itself... place is usually pretty empty

It's not my favorite shop, but it's a good model. They've also added a small coffee bar up front and do regular rides from the store that are open to folks other than just the team they sponsor. I've found the customer service and knowledge level to be kind of hit and miss, just like any retailer, but overall pretty good.

It's all about getting people in the door and building a certain amount of brand loyalty.

[djg21]

If Amazon is working on margins of less than 1 percent (.31 according to an earlier post) isn't *that* an anti-competitive business practice?

Maybe if it Amazon's pricing policy is predatory, i.e., it is selling at unsustainably low margins to drive competitors from the market so it can later capture "monopoly rents" by raising prices once the competition is gone. There is a lot of competition out there, and this would b a difficult theory to prove.

[Dead Man]

It's not my favorite shop, but it's a good model. They've also added a small coffee bar up front and do regular rides from the store that are open to folks other than just the team they sponsor. I've found the customer service and knowledge level to be kind of hit and miss, just like any retailer, but overall pretty good.

It's all about getting people in the door and building a certain amount of brand loyalty.

Who do you prefer locally? I do 100% of my own wrenching, so ive never really had to experience Western's shop service. It's their stock i love about them - which just isnt feasible for the smaller shops.

[djg21]

Yah but would the shops be guilty of anti-trust for trying to get a better deal, or would the parts manufacturers be found guilty for colluding with the distributor to raise the prices in the first place?

This isn't the place for a discourse of antitrust economics and jurisprudence. You can do a search of "group boycott" and find a volume of scholarly articles and discussions. Maybe start here: https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/competition-guidance/guide-antitrust-laws/dealings-competitors/group-boycotts. But whenever there is an agreement between competitors to refuse to deal with a supplier, the competition can have antitrust exposure.

As to your second question, I'm not sure what you mean by "collusion" between a manufacturer and distributor. In any event, the entities have a vertical, rather than horizontal, relationship, so there is a lesser likelihood of there being antitrust issues, and a lot would depend on the market power enjoyed by the manufacturer and/or distributor. In short, it depends but probably not.

[shovelhd]

Examples of major manufacturers frame sets under $3K

Specialized Allez
Giant TCR Advanced Pro
Felt F1
Cervelo R3/S3

[Avincent52]

Maybe if it Amazon's pricing policy is predatory, i.e., it is selling at unsustainably low margins to drive competitors from the market so it can later capture "monopoly rents" by raising prices once the competition is gone. There is a lot of competition out there, and this would b a difficult theory to prove.

Isn't that Amazon's long game? Why else would they consistently operate at a loss or very close to it despite their huge market share?

A Slate writer argued that Amazon is essentially functioning as a charitable enterprise, with investors subsidizing consumers. When I got a $100 price adjustment on a $200 pair of Sennheiser headphones at Best Buy, that's only a slight exaggeration.

http://www.ibtimes.com/amazon-nearly-20-years-business-it-still-doesnt-make-money-investors-dont-seem-care-1513368

Many posters have argued that Bethel Cycle should make their profits on wrenching and bike fit and fitness and coffee and trips. Not sure about the coffee, but a look at the website suggests they're doing all the other things at a very high level (like a "camp" in the French Alps.)

IMHO once they stop selling "bikes and the parts that go on them" for a profit they've ceased to be a bike shop.

I've never been to Bethel Cycle, but from looking at the website it does look like the shop owner made a very serious effort and it's sad when that isn't enough to sustain a business.

(This from their website.)


Bethel Cycle has evolved.... In the spring of 2011 we moved into Bethel's historic old train station. The revitalization of the vacant train station has been much more than creating a cool - hip retail space. The reason was deeply rooted in creating a center, a focal point, for the local cycling community. The Bethel "cycling depot" is a place where cyclists are welcome to meet, visit and hang out.

Bethel Cycle is a strong advocate for cycling and the sport. We have a thriving club Bethel Cycle Sport and our staff loves to share the camaraderie of cycling together with our customers. The pinnacle of this is our Bethel Cycle French Alps Camp. We promote and sponsor local rides, races and cycling events.

To be frank, Internet Sales has made it hard for shops like us to survive This past year 4 local shops have shut their doors. I urge you to preserve the tradition and culture of cycling by supporting your local bike shop.

[djg21]

Isn't that Amazon's long game? Why else would they consistently operate at a loss or very close to it despite their huge market share?

A Slate writer argued that Amazon is essentially functioning as a charitable enterprise, with investors subsidizing consumers. When I got a $100 price adjustment on a $200 pair of Sennheiser headphones at Best Buy, that's only a slight exaggeration.

http://www.ibtimes.com/amazon-nearly-20-years-business-it-still-doesnt-make-money-investors-dont-seem-care-1513368

Could be, but is there a likelihood of success? What is the likelihood that Amazon could drive all other internet vendors (and brick and mortar sellers) from the market so it can raise its prices to anticompetitive levels? Then, what barriers to entry would prevent new competitors from entering the market in such a scenario and putting downward pressure on prices?

I'm cynical, but I don't see it happening. Eventually, Amazon will need to produce revenue to the extent it is not now. If it's pricing model is not sustainable, it will go out of business before it eliminates competition enough to raise prices to monopoly levels. In the meanwhile, the lower prices are good for consumers.

There is no easy answer to your question and it is all theoretical.

[Avincent52]

Could be, but is there a likelihood of success? What is the likelihood that Amazon could drive all other internet vendors (and brick and mortar sellers) from the market so it can raise its prices to anticompetitive levels? Then, what barriers to entry would prevent new competitors from entering the market in such a scenario and putting downward pressure on prices?

I'm cynical, but I don't see it happening. Eventually, Amazon will need to produce revenue to the extent it is not now. If it's pricing model is not sustainable, it will go out of business before it eliminates competition enough to raise prices to monopoly levels. In the meanwhile, the lower prices are good for consumers.

There is no easy answer to your question and it is all theoretical.

Regardless of the ultimate reason (and I'm not sure Amazon even knows) I do think that Amazon's pricing has the effect of lowering prices and margins to an unsustainable level for many brick-and-mortar retailers and I wonder why no one seems to see this as a problem.

It's like the question of why candidates and their PACS pay millions to campaign for POUTS, a job that pays $400,000 a year.

(Like the joke in The film The American President.
POTUS: Why don't you work for me?
Lobbyist: Because you can't afford me
POTUS: How much do you make?
Lobbyist: More than you.)

[benb]

Amazon actually loses money on all this stuff (bikes, retail). They did just recently close a quarter where retail turned a profit but it was something insane like $4 million profit on many billions in revenue.

It's all propped up by Amazon Web Services, which is astoundingly profitable. (In general software/computer services have profit margins that would make the bike industry's head explode.)

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

Was Greg still in downtown Bethel?
The note mentioning the Depot made me wonder if they moved.

Same area, moved two blocks to the old train station. Very cool shop. Shame.

[shovelhd]

Amazons profit is in AWS.

[djg21]

Regardless of the ultimate reason (and I'm not sure Amazon even knows) I do think that Amazon's pricing has the effect of lowering prices and margins to an unsustainable level for many brick-and-mortar retailers and I wonder why no one seems to see this as a problem.

It's like the question of why candidates and their PACS pay millions to campaign for POUTS, a job that pays $400,000 a year.

(Like the joke in The film The American President.
POTUS: Why don't you work for me?
Lobbyist: Because you can't afford me
POTUS: How much do you make?
Lobbyist: More than you.)

But the fact that Amazon's pricing is unsustainable by its brick and mortar competitors is not in an of itself problematic. Amazon arguably is outcompeting its competitors. That is what all businesses aspire to do. The question is whether Amazon can monopolize a given market by means of a predatory pricing policy!

[redir]

[QUOTE=txcid05;1865468]I feel their pain. The problem isn't the internet per se, it's also got much to do with the distributors. They have practically pushed out smaller orders like those of mom and pop shops. In fact, many manufacturers don't even want to be in smaller shops. They would rather have larger $20k orders, than several $2k orders.

I understand what%2

[kmla320]

Same one different owner

[slidey]

For those interested, there was a good discussion a couple of weeks back: http://onpoint.wbur.org/2015/11/04/amazon-walmart-e-commerce-economy

And, yes - Amazon has a profit-making division that no other retailer has, or likely will have, AWS.

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

Absolutely right. Greg should've looked into the whole coffee / bike shop combo from the get go!

There's an artisan coffee house nearby and TWO Starbuck's in/near Bethel. Greg was a very knowledgeable, passionate owner. I've supported the shop, patronized it and have had a lot of work done there including having wheels built by a former mechanic. Some of the best handbuilts I've ever ridden. Why did he close, that's a question you'd have to ask him. Oh and I live in Bethel and don't work for IBM and I'm not a banker etc. Bethel isn't defined by Wikipedia, come visit, then you'll get the gist. The local demo had little to do with this. Again a true shame, the shop and Greg will be missed.

[cfox]

I live 5 minutes from the place, and while it's a shame it's closing, I'm not surprised. They were a very race oriented shop, and did TONS to promote the local racing scene/culture, but at the same time, the staff was very dismissive and standoffish if you weren't part of the local crowd. As much as the local racers loved the place, they had a reputation for pretty crappy service for your average schmo. Unfortunately, the internet is a candy store of savings for the exact customer they were trying to cultivate. Racer dude has a hard time passing up half price parts, while average schmo is heading to Ridgefield to buy a $1,000 Felt for his 8yr old (Ridgefield Bike Co. can't keep enough fancy kids bikes in stock). And average schmo will be bringing that Felt back every time the tire pressure is low. I think a race oriented shop with knowledgeable customers is a tough go in the internet age.

[Seramount]

...the staff was very dismissive....they had a reputation for pretty crappy service for your average schmo.

and there you have it...

shops that act like they're doing the customer a favor by working on their bike create their own destiny.

[bigbill]

The closest shop to me is more than an hour away. Factor in that all my stuff is campy, that shop can't do anything for me anyway. There is a place for shops, especially in service, but they have to service all kinds of bikes and drivetrains. The locals all ride SRAM or Shimano and are willing to hop in their cars and drive 90 minutes to have a broken cable replaced. I fix a lot of local bikes and keep stuff like cables, housings, tires, and chains in my garage. When I order parts, I usually add in some stuff the locals will need. I just charge them a few bucks over what I paid.

I wish there were good shops everywhere, but the direction that cycling has gone in the past decade has promoted just a couple of brands that don't speak to each other. Along with that is service aligned to a brand and dinosaurs like me that ride steel bikes end up doing our own work. I need a shop for headsets and occasional wheel issues. I need to learn wheels.

[thunderworks]

I don't know anything about this shop other than what I've read in this thread. I have no opinion about either the skills or deficiencies, if any that the store brought to the market place they served.

I do however, have some perspective on the retail bike business. I owned a bike shop for over twenty years. My store was successful in its market. I earned a good living from the store and it supported 11 employees at its peak.

The store was a broad spectrum store. We served the serious enthusiast, offering "pro" level frames and bikes. We also served the entry level buyer, offering beginning price points. . . We organized rides for our customers, promoted sales and events, treated everyone who walked in the door as a potential revenue generator.

We made money in the middle part of the market - People who wanted safe, fun, reliable bicycles, but who weren't necessarily "bikies." We did not sponsor racers or athletes who wanted discounts. We did not promote races. We promoted "rides" that encouraged a broad cross section of people to ride their bikes.

We had an excellent service department. We charged a lot for our work, but stood behind it with a satisfaction guarantee.

Bottom line to me is that I think there is still a place for the LBS in our culture, but I believe that the economics are such that the money is made in the middle of the spectrum that is not represented by your typical forumite. They are not shoppers on Ribble. They are not pro bike buyers. The high end, fun hardware niche is not consistently profitable. While a shop might want to represent that niche of the industry because it's fun and it keeps employees interested and happy, the money is made elsewhere. . .specifically the non tech-savvy, service dependent buyer.

All of the above, just my opinion . . .

[buddybikes]

Thing about bikes is they need to get put together, unless Amazon figures how to ship a complete bike pedals and everthing on. Friend of mine want to find biggest "bargain" for about 1,000 expecting me to put together of course. Advised that I will be out for 3 months recouping from surgery. So what is a buyer to do, head to a shop I hope.

Coffee shops won't do it, how can coffee generate revenue when people just come in and hang out? This isn't Dunkin Donuts that turn over a coffee every 30 seconds... Bethel is a high rent housing market. People work long hours getting to NY. You need to figure out how to cater to that market. Bet all the stores downtown are shops in insane margin for it "uniqueness". Bikes other that total custom which is a tiny market aren't unique. Want a Specialzed, call 10 shops within a drive and see who is the cheapest.

[peanutgallery]

Sounds like the train station was a bridge too far. Cool but it probably created some $ leverage that didn't work out

I pull a little time at a ski/bike shop for a few extra quid and pro deals. Here is the difference in the customer:

Bike customer: grizzled 50s male in lycra brings bike in store and proudly leans his crusty 10 year old rig against the counter, right in front of the register. He has on weather beaten lycra and his shorts are so worn his balls are practically hanging out. Proceeds to step in between you and a real customer to ask a million and one questions about the 10 dollar helmet mirror versus 20 dollar helmet mirror. Asks to bororrow a pump, tool, restroom, chain lube, rag in no particular order. Interrupts you again for a quickie repair. Then leaves the store leavin only BO and dirt on the floor behind. Definitely no money spent

Ski customer: pulls ginormous suv into parking lot with entire family in tow. Walks out 2 hours later several grand lighter with a huge smile. The money was spent before he even turned into the lot

Bike customers can be tough, if you want to make it worth your while you have to be willing to be out of the box and ignore the crusty old guy mentioned above

[parris]

^ You reminded me of every ski season when I was in the business :) . I initially couldn't wrap my head around how much easier it actually was to sell ski gear. Skiers also typically didn't squawk at all when they brought their skis in for tunes.

[MikeD]

Small, low volume shops can't really catch a break. Wholesale prices from the usual US distributors are higher than any of us can buy the stuff for from an online seller. Fortunately there are a few online sellers based in the US that are now somewhat competitive with the online U.K. sellers.


Why do we have this system in the US and not in Europe? The problem is middlemen like QBP and not the Internet, per se.

That said, I believe that the LBS needs to make money on service, clothing, rentals, new and used bikes, skis, snowboards in the winter, coffee, anything but components, most of which have to be ordered anyway.

[pbarry]

and there you have it...

shops that act like they're doing the customer a favor by working on their bike create their own destiny.

That's why OP/Peter's former business is still thriving in a locale with a similar demographic. Peter did not do what you describe, nor does Potter now.

I am always treated well at Vecchios, whether I'm buying a small Campy part or a copy of Rouleur, or go in to shoot the bull. Jim let me scour the used parts bins once when looking for a DS 7400 cup. He gave me the one and only in the bin. Peter has set me up too many times to mention. It was always a bike "tribe" thing, for lack of a better word, and you always know that and remember..

If I made more coin, I'd go in there with an open checkbook and order a built up Moots avec Campy. That's how much good will they've earned from me. :hello:

[GParkes]

Funny how this thread pops up on the same day I spent two hours at LBS getting fit (second time - both road and TT fit sessions from him) and visiting with old friend. He's been in biz 20 years, recently moved to smaller location for good business reasons, and people are giving him crap. I told him that he'll still have his core customers, overhead will be in half, and should be able to exist for some time longer. Smart move, and his specialty is fitting, does some real neat winter training sessions, and has good mechanical skills. BUT, he did say even he sources parts from Europe. He has it somewhat figured out. Won't get rich, but should exist. I will say as a commercial lender for almost 30 years, the rent factor on the Bethel shop had to be enormous, way beyond what thin margin bike shops can handle.

[Llewellyn]

I don't know anything about this shop other than what I've read in this thread. I have no opinion about either the skills or deficiencies, if any that the store brought to the market place they served.

I do however, have some perspective on the retail bike business. I owned a bike shop for over twenty years. My store was successful in its market. I earned a good living from the store and it supported 11 employees at its peak.

The store was a broad spectrum store. We served the serious enthusiast, offering "pro" level frames and bikes. We also served the entry level buyer, offering beginning price points. . . We organized rides for our customers, promoted sales and events, treated everyone who walked in the door as a potential revenue generator.

We made money in the middle part of the market - People who wanted safe, fun, reliable bicycles, but who weren't necessarily "bikies." We did not sponsor racers or athletes who wanted discounts. We did not promote races. We promoted "rides" that encouraged a broad cross section of people to ride their bikes.

We had an excellent service department. We charged a lot for our work, but stood behind it with a satisfaction guarantee.

Bottom line to me is that I think there is still a place for the LBS in our culture, but I believe that the economics are such that the money is made in the middle of the spectrum that is not represented by your typical forumite. They are not shoppers on Ribble. They are not pro bike buyers. The high end, fun hardware niche is not consistently profitable. While a shop might want to represent that niche of the industry because it's fun and it keeps employees interested and happy, the money is made elsewhere. . .specifically the non tech-savvy, service dependent buyer.

All of the above, just my opinion . . .

Great post, should be read by everybody in bike retail :hello:

[Llewellyn]

I don't know if this still happens but I remember that a lot of LBS's wouldn't install parts that a customer had bought from Ribble, Chain Reaction etc. If I owned an LBS I'd happily install them for customers - may be with a premium, maybe not. But cash in the door is still cash in the door.

And I'll bet the rent for that flash railway premises was a factor in the closure.

[Dead Man]

I don't know if this still happens but I remember that a lot of LBS's wouldn't install parts that a customer had bought from Ribble, Chain Reaction etc. If I owned an LBS I'd happily install them for customers - may be with a premium, maybe not. But cash in the door is still cash in the door.

And I'll bet the rent for that flash railway premises was a factor in the closure.

I feel like I keep bringing up climbing/skiing .. but this was an issue for ski shops when people started buying their own gear online - a lot wouldn't mold boots purchased online. Eventually, they got wise and realized they were endangered species if they gave up the ONE thing the internet couldn't do... so now they just charge a pretty penny for liner molding and punching.

And when I can get a $800 boot for $300 on closeout online, I'm happy to give the local shop $100 to make 'em fit me feetsies.

[carpediemracing]

I heard a rumor, not substantiated, that the rent on the new space was $1/year. Historic site, owned by town, etc.

Greg spoke with me this summer. He said that things were tough. He apologized for any past misunderstandings between us. He complimented me on holding the Bethel Spring Series for so long, said it really impacted his shop. The feeling I got was that he had come to peace with something and I was just a beneficiary of that epiphany.

I wasn't able to visit the new shop, but I was a customer at his old one. I even bought my trio of HED wheels back in 2010 - the Bastognes, Jet 6/9, and Stinger 6s - from him.

[djg21]

I heard a rumor, not substantiated, that the rent on the new space was $1/year. Historic site, owned by town, etc.

Greg spoke with me this summer. He said that things were tough. He apologized for any past misunderstandings between us. He complimented me on holding the Bethel Spring Series for so long, said it really impacted his shop. The feeling I got was that he had come to peace with something and I was just a beneficiary of that epiphany.

I wasn't able to visit the new shop, but I was a customer at his old one. I even bought my trio of HED wheels back in 2010 - the Bastognes, Jet 6/9, and Stinger 6s - from him.

Aki: when did you stop working at the shop? I remember seeing you there (the old store) in the mid 90s when you sold me the old shop Velodyne.

[jr59]

I heard a rumor, not substantiated, that the rent on the new space was $1/year. Historic site, owned by town, etc.

Greg spoke with me this summer. He said that things were tough. He apologized for any past misunderstandings between us. He complimented me on holding the Bethel Spring Series for so long, said it really impacted his shop. The feeling I got was that he had come to peace with something and I was just a beneficiary of that epiphany.

I wasn't able to visit the new shop, but I was a customer at his old one. I even bought my trio of HED wheels back in 2010 - the Bastognes, Jet 6/9, and Stinger 6s - from him.


If this is so, IMO: there is a lot more to this story than what we are getting.

[oldpotatoe]

Isn't collusion only an issue if you're on the supply side?

E.x. it was collusion & anti-competitive behavior when Apple and the big publishing houses ganged up to try and raise bike prices.

But it's not collusion if everyone on Paceline agrees to boycott parts ordered from QBP.

In any case I'm 38.. I've only bought one road bike & one MTB complete in my life. I really don't think buying a frame & building it up is dead in any way at all or is only for old guys.

And it's not like it has to be bespoke.. I've had 2 Giants that I built up from framesets, a Trek, etc.. the only one of the bikes that wasn't a stock "big bike co." frame was my Serotta.

What is dead is that if you want a brand new current modely year frame at a good price you're not going to get it from the big companies since they refuse to sell anything but the most expensive $3k+ made in china stuff as frame only. (E.x. Trek 6, Specialized S-works, etc..) All my stuff was mostly the LBS had a frame that hadn't sold and it was a couple years old and things worked out at a decent price.

Places that deal in commerce can't get together and force anybody, to do anything. I had this explained to me by the guy that sits in the big chair at QBP, Steve Flagg..when I mentioned that the big distributors ought to band together and approach shimano or Campagnolo about the MO 'problem'..

A bunch of consumers can do whatever they want.

[oldpotatoe]

I don't know if this still happens but I remember that a lot of LBS's wouldn't install parts that a customer had bought from Ribble, Chain Reaction etc. If I owned an LBS I'd happily install them for customers - may be with a premium, maybe not. But cash in the door is still cash in the door.

And I'll bet the rent for that flash railway premises was a factor in the closure.

Even some in the republic wouldn't install parts bought elsewhere. DUM. Yes I know, if the local car dealer was working on my starter, and I bought one online and asked them to install, I'd probably get the heave-ho...but as a LBS owner, I installed readily, and charged for it, and if the part was wrong or broke, would not swap or warranty it.

Rent and labor are two HUGE parts of a biz fixed expenses. The largest two.

I know a local shop who is paying north of $11,000 PER MONTH for rent, that's a lot of low margin, Giants...they are for sale too.

[carpediemracing]

Aki: when did you stop working at the shop? I remember seeing you there (the old store) in the mid 90s when you sold me the old shop Velodyne.

I never worked at Bethel. When you got the shop Velodyne I was working at Better Bicycle Center in Stamford. The Better Bicycle Center team started the Series.

Actually did you get it? I think you did. Bob and I delivered it, then I almost died in Central Park and you had to get your car out of long term parking just to try and find me.

[djg21]

I never worked at Bethel. When you got the shop Velodyne I was working at Better Bicycle Center in Stamford. The Better Bicycle Center team started the Series.



Actually did you get it? I think you did. Bob and I delivered it, then I almost died in Central Park and you had to get your car out of long term parking just to try and find me.



I did buy the Velodyne and used it until 2005.



I recall Bob and I going out on our bikes and riding around the park looking for you pretty late in the evening from my apartment after the "pack" ride wound down and you didn't make your way back to my place. That was when I first moved into the city in 1991-92. I really miss those rides. They were one of the best things about living in the city.



I though it was Bethel Bicycles that sponsored your old Carpe Diem team. That was a very long time ago!

[nicrump]

Shops like Vecchio's, that starts with a frame(like Moots) and builds it is common in Boulder and elsewhere. I think it depends on shop location and the frame. None of the big boy frame makers, Crumpton, Seven, Moots, etc, sell complete bikes. Economy of scale, knowing your market, etc. what I think is disappearing is $10,000 treks and spec-Eds.


75% of my sales are complete bikes. i also am a much smaller one man entity doing less than 40 total units per year. not even close to a Moots or Seven.

[summilux]

75% of my sales are complete bikes. i also am a much smaller one man entity doing less than 40 total units per year. not even close to a Moots or Seven.

I am really surprised at this. I had always assumed that if your were in the custom frame market you had been around bikes long enough to know how to wrench and like doing it. I guess that's just me and once again I'm in the minority opinion.

[feta99]

Regarding the dying LBS, are bike stores that sell Specialized feeling the pinch from online sales? I think Specialized equipment(shoes, saddles, tires) are the only things I absolutely need to buy from a bike store.

[jlwdm]

I am really surprised at this. I had always assumed that if your were in the custom frame market you had been around bikes long enough to know how to wrench and like doing it. I guess that's just me and once again I'm in the minority opinion.

Cycling takes a lot of time. Buyers of expensive bike are often working a lot. The value of a buyer's time can lead to the purchase of a complete bike. This is especially true if you are working with a builder like Crumpton who I would think would provide excellent advice on the build.

Sounds like I am talking myself into a new bike.

Jeff

[SPOKE]

Cycling takes a lot of time. Buyers of expensive bike are often working a lot. The value of a buyer's time can lead to the purchase of a complete bike. This is especially true if you are working with a builder like Crumpton who I would think would provide excellent advice on the build.

Sounds like I am talking myself into a new bike.

Jeff

There are also rogue wrenches like myself that do the assembly and repairs for the folks that fit this demographic. Doctors & lawyers pay me good money to keep their stuff working well.....all work done by me in my garage😜

[carpediemracing]

I did buy the Velodyne and used it until 2005.

I recall Bob and I going out on our bikes and riding around the park looking for you pretty late in the evening from my apartment after the "pack" ride wound down and you didn't make your way back to my place. That was when I first moved into the city in 1991-92. I really miss those rides. They were one of the best things about living in the city.

I though it was Bethel Bicycles that sponsored your old Carpe Diem team. That was a very long time ago!

Getting lost in the City was historic for me.

http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.com/2007/07/story-lost-in-city.html

[Joachim]

There are also rogue wrenches like myself that do the assembly and repairs for the folks that fit this demographic. Doctors & lawyers pay me good money to keep their stuff working well.....all work done by me in my garage😜

Do poor doctors get a discount if they bring snacks? :)

[SPOKE]

Do poor doctors get a discount if they bring snacks? :)

Yes! Apple cheesecake or home made mac&cheese👍

[djg21]

Getting lost in the City was historic for me.



http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.com/2007/07/story-lost-in-city.html


I want to play myself in the movie!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[gasman]

Getting lost in the City was historic for me.

http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.com/2007/07/story-lost-in-city.html

That blog made my day ! And I'm glad you made it home.

[velomonkey]

Just saw my sister in law who is opening a vietnamese restaurant in Bethal - she knew of the shop, said the location was pristine and knew the owner was blaming the internet. This woman immigrated from Vietnam and has 2 kids and knows nothing of bikes - she also said the locals think the owner is terse and rude.

I'm inclined to think the internet - in this case - is a covenant excuse.

[Mr. Pink]

This discussion has quickly turned to LBS vs internet, but, since I live down the road from this shop, I think it failed simply due to competition from a new shop in Ridgefield that grabbed a lot of his business. Simple. Bethel has less money than Ridgefield, harder to get to.

And, yes, not the warmest and cuddliest owner and employees.

[Steelman]

This discussion has quickly turned to LBS vs internet, but, since I live down the road from this shop, I think it failed simply due to competition from a new shop in Ridgefield that grabbed a lot of his business. Simple. Bethel has less money than Ridgefield, harder to get to.

And, yes, not the warmest and cuddliest owner and employees.

Perhaps the mixed reviews are evidence of this:

https://www.google.ca/?gws_rd=ssl#q=bethel+cycle+review&lrd=0x89e7fe51891f539d:0x71a48685571443d6,1

[oldpotatoe]

There are also rogue wrenches like myself that do the assembly and repairs for the folks that fit this demographic. Doctors & lawyers pay me good money to keep their stuff working well.....all work done by me in my garage😜

Samo..

[numbskull]

Getting lost in the City was historic for me.

http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.com/2007/07/story-lost-in-city.html

Fun read.
Thanks.

[shovelhd]

I want to play myself in the movie!

What were you reading?

[fuzzalow]

Don't know the shop. Don't know the balance sheet and finances. Don't know the approach, methods and attitude of the owner in defining and running his business. Therefore it is of dubious value and validity for me to comment on this business's demise.

I do know it will cease as an ongoing business concern and possibly some folks took a bruising in its failure. Blaming anything over what caused a failure usually is nothing more than an oversimplification and worthless. The details matter and of these we can never know.

Too bad about the shop. But in consideration of how they failed to sustain themselves as relevant to the clientele and the community that they attempted to serve, I not sure all that many will shed a tear.

[weisan]

>>Doctors & lawyers pay me good money to keep their stuff working well.

Bloody hell, I must have gotten with the wrong group of doc & att.
They made me do it for free...no wait! Isn't that the real test whether they are true doc & att. or they just play one online?? :cool:
Meh...these are all my pals...:D

[Cicli]

There are also rogue wrenches like myself that do the assembly and repairs for the folks that fit this demographic. Doctors & lawyers pay me good money to keep their stuff working well.....all work done by me in my garage😜

This is why I work on my own bikes and dont work in a bike shop for a living. I have spent alot of time working in shops as a hobby though. Many bike shop customers are a royal pain in the ass. Always wanting a discount or not wanting to pay full pop for a service. This is why these people search out a "rogue mechanic" such as yourself, they are a pain in the ass to the shop and cant get what they want for how much the want to pay. They think they are doing the shop a favor by even showing up even if they dont buy anything. Now they are at your house, getting work at a discount price. They think they are getting one over on the shop. The "I'll show them" attitude. I personally dont want these people hanging around waiting for their bike. I dont want to deal with them.

[oldpotatoe]

This is why I work on my own bikes and dont work in a bike shop for a living. I have spent alot of time working in shops as a hobby though. Many bike shop customers are a royal pain in the ass. Always wanting a discount or not wanting to pay full pop for a service. This is why these people search out a "rogue mechanic" such as yourself, they are a pain in the ass to the shop and cant get what they want for how much the want to pay. They think they are doing the shop a favor by even showing up even if they dont buy anything. Now they are at your house, getting work at a discount price. They think they are getting one over on the shop. The "I'll show them" attitude. I personally dont want these people hanging around waiting for their bike. I dont want to deal with them.

Funny, and yes, true-ish. In the shop I owned we had a 'list' of PITA customers, who did lots of above. We always talked about having a shop party, with just them, And they could stand around and think, 'gee these people are such arse-holes'..:D

But I don't discount much in my shop at home. More a recognition of my expenses, which are less than the 'retail' shop. Also a lot of what I 'buy' as parts, are retail priced cuz w/o a store front, distributor buying is hard/impossible.

But I do it cuz I enjoy it. I just fixed 2 Jamis MTBs..to say they were 'rough' is an understatement. But even those, I enjoyed it. Miss the 'bike' part of the bike biz, not the 'biz' part-at all.

[fuzzalow]

This is why I work on my own bikes and dont work in a bike shop for a living. I have spent alot of time working in shops as a hobby though. Many bike shop customers are a royal pain in the ass. Always wanting a discount or not wanting to pay full pop for a service. This is why these people search out a "rogue mechanic" such as yourself, they are a pain in the ass to the shop and cant get what they want for how much the want to pay. They think they are doing the shop a favor by even showing up even if they dont buy anything. Now they are at your house, getting work at a discount price. They think they are getting one over on the shop. The "I'll show them" attitude. I personally dont want these people hanging around waiting for their bike. I dont want to deal with them.

I don't disagree with much of what is said here. I think most self-absorbed consumers are a PITA. Frankly, in looking at the bigger picture of coddled and cajoled first world consumerism, these type of dumb asses were cultivated and manipulated to be just what they turned out to be. Which doesn't make them blameless but does rationalize the behaviour.

In fairness, many shops as well as the mechanics that work for them are lower wage workers and lack knowledge, skills and professionalism. They got their own little subculture going. So it is not surprising that when shops such as these revel in their own little dramas that elevate themselves above their clients, these customers get fed up with being bit players in bad theater and take their business elsewhere.

[peanutgallery]

I want an invite to the party:) good stuff

Funny, and yes, true-ish. In the shop I owned we had a 'list' of PITA customers, who did lots of above. We always talked about having a shop party, with just them, And they could stand around and think, 'gee these people are such arse-holes'..:D

But I don't discount much in my shop at home. More a recognition of my expenses, which are less than the 'retail' shop. Also a lot of what I 'buy' as parts, are retail priced cuz w/o a store front, distributor buying is hard/impossible.

But I do it cuz I enjoy it. I just fixed 2 Jamis MTBs..to say they were 'rough' is an understatement. But even those, I enjoyed it. Miss the 'bike' part of the bike biz, not the 'biz' part-at all.

[buddybikes]

Used to have a repair "rebuild" clinic in our bicycle club. Once a week we had over 1 or 2 people, completel dismantle their bike down to bare frame, polish it, then rebuild. Spent about 3 hours. Met more than one woman that way. In fact that is how I met my wife, at a ride, asking her if she would like her bike overhauled. Which we did, but in 2 months, we ordered her a Bruce Gordon Chinook with custom parts. Now that bike is our daughters.

For you single guys, easiest way to a girls heart!!!!

[Avincent52]

Used to have a repair "rebuild" clinic in our bicycle club. Once a week we had over 1 or 2 people, completel dismantle their bike down to bare frame, polish it, then rebuild. Spent about 3 hours. Met more than one woman that way. In fact that is how I met my wife, at a ride, asking her if she would like her bike overhauled. Which we did, but in 2 months, we ordered her a Bruce Gordon Chinook with custom parts. Now that bike is our daughters.

For you single guys, easiest way to a girls heart!!!!

That's a sweet story.

[cfox]

This is why I work on my own bikes and dont work in a bike shop for a living. I have spent alot of time working in shops as a hobby though. Many bike shop customers are a royal pain in the ass. Always wanting a discount or not wanting to pay full pop for a service. This is why these people search out a "rogue mechanic" such as yourself, they are a pain in the ass to the shop and cant get what they want for how much the want to pay. They think they are doing the shop a favor by even showing up even if they dont buy anything. Now they are at your house, getting work at a discount price. They think they are getting one over on the shop. The "I'll show them" attitude. I personally dont want these people hanging around waiting for their bike. I dont want to deal with them.


So if someone has their bike fixed by someone other than a bike shop, that means they are automatically a pain in the ass customer that wants to stick it to the bike shop?? Maybe the "rogue" provides better, faster service than the shop. I didn't read that the rogue was giving discounts...maybe he charges a premium. There exists a disconnect between bike shops and their customers that may explain the "attitude" on both sides. The question is, who started it? PITA customers or stuck-up bike shop dudes?

I think a free-lance mech could do quite well in the Bethel area. There are tons of cyclists around here, something will need to fill the void.

[SPOKE]

This is why I work on my own bikes and dont work in a bike shop for a living. I have spent alot of time working in shops as a hobby though. Many bike shop customers are a royal pain in the ass. Always wanting a discount or not wanting to pay full pop for a service. This is why these people search out a "rogue mechanic" such as yourself, they are a pain in the ass to the shop and cant get what they want for how much the want to pay. They think they are doing the shop a favor by even showing up even if they dont buy anything. Now they are at your house, getting work at a discount price. They think they are getting one over on the shop. The "I'll show them" attitude. I personally dont want these people hanging around waiting for their bike. I dont want to deal with them.

Really it comes down to the fact that they trust me to do the work correctly without any drama. Most of my customers have multiple bikes and don't mind if they have to leave a bike with me for a few days. Also, I don't do work for those pain in the ass folks. Life is too short for that. When you work from home you have much more control over who you choose to to business with. I have a very rewarding full-time career so I don't need to repair bikes to make a living. I choose to do this because I enjoy it.

[Cicli]

Really it comes down to the fact that they trust me to do the work correctly without any drama. Most of my customers have multiple bikes and don't mind if they have to leave a bike with me for a few days. Also, I don't do work for those pain in the ass folks. Life is too short for that. When you work from home you have much more control over who you choose to to business with. I have a very rewarding full-time career so I don't need to repair bikes to make a living. I choose to do this because I enjoy it.

Right on. With the right customer base it could be fun.

[Cicli]

The question is, who started it? PITA customers or stuck-up bike shop dudes?



Yes.;)

[Joachim]

Really it comes down to the fact that they trust me to do the work correctly without any drama. Most of my customers have multiple bikes and don't mind if they have to leave a bike with me for a few days. Also, I don't do work for those pain in the ass folks. Life is too short for that. When you work from home you have much more control over who you choose to to business with. I have a very rewarding full-time career so I don't need to repair bikes to make a living. I choose to do this because I enjoy it.

And all the Mac n cheese you can eat. It's a vegetable in the south after all.

[Burnette]

I'm an auto enthusiast as well as a cyclist and on auto forums I frequent, anti car dealer rants are epic. The reasons why people hate to go to car dealerships paralell why they hate to go to local bike shops.
At auto dealers you can find salesman with little knowledge of what they sell, mechanics with a wide range of skill level from very good to very bad and at most, when it ocmes down to talking money, you are of course on opposite ends of the deal and that interaction has huge potential to suck.
I'm in car buying mode and went to two dealerships in Winston-Salem, NC and drove 100 miles to another in Fayetteville, NC and of the three, two really blowed. Didn't now their product and gave me the run around.
Talk bad about today's consumer if you want, but some of us, with the aid of the internet and through our own experience, we know what we want, what the monetary values are and we want work done for a fair price and done right. And don't treat us like a brother in-law going into your refridgerator.
SPOKE, if I lived close to you, you would get all my work. In this day and age, service only shops and independent machanics are the future. I can get parts cheaper than store fronts. I just need someone with more skill and tools to do some work I can't.

[Red Tornado]

#1 Reason I do not frequent my local shops much these days is "Campagnolo no longer spoken here". There are about a dozen of us in the area that still, and will continue to, use Campy groups. Since the demise of our "racer oriented" shop, all the guys that knew it and had the tools pulled up roots and moved on when that shop closed. I can understand this and have no ill will towards the shops in town, since it's not a brand they're pushing, but it's wierd when mechanics look at you like you're on drugs because you ask about Campy..... In fact, we still get funny looks at group rides because we aren't using one of the "S" brands are priceless - only from a few individuals, tho. Kind of the "why aren't you running Shimano or SRAM like everyone else" vibe.
#2 reason is they don't stock the brands I prefer. Understand most of the major component manufacturers make good product, and I could switch to what locals keep in inventory, but after 24 years I have my preferences. I will be flexible on things like tubes, tail lights, socks, maybe tires. Major items though, I want what I want. Yeah, I know sounds selfish. Sometimes they will order it for me, and sometimes they won't (Campy or other item/manuf combo's). Again, no hard feelings. Understand they can't stock and/or obtain everything. But it's my money and I will use the stuff I like. If I can't get it locally, which would be my preference, I will go elsewhere.

[djg21]

#1 Reason I do not frequent my local shops much these days is "Campagnolo no longer spoken here". There are about a dozen of us in the area that still, and will continue to, use Campy groups. Since the demise of our "racer oriented" shop, all the guys that knew it and had the tools pulled up roots and moved on when that shop closed. I can understand this and have no ill will towards the shops in town, since it's not a brand they're pushing, but it's wierd when mechanics look at you like you're on drugs because you ask about Campy..... In fact, we still get funny looks at group rides because we aren't using one of the "S" brands are priceless - only from a few individuals, tho. Kind of the "why aren't you running Shimano or SRAM like everyone else" vibe.
#2 reason is they don't stock the brands I prefer. Understand most of the major component manufacturers make good product, and I could switch to what locals keep in inventory, but after 24 years I have my preferences. I will be flexible on things like tubes, tail lights, socks, maybe tires. Major items though, I want what I want. Yeah, I know sounds selfish. Sometimes they will order it for me, and sometimes they won't (Campy or other item/manuf combo's). Again, no hard feelings. Understand they can't stock and/or obtain everything. But it's my money and I will use the stuff I like. If I can't get it locally, which would be my preference, I will go elsewhere.

IMO, it unfair to expect a LBS to stock stuff that can be sold only to enthusiasts, or for which there is little demand. The costs associated with maintaining an extensive inventory are too expensive for many small shops to bear. But virtually everything, including bikes, may be ordered pretty quickly and shipped in days, if not overnight. I'll gladly pay an extra 10% for parts if it means the shop is there when I'm in a pinch and really do need something.

[peanutgallery]

Campagnolo is still in business? Seriously, I feel like they've given up on the usa market

Kinda like owning a renault and complaining that you can't get brake pads or oil filters at auto zone. Onus is on you to order and wait by the mailbox for stuff. Gotta side with the shop on this


#1 Reason I do not frequent my local shops much these days is "Campagnolo no longer spoken here". There are about a dozen of us in the area that still, and will continue to, use Campy groups. Since the demise of our "racer oriented" shop, all the guys that knew it and had the tools pulled up roots and moved on when that shop closed. I can understand this and have no ill will towards the shops in town, since it's not a brand they're pushing, but it's wierd when mechanics look at you like you're on drugs because you ask about Campy..... In fact, we still get funny looks at group rides because we aren't using one of the "S" brands are priceless - only from a few individuals, tho. Kind of the "why aren't you running Shimano or SRAM like everyone else" vibe.
#2 reason is they don't stock the brands I prefer. Understand most of the major component manufacturers make good product, and I could switch to what locals keep in inventory, but after 24 years I have my preferences. I will be flexible on things like tubes, tail lights, socks, maybe tires. Major items though, I want what I want. Yeah, I know sounds selfish. Sometimes they will order it for me, and sometimes they won't (Campy or other item/manuf combo's). Again, no hard feelings. Understand they can't stock and/or obtain everything. But it's my money and I will use the stuff I like. If I can't get it locally, which would be my preference, I will go elsewhere.

[wolfstone636]

I try to support my LBS by buying all my supplies, tires, degreasers etc from them. whatever they dont have, they will order and they usually match prices.

[oldpotatoe]

IMO, it unfair to expect a LBS to stock stuff that can be sold only to enthusiasts, or for which there is little demand. The costs associated with maintaining an extensive inventory are too expensive for many small shops to bear. But virtually everything, including bikes, may be ordered pretty quickly and shipped in days, if not overnight. I'll gladly pay an extra 10% for parts if it means the shop is there when I'm in a pinch and really do need something.

Don't agree. Easy to stock the 2 best brand consumables. Cogsets, chains, break pads, cables. Campagnolo and shimano. If you need spam just use shimano.

[oldpotatoe]

I try to support my LBS by buying all my supplies, tires, degreasers etc from them. whatever they dont have, they will order and they usually match prices.

And when they do, they lose money.

[Cicli]

I try to support my LBS by buying all my supplies, tires, degreasers etc from them. whatever they dont have, they will order and they usually match prices.

A brick and mortar store cant pay rent if they match internet prices. You are not doing them any favors.

[oldpotatoe]

Campagnolo is still in business? Seriously, I feel like they've given up on the usa market

Kinda like owning a renault and complaining that you can't get brake pads or oil filters at auto zone. Onus is on you to order and wait by the mailbox for stuff. Gotta side with the shop on this

Far more distributors sell Campagnolo than shimano, in the US. If a bike shop can't figure out how to find/stock/work on Campag, then they are being lazy. Small numbers yes, but if all that small numbers riders come to one place, big numbers for them. Rather than like Renault, more like Porsche or Ducati.

Even in Boulder, 20 some bike shops, being the Campagnolo Pro Shop was easy. Even the designated 'pro shops' came to Vecchio's for advice and parts.

[ftf]

Far more distributors sell Campagnolo than shimano, in the US. If a bike shop can't figure out how to find/stock/work on Campag, then they are being lazy. Small numbers yes, but if all that small numbers riders come to one place, big numbers for them. Rather than like Renault, more like Porsche or Ducati.

Even in Boulder, 20 some bike shops, being the Campagnolo Pro Shop was easy. Even the designated 'pro shops' came to Vecchio's for advice and parts.

To be fair everyone knows that vecchios is THE place to go for campy in Boulder.

[SPOKE]

Every time I see a post about an LBS that doesn't speak Campy I just have to chuckle........😎 It's just derailleurs & brifters for crying out loud! Very few shops stock much in the way of the high end parts anyway.

[oldpotatoe]

To be fair everyone knows that vecchios is THE place to go for campy in Boulder.

Well sure but depending on locale, not hard to become the shop in an area that 'qui si parla Campagnolo'. Yup, takes some commitment but having that focus is not hard. If I ever started a one man store again I'd be Campagnolo only. All it has to do is break even.

[Red Tornado]

IMO, it unfair to expect a LBS to stock stuff that can be sold only to enthusiasts, or for which there is little demand. The costs associated with maintaining an extensive inventory are too expensive for many small shops to bear. But virtually everything, including bikes, may be ordered pretty quickly and shipped in days, if not overnight. I'll gladly pay an extra 10% for parts if it means the shop is there when I'm in a pinch and really do need something.
Read my post again. Never said I expected them to stock everything, or the stuff I prefer. I understand there are limits and I will sub on occasion or have them order it if they can/will. My pref is to buy local. But if they cant/wont order something that I want, I will go elsewhere. No hard feelin's.

[Red Tornado]

Campagnolo is still in business? Seriously, I feel like they've given up on the usa market

Kinda like owning a renault and complaining that you can't get brake pads or oil filters at auto zone. Onus is on you to order and wait by the mailbox for stuff. Gotta side with the shop on this
And that's what us dozen or so guys do. Always hoped our area would have one of the older wrenches around that could workon it. Kinda sad really.

[wolfstone636]

My local Shop tells me that he pays the rent on the money he makes by servicing bikes. Merchandise is just a loss leader to get the customer in the door.

[djg21]

Read my post again. Never said I expected them to stock everything, or the stuff I prefer. I understand there are limits and I will sub on occasion or have them order it if they can/will. My pref is to buy local. But if they cant/wont order something that I want, I will go elsewhere. No hard feelin's.

I wasn't criticizing you. I was speaking more generally. My local shop stocks very little in terms of higher-end componentry and very few bikes. There is no need to, as it does fits and can sell this stuff out of catalogues, and have it within days. If it carries inventory, it gets stuck.

FWIW, I agree with your approach. I virtually always give my LBS an opportunity first, and only order online if the shop cannot get the stuff in a reasonable time or I'm in a pinch.

[summilux]

Well sure but depending on locale, not hard to become the shop in an area that 'qui si parla Campagnolo'. Yup, takes some commitment but having that focus is not hard. If I ever started a one man store again I'd be Campagnolo only. All it has to do is break even.

No bike shop that is going out of business would have been saved if it was a Campy shop. Not one.

I'd love to see a Campy only shop though. Especially if it stocked Veloflex, FMB, Dromarti and some of those nice Silca pumps. Kinda reminds me of that old joke:
Q: How do you make a small fortune in a Campagnolo bike shop
A: Start with a large one

[Ti Designs]

To be fair everyone knows that vecchios is THE place to go for campy in Boulder.

Which begs the question: Why can't other shops establish themselves as THE place for Campy in their area? The big brands have had the smarts to establish their own super stores in key markets - a huge Cannondale shop opened a few miles from us. If Campy is serious about the US market, they should follow the same plan and establish Campy shops in key markets. My shop is large - we're considered the 400 pound gorilla in the market, yet with 1400 bikes built on our sales floor we have 3 with Campy equipment.

[peanutgallery]

There's like 4 US employees and probably 2% of the market, no interest from the company

sad but true

Which begs the question: Why can't other shops establish themselves as THE place for Campy in their area? The big brands have had the smarts to establish their own super stores in key markets - a huge Cannondale shop opened a few miles from us. If Campy is serious about the US market, they should follow the same plan and establish Campy shops in key markets. My shop is large - we're considered the 400 pound gorilla in the market, yet with 1400 bikes built on our sales floor we have 3 with Campy equipment.

[audiisaac]

H


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[oldpotatoe]

No bike shop that is going out of business would have been saved if it was a Campy shop. Not one.

I'd love to see a Campy only shop though. Especially if it stocked Veloflex, FMB, Dromarti and some of those nice Silca pumps. Kinda reminds me of that old joke:
Q: How do you make a small fortune in a Campagnolo bike shop
A: Start with a large one

Never said it would. I said it's not that hard to identify an underserved niche, Campagnolo shop, and slide into that role. As for a Campagnolo only shop and sell shoes, black hole for $. Veloflex? Nope too expensive, certainly not FMB, no distributor. I'd stock Vittoria only.

And that fortune comment is true about any bid shop. Probably more do for a shimano/spam one cuz that's what most are.

[oldpotatoe]

Which begs the question: Why can't other shops establish themselves as THE place for Campy in their area? The big brands have had the smarts to establish their own super stores in key markets - a huge Cannondale shop opened a few miles from us. If Campy is serious about the US market, they should follow the same plan and establish Campy shops in key markets. My shop is large - we're considered the 400 pound gorilla in the market, yet with 1400 bikes built on our sales floor we have 3 with Campy equipment.

What's a 'Campy shop' established by Campy?. They do certify 'Pro Shops', is your shop one Ti?

[OtayBW]

There is a small shop that opened in Baltimore a few years ago that specializes in Campy (http://www.servicecoursecycle.com/home.html). Jason Wright always surprises me with what he's got in stock, and he does good work. He pops in here now and again. A great place and a huge welcome addition, in my book....

[summilux]

I said it's not that hard to identify an underserved niche, Campagnolo shop, and slide into that role.

I need to get to the Republic. Here in Ottawa, that niche would be you, me and like ten other guys.

[r_mutt]

Getting lost in the City was historic for me.

http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.com/2007/07/story-lost-in-city.html


really great story aki!

[Ti Designs]

What's a 'Campy shop' established by Campy?. They do certify 'Pro Shops', is your shop one Ti?

Wheelworks is listed as a Campy pro shop, but I had to look that up to find out. There really is no attempt to establish shops that are go-to Campy shops.

[velomonkey]

Any given shop that isn't proficient in campy is not a bike shop. It's a shop that happens to sell bikes.

[oldpotatoe]

Wheelworks is listed as a Campy pro shop, but I had to look that up to find out. There really is no attempt to establish shops that are go-to Campy shops.

Campagnolo NA can help but it's up to the owner.

[Ti Designs]

Any given shop that isn't proficient in campy is not a bike shop. It's a shop that happens to sell bikes.

There are a whole lot of non-bike shops out there...

When you say proficient, are we talking current product, or does this go back a few decades? I can think of a few people who know current product, I know the Nuovo Record era stuff as well as anyone, there are maybe a dozen people who really know that whole range. To be perfectly honest, we have a really hard time hiring mechanics who know how to work on the older stuff, but there's still a demand for that service (damn stuff won't wear out!) Mechanics learn about Shimano stuff, or they learn about sealed bearings. Bring a wheel with a Nuovo Record front hub into a shop to be repacked and there's a better than even chance that it comes back with 3/16" bearings (4 out of the 5 big shops in the Boston area did exactly that, only Sheldon Brown got it right)

[peanutgallery]

I will say this nicely, its a naive thought to say that about a shop

At 2% or less of the market, why should a shop even bother. There's no dealer or oem support and why try to compete with a niche product that some grizzled old guy is just going to buy from overseas anyways? There's absolutely no point. It would take all 4 campy north america employees the better part of a decade to support and certify 100 dealers, they have officially missed the boat. Not like campy usa is really or setting the world on fire. I've owned more than my share of campy and have always had a soft spot but they are kind of done for a myriad of reasons, I've given up

If to buy campy, great and more power to you - but they've all but abandoned the american consumer. Be prepared to do everything yourself and buy all the tools. If a shop takes an interest in campy it is almost at their peril

I suggest you buy each local mechanic a 6 pack and apologize for even having this thought :) He is captive of what generates income and works hard at it. The whim of a miniscule part of the market doesn't pay the bills.


Any given shop that isn't proficient in campy is not a bike shop. It's a shop that happens to sell bikes.

[AngryScientist]

Any given shop that isn't proficient in campy is not a bike shop. It's a shop that happens to sell bikes.

agree 100%, and i'll take it a step further. any "mechanic" that cant work on campy stuff is not a "mechanic" at all, he's a retail employee that can put bicycles together and change a tube here and there.

i'm laughing at the responses in this thread. this is bike stuff we're talking about, there is nothing special about campy parts. if you're a good mechanic, you "get" how stuff works and can work on ANY bike that comes through the door, period. campy, shimano, suntour, sram - doesnt matter, it's all just bike stuff, and it's all pretty damned simple, really.


the tool investment is minimal.

[fuzzalow]

Not like campy usa is really or setting the world on fire. I've owned more than my share of campy and have always had a soft spot but they are kind of done for a myriad of reasons, I've given up

If to buy campy, great and more power to you - but they've all but abandoned the american consumer. Be prepared to do everything yourself and buy all the tools. If a shop takes an interest in campy it is almost at their peril

All your opinion, of course. Baseless conjecture as far as "setting the world on fire" and your own personal disparagement of "kind of done for a myriad of reasons". HaHa! Well do tell...

I don't object to your attitude and dismissal of Campagnolo, that's all completely up to you and choices. But I can take issue with the lightweight of your argument to make statements like you have with nothing to back it up. Even talkin' your post as a point of conversation with no hostility or rancour, there's nuthin' there. Where's the beef?

C'mon, give a Campagnolo devotee something to work with here.

[Burnette]

Campy (and Shimano, SRAM) talk always brings feelings into the mix, but if you can put a hand over that Campy tatoo and try to think about Campagnolos' commitment and presence in the US, you have to agree that they aren't very committted to our market and sellers of their stuff can be hard to find in some states.
Campy mechanics: well, shops are want to push what they sell, right? Shimano dominates our market, right? So if what I stated above is true, it would explain a reluctance by some shops to entertain inquiries about Campy stuff, much less working with it and the possibility of having to get stuff for it.
On a ride last year that had riders that worked at three different shops, all of them bashed Campy. I have found a Campy friendly shop with a mechanic who actually has a Campy tatoo (hence the joke above), but he is a rare bird.
I might buy Campy for my next bike due to it's ergos, but I don't see Campy as a shop saver at all. With Shimano being easier to get from so many places and for cheaper, more familiar to most, it's spec'd on most bikes, if you're going for mass numbers, there's your target maker to stock/sell, Shimano.

[velomonkey]

Campy talk always devolves to market share and lack of retailing presence.

2.4%

You know who has 2.4% of the market? BMW. BMW has 2.4% of the USA auto market. Replace all this talk with campy and put in BMW and it's comical.

The fact remains that American bike shops started to get blown out in the 90s and then it got much worse in lance mania. REI is a brand held in high regard on this forum - bring a Peg, or a Serotta into an REI and wheel it in their bike area. No one is gonna care. Plenty of retailers who sell bikes would care even less. A bunch would question why you even ride a frame made out of metal.

[jlwdm]

Velomonkey, REI might be held in high regard on this forum but I don't think that is true as a bike shop. I would never consider taking a bike to REI to be worked on. REI bike areas to me just look like bike accessory sales areas with out any employees that know anything about bikes.

I was in Scottsdale the last three days and went to my three favorite bike shops there. Each one of these shops would appreciate a great steel frame. Bicycle Haus has a Merckx track bike on display.

Bicycle Haus built a brand new cool looking building and has great bikes, clothes and accessories catering to the high end. Their shop kit is by Assos. Go to the website to see the new building.

http://bicyclehaus.com/

All product is displayed in an organized and easy to find manner. Here is a shot of some of the kit.

http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m617/6ridge9/Bicycle%20Haus.jpg (http://s1134.photobucket.com/user/6ridge9/media/Bicycle%20Haus.jpg.html)

Cyclogic is not a traditional bike shop but now has a retail area. There niche is fit. Paraic is involved in teaching fit around the country and the world and the shop is all about Fit.

Airpark Bike moved into a new store three years ago and the market in the area is shifting to more mountain biking with all of the new great trails in the area. But you have to love a shop with this work area and this huge mural:

http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m617/6ridge9/Airpark%20Campy.jpg (http://s1134.photobucket.com/user/6ridge9/media/Airpark%20Campy.jpg.html)

http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m617/6ridge9/Airpark%20Mural.jpg (http://s1134.photobucket.com/user/6ridge9/media/Airpark%20Mural.jpg.html)

I have a couple of great Campy shops in DFW also.

Jeff

[Ronsonic]

Funny, and yes, true-ish. In the shop I owned we had a 'list' of PITA customers, who did lots of above. We always talked about having a shop party, with just them, And they could stand around and think, 'gee these people are such arse-holes'..:D



So this guy's in the lobby on the cell phone talking to someone about how those bastards screwed up the damn upholstery on his jet, you can see the stitches in one of the seats, yeah can you believe it ....

Gets off the phone and wants to haggle with us about the price of repairing his second-tier 1970s Pioneer receiver.

We keep threatening to declare it Customer Depreciation Day. But we'd probably be out of business the next.

[cfox]

This doesn't add a whole lot, but since we are discussing it...the bike shop in question here was a "Campy" shop, and the owner, Greg, always preferred Campy on his bikes. A few years back he wrote a long term review of Record, Red, and Dura Ace. It was on their old website, not sure if it migrated to the new one. It was a pretty good read. He liked the Record best.

It's a shame they are closing, but again, not surprising to me. Greg is an incredible athlete, just not very friendly at all. Ice cold vibe in that shop. Like I and someone else mentioned, a (much) friendlier, broader scoped shop opened a few years ago, and I suspect they took a lot of business.

[oldpotatoe]

Campy (and Shimano, SRAM) talk always brings feelings into the mix, but if you can put a hand over that Campy tatoo and try to think about Campagnolos' commitment and presence in the US, you have to agree that they aren't very committted to our market and sellers of their stuff can be hard to find in some states.
Campy mechanics: well, shops are want to push what they sell, right? Shimano dominates our market, right? So if what I stated above is true, it would explain a reluctance by some shops to entertain inquiries about Campy stuff, much less working with it and the possibility of having to get stuff for it.
On a ride last year that had riders that worked at three different shops, all of them bashed Campy. I have found a Campy friendly shop with a mechanic who actually has a Campy tatoo (hence the joke above), but he is a rare bird.
I might buy Campy for my next bike due to it's ergos, but I don't see Campy as a shop saver at all. With Shimano being easier to get from so many places and for cheaper, more familiar to most, it's spec'd on most bikes, if you're going for mass numbers, there's your target maker to stock/sell, Shimano.

And there are more Toyota dealers than Audi dealers. Why bash it? Plus I think 'shops that speak Campagnolo' and 'saving a shop' are being mixed up here.

Many distributors of Campagnolo products(more than shimano in the US), easy to find stuff, easy to work on. Print and video tutorials abound. Campagnolo NA has a "ProShop" certification program. shimano/spam doesn't. Except for guys who rep distributors who sell sram, I have never seen a sram tech guy on the road. I know the Campagnolo and shimano guy well.

In unique places, you could do a Campagnolo only shop, just like you could sell only Ducatis or Aprillas. BUT, regardless of whether the shop needs to be 'saved', a 'full service bike shop', in an area that has an active bicycle scene, ought to be able to have, and service Campagnolo along with shimano and spam.

But bike shops that 'bash' Campagnolo mostly don't know it, see it, work on it. A local MO place does that, their employees do that wearing their shop kit, on group rides. They do that because of the pricing they get, not because the stuff is so great(it isn't, they warranty a BUNCH, but the employees get all sorts of next to nothing bro deals to use their crap, almost 'sponsored'). A lot of guys I know, even some who sport shimano, won't go there because of that. Ya know, a guy that works at a Japanese motorcycle 'superstore', probably says Italian and German motorcycles are 'finicky, expensive, hard to work on'..

Yes Campagnolo is small, wishes to stay that way, as is Rolex, Omega, Martin Guitars, put name of small, exclusive, premium product here.

If ya want to play a Yamaha guitar, fine and dandy, but that doesn't mean ones need to 'bash' Gibson(maybe a poor example, I know zero about guitars).

Mine-I would rather walk than have shimano on any of my bikes, and I detest anything sram.

[corky]

^ like


+ really how differenT is Campagnolo to work on than Shimano?.......not much different at al IMHO, it's just ignorance.....maybe the spares are harder to get but that is a different story.

[Burnette]

See, the problem here is when you romanticise a company, you are blind to the fact as to what is is, it's a company. And the funniest lines from two of you, saying Campy is akin to BMW/Audi versus Toyota is to totally get it wrong. The difference bewtween Shiamno and Campy products aren't as great as a Campyphile would hope. In fact, and as you already are aware, there is a majority of people who find Shimano to be in fact superior to Campy as well, here is the killer, a better value to boot.
It's not Ducati versus, Honda Motorcycles, it's bicycle components versus bicycle components and even people with money, belive it or not, can be discerning and value/performance driven and see Shimano in higher regard than Campy.
Could opening a Campy only store work? It already does, but only if it works for the immediate area and market around the shop they are serving. It wouldn't have saved the shop in the OPs first post, it would probably hastened it's demise. And it would'nt work in the area where I currently live.
As far as the shop guys bashing Campy, I chalk that up to lack of experience with the product and a prejudice against it for unkown reasons. It had no effect on me, but you see, Campy is fighting a giant in Shimano and a giant in it's absence in American cyclist minds and on spec bikes on bike shop floors.
To romanticise about Campy being OK with that is false, they aren't a wine maker happy with their lot, they want more of the market than they currently have. And they have made some very ugly cranks to prove it. Just as they will certainly make disc brakes to prove it. What they have done wrong is to continue to mismanage their presence American market.
You can open a bicycle shop and sell bicycle baubles and serve wine and go after the financially well off. Pray you have enough of those customers and kiss their tail good, because a slight dip in patronage and your shop is done, like so many others. Ribble, Wiggo and Chain Reaction will get your smarter customers, you will be left with the non buying talkers.
Personally, I could care less about a stuffy bike shop with over priced trinkets and attitude. And so would the majority of cyclist. I would take my bike to the Campy mech I know or drive a few miles and let SPOKE do it.
This forum is epic with hate rants against just that kind of snobbish bike shop. It's also full of stories about their demise.
You're trying to sell recreational equipment to well informed adults, there is no shame in acting like you know it and offering what they want at an affordable price. Cycling doesn't need off putting status symbol shops, it really only needs mass sellers and good independent mechanics.

[velomonkey]

And they have made some very ugly cranks to prove it.

I'm sorry, what, exactly, does a 4 bolt crank prove?

I'm not sure how the BMW analogy doesn't work. It's nearly to show market share and that one brand has more of a focus on a specific market type than the other brand with larger market share and a larger product offering for a broader customer base.

Understand this - no single shop can carry EVERY bike brand. With a shop, as with any business, your best bet is to be humble, polite and inclusive. Be knowledgeable about the products you sell, but also knowledgeable about the sport and have solid business acumen within your vertical. If a shop only sells Specialized with Shimano and carbon clinchers and someone walks into your shop with a steel bike, campy and hand built wheels there is still money to be made. Some shops see this, some don't.

Typically the ones that don't are the ones who go under.

[oldpotatoe]

See, the problem here is when you romanticise a company, you are blind to the fact as to what is is, it's a company. And the funniest lines from two of you, saying Campy is akin to BMW/Audi versus Toyota is to totally get it wrong. The difference bewtween Shiamno and Campy products aren't as great as a Campyphile would hope. In fact, and as you already are aware, there is a majority of people who find Shimano to be in fact superior to Campy as well, here is the killer, a better value to boot.
It's not Ducati versus, Honda Motorcycles, it's bicycle components versus bicycle components and even people with money, belive it or not, can be discerning and value/performance driven and see Shimano in higher regard than Campy.
Could opening a Campy only store work? It already does, but only if it works for the immediate area and market around the shop they are serving. It wouldn't have saved the shop in the OPs first post, it would probably hastened it's demise. And it would'nt work in the area where I currently live.
As far as the shop guys bashing Campy, I chalk that up to lack of experience with the product and a prejudice against it for unkown reasons. It had no effect on me, but you see, Campy is fighting a giant in Shimano and a giant in it's absence in American cyclist minds and on spec bikes on bike shop floors.
To romanticise about Campy being OK with that is false, they aren't a wine maker happy with their lot, they want more of the market than they currently have. And they have made some very ugly cranks to prove it. Just as they will certainly make disc brakes to prove it. What they have done wrong is to continue to mismanage their presence American market.
You can open a bicycle shop and sell bicycle baubles and serve wine and go after the financially well off. Pray you have enough of those customers and kiss their tail good, because a slight dip in patronage and your shop is done, like so many others. Ribble, Wiggo and Chain Reaction will get your smarter customers, you will be left with the non buying talkers.
Personally, I could care less about a stuffy bike shop with over priced trinkets and attitude. And so would the majority of cyclist. I would take my bike to the Campy mech I know or drive a few miles and let SPOKE do it.
This forum is epic with hate rants against just that kind of snobbish bike shop. It's also full of stories about their demise.
You're trying to sell recreational equipment to well informed adults, there is no shame in acting like you know it and offering what they want at an affordable price. Cycling doesn't need off putting status symbol shops, it really only needs mass sellers and good independent mechanics.

Not sure what you are angry about. Maybe you aren't.

I think it is VERY much like Honda and Ducati motorcycles. Very much like Rolex and Casio or Seiko. Campagnolo isn't 'fighting a giant'..shimano retires more debt each year than Campagnolo grosses. shimano is fighting sram, and vice versa. Campagnolo sits aside and watches.

Beauty and beholder is just that. I find the SR/Record/Chorus cranks really nice. As soon as I find a Chorus 172.5 at a good price, I buy it.

For ME, IMHO, and all that. I really admire the tradition and philosophy of Campagnolo. And as for a future bike shop, service is key, and economy of scale and yes, many, at least around here, frequent shops that cater to that rich cycling history, tradition. To paint it as 'just a business with no heart and soul, well, maybe to you it is..ok, press on.

[fuzzalow]

^^^ [re:Rose tinted glasses] None of this has anything to do with how or why Bethel LBS failed as a business concern. There is no singular talisman for how to run a successful business and if you believe that then on that simplicity you will fail.

You make your case with the presumption that Shimano's approach to their business is the archetype and singular strategy capable of delivering results. Results which you assume to be identical to each respective entity - selling more and expansion of market share. Written from the point of view that somehow Campagnolo secretly wishes it were Shimano. There are many ways to achieve what are likely to be different corporate goals between Campagnolo and Shimano that nuance and extend well beyond the oversimplification of selling more product.

I am Campagnolo only and will never change. I am neither apostolic about the brand nor do I care what any other cyclist uses. I do not see competition between cycling component brands in the way you do because I do not view the products as comparable. Ultimately, it is all good and all done in service of the ride.

[Burnette]

I'm in no way angry, I'm just a fact based life form. You have way too much emotion in it. "Tradition, heart and soul", at it's core Campy is a company with financial repsonsibilities. They got bills like everybody else and they know they can't beat Shimano, but they also know they must grow more to survive. You don't have to beat Shimanio, you do have to stay relevant. If you could sit in on a budget meeting at Campy it would probably make you cry. They are a business, they have to do better and they very well know it. They will follow every market whim and try to increase their market share, as they should.
You may feel "Honda vs Ducati", but that doesn't make it so. In fact, it's not. You could reverse that and have a good argument that way too. I say they are very close, the difference is in ergos, cost and availability. And for the masses, Shimano is killing it on the last two. And 105, Ultegra and Dura Ace aren't low class junk. I actually think the Dura Ace crank is better looking and the groupset as a whole has done well in comparos. Add in the super deals for all three groupsets and now you add value. You have to get that "class" thing out of it.
What I don't like about romanticising recreational equipment is that it makes you blind to reality, that there is in fact good products put out by other companies. In business, if you lead with your heart and live blindy, you will wind up in a high rent shop with high priced goods nobody wants and you will be broke. Again, Campy only would have hastened the demise of the shop in the Op's post.
I'll say too that Campyphilles do the company no serivce with passionate prose about them and misplaced disdain for Campy's competitors. For the majority of us that don't have "hear and soul" invested in a derailuer, it comes off as ignorant of the facts to the point of denial of what we all know to be true. Shimano has some pretty good stuff. Once you take facts out, you have nothing but close minded discourse.
I may get Campy on my next bike due to shifter operation (may not) and I won't tell anybody I have it unless they ask and I surely won't hold my nose or lift my head up to someone who has Shimano. That is just weird.
Campy lost their beauty along time ago and their component operation isn't leagues above Shimano, I'm sorry, it's just not.

[fuzzalow]

^ Spoken like one who thinks he knows. I am not being dismissive of your opinion, I am being dismissive of your certainty and the restrictive breadth of your interpretations. Almost to the edge as disingenuous, for the purpose as provocateur. Not well played to be obvious.

See you at the next stop.

[velomonkey]

I'm in no way angry, I'm just a fact based life form. You have way too much emotion in it. "Tradition, heart and soul", at it's core Campy is a company with financial repsonsibilities. They got bills like everybody else and they know they can't beat Shimano, but they also know they must grow more to survive. You don't have to beat Shimanio, you do have to stay relevant. If you could sit in on a budget meeting at Campy it would probably make you cry. They are a business, they have to do better and they very well know it.

My issue with the above statement is that you paint it as black and white. A company can have tradition and the intangible 'heart and soul' and still operate as a company. It does work, ya know. Also, companies are always trying to get that intangible, Rapha works hard at it and spend to achieve it and their market share isn't too high.

BTW, let's operate in details - Ribble Dura Ace $1200 - Record $1300 - Red $1300 we're not talking a significant delta.

Acura makes the NSX for 150k - BMW makes the i8 at 150k - honda has the civic, BMW has no product for that market. BMW would like Honda's market share, Honda would love BMWs allure.

If you don't think, for a second, that Shimano would love to have Campy's allure we're not having a serious conversation. Yes, Campy will work to remain relevant, but putting out a 4 bolt crank isn't a sign off anything. If they put out a low end group, outsourced to some 3rd party and made in Vietnam but with the Campy stamp then maybe, but not a 4 bolt crank or disc brakes (um, which they still haven't). And, yea, at this point Shimano is using their time on SRAM not Campy - trust me on that one, please.

[corky]

I'm in no way angry, I'm just a fact based life form. You have way too much emotion in it. "Tradition, heart and soul", at it's core Campy is a company with financial repsonsibilities. They got bills like everybody else and they know they can't beat Shimano, but they also know they must grow more to survive. You don't have to beat Shimanio, you do have to stay relevant. If you could sit in on a budget meeting at Campy it would probably make you cry. They are a business, they have to do better and they very well know it. They will follow every market whim and try to increase their market share, as they should.
You may feel "Honda vs Ducati", but that doesn't make it so. In fact, it's not. You could reverse that and have a good argument that way too. I say they are very close, the difference is in ergos, cost and availability. And for the masses, Shimano is killing it on the last two. And 105, Ultegra and Dura Ace aren't low class junk. I actually think the Dura Ace crank is better looking and the groupset as a whole has done well in comparos. Add in the super deals for all three groupsets and now you add value. You have to get that "class" thing out of it.
What I don't like about romanticising recreational equipment is that it makes you blind to reality, that there is in fact good products put out by other companies. In business, if you lead with your heart and live blindy, you will wind up in a high rent shop with high priced goods nobody wants and you will be broke. Again, Campy only would have hastened the demise of the shop in the Op's post.
I'll say too that Campyphilles do the company no serivce with passionate prose about them and misplaced disdain for Campy's competitors. For the majority of us that don't have "hear and soul" invested in a derailuer, it comes off as ignorant of the facts to the point of denial of what we all know to be true. Shimano has some pretty good stuff. Once you take facts out, you have nothing but close minded discourse.
I may get Campy on my next bike due to shifter operation (may not) and I won't tell anybody I have it unless they ask and I surely won't hold my nose or lift my head up to someone who has Shimano. That is just weird.
Campy lost their beauty along time ago and their component operation isn't leagues above Shimano, I'm sorry, it's just not.

For a fact based life form there appears to be scant amount of facts found in your post...... It appears to be opinion and conjecture..... Not that there is anything wrong with that it is a forum after all..... But accusing someone else of leaving facts out seems ...well....

Just seems you no longer care for the look of Campagnolo, which is fine but is that your definition of better?

[jlwdm]

...

You can open a bicycle shop and sell bicycle baubles and serve wine and go after the financially well off. Pray you have enough of those customers and kiss their tail good, because a slight dip in patronage and your shop is done, like so many others. Ribble, Wiggo and Chain Reaction will get your smarter customers, you will be left with the non buying talkers.
Personally, I could care less about a stuffy bike shop with over priced trinkets and attitude. ...

I don't think the UK stores get the smarter customers. The smarter customers appreciate service and that the lowest price product is not always the best buy. There are lots of advantages in supporting a local bike shop.

What makes you think a high end bike shop has to have attitude?

Jeff

[oldpotatoe]

I'm in no way angry, I'm just a fact based life form. 1-You have way too much emotion in it. "Tradition, heart and soul", at it's core Campy is a company with financial repsonsibilities. They got bills like everybody else and they know they can't beat Shimano, but they also know they must grow more to survive. You don't have to beat Shimanio, you do have to stay relevant. 2-If you could sit in on a budget meeting at Campy it would probably make you cry. They are a business, they have to do better and they very well know it. They will follow every market whim and try to increase their market share, as they should.
You may feel "Honda vs Ducati", but that doesn't make it so. In fact, it's not. You could reverse that and have a good argument that way too. I say they are very close, the difference is in ergos, cost and availability. And for the masses, Shimano is killing it on the last two. 3-And 105, Ultegra and Dura Ace aren't low class junk. I actually think the Dura Ace crank is better looking and the groupset as a whole has done well in comparos. Add in the super deals for all three groupsets and now you add value. 4-You have to get that "class" thing out of it.
What I don't like about romanticising recreational equipment is that it makes you blind to reality, that there is in fact good products put out by other companies. 5-In business, if you lead with your heart and live blindy, you will wind up in a high rent shop with high priced goods nobody wants and you will be broke. Again, Campy only would have hastened the demise of the shop in the Op's post.
6-I'll say too that Campyphilles do the company no serivce with passionate prose about them and misplaced disdain for Campy's competitors. For the majority of us that don't have "hear and soul" invested in a derailuer, it comes off as ignorant of the facts to the point of denial of what we all know to be true. 7-Shimano has some pretty good stuff. Once you take facts out, you have nothing but close minded discourse.
I may get Campy on my next bike due to shifter operation (may not) and I won't tell anybody I have it unless they ask and I surely won't hold my nose or lift my head up to someone who has Shimano. 8-That is just weird.
Campy lost their beauty along time ago and their component operation isn't leagues above Shimano, I'm sorry, it's just not.

1-Guilty as charged but not 'too much', for me, not enough.

2-Why would you say that? You have no idea what their financials are and if you look at what Valentino Campagnolo says, they are quite happy with their position in the market, like Rolex or Ducati.

3-Neither is Veloce, Athena and Chorus. Remember, what some MO outfit in the UK prices and sells, mostly grey/black market, w/o warranty, does not the market make.

4-I don't have to do any such thing sir. You see complete objective-ness as some sort of essential, I do not. I wouldn't ride anything with shimano or sram if it were free to me.

5-I owned a high-ish rent shop that was and still is very successful, and I led with my emotions everyday. Ask anybody who came in there about what I thought about the 2 's' companies.

6-Poppycock, Campagnolo fertilizes this point of view everyday.

7-See above, and I would not use the two 's' makers stuff, whether you think it's a good idea or not-so sorry.

8-Weird to you. I don't like toyota either. So sorry you are so dispassionate about things. Consumer reports would be proud to be on your mailing list.

I like Alfa Romeros too.

Velomonkey above hit the nail on the head. shimano would love to have the emotional following that Campagnolo has. I've never seen anybody with a shimano tattoo either, whether you a tattoo is weird or not..don't really care, nor does Valentino.

[jr59]

See, the problem here is when you romanticise a company, you are blind to the fact as to what is is, it's a company. And the funniest lines from two of you, saying Campy is akin to BMW/Audi versus Toyota is to totally get it wrong. The difference bewtween Shiamno and Campy products aren't as great as a Campyphile would hope. In fact, and as you already are aware, there is a majority of people who find Shimano to be in fact superior to Campy as well, here is the killer, a better value to boot.
It's not Ducati versus, Honda Motorcycles, it's bicycle components versus bicycle components and even people with money, belive it or not, can be discerning and value/performance driven and see Shimano in higher regard than Campy.
Could opening a Campy only store work? It already does, but only if it works for the immediate area and market around the shop they are serving. It wouldn't have saved the shop in the OPs first post, it would probably hastened it's demise. And it would'nt work in the area where I currently live.
As far as the shop guys bashing Campy, I chalk that up to lack of experience with the product and a prejudice against it for unkown reasons. It had no effect on me, but you see, Campy is fighting a giant in Shimano and a giant in it's absence in American cyclist minds and on spec bikes on bike shop floors.
To romanticise about Campy being OK with that is false, they aren't a wine maker happy with their lot, they want more of the market than they currently have. And they have made some very ugly cranks to prove it. Just as they will certainly make disc brakes to prove it. What they have done wrong is to continue to mismanage their presence American market.
You can open a bicycle shop and sell bicycle baubles and serve wine and go after the financially well off. Pray you have enough of those customers and kiss their tail good, because a slight dip in patronage and your shop is done, like so many others. Ribble, Wiggo and Chain Reaction will get your smarter customers, you will be left with the non buying talkers.
Personally, I could care less about a stuffy bike shop with over priced trinkets and attitude. And so would the majority of cyclist. I would take my bike to the Campy mech I know or drive a few miles and let SPOKE do it.
This forum is epic with hate rants against just that kind of snobbish bike shop. It's also full of stories about their demise.
You're trying to sell recreational equipment to well informed adults, there is no shame in acting like you know it and offering what they want at an affordable price. Cycling doesn't need off putting status symbol shops, it really only needs mass sellers and good independent mechanics.

In the most strongly way; I DISAGREE!

Others here have stated the flaws in this rant, so i don't need to.

Ride whatever you like. It's your bike.

[soulspinner]

Ive worked in two area bike shops. Ive tried everything I could get my hands on. For the last 50000 miles I have run Campy. Before that Suntour Superbe, Shimano. Sram is on my buds Ridley and Ive ridden that. Disposables ie chains and cassettes seem to last longer, the bearings are top quality even on my Chorus groups, and I still have a bottom bracket with near 35000 miles still going. It never saw a wrench. Guess thats why Im passionate about it ( it is a 2003 square taper, so take that 4 what its worth). The stuff, when properly set up works and works.

Top it off with multiple shift ability, separate controls for shifting and braking, solid tactile feedback and a total cost for the life of the group very competitive if not better, and you have a winner. Personal choice on shift/brake levers and visual appeal aside, CAMPY ROCKS. Your mileage may vary....

[Tony]

Ive worked in two area bike shops. Ive tried everything I could get my hands on. For the last 50000 miles I have run Campy. Before that Suntour Superbe, Shimano. Sram is on my buds Ridley and Ive ridden that. Disposables ie chains and cassettes seem to last longer, the bearings are top quality even on my Chorus groups, and I still have a bottom bracket with near 35000 miles still going. It never saw a wrench. Guess thats why Im passionate about it ( it is a 2003 square taper, so take that 4 what its worth). The stuff, when properly set up works and works.

Top it off with multiple shift ability, separate controls for shifting and braking, solid tactile feedback and a total cost for the life of the group very competitive if not better, and you have a winner. Personal choice on shift/brake levers and visual appeal aside, CAMPY ROCKS. Your mileage may vary....

I think this is were lots of folks reside regarding campy, this Italian company with soul. These flames of passion are not easily extinguished and seem to get stronger when challenged.

[gdw]

Methinks it's time for one of the moderators to merge this thread with the "Bugs or Daffy" thread.

[unterhausen]

I can't believe this became another Campy/Shimano thread.

Am I the only one who thinks that the "internet killed my shop" thing is way overblown? Back in the '70s, we used to deal with the same exact problem with mail order skimming sales on expensive parts. It was annoying, but we just knew not to carry much of that. The internet isn't going to sell your neighbor a $500 hybrid. It's much more likely that the neighbor isn't going to buy a $500 for their kid.

[shovelhd]

When you are catering to racers and serious recreational riders, you are catering to egos. If you cater to them at the expense of everyone else, then you have dealt your own hand of cards. You are now dependent on the very people you cater to, and if they go away, so do you. Every business needs its bread and butter to survive. For a bike shop, that's the tune-up, basic fitting, and accessory purchases. If the vibe of the shop drives these sales away, what is left?

Boutique shops like the Rapha Store can survive because they derive the majority of their income from the Internet. They can afford to cater to the egos. Your basic shop in Bethel CT most likely cannot.

[choke]

If nothing else this thread has made me laugh.

I'm in the 'the internet killed the shop is a convenient excuse' camp.

[simonov]

<snip>I think it is VERY much like Honda and Ducati motorcycles. Very much like Rolex and Casio or Seiko. Campagnolo isn't 'fighting a giant'..shimano retires more debt each year than Campagnolo grosses. shimano is fighting sram, and vice versa. Campagnolo sits aside and watches. </snip>

I have no dog in the fight as a happy Shimano, SRAM and Campy user. Seriously, I like them all and probably like SRAM the best as I've found it to be the least finicky to set up, the longest lasting without needing tweaks, and double-tap for the win. But comparing the groupset manufacturers who all make top of the line, middle of the road, and entry level competing products with Rolex vs. Casio is missing the mark. An entry level Rolex is roughly 20-30 times the price of the most expensive Casio and uses a completely different technology (automatic vs. quartz) and completely different materials. If Shimano was Casio and Campagnolo was Rolex, Super Record would run around $75K per groupset.

As for the actual topic at hand, there are many, many things that go into running a successful retail operation, but it is an absolute certainty that to do so you have to evolve with the times. If the internet is where sales are going for groups and parts, a successful shop will find a way to serve a customer that doesn't care about savings or a way to complement the internet with things a web browser can't do. But the internet can't put someone out of business; lack of adaptability can.

[soulspinner]

I think this is were lots of folks reside regarding campy, this Italian company with soul. These flames of passion are not easily extinguished and seem to get stronger when challenged.

Ya, fell for the trolling:bike:

[Red Tornado]

I wasn't criticizing you. I was speaking more generally. My local shop stocks very little in terms of higher-end componentry and very few bikes. There is no need to, as it does fits and can sell this stuff out of catalogues, and have it within days. If it carries inventory, it gets stuck.

FWIW, I agree with your approach. I virtually always give my LBS an opportunity first, and only order online if the shop cannot get the stuff in a reasonable time or I'm in a pinch.

We're good. I just wasn't sure if you understood the "tone" of my post.

[Red Tornado]

Lots of interesting views here.
I wasn't trying to re-start the Campy vs. Shimano/SRAM debate. Just strikes me as odd how a good number of local wrenches almost seem to get a look of fear when you mention Campy. They're just bike components. They have written instructions (sometimes not in the best English, though) and a mechanically-inclined person equipped with those and the correct tools should be able to install/service most of their stuff. Now in the shop's defense, I do not care for the Ultra/Power Torque design as they require yet more special (and expensive) tools. Yes, Campy's presence in NA is woefully inadequate and most likely a major reason why they have become a niche item - besides high prices.
I will continue to use the Internet for Campy & other stuff I can't get locally, and otherwise buy local and support the area shops as much as I can.
My unwillingness to change brands may sound like I have inflated ego or am very stubborn (which my wife would agree with, LOL), but it's my hard-earned $$ and I will spend it on the parts of my choosing. No disrespect meant to anyone.

[peanutgallery]

let me phrase it a different way. if Campy filed for bankruptcy, I do not think the vast majority of anyone in the US market would even know or care. 4 dudes at the main office would have to find a job but that is it. Thankfully 11 speed stuff is pretty universal

On another note, disc brakes. Check out the 2016 road catalogs, starting to see so much it is getting ridiculous. Straight up "pure" road bike are getting a bit fewer. Disc equipped and wide rim/tire compatibility and swiss army knife road/gravel bikes are in. Nail meet coffin, that 2.4% market share will diminish even more with the popularity of that genre. Bike shops would be wise to prepare for that market segment, knowledge is power and money

[shovelhd]

On another note, disc brakes. Check out the 2016 road catalogs, starting to see so much it is getting ridiculous. Straight up "pure" road bike are getting a bit fewer. Disc equipped and wide rim/tire compatibility and swiss army knife road/gravel bikes are in. Nail meet coffin, that 2.4% market share will diminish even more with the popularity of that genre

They will go out as fast as they came in. It's not about progress it's about marketing. Meanwhile Campy will continue to fill a niche in the traditional road space and do just fine.

[Tony T]

On another note, disc brakes. Check out the 2016 road catalogs, starting to see so much it is getting ridiculous

Where are you seeing it? In catalogs or on the road?
Yes, this is getting ridiculous.

[velomonkey]

let me phrase it a different way. if Campy filed for bankruptcy, I do not think the vast majority of anyone in the US market would even know or care. 4 dudes at the main office would have to find a job but that is it. Thankfully 11 speed stuff is pretty universal


The 2.4% reference was to show how market share means nothing. Also, their market share in high(er) end road racing bikes is more than 2.4% - just because some little group ride might not have much campy is fact by anecdote - it means nothing.

Brands that could file for bankruptcy and "the vast majority of anyone in the US market would even know or care"

Sidi
Colnago
Chris King
Time
Look
Vittoria
Veloflex
Peg
Deda
Cinelli
White Industries
DT Swiss
San Marco
(I'm not even gonna list the dozens of frame makers)

So the whole "the vast majority wouldn't even know" means nothing - like market share.

I gotta say, if Trek is sold or Specialized or Giant do you think anyone would care? I suspect it would be like Dale selling - a big collective yawn followed by a dry popcorn fart and scratching of the testicles all while shuffling your feet opening the fridge and drinking OJ straight from the box.

If Colnago were to sell to, say, Trek, the internet would be full of epic tales of the hay day or Ernestro.

[peanutgallery]

but these guys have done nothing with the US market for a long time. They've had their chance and missed the boat over the last ten years or so. If anyone with the slightest marketing acumen got involved, the need/want is there. Just for the record, Peg doesn't count. Mavic is close to being on your list, so add them

The 2.4% reference was to show how market share means nothing. Also, their market share in high(er) end road racing bikes is more than 2.4% - just because some little group ride might not have much campy is fact by anecdote - it means nothing.

Brands that could file for bankruptcy and "the vast majority of anyone in the US market would even know or care"

Sidi
Colnago
Chris King
Time
Look
Vittoria
Veloflex
Peg
Deda
Cinelli
White Industries
DT Swiss
San Marco
(I'm not even gonna list the dozens of frame makers)

So the whole "the vast majority wouldn't even know" means nothing - like market share.

I gotta say, if Trek is sold or Specialized or Giant do you think anyone would care? I suspect it would be like Dale selling - a big collective yawn followed by a dry popcorn fart and scratching of the testicles all while shuffling your feet opening the fridge and drinking OJ straight from the box.

If Colnago were to sell to, say, Trek, the internet would be full of epic tales of the hay day or Ernestro.

[r_mutt]

but these guys have done nothing with the US market for a long time. They've had their chance and missed the boat over the last ten years or so. If anyone with the slightest marketing acumen got involved, the need/want is there.


this is such an american-centric POV. in europe, Campagnolo is at least 50% of the market. for better or worse, the world is not just america.

[peanutgallery]

Both, imagine an extension of the specialized crossroads crowd as they grow up. This is what they're buying, no interest in the group ride but they want to ride and they like nice stuff. Interested in their own adventure and not a big fan of actually riding the road but they like all the other stuff. Shop I pull time at sells tons of Roubaixs and Diverges with disc. Kinda crazy but the general customer loves to spend $1500 to $2500 on these things. They are all older, no youngsters (but that issue is another thread entirely). Catalog is pretty full of them - particularly Raleigh, Jamis and Specialized

Quick analogy, 10 years ago good skiers bought race skis - even if they were older. These days, wide rocker skis. Not quite as fast but way more universal and fun. Show up at the shop with Dobermans and the guys behind the counter are laughing at at you

The market is evolving in the US as we speak

Where are you seeing it? In catalogs or on the road?
Yes, this is getting ridiculous.

[peanutgallery]

50% my a$$

Statistics, show me

this is such an american-centric POV. in europe, Campagnolo is at least 50% of the market. for better or worse, the world is not just america.

[velomonkey]

but these guys have done nothing with the US market for a long time. They've had their chance and missed the boat over the last ten years or so. If anyone with the slightest marketing acumen got involved, the need/want is there. Just for the record, Peg doesn't count. Mavic is close to being on your list, so add them

Sidi charges a premium that specialized wishes they could (red shoes)
Colnago charges a premium (wicked nice paint)
Chris King (bearing count)
Time (float counts)
Look (we do carbon right)
Vittoria (the cloud is here in our tires)
Veloflex (we make our tires where the cloud used to make theirs)
Deda (stems and bars work best together - and bend and reach matter)
Cinelli (single speed)
White Industries (a high end hub doesn't have to be only a King)
DT Swiss (ratchet system)
San Marco (your view of the world is determined by where you sit)

They all charge a premium, they all have an allure, they all are in business, they all have small market share and they all aren't front of mind with US consumers. They all also push the limits over other brands. In short, you put too much on marketing - their allure and premium pricing are what all marketing aspires to (as well as increased sales).

Total number of sales are a determination of only one factor of success. I would also be willing that the margin earned by Campy is higher than that of SRAM or Shimano.

A long time ago people had a similar discussion with Apple as it related to the market domination of computer maker Dell.

[peanutgallery]

Point taken, but...
all available from England, many rarely found in a US shop. Folks do pay a premium for King, I'll give you that

Who in their right mind wants to go thru the pain of attempting to stock Sidi in the US for example? Dealer interface kinda sux it. So not worth the hassle, Specialized/Shimano/Bontrager have come a long way for 99% of american consumers. And you can special order and actually have them show up. Sidi hasn't figured that out yet (my favorite shoe by BTW)


Sidi charges a premium that specialized wishes they could (red shoes)
Colnago charges a premium (wicked nice paint)
Chris King (bearing count)
Time (float counts)
Look (we do carbon right)
Vittoria (the cloud is here in our tires)
Veloflex (we make our tires where the cloud used to make theirs)
Deda (stems and bars work best together - and bend and reach matter)
Cinelli (single speed)
White Industries (a high end hub doesn't have to be only a King)
DT Swiss (ratchet system)
San Marco (your view of the world is determined by where you sit)

They all charge a premium, they all have an allure, they all are in business, they all have small market share and they all aren't front of mind with US consumers. They all also push the limits over other brands. In short, you put too much on marketing - their allure and premium pricing are what all marketing aspires to (as well as increased sales).

Total number of sales are a determination of only one factor of success. I would also be willing that the margin earned by Campy is higher than that of SRAM or Shimano.

A long time ago people had a similar discussion with Apple as it related to the market domination of computer maker Dell.

[shovelhd]

I suspect it would be like Dale selling - a big collective yawn followed by a dry popcorn fart and scratching of the testicles all while shuffling your feet opening the fridge and drinking OJ straight from the box.

That's gold right there.

[velomonkey]

Point taken, but...
all available from England, many rarely found in a US shop. Folks do pay a premium for King, I'll give you that


Every single brand is charging a premium (except maybe cinelli). Except for King, Vitorria, Veloflex and maybe DT Swiss all aren't really in the US shops and are primarily available from UK distributors. It's just easier - for the US you need a US importer (another middle man) and you have dynamic currency valuations. Those variables can kill your market. Plus you have specialized, Trek et all using their market strength to force you out or make it harder for your brand to play. So why play?

Saying these brands aren't available at most US bike retail shops and, as such, are in trouble is about the same as saying Trek and Specialized aren't sold by Wiggle so they are in trouble.

Every bike "shop" should know these products, be versed in their repair and shouldn't shun the consumer for having them. Conversely any consumer who goes into a shop and demands immediate service on product not purchased at said shop is most likely a not very desirable customer. Nevertheless, there IS a middle ground that works. Tubes, lube, chains, cables, handball tape, skewers, grease, jerseys, base layers, jackets, helmets, glasses, socks, fittings, adjustments, installs could all be done and purchased at a good shop.

[Burnette]

My points were that Campy is a business first, isn't above Shimano in wares, isn't as readily available and in reference to the original post, going to Campy only wasn't the answer for that shop and many others like it. And to Ol' tater and the rest of the Campyphiles, I certainly take no offense for you showing passion, that was my other point, that passion can blind you to what is really happening around you. Discourse can be robust but should always be civil and with the caveat that we leave the door open to each other. If I do go Campy, I want to be able to come here and ask you guys/gals stupid questions. And I'm fully prepared to take the ribbing as long as the helping hand is there and you get me out of a jam!
So, you read my opinion and I got the groups take, but as much as we pushed Campy to the fore, that bike shop clearly closed for other reasons than Campy, Shimano and the internet. Location, amount and frequency of patronage, business acumen, the real reason surely lies in these or other factors.

[velomonkey]

My points were that Campy is a business first, isn't above Shimano in wares, isn't as readily available and in reference to the original post, going to Campy only wasn't the answer for that shop and many others like it.

They are all a business first - all of them - even sock guy. He might have 'guy' in his name, but he is a business first.

I think tater, and he can speak for himself, was only given an example that shops need to codify their approach and service needs to be foremost and that possibly a shop could exist that focused solely or significantly on campy. On that I agree.

I don't think tater was holding campy out as a panacea for this situation.

[Burnette]

velomonkey, put that polished hub down and step away from the keyboard! Everybody is having cookies and milk and watching TV now. If you stay in here and all the cookies get eaten, it's your fault. I told ya.

[carpediemracing]

Location, amount and frequency of patronage, business acumen, the real reason surely lies in these or other factors.

I can't speak for the shop in question but for me, for my shop, the honest, no-BS assessment (2 decades later - has it been that long?) is the bolded above. I made so many elementary errors I'm amazed I stayed in business more than a year. I couldn't see the forest for the trees.

My current situation with the race series is similar. Race has lost tons of money in the last 10 years. I know it can be profitable (or even neutral - no losses) but I get too focused on details. I'm trying to view the larger picture but it's hard. I know I should but what happens is there is one or two things that catch my attention (usually in a bad way) and I try to fix them, without thinking big picture. Busy or unavailable venue. Staff changes. Stuff like that pull in my focus a bit too much. I don't focus as much on the business side of things and suddenly, bam, I'm paying 4 figures to do my own race each week.

We'll see if I can accept my own advice for 2016 :)

[oldpotatoe]

but these guys have done nothing with the US market for a long time. They've had their chance and missed the boat over the last ten years or so. If anyone with the slightest marketing acumen got involved, the need/want is there. Just for the record, Peg doesn't count. Mavic is close to being on your list, so add them

But I think you way over-estimate the 'US market'. In comparison, for the stuff you talk about, it is small, compared to Europe and even Japan. Sorry, 'riding bikes' in the US is fairly large in the US, but 'cycling enthusiasm', in this 'ball oriented' country is teeny. Golf is far bigger, at the mid-high end, in the US than mid to high end cycling. And the 'gravel grinder/Groad/'adventure' bike segment is even smaller. Non existent in Europe. Ever wonder why Campagnolo sold more 52/39-13-26/36h hubs for so long? It wasn't because of the US market.

RMutt beat me to it.

[oldpotatoe]

My points were that Campy is a business first, isn't above Shimano in wares, isn't as readily available and in reference to the original post, going to Campy only wasn't the answer for that shop and many others like it. 1-And to Ol' tater and the rest of the Campyphiles, I certainly take no offense for you showing passion, that was my other point, that passion can blind you to what is really happening around you. Discourse can be robust but should always be civil and with the caveat that we leave the door open to each other. 2-If I do go Campy, I want to be able to come here and ask you guys/gals stupid questions. And I'm fully prepared to take the ribbing as long as the helping hand is there and you get me out of a jam!
So, you read my opinion and I got the groups take, but as much as we pushed Campy to the fore, that bike shop clearly closed for other reasons than Campy, Shimano and the internet. Location, amount and frequency of patronage, business acumen, the real reason surely lies in these or other factors.

1-As a bike shop owner, to be successful(and I was-very), I had to 'see' what was going on around me. A bunch of cookie cutter, big bike shop, trekspecializedgiantcannondale bike shops with wads of wheelsouttaboxes...shimano, some spam..As a 'Campyfile', it was easy. As I said before, if all/most of a small market segment all come to you, it's a big market segment for you. I even had other 'Campy Pro Shop' call me and ask questions about Campagnolo. How Campagnolo NA designated 'ProShop' status is the subject of another discussion.

AND nobody suggested the shop mentioned in the first post would be 'saved' by becoming Campy-only.

2-No stupid questions, only stupid answers.;) As a 'eyes wide open' bike shop owner, I knew shimano/spam better than the non Campagnolo shops, had to, as a service oriented store. I also worked on far more shimano equipped bikes than Campagnolo, so I kinda know their, and Campagnolo's, warts. I was also harassed and bad mouthed over the phone by some 'big guy; at spam..those guys can KMA. Some times, and yes, emotion isn't a 'good thing' in business BUT, I wouldn't sell something, 'just cuz I could'. Some items could just stay out of my shop.

Michelin tires
sram anything including all their minnion brands(zipp)
Combe pedals
Dean bikes
Erikson bikes
some others

BUT-The knowledge base on this forum is amazing..

Stereo questions, computer questions, medical questions, dog and cat questions, car/motorcycle questions, diesel questions, military/military aviation questions, etc, etc, Attorneys, Doctors, industry people, name the industry/field, amazing...and even bike questions:o..you will find an answer here, and not much ribbing either. I don't care what you use on a bike, I don gotta ride it. :D

[oldpotatoe]

I have no dog in the fight as a happy Shimano, SRAM and Campy user. Seriously, I like them all and probably like SRAM the best as I've found it to be the least finicky to set up, the longest lasting without needing tweaks, and double-tap for the win. But comparing the groupset manufacturers who all make top of the line, middle of the road, and entry level competing products with Rolex vs. Casio is missing the mark. An entry level Rolex is roughly 20-30 times the price of the most expensive Casio and uses a completely different technology (automatic vs. quartz) and completely different materials. If Shimano was Casio and Campagnolo was Rolex, Super Record would run around $75K per groupset.

As for the actual topic at hand, there are many, many things that go into running a successful retail operation, but it is an absolute certainty that to do so you have to evolve with the times. If the internet is where sales are going for groups and parts, a successful shop will find a way to serve a customer that doesn't care about savings or a way to complement the internet with things a web browser can't do. But the internet can't put someone out of business; lack of adaptability can.

Not my point, actual $. My point is that some small manufacturers of premium goods wish to stay small, not be bigger, bigger, bigger, all the time, like Rolex. Rolex tried the quartz watch gig, like Mercedes tried a 'baby Benz' and Porsche tried the 'people's Porsche'..They and others 'saw the light', and
stayed small, exclusive. My point about Campagnolo.

[OtayBW]

Some items could just stay out of my shop.

Michelin tires
sram anything including all their minnion brands(zipp)
Combe pedals
Dean bikes
Erikson bikes
some others

Eagerly awaiting Part II....:D

[oldpotatoe]

Eagerly awaiting Part II....:D

Well, don't own it anymore so it doesn't really matter. The last 3 cuz they would sell direct to a Boulder customer, even if I were the Boulder dealer.

Don't wish to compete with the manufacturer.

[Cicli]

Not my point, actual $. My point is that some small manufacturers of premium goods wish to stay small, not be bigger, bigger, bigger, all the time, like Rolex. Rolex tried the quartz watch gig, like Mercedes tried a 'baby Benz' and Porsche tried the 'people's Porsche'..They and others 'saw the light', and
stayed small, exclusive. My point about Campagnolo.

May I present the shram of the auto industry.

[oldpotatoe]

May I present the shram of the auto industry.

Wasn't that actually built by Opel and not a bad car?? shram of auto industry.

Or maybe 'LeCar'...

[Cicli]

Wasn't that actually built by Opel and not a bad car?? shram of auto industry.

Or maybe 'LeCar'...

No, it was a Chevy Cavilier dressed up like a Caddy. Junk.

[thunderworks]

This thread started out with a post from a dealer who, sadly, was not able to continue in the business. He blamed the Internet.

The thread has largely devolved into a discussion of componentry: campy vs. Shimano vs. SRAM. Somewhere around page two I wrote that I thought that money was made in the middle of the market and that the edges of the marketplace, represented by your typical forumite participant, was not critical to the success or failure of a bike shop. I still believe that, but after reading through 15 pages of this discussion, I think it needs a little more . . .

I believe that most people who own bike shops really love bikes, and that they are in the business as a reflection of that passion. I certainly got into the bike business when I was young because I was totally passionate about bikes. That 's a good thing. Passion feeds your energy. Absorbs you. Motivates you. All good.

At some point though, I believe that for a store to be successful, an owner, or someone hired by the owner, has to give as much credence to and effort towards, the business side of the store. Knowledge about bikes and passion for them without a parallel commitment to learning about business is not a good formula for success. Really that that means is that every owner needs to consider their unique market and rather than believing that he/she can make the market conform to their particular interest, needs to make their store conform to the opportunity a given marketplace provides.

With all due respect to old Tater, Boulder is not indicative of the market in much of the country. More globally, with all due respect to the aficionados who read this forum, their level of interest and product knowledge is not probably indicative either. That observation does not suggest that stores should ignore the fun part of the market. Cool bikes are why many of us got into the business. Cool bikes on a showroom floor help sell less cool bikes. Knowing about all of the hardware available is the underpinning of a quality service department. Knowledge of the breadth of the marketplace is the foundation of a successful bike business - but I continue to believe that for the vast majority of the bike shops in America, the money is made in the middle. The low end brings in new customers who hopefully will get more engaged over time in bikes and riding. The high end of the market is fun, both for owners and employees, and can help position a shop within a given market . . .but neither the low end, nor the high end of the business really makes much money. Both are necessary, but without the middle, there's not much of a future.

The middle part of the market, ubiquitously represented by Trek, Spesh, Giant etc. is the money pot. Not very interesting I'll grant, and the companies are whores to deal with, but the gravy nonetheless. I suspect that if you added up all the dollars involved with Moots, Cervelo, custom this or that, Ericksen, all of them, the total would be a fraction of any one of the big companies. And further, if you analyzed the sales of any one of the big companies, they probably make their money in the middle of their product line too.

As for my first post, all of the above is just my opinion.

[Rada]

Not my point, actual $. My point is that some small manufacturers of premium goods wish to stay small, not be bigger, bigger, bigger, all the time, like Rolex. Rolex tried the quartz watch gig, like Mercedes tried a 'baby Benz' and Porsche tried the 'people's Porsche'..They and others 'saw the light', and
stayed small, exclusive. My point about Campagnolo.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but Campaganolo seems to recognize to some degree the need to at least maintain a certain portion of the market share or else why move some production to Romania.

[Black Dog]

I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but Campaganolo seems to recognize to some degree the need to at least maintain a certain portion of the market share or else why move some production to Romania.

I think that move was to adapt to some of he growth they are experiencing in sales by moving some of the production the lower end of the product range due to being at capacity in Italy. Global bike sales up = campy sales up. A rising tide floats all boats...even Italian boats.

[oldpotatoe]

I think that move was to adapt to some of he growth they are experiencing in sales by moving some of the production the lower end of the product range due to being at capacity in Italy. Global bike sales up = campy sales up. A rising tide floats all boats...even Italian boats.

And although no Campagnolo branded components made outside of Europe, Fulcrum is..in Taiwan. I still think eventually there will be a Fulcrum group, made there for frames made there, for OEM. But I've been saying that for a while.

[Rada]

I think that move was to adapt to some of he growth they are experiencing in sales by moving some of the production the lower end of the product range due to being at capacity in Italy. Global bike sales up = campy sales up. A rising tide floats all boats...even Italian boats.

Lower production cost in Romania spurred the move more than capacity in Italy. If so why not open new plants in Italy. I remember reading Campy's Italian workers were pretty unhappy and even threatened a strike when a second plant opening in Romania was announced.

[simonov]

Not my point, actual $. My point is that some small manufacturers of premium goods wish to stay small, not be bigger, bigger, bigger, all the time, like Rolex. Rolex tried the quartz watch gig, like Mercedes tried a 'baby Benz' and Porsche tried the 'people's Porsche'..They and others 'saw the light', and
stayed small, exclusive. My point about Campagnolo.

Mercedes saw the light and brought out the CLA and GLA that run in the low $30s, much cheaper and more accessible than the cars they built their legacy on. While still expensive, Porsche now has the Macan, a small SUV that is, IMO, quite the departure from their legacy as well and is really geared at putting the Porsche brand in the driveways of people that can't currently afford a real Porsche. It's a gateway Porsche. And Rolex wishes to stay independent, they don't wish to stay small. They're the leader in their price point, do everything they can to dominate their portion of the market, and brought Tudor back to the US recently to capture marketshare from companies like Tag Heuer at a lower price point. The light they saw is an opportunity to make more money. Campagnolo may wish to remain independent and not get bought out by some megacorp, but do you honestly think they'd prefer to avoid growth in order to align with the romance of the small company Tullio started? Also, as others here have mentioned, Campagnolo has very good representation in Europe. They're only "exclusive" in the US because they don't have market penetration. They're not Patek Philippe. Now that's a company that strives for exclusivity.

[OtayBW]

Campagnolo may wish to remain independent and not get bought out by some megacorp, but do you honestly think they'd prefer to avoid growth in order to align with the romance of the small company Tullio started?Makes you wonder because I suspect they have had their offers, many times....

[velomonkey]

Makes you wonder because I suspect they have had their offers, many times....

Craigslist.

All these people saying grow, grow, grow hate these examples.

Craigslist business is exactly as it was when they started 20 years ago.

Revenue was $381 with profit of $300 million.

[Black Dog]

Lower production cost in Romania spurred the move more than capacity in Italy. If so why not open new plants in Italy. I remember reading Campy's Italian workers were pretty unhappy and even threatened a strike when a second plant opening in Romania was announced.

I agree. When faced with the prospect of opening a second Italian plant they went the cheaper route for the lower margin components. But the at least kept in Europe where the would be closer to the plants.

[simonov]

Makes you wonder because I suspect they have had their offers, many times....

Offer to get bought out? Perhaps, but a desire to stay independent doesn't equate to a desire to stagnate or avoid growth. What I wonder is how they'd respond if a mega bike co like SpecialTrek offered to make them their standard OEM supplier for all road bikes. That would certainly result in some growth, and at the expense of exclusivity.

[velomonkey]

Anyone remember when Cannondale decided to grow and built quads - cause they were public and, well, growth.

Worked out well - LeBron James made some money.

[rounder]

I don't know if this still happens but I remember that a lot of LBS's wouldn't install parts that a customer had bought from Ribble, Chain Reaction etc. If I owned an LBS I'd happily install them for customers - may be with a premium, maybe not. But cash in the door is still cash in the door.

And I'll bet the rent for that flash railway premises was a factor in the closure.

Yes, I know that you can buy parts cheaper from Ribble.

I bought parts from Ribble / Wiggle fpr my last three bike builds. I know that it was cheaper than paying retail USA. For me, it made the bikes, that I probably could not otherwise afford, affordable. The other main thing was the bikes were all sort of dream projects. Sort of...if you could build a bike and have whatever you like, what would you do. I searched and got what I liked. They were all adventure projects. For all of them, I had the LBS do the work and paid then what they charged without quibble.

People from my LBSs are my frirnds.

[OtayBW]

Offer to get bought out? Perhaps, but a desire to stay independent doesn't equate to a desire to stagnate or avoid growth. What I wonder is how they'd respond if a mega bike co like SpecialTrek offered to make them their standard OEM supplier for all road bikes. That would certainly result in some growth, and at the expense of exclusivity.
I'd be surprised if Campy wasn't already approached many times now with any number of offers - at least informally -but I don't see anyone offering to make it standard OEM equipment for all road bikes - doubt that would fly.

[cfox]

Not my point, actual $. My point is that some small manufacturers of premium goods wish to stay small, not be bigger, bigger, bigger, all the time, like Rolex. Rolex tried the quartz watch gig, like Mercedes tried a 'baby Benz' and Porsche tried the 'people's Porsche'..They and others 'saw the light', and
stayed small, exclusive. My point about Campagnolo.

But Campagnolo was big...they owned the market for high-end racing parts for many years. They were the dominant brand. That is far from the case now. You make it sound like they gave up massive market share by choice. Doubt it. There is nothing exclusive or "premium" about Campagnolo; anyone with a credit card can order a group, and it won't cost any more than an equivalent group from Shimano. "Premium" is a subjective quality that has no basis other than opinion.

[velomonkey]

But Campagnolo was big...they owned the market for high-end racing parts for many years. They were the dominant brand. That is far from the case now. You make it sound like they gave up massive market share by choice. Doubt it. There is nothing exclusive or "premium" about Campagnolo; anyone with a credit card can order a group, and it won't cost any more than an equivalent group from Shimano. "Premium" is a subjective quality that has no basis other than opinion.


A BMW 540 is gonna run you north of 60k

Dodge Challengers can run north of 60k

What car do you think people will say is 'premium?' Perception is reality.

For decades IBM had nearly 100% market share of computers. The market grew IBM's market share was lowered - they make way more money now and sell more units as compared to then (well, before they sold their PC unit).

[simonov]

I'd be surprised if Campy wasn't already approached many times now with any number of offers - at least informally -but I don't see anyone offering to make it standard OEM equipment for all road bikes - doubt that would fly.

For sure, I don't see anyone offering to make it standard OEM. My point is that IF someone did, would Campy stay true to their keep it small ethos or take the opportunity for growth. My guess is growth.

A BMW 540 is gonna run you north of 60k

Dodge Challengers can run north of 60k

What car do you think people will say is 'premium?' Perception is reality.

A Dodge Challenger starts around $25K, a BMW 5series starts around $50K. The $60K Challenger is a Hellcat, which is more equivalent, though actually a bit more powerful, than an M5, which runs $100K+ once you add options. It isn't just perception. Apples to apples, BMW is a more premium, or at least more expensive, brand than Dodge.

Campy offers groups and components that span the same price points as their competition, with the exception of SR. Record is not a premium of DuraAce. It just shifts with a different configuration of levers. They're both premiums over Athena or 105.

[oldpotatoe]

Campagnolo may wish to remain independent and not get bought out by some megacorp, but do you honestly think they'd prefer to avoid growth in order to align with the romance of the small company Tullio started? Also, as others here have mentioned, Campagnolo has very good representation in Europe. They're only "exclusive" in the US because they don't have market penetration. They're not Patek Philippe. Now that's a company that strives for exclusivity.

The only real attempt to buy was in the late 80s, early 90s after Tullio's attempt at MTB stuff and then feeling Record friction shifters would dominate 'serious' rider's bikes and the 'masses' would opt for the click shifters of CDA/A-B Chorus/Athena. Of course all that was wrong. Tullio sold off all the Campagnolo owned non bike companies(like magnesium casting for aviation industry..car wheels), and came up with ERGO. The offer was from Mavic.

I don't think they 'avoid' growth but have a certain philosophy and stick to it. They have grown and sell everything they make since every year since about 1992.

Like Rolex-Tudor, they have Fulcrum. But the other examples, baby-Benz, Quartz Rolex, trying to 'be like them', were failures. I think Campagnolo doesn't want to 'be like them', and have a TON of bike component lineups but rather concentrate on 5.

[oldpotatoe]

But Campagnolo was big...they owned the market for high-end racing parts for many years. They were the dominant brand. That is far from the case now. You make it sound like they gave up massive market share by choice. Doubt it. There is nothing exclusive or "premium" about Campagnolo; anyone with a credit card can order a group, and it won't cost any more than an equivalent group from Shimano. "Premium" is a subjective quality that has no basis other than opinion.

They were dominant, in a market that was pretty tiny. Racing Bikes. Both in Europe and more so in the US..in the 50s/60s/70s. Then MTBs happened, bike sales sky rocketed and shimano looked at someting from fishing reels, used a technology found in them(click shifting), made index MTB stuff in the 80s and the rest is history. Campagnolo, focusing on road racing in Europe, missed the MTB 'boat', no doubt.

[SeanScott]

I still want Campagnolo to start making automotive wheels again.
It would be so rad if someone with Alfa, Ferrari, Fiat,Lamborghini could update with some beautiful campy wheels.

[Tony]

I still want Campagnolo to start making automotive wheels again.
It would be so rad if someone with Alfa, Ferrari, Fiat,Lamborghini could update with some beautiful campy wheels.

I wouldn't waste nice wheels on a Fiat :)

[SeanScott]

I wouldn't waste nice wheels on a Fiat :)

Fix It Again Tony!

:D

[GRAVELBIKE]

Speaking of watches and SRAM, just gonna leave this here:

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/683/22592781922_d4659736c9.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/AqrUWN)

[Avincent52]

Saw this on Facebook and thought it might be interesting to some.

The owner talks numbers, says the business was down 40 percent, and that service only accounted for 10 percent of his revenue.

Didn't realize Cannondale had been HQ'd in Bethel.

I still think it's a shame.

http://www.newstimes.com/business/article/Downtown-staple-Bethel-Cycle-to-close-6665616.php?cmpid=fb-desktop#photo-9039872

[velomonkey]

Totally sad. Still doesn't add up.

Sales increased twice as much since he purchased it in 1999.

Sales recently decreased 40% - that means sales are still up 20% from when the store was purchased and the store had been there 25 years prior.

Lance mania was easy money for bike shops - never take your fixed costs up when sales are easy. It's the old saying - never swallow your own kool aid. Take the money and bank it and think long and hard before increasing fixed costs.

[thunderworks]

And this from the bike industry trade journal . . .

http://www.bicycleretailer.com/studies-reports/2015/11/25/bike-retail-roll-entering-holiday-season-npd-group-says#.Vl4Ue7924uc

Units and total volume at the IBD (Independent Bicycle Dealer) are up for the year.

[Tony T]

While no longer a LBS (Bethel Cycle), at least the location is now a Brewery/Restaurant
https://www.brokensymmetrybrew.com/

[fmradio516]

While no longer a LBS (Bethel Cycle), at least the location is now a Brewery/Restaurant
https://www.brokensymmetrybrew.com/

Good to know. ill be moving to Orange in Sept, so will be nearby!

[Tony T]

Good to know. ill be moving to Orange in Sept, so will be nearby!

A lot of great riding in that area (Bethel). I start in Westport, and my turn-around point is at Newton or Bethel (never been as far as Orange). I haven’t been at the Depot since the Bike Shop closed (bought my bike there), so I was glad to see recently (in a local news feed) that it’s now a Brewery/Restaurant. They’ve been open for over a year.

[fmradio516]

A lot of great riding in that area (Bethel). I start in Westport, and my turn-around point is at Newton or Bethel. I haven’t been at the Depot since the Bike Shop closed (bought my bike there), so I was glad to see recently (in a local news feed) that it’s now a Brewery/Restaurant. They’ve been open for over a year.

Awesome! Ive been worried about the riding as the roads around the house im moving to dont have a ton of shoulder on the sides and im not one to drive somewhere for a road ride.... mountain biking is different, ill be seeking every trail within an hours distance :)

[Tony T]

Awesome! Ive been worried about the riding as the roads around the house im moving to dont have a ton of shoulder on the sides and im not one to drive somewhere for a road ride.... mountain biking is different, ill be seeking every trail within an hours distance :)

Just need to find routes off the main roads. I do 30-50 mile loops, and while the roads I ride don”t have shoulders (or even a center line in many areas) the traffic is so light that it’s relatively safe. Sometimes I’m riding for 30 minutes without seeing a car. Not sure how it is in Orange, though. Just check out https://ridewithgps.com/ for some routes in your area.

[fmradio516]

Just need to find routes off the main roads. I do 30-50 mile loops, and while the roads I ride don”t have shoulders (or even a center line in many areas) the traffic is so light that it’s relatively safe. Sometimes I’m riding for 30 minutes without seeing a car. Not sure how it is in Orange, though. Just check out https://ridewithgps.com/ for some routes in your area.

Good call. Thank you.