More drug fallout

[JohnS]

Velonews (on their race ticker) is reporting that Liberty Seguros has ended their sponsorship of Saiz's team and also that Jan U is a "patient" of the doctor arrested with Saiz. It just keeps getting interestinger and interestinger...

[sspielman]

According to El Pais, the Spanish police has found lists with 200 names of Spanish and foreign cyclists during their doping-raid. All riders are members of Elite teams. Several riders are also filmed by a hidden cameras, which was placed by the police in an apartment in Madrid where blood was taken from them. After that, oxygen was added and the blood was later injected with the rider again. According to the police, also 200 samples with blood were found and during the several house-searches thousands of other "forbidden products" were found, like EPO, growth hormones from China and medicins from a German hospital.
This investigation by the police started already in February, when they got rumours about a doping network in Spain and the first bloodsamples, etc. were found in the dustbins of hotels.

[mfb1001]

Ok, does this mean that Liberty Seguros will not be in the TDF? How many more new cyclists will be racing this year, because of this fall out?

[Argos]

Oh G-d. This is gonna be big. I think the sport is in for a rough season.

[JohnS]

Oh G-d. This is gonna be big. I think the sport is in for a rough season.No. No. No. It's just a few isolated "bad apples". Most pro cyclists are squeaky clean and wouldn't dream of using drugs. (heavy on the sarcasm). :D

[LegendRider]

Where does Vino go? What happens to the Liberty-Seguros riders racing in the Giro?

[Argos]

Yeah, if it develops to be as bad as it sounds it's only going to get worse, and I think we will be longing for the days of the Festina Affair.

How is it these people can't nail that bastard, Bonds?!?!

[coylifut]

Yeah, if it develops to be as bad as it sounds it's only going to get worse, and I think we will be longing for the days of the Festina Affair.

How is it these people can't nail that bastard, Bonds?!?!

law enforcement isn't involved with the Bonds case. This group here though?

200 bags of blood. Gee. I wonder if any those ever get mixed up?

[chrisroph]

Sad, but not surprising.

[Ginger]

200 bags of blood. Gee. I wonder if any those ever get mixed up?

Yeah, I wonder how many cyclists died with this operation?

So...they got caught because they're doctors, not criminals? The operation got too big to conceal easily? They got too greedy?

I agree that a pro athlete is generally naturally gifted, so they probably are capable of higher speeds than the average joe racer, but I wonder, without the doping, what speeds the cyclists will get to in these races clean?

200 names...

How many riders race the tour?

[Tom]

How many riders race the tour?

I don't know, but I just got a call based on my results at Sunapee.

[Ginger]

Dependent on the results of your tests?

Lets contemplate for a moment that a great probility is that not all the riders in the pro ranks who dope use the same doc...so there may be other operations out there of similar scope...

Scary.

[saab2000]

I agree that a pro athlete is generally naturally gifted, so they probably are capable of higher speeds than the average joe racer, but I wonder, without the doping, what speeds the cyclists will get to in these races clean?



If you want to know this check the speeds of the Tour from the early '80s. That is not to say doping did not exist then, because it did, but it was not nearly as sophisticated as it is now, nor did it have the impact that it does now. The races then had significantly lower average speeds because they could not race from the gun like they do now. Also, look at pictures of the riders from then. They were not nearly as lean or anorexic looking.

The doping we see now involving sophisticated blood work and hormones, etc, began in the mid-80s if I am not mistaken. I am not accusing Moser of anything, but it was when he started working with Conconi in prep for his hour record that they started working much more systematically than before.

At least that is how I have observed it as a cyclist in the sport since then. It got WAY more sophisticated in the mid to late '80s and through the '90s.

[zank]

I wonder what jersey the Wurth riders will be able to ride in tomorrow? Can't call them Liberty riders anymore. But, maybe Wurth has already pulled out too?

I dunno, but this whole situation is very sad. 1998 all over again. Or, more likely, much worse.

[catulle]

I think this is a good thing. Maybe the sport will be cleaned up as a result. It is about time.

[atmo]

liberty mutual is the sponsor of the 'cross natz.
all i wanna know is how this affects us.

[JohnS]

I think this is a good thing. Maybe the sport will be cleaned up as a result. It is about time.
Keep talking like that and you'll be the next one in for a drug test. It'll never happen. They'll just move on to something else that can't be tested for yet.

[catulle]

Keep talking like that and you'll be the next one in for a drug test. It'll never happen. They'll just move on to something else that can't be tested for yet.

Are they after peyote too...?!

[Big Dan]

Drug testing for forum members????......... :eek:

[Johny]

I think this is a good thing. Maybe the sport will be cleaned up as a result. It is about time.


yeah after Lance left the sport!

[rpm]

It got WAY more sophisticated in the mid to late '80s and through the '90s.

That's exactly what Greg LeMond said. All those who blasted him should be eating their words.

[Argos]

Just as an aside....

Even with drugs removed as a factor both then and now, I think we are looking at faster times now.

Nutrition and regimented training has significantly improved. The athlete's rest more, train much smarter, eat significantly better.......

Fact is drugs were around then and now. So that makes it kinda moot, but I still think we are looking at faster times today proportional to a bizarro world with out drugs.

[Argos]

That's exactly what Greg LeMond said. All those who blasted him should be eating their words.

Didn't he later learn that the reason everyone was moving forward while he felt like he was sliding back was his mitochondrial disease?

[Johny]

200 bags of blood. Gee. I wonder if any those ever get mixed up?

You mean they mixed up Tyler's and his twin brother's blood...but they should be the same blood...no?

[Johny]

200 names...

How many riders race the tour?

In 2005, there are other 400 names under Dr. Ferrari...of course not all the "patients" are pro...making it 3,000 names since 1986 when EPO was cloned.

[William]

http://static.flickr.com/36/74052823_5529e95842.jpg

[fstrthnu]

Dependent on the results of your tests?

Lets contemplate for a moment that a great probility is that not all the riders in the pro ranks who dope use the same doc...so there may be other operations out there of similar scope...

Scary.

Gaasps! Naaahhh... Ya think? :rolleyes:

Fstrthnu

Keepin it REAL in the 617

[coylifut]

Just as an aside....

Even with drugs removed as a factor both then and now, I think we are looking at faster times now.

Nutrition and regimented training has significantly improved. The athlete's rest more, train much smarter, eat significantly better.......

Fact is drugs were around then and now. So that makes it kinda moot, but I still think we are looking at faster times today proportional to a bizarro world with out drugs.

I'm not buying that argument. I saw a taped interview with Lemond and who disputes this out of hand and I give what he says a lot of weight. Take riders like Julich, Valverde and Petachi who say they train by feel and don't use a highly scientific approach. Sure the sport and speeds evolve incrementally, but these speeds are so much faster.

[bcm119]

Even with drugs removed as a factor both then and now, I think we are looking at faster times now.

Nutrition and regimented training has significantly improved. The athlete's rest more, train much smarter, eat significantly better.......



I think that is true to an extent. Since the age of periodization times have improved drastically. Take swimming for instance, which happens to be the only sport I know anything about. Swimming is a much cleaner sport than cycling (hardly any money involved!) so we can use it as a relatively drug-free comparison sport whose training fundamentals are very similar. There are currently no world swimming records on the men's side older than 2000. The only women's records that still stand were set by Janet Evans, who is a freak of nature, and even one of her records was recently broken.

However, isolating the improvements due to training techniques from those due to drug use/technology is impossible. To say its only the drugs or only the training is wrong, its an unknown combination of each.

[andy mac]

I think that is true to an extent. Since the age of periodization times have improved drastically. Take swimming for instance, which happens to be the only sport I know anything about. Swimming is a much cleaner sport than cycling (hardly any money involved!) so we can use it as a relatively drug-free comparison sport whose training fundamentals are very similar. There are currently no world swimming records on the men's side older than 2000. The only women's records that still stand were set by Janet Evans, who is a freak of nature, and even one of her records was recently broken.

However, isolating the improvements due to training techniques from those due to drug use/technology is impossible. To say its only the drugs or only the training is wrong, its an unknown combination of each.


correct me if i'm wrong but aren't people also getting taller and stronger.
(OK, mostly taller and fatter)

:beer:

[Fixed]

Didn't he later learn that the reason everyone was moving forward while he felt like he was sliding back was his mitochondrial disease?
I think his bro andy felt the same way as greg .
cheers

[bcm119]

correct me if i'm wrong but aren't people also getting taller and stronger.
(OK, mostly taller and fatter)

:beer:

Well, kids are getting weaker and fatter....but they have incredible hand eye coordination. :rolleyes:

[Dr. Doofus]

Just as an aside....

Even with drugs removed as a factor both then and now, I think we are looking at faster times now.

Nutrition and regimented training has significantly improved. The athlete's rest more, train much smarter, eat significantly better.......

Fact is drugs were around then and now. So that makes it kinda moot, but I still think we are looking at faster times today proportional to a bizarro world with out drugs.

training theory and practice have not jumped forward dramatically since 1982. Read Lemond's book from '86. We knew about diet then. His weekly schedules were wack, but in other sports block training was being used. Heck, look at Ernie M's Swimming Faster from 1982. We knew base, build, peak...we knew atp/cp, vo2 max, LT, Tempo...and how to manage work/rest.

the big training improvements in cycling are primarily big drug improvements -- the doctors are the ones who have pushed the boundaries of work and rest with the benefit of all kinds of burritos, enchiladas, tacos, the whole nine, bro.

the training advancements that have been made in the last twenty years are small steps forward on something that was already figured out.

its dope, bro.

[rspecker]

Good news is I can cancel my Direct TV--don't need OLN anymore since I no longer care about TDF or any other pro cycling (and rodeo is only cool to watch live and I've never liked watching dudes fish).

This was the last straw for pro cycling. They are all juicers. I know some people don't care about drugs/cheating in sports (e.g., Bonds' legions of fans here in SF), but not me. It wrecks it for me.

My riding buddies don't dope, so we can just race up Old La Honda like the old men we are and talk about new gear we don't need; that's good enough. It is still a great sport.

[72gmc]

Money. It makes Barry Bonds inject farm animal hormones. It makes Ken Lay and Jeff Skilling inject holier-than-thou-big-fat-horse's-caboose hormones. It makes Manolo Saiz do what he's apparently been doing a long time, only sloppier.

Would it be healthier for pro cycling to go the other way? Lo-bucks like cyclocross. Riders pursuing beer-and-burrito "regimens" in folding chairs in the parking lot.

[Dr. Doofus]

Riders pursuing beer-and-burrito "regimens" in folding chairs in the parking lot.

not RC burritos, doof hopes.

[andy mac]

don't know just askin':

are there any tech advancments that may also have helped raise speeds - wheels, wind tunnel tests, lighter or stiffer bikes, black socks etc??


(i seem to remember some people around here claim to ride 5% faster on new wheels, frames etc.)


:beer:

[yeehawfactor]

don't know just askin':

are there any tech advancments that may also have helped raise speeds - wheels, wind tunnel tests, lighter or stiffer bikes, black socks etc??


(i seem to remember some people around here claim to ride 5% faster on new wheels, frames etc.)


:beer:
i'd say prolly zertz
http://www.u-rinkan.com/04specialized/zertz.jpg

[Ginger]

Gaasps! Naaahhh... Ya think? :rolleyes:

Fstrthnu

Keepin it REAL in the 617


Yeah...so...answer the obvious question.

[atmo]

Yeah...so...answer the obvious question.



i would say there are many similar operations atmo.

[CalfeeFly]

I wish that people would:

1. "Not be holier than thou." Nobody on this forum unless you raced in the Giro, Tour, Vuelta etc. has the foggiest clue of what these races and ProTour racing does to your body. Tour riders actually lose bone mass due to the pounding. ProTour riders demand more of their bodies than they ever were intended to take. Nobody here knows what they would do given the same circumstances. To say you do is an indication you need to mature and learn than nobody knows how they will react to a given situation until you are in it.

2. Learn what the terms mean and what impact that they have. For example Blood Doping has nothing to do with taking drugs that make you artificially stronger the way steroids do. At one time it was quite legal and considered to be good science in recovery techniques. Basically you transfuse blood to replace red blood cells lost due to hard training and hard racing. With so many blood borne illnesses using anything but your own blood is not using good judgment. That is what Tyler meant when he said he would not transfuse using another’s blood which is what the accusation was. Blood Doping does not make you artificially stronger and isn’t even needed unless you train or ride hard. Otherwise your red blood cell count does not decline. Bottom-line is blood doping alone does nothing to make you faster or stronger. It allows your body to get the amount of oxygen it would if you hadn’t depleted your red blood cell count through abusing your body the way the pros do.

3. EPO also does not make you stronger or faster like a steroid. It does what Blood Doping does artificially. That is why people on chemo get it. They lose red blood cell count due to the poisoning of their body during chemo and this helps the body replace it faster. (Chemotherapy in essence is poisoning all the cells in your body hoping you kill the cancer cells off before the patient. This is why people get so sick and such things as hair loss occurs. The drugs cannot distinguish healthy vs. cancerous cells the way we hope they may in the future.) So again EPO alone doesn’t make any rider stronger or faster. It aids in and makes recovery of red blood cells much faster.

4. What is legal and not is purely arbitrary. The count numbers they use are not some pure science they hypothesized what seemed about right based on riders etc. and set them. Some people naturally have higher red blood cell counts than others. It was the riders that helped to bring about the rules we talk about today.

5. Nobody knows what they would or would not do to compete unless you are/were there. That is what bothers me. Some Sunday wannabe in his team kit can very easily condemn not even understanding fully what he is so holy about. Yet when he gets home he’ll open a beer (a drug), maybe take an Advil (another drug) and watch TV a third drug :p .

6. I learned a long time ago that thinking you know how you will act and the reality of that circumstance arriving is two different things.

7. Cycling is faster now because the bikes are faster and the riders train and dedicate themselves to the sport as never before. One person said to compare the speeds of the 1980’s to today…THEY WERE BLOOD DOPING LEGALLY IN THE 1980’S. The 1984 US Cycling Team was a huge success due to blood doping. It was legal and again considered good science in a way to recover. The frozen blood Saiz had was no doubt a rider’s blood that was taken when that rider's red blood cell count was normal before heavy training/ racing and was saved to transfuse back into the same rider. This is not legal these days although it was back in the “super clean” 80’s.

Lastly please don’t flame me for stating reality and history. Before you decide to flame me please read the 3 articles in the next post that were very easy to find through Google. There are probably thousands of different articles and research studies that you can read. Once you read them you will know a great deal about the issues involved.

Please do not equate Barry Bonds and what cyclists are doing. It isn’t even close. Barry is accused of taking steroids. Steroids make you artificially bigger and stronger as you work out. Again just taking them doesn’t do much. You take the drug, lift weights and bam you look much different than before. It doesn’t give you the ability to hit a small sphere going 100 mph straight at your body it just makes you a heck of lot stronger when you make contact. Even though I’m not a Bond’s fan if he took steroids it didn’t increase his ability to hit the ball but rather it increased his strength to hit it further. I don’t believe in steroids since they artificially make you something you are not. PLUS they kill you if done too much and too long. To equate transfusing your own blood back in to your body with a dangerous drug that creates artificial growth and strength is ludicrous.

Now I’m off to improve my mind by watching Cheaters. Truly great television. :banana:

[JohnS]

Calfeefly---a few corrections. 1. Riders don't lose bone mass due to the "pounding" they take, but rather the lack of pounding. That's why running/hiking is good crosstraining, it's a weightbearing exercise.
Second. why can't we compare Bonds with cyclists. Yes, he uses different drugs, because different drugs are required than in cycling. And yes, he always had good hand-eye coordination but that's not the controversy. It's his HR totals, which was helped by steroids.

[atmo]

<snipped>

it's perfectly legal to use the pharmaceuticals
at hand to get an advantage. think delgado and
probnecin (sp) or mcgwire and nandro. think
us postal and actevogin (sp). the list goes on.

the hypocrisy come because the great masses
believe than anything from a doctor is cheating.
the fans want to believe that the athletes get
their nutrients from food, not a syringe or an
i.v. drip.

atmo, there is nothing more to all this than that.

[CalfeeFly]

I had to delete a little of the article so it would fit.
Blood Doping In Cycling
By Chad Asplund, MD
EPO is a hormone naturally produced by the kidneys when oxygen supply is low. Thus natural EPO concentrations in the blood increase when a cyclist is anemic, has been training at altitude, or has been exposed to pollution or second-hand cigarette smoke. EPO acts as a signal for the bone marrow to increase the rate at which red blood cells are made and released into the circulation (this can be measured as the reticulocyte count). The increase in number of red blood cells leads to an increased oxygen supply to the tissues throughout the body. This oxygen rich blood then acts as a signal to the kidneys to stop producing EPO keeping the hematocrit within the normal range. It is documented that the endurance process is improved in athletes with an increased red blood cell level, and thus an increased oxygen carrying capacity. This occurs whether the red blood cells are increased via transfusion, or artificially with r-EPO. Improvements in performance are greatest about three weeks after r-EPO injection.
EPO is rapidly cleared from the blood stream, meaning that EPO use three or four days before a urine screen may go undetected. Athletes and trainers have learned to manipulate EPO regimens to dodge drug tests. In response, alternative detection methods have been focused on abnormally high hematocrit levels. In Geneva in 1997, the UCI implemented an upper level of normal for hematocrit of 50%, and 2.4 for the reticulocyte count. Those cyclists testing higher than these levels are then subjected to the more accurate French urine test, which is an indirect test that looks for specific biomechanical properties of synthetic EPO using sophisticated laboratory techniques (gel electrophoresis).
A new development in doping has been the increased prevalence of auto-transfusion (drawing blood from yourself, and replacing it at a later time in an attempt to boost your oxygen carrying capacity). Fear of being caught for EPO use, and awarenes of the difficulty of testing for auto-transfusion, has driven athletes to self-transfusion.
EPO is a genetically-engineered version of a natural hormone made by the kidney that stimulates bone marrow to make red blood cells. synthetic EPO is sold as a rescue medicine for treating anemia in end-stage kidney disease, when production of EPO declines.
Because red blood cells carry oxygen to the muscles, and because bikers need a huge amount of oxygen during their arduous sport, raising the number of red blood cells can -- theoretically -- improve performance. Here's a description of the origin of synthetic EPO.
In the past, bike racers tried to increase the number of red blood cells by removing their own blood, storing it, and transfusing it back just before a race. Nowadays, this gory process of "blood doping" has been replaced by genetic engineering. Athletes simply inject EPO, which causes the body to make the cells.
Since EPO is a naturally ocurring hormone, testing for it would detect anyone, not very helpful for identifying doped athletes. Unable to measure EPO itself, the mandarins of international cycling at Union Cycliste Internationale (UCI) rely on a surrogate test that measures the density of cells in the blood. Blood, as you'll recall, is composed of cells -- mainly red, but also white -- and serum and other liquids that help the cells flow. A study from the 1980s, before synthetic EPO, showed that bike racers' blood averaged a cellular content of 43 percent, so the UCI decreed that anybody with a level above 50 percent would be disqualified for taking EPO.
What is Blood Doping?
Blood doping, often called induced erythrocythemia, is the intravenous infusion of blood to produc an increase in the blood’s oxygen carrying capacity. It is a proedure that begins with between 1 to 4 units of a person’s blood (1 unit = 450 ml of blood) being withdrawn, usually several weeks before a key competition. The blood is then centrifuged and the plasma components are immediately reinfused while the remaining red blood cells are placed in cold storage. The RBC’s are then reinfused back into the body, usually 1 to 7 days before a high endurance event.
When a blood doping procedure is initiated, the packed RBC’s that have been centrifuged can be stored using two different methods. They can either be refrigerated at 4 C or frozen at  80 C. Most of the earlier procedures were done so by using the refrigeration method. The results were semi-successful because of the life cycle of a RBC. The average life span of a RBC is 120 days. Therefore, each day, approximately 1% of any RBC population is lost. Our bodies continuously replace the lost RBC’s , but in blood removed from the body, the number of RBC’s steadily decline, never to be replaced. It usually takes 3 to 8 weeks for a person to re-establish normal RBC levels, so at the time their bodies are ready for reinfusion, only 60% of the removed RBC’s would actually be viable. This is an important point because most of the early testing was done without adequate time being given to re-establish proper RBC levels. Therefore, earlier test subjects were starting out with a deficit of RBC’s. When the removed blood was reinfused, the results were usually very minor or not noticeable at all.
What was needed next was for scientists to find a way to get the maximum amount of RBC’s infused into a subject’s body at the most appropriate time. First, it was determined that by freezing the RBC’s after they were centrifuged you could completely halt the aging process of the cells. This process will allow you to store blood for up to 10 years with only 10% to 15% of the RBC’s being lost. Second, it appeared that in high endurance athletes that it took at least five to six weeks, possibly as long as ten weeks, to re-establish proper amounts of RBC’s. This was based on the time it took for them to return hematocrit and hemoglobin concentrations back to pre-withdrawal levels. These were huge developments in blood doping procedures and most of the later tests have proven to be successful.
It is also possible that blood doping could have effects opposite to those intended. A large infusion of red blood cells (and resulting increase in cellular concentration) could increase blood viscosity and bring about a decrease in cardiac output, a decrease in blood flow velocity, and a reduction in peripheral oxygen content – all of which would reduce aerobic capacity. The human heart was not designed to pump this thickened blood throughout the body and, therefore, could lead to a multitude of problems. Some of the problems that can arise from an autologous blood transfusion are phlebitis, septicemia, hyperviscosity syndrome (including intravascular clotting, heart failure and potential death), bacterial infections, and air/clot embolisms. Even more frightening is the list of diseases that can be contracted through homologous transfusions. They include hepatitis, AIDS, malaria, CMV, and transfusion reactions (characterized by fever, urticaria, and possibly anaphylactic shock). Because of these reactions, among others, homologous blood transfusions are highly discouraged. A great example of a successful blood doping procedure with adverse side effects is of the 1984 United States Olympic cycling team. Previous American cycling teams had not fared well in past Olympic Games. But in the 1984 Los Angeles games, they decided to try blood doping as a way to get an advantage on the competition. The results were a huge success. The team brought home a U.S. cycling team record of nine medals. The problem was not the fact that the athletes had undergone blood doping procedures, but, rather, how the procedure was performed. Between the Olympic trials and the actual games, the Americans did not have adequate time to use their own blood as a transfusion. Instead, they had to rely on the blood of relatives and others with similar blood types. Consequently, some of the cyclists received tainted blood and a short time after the Games contracted hepatitis, a serious liver disease.
After the 1984 Olympic Games, the International Olympic Committee decided to discourage blood doping and, along with the NCAA and American College of Sports Medicine, ruled that "any blood doping procedure used in an attempt to improve athletic performance is unethical, unfair, and exposes the athlete to unwarranted and potentially serious health risks". However, the problem lies with being able to unequivocally detect that an athlete is in fact undergoing blood doping procedures. After all, what constitutes an abnormally high RBC level? Also, how do you distinguish between blood doping athletes and those athletes who boost their hemoglobin levels by training at high altitudes? The answers to both of these questions are very perplexing. As of now, there are no foolproof tests for an athlete who blood dopes. The agencies that have banned this practice will have to rely on the integrity of the athletes, coaches, and their medical support personnel to comply with their ruling.
A new invention by a University of Colorado at Boulder professor only adds to the controversy of blood doping. Igor Gamow, an Associate Professor of Chemical Engineering, has invented a sleep chamber that may enable endurance athletes to, in effect, train while they sleep. The chamber mimics the reduced air pressure of high altitudes and stimulates the production of red blood cells. This enables an athlete training at sea level to gain the same fitness advantage as an athlete living at high altitude. If this chamber is used correctly (six to eight hours a day for two to three weeks) the hemoglobin concentration can be boosted by more than 23%. Because the High Altitude Bed is legal, safe and natural; this procedure of red blood cell enhancement is called Holistic Blood Doping.

[CalfeeFly]

Calfeefly---a few corrections. 1. Riders don't lose bone mass due to the "pounding" they take, but rather the lack of pounding. That's why running/hiking is good crosstraining, it's a weightbearing exercise.
Second. why can't we compare Bonds with cyclists. Yes, he uses different drugs, because different drugs are required than in cycling. And yes, he always had good hand-eye coordination but that's not the controversy. It's his HR totals, which was helped by steroids.

Pounding was a term used to indicate the amount of abuse given the body not contact of the body with the ground. I'm sorry it confused you.

Blood doping does not involve using drugs. Bonds is accused of using drugs to artifically improve his strength. Obviously if you are stronger you'll hit more homeruns I'm sorry that you didn't get that connection.

If you think that Bonds using a drug to become stronger than he could otherwise is the same as a blood transfusion then read the article I posted. You will learn more about the history of blood doping and what is meant by it.

[coylifut]

[QUOTE=CalfeeFly]

ProTour riders demand more of their bodies than they ever were intended to take. Nobody here knows what they would do given the same circumstances.


QUOTE]

C'mon now. If rider A tops off the rbc tank and rider B doesn't because he rightfully knows it's cheating, doesn't A have an unfair advantage over B? Of course he does. With that said, I'm an optimist. There's got to be one clean cyclist that does well on the pro tour.

[JohnS]

The police found more than just the 200 bags of blood. They also found EPO and HGH, which, last time I checked, were drugs.

[coylifut]

Calfy - I'm not sure I get the point of your post. Are you saying, cut these guys some slack, what they are doing is so hard the blood doping (or EPO) is purely for medicinal purposes so they can survive.

Also, is it not un common when a cyclist is busted that other substances are found like HGH, roids...Look at the Museeuw and De Clerq.

I'm still of the mind that these substances are taken to gain an advantage and they wouldn't risk the health implications and the consequences of getting caught if they didn't provide the advantage.

[Kevan]

have been discussing the establishment of a new start-up team, to take on any innocent riders who got caught up in this fallout, such as Vino, and offer them the chance to race on our squad in this year's tour, assuming we get everything arranged in time. I'm currently working to establish additional co-sponsorships, put together a management team, and a host of other major concerns I'm only now discovering a team needs.

Sandy is currently looking for a dog to be our team mascot.

[Johny]

I.....
Now I’m off to improve my mind by watching Cheaters. Truly great television. :banana:

Just got an email from Lance:
"Hey Johny,

Please say thanks to CalfeeFly for his kind words. I'm sorry that I don't ride Calfee's as Craig does not feed my little piggies.

Now I’m off to watch American Idol. Truly great television. :banana:

Lance"

[CalfeeFly]

Calfy - I'm not sure I get the point of your post. Are you saying, cut these guys some slack, what they are doing is so hard the blood doping (or EPO) is purely for medicinal purposes so they can survive.

Also, is it not un common when a cyclist is busted that other substances are found like HGH, roids...Look at the Museeuw and De Clerq.

I'm still of the mind that these substances are taken to gain an advantage and they wouldn't risk the health implications and the consequences of getting caught if they didn't provide the advantage.

The point was not to condone blood doping. It was just purely to point out what blood doping is and is not. Second was to explain what EPO does and does not. To equate this with steroid use and to equate cyclists with Barry Bonds or juiced up football players does not make sense. Whether anything is cheating or not depends on the rules. In one decade blood doping was legal and in another it is not legal. Both EPO and blood doping make recovery of red blood cell depletion from riding hard either training or racing faster. That is it...nothing more or less. Today they say it is illegal to recover faster in these two ways. That is all it is about. Neither will make a person a better cyclist just a more quickly recovered cyclist from hard training and racing.

[JohnS]

Wouldn't it also give you more oxygen-carrying red blood cells during the race?

[coylifut]

Both EPO and blood doping make recovery of red blood cell depletion from riding hard either training or racing faster. That is it...nothing more or less. Today they say it is illegal to recover faster in these two ways. That is all it is about. Neither will make a person a better cyclist just a more quickly recovered cyclist from hard training and racing.

Ok. I understand. Your take is that cyclists don't use these methods to increase their RBC to go faster, just to recover faster so they can go fast again sooner.

[Johny]

Steroids, HGH, EPO, blood doping and whatever are only a part of that gestalt thing...like rake number is only one part of bicycle design.

[bcm119]

Neither will make a person a better cyclist just a more quickly recovered cyclist from hard training and racing.
But that makes you a better cyclist. Thats the bottom line...it doesn't matter exactly how it works. We all know EPO and 'roids work differently.

[CalfeeFly]

My post is not to condone blood doping...just to explain it. There is so much emotion and misconception on the issue I wanted to help clear up some of the misconceptions.

As long as the rules prohibit it then it is cheating. If the rules change then it isn't. :bike:

[andy mac]

i think that's how many top athletes can live with 'cheating'.

"what i take doesn't make me faster, stronger etc, it just enables me to recover better so i can train harder. i still have to do the work."

:rolleyes:

[William]

I had to delete a little of the article so it would fit.
Blood Doping In Cycling
By Chad Asplund, MD
EPO is a hormone naturally produced by the kidneys when oxygen supply is low Thus natural EPO concentrations in the blood increase when a cyclist is anemic, has been training at altitude, or has been exposed to pollution or second-hand cigarette smoke EPO acts as a signal for the bone marrow to increase the rate at which red blood cells are made and released into the circulation (this can be measured as the reticulocyte count) The increase in number of red blood cells leads to an increased oxygen supply to the tissues throughout the body This oxygen rich blood then acts as a signal to the kidneys to stop producing EPO keeping the hematocrit within the normal range It is documented that the endurance process is improved in athletes with an increased red blood cell level, and thus an increased oxygen carrying capacity. This occurs whether the red blood cells are increased via transfusion, or artificially with r-EPO Improvements in performance are greatest about three weeks after r-EPO injection
EPO is rapidly cleared from the blood stream, meaning that EPO use three or four days before a urine screen may go undetected Athletes and trainers have learned to manipulate EPO regimens to dodge drug tests In response, alternative detection methods have been focused on abnormally high hematocrit levels In Geneva in 1997, the UCI implemented an upper level of normal for hematocrit of 50%, and 2.4 for the reticulocyte count Those cyclists testing higher than these levels are then subjected to the more accurate French urine test, which is an indirect test that looks for specific biomechanical properties of synthetic EPO using sophisticated laboratory techniques (gel electrophoresis)
A new development in doping has been the increased prevalence of auto-transfusion (drawing blood from yourself, and replacing it at a later time in an attempt to boost your oxygen carrying capacity). Fear of being caught for EPO use, and awarenes of the difficulty of testing for auto-transfusion, has driven athletes to self-transfusion
EPO is a genetically-engineered version of a natural hormone made by the kidney that stimulates bone marrow to make red blood cells synthetic EPO is sold as a rescue medicine for treating anemia in end-stage kidney disease, when production of EPO declines
Because red blood cells carry oxygen to the muscles, and because bikers need a huge amount of oxygen during their arduous sport, raising the number of red blood cells can -- theoretically -- improve performance. Here's a description of the origin of synthetic EPO
In the past, bike racers tried to increase the number of red blood cells by removing their own blood, storing it, and transfusing it back just before a race. Nowadays, this gory process of "blood doping" has been replaced by genetic engineering. Athletes simply inject EPO, which causes the body to make the cells
Since EPO is a naturally ocurring hormone, testing for it would detect anyone, not very helpful for identifying doped athletes. Unable to measure EPO itself, the mandarins of international cycling at Union Cycliste Internationale (UCI) rely on a surrogate test that measures the density of cells in the blood Blood, as you'll recall, is composed of cells -- mainly red, but also white -- and serum and other liquids that help the cells flow A study from the 1980s, before synthetic EPO, showed that bike racers' blood averaged a cellular content of 43 percent, so the UCI decreed that anybody with a level above 50 percent would be disqualified for taking EPO
What is Blood Doping Blood doping, often called induced erythrocythemia, is the intravenous infusion of blood to produc an increase in the blood’s oxygen carrying capacity It is a proedure that begins with between 1 to 4 units of a person’s blood (1 unit = 450 ml of blood) being withdrawn, usually several weeks before a key competition. The blood is then centrifuged and the plasma components are immediately reinfused while the remaining red blood cells are placed in cold storage The RBC’s are then reinfused back into the body, usually 1 to 7 days before a high endurance even
When a blood doping procedure is initiated, the packed RBC’s that have been centrifuged can be stored using two different methods They can either be refrigerated at 4 C or frozen at  80 C Most of the earlier procedures were done so by using the refrigeration method The results were semi-successful because of the life cycle of a RBC The average life span of a RBC is 120 days Therefore, each day, approximately 1% of any RBC population is lost Our bodies continuously replace the lost RBC’s , but in blood removed from the body, the number of RBC’s steadily decline, never to be replaced It usually takes 3 to 8 weeks for a person to re-establish normal RBC levels, so at the time their bodies are ready for reinfusion, only 60% of the removed RBC’s would actually be viable. This is an important point because most of the early testing was done without adequate time being given to re-establish proper RBC levels. Therefore, earlier test subjects were starting out with a deficit of RBC’s When the removed blood was reinfused, the results were usually very minor or not noticeable at all What was needed next was for scientists to find a way to get the maximum amount of RBC’s infused into a subject’s body at the most appropriate time First, it was determined that by freezing the RBC’s after they were centrifuged you could completely halt the aging process of the cells This process will allow you to store blood for up to 10 years with only 10% to 15% of the RBC’s being lost. Second, it appeared that in high endurance athletes that it took at least five to six weeks, possibly as long as ten weeks, to re-establish proper amounts of RBC’s This was based on the time it took for them to return hematocrit and hemoglobin concentrations back to pre-withdrawal levels These were huge developments in blood doping procedures and most of the later tests have proven to be successful.
It is also possible that blood doping could have effects opposite to those intended. A large infusion of red blood cells (and resulting increase in cellular concentration) could increase blood viscosity and bring about a decrease in cardiac output, a decrease in blood flow velocity, and a reduction in peripheral oxygen content – all of which would reduce aerobic capacity The human heart was not designed to pump this thickened blood throughout the body and, therefore, could lead to a multitude of problems Some of the problems that can arise from an autologous blood transfusion are phlebitis, septicemia, hyperviscosity syndrome (including intravascular clotting, heart failure and potential death), bacterial infections, and air/clot embolisms Even more frightening is the list of diseases that can be contracted through homologous transfusions They include hepatitis, AIDS, malaria, CMV, and transfusion reactions (characterized by fever, urticaria, and possibly anaphylactic shock). Because of these reactions, among others, homologous blood transfusions are highly discouraged. A great example of a successful blood doping procedure with adverse side effects is of the 1984 United States Olympic cycling team. Previous American cycling teams had not fared well in past Olympic Games But in the 1984 Los Angeles games, they decided to try blood doping as a way to get an advantage on the competition. The results were a huge success The team brought home a U.S. cycling team record of nine medals. The problem was not the fact that the athletes had undergone blood doping procedures, but, rather, how the procedure was performed Between the Olympic trials and the actual games, the Americans did not have adequate time to use their own blood as a transfusion Instead, they had to rely on the blood of relatives and others with similar blood types Consequently, some of the cyclists received tainted blood and a short time after the Games contracted hepatitis, a serious liver disease
After the 1984 Olympic Games, the International Olympic Committee decided to discourage blood doping and, along with the NCAA and American College of Sports Medicine, ruled that "any blood doping procedure used in an attempt to improve athletic performance is unethical, unfair, and exposes the athlete to unwarranted and potentially serious health risks" However, the problem lies with being able to unequivocally detect that an athlete is in fact undergoing blood doping procedures After all, what constitutes an abnormally high RBC level Also, how do you distinguish between blood doping athletes and those athletes who boost their hemoglobin levels by training at high altitudes The answers to both of these questions are very perplexing As of now, there are no foolproof tests for an athlete who blood dopes The agencies that have banned this practice will have to rely on the integrity of the athletes, coaches, and their medical support personnel to comply with their ruling A new invention by a University of Colorado at Boulder professor only adds to the controversy of blood doping Igor Gamow, an Associate Professor of Chemical Engineering, has invented a sleep chamber that may enable endurance athletes to, in effect, train while they sleep The chamber mimics the reduced air pressure of high altitudes and stimulates the production of red blood cells This enables an athlete training at sea level to gain the same fitness advantage as an athlete living at high altitude If this chamber is used correctly (six to eight hours a day for two to three weeks) the hemoglobin concentration can be boosted by more than 23% Because the High Altitude Bed is legal, safe and natural; this procedure of red blood cell enhancement is called Holistic Blood Doping.


Wow! Informative, but that was the mother of all run-ons.



William ;)

[Ray]

However, isolating the improvements due to training techniques from those due to drug use/technology is impossible. To say its only the drugs or only the training is wrong, its an unknown combination of each.

Ahhh, Gestalt :argue:

There's SO MUCH FRIGGIN' grey area with this stuff. EPO and oxygen tents do largely the same thing, but get there differently. One is legal (for now), one isn't (for now?). How many vitamins and minerals are taken for 'recovery' that could easily be made illegal. Very fine line between performance enhancement and recovery - doesn't faster and better recovery enhance performance in a multi-day event? Waaaay back near the start of my youth, Anquetil noted that only a fool would imagine it was possible to ride Bordeaux-Paris on just water. And he wasn't just talking about Gatoraid. Does anyone think very much has changed in pro cycling since then other than the technology and the drugs available? With so much pressure to win in the pro ranks and so many riders who obviously DO dope, you just about either have to join them or quit the game altogether. I suspect most riders have done the former and a few the latter. I'm sure there are some riding clean, but I doubt they're more than domestiques and I doubt they're doing 3-week races.

The bottom line for me is that I like watching racing even understanding all of this. I assume all sucessful riders are doping to some extent, whether they're all breaking the current rules or not. I assume it's a basically level playing field. I dig watching Ivan Basso fly up mountains because I fully understand that with all of the drugs known to man, the best nutrition available, and an extraordinary training program, I'd still barely be able to RIDE some of those mountains, let alone do it at even half of his speed. Regardless of the help he uses to get there, it's inspiring to watch a physical marvel do amazing things. Like Alan Iverson moving through defenses at warp speed.

I can't condone it or decry it. I wish they were all clean but I don't expect it'll EVER happen. So I just accept it and still watch. Like I do with football, basketball, etc.

-Ray

[zeroking17]

<snip>
The bottom line for me is that I like watching racing even understanding all of this. I assume all sucessful riders are doping to some extent, whether they're all breaking the current rules or not. I assume it's a basically level playing field. I dig watching Ivan Basso fly up mountains because I fully understand that with all of the drugs known to man, the best nutrition available, and an extraordinary training program, I'd still barely be able to RIDE some of those mountains, let alone do it at even half of his speed.
<snip>

-Ray

Exactly!


.

[atmo]

snipped:
With so much pressure to win in the pro ranks and so many riders who obviously DO dope, you just about either have to join them or quit the game altogether. <cut> most riders have done the former and a few the latter. I assume all sucessful riders are doping to some extent, whether they're all breaking the current rules or not.


pearls of wisdom from a man with funkadelic initials.
furthermore, why tf does anyone even care about this??

[bcm119]

the training advancements that have been made in the last twenty years are small steps forward on something that was already figured out.

its dope, bro.

Yeah but those small steps have a pretty great effect. They figured stuff out in 1982, but they have more recently learned to apply it more effectively, no? They figured out how to individualize training and listen to athletes bodies instead of running a training camp like a catholic school. I'd say its partly the dope, bro.

[malcolm]

Actually blood doping and epo will increase your red cell mass above your native or natural state thus improving your oxygen carrying capacity and giving you an advantage over a similarly trained athlete without the increase in red cells. I think this is the performance advantage not so much the recovery aspect. Too much and you start to have viscosity problems and that coupled with low resting heart rates and you have dead athletes. This is why they check hemoglobin and when it is above a certain level, probably around 15-16 they become suspicious.

[Elefantino]

I've read through this thread and am somewhat depressed.

My bottom line: The box has been opened and can never be closed. We had a Russian man who grew breasts win an Olympic shot put. Then steroids. Now EPO, HGH. Soon it will be gene doping.

There are probably many cyclists in the peleton who are clean.

And they don't win.