Hors Cat Pivot Question

[Gat64]

I was just mounting my 2001 Hors Categorie Serotta to a Kickr trainer and noticed that there is lateral movement at the pivot points. I have never noticed this before, but maybe this would be hard to detect with wheels.

The movement is very little, maybe a 1mm at most.

I checked the bolts, and they are tight. Is this normal? Part of the design? I really hope so, because I LOVE this bike!

[Ken Robb]

Maybe the quick release eliminates any lateral movement? Is it wise to use a really nice frame you love in a trainer? I know nothing about such devices.

[regularguy412]

................waiting for DK to chime in on this one. But I'm with Ken -- if you have the option to use a, well, less-special bike on a trainer,, it is wise to do so. That's where my 'old' bikes go -- trainer and rollers service. I 'could' ride my trainer bike outside, but I'd rather not. My 'indoor' bikes suffer mightily from my caustic sweat.

Mike in AR:beer:

[Gat64]

Maybe the quick release eliminates any lateral movement? Is it wise to use a really nice frame you love in a trainer? I know nothing about such devices.

Skewer has no effect because it clamps the chain stays while the seat stays connect through the pivot. I am thinking that it was designed with a little lateral movement for free-pivot motion. I think later with other models Serotta started to use bearing cartridges.

Yeah... I usually use an old Bianchi (campy 6sp Neuvo Record) on my trainer, but the new Kickr uses a connection via it's own freehub, so I am about to use the Hors... I think the titanium can take it... ;)

[bicycletricycle]

those pivots wear and need to be replaced .

a special tool for those crazy bolts and some new berings are required.

may be hard to find these days.

[Gat64]

those pivots wear and need to be replaced .

a special tool for those crazy bolts and some new berings are required.

may be hard to find these days.

For mine, you just undo the bolt (4mm allen) and inside there is only a brass sleeve/bushing and that's it! No special tools - maybe I should just replace the bushing - just hope it is a standard size. I would assume the bolt is stainless, so that should last forever.

[Gat64]

Pictures would probably be useful...

[CSTRider]

Those look exactly like the same bronze bushings that are used on my Serotta Colorado Soft Tail (CST) mountain bike. I've replaced them once in 15 years, although the CST hasn't seen as much action since i got my full suspension Trek Remedy about 5 years ago.

[Gat64]

Those look exactly like the same bronze bushings that are used on my Serotta Colorado Soft Tail (CST) mountain bike. I've replaced them once in 15 years, although the CST hasn't seen as much action since i got my full suspension Trek Remedy about 5 years ago.

Was the bushing a standard size or did you get the part from Serotta?

[Gat64]

Ok - just looked at the parts again, it seems the washers have a rubber inner ring. I have never seen this type of washer before - and not easy to find I would imagine. All I could find through google images is below. The pivot version has a wider metal section.

There are two washers each side, sandwiching the seat stay connection.

[93legendti]

This thread might help you:

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=144280&highlight=bearings

[bicycletricycle]

Cool
I guess I was thinking if some of the late model ones I have seen that have a crazy lookin bolt

McMaster Carr has got lots of bronze bearings, maybe an of the shelf one will work

[Gat64]

Cool
I guess I was thinking if some of the late model ones I have seen that have a crazy lookin bolt

McMaster Carr has got lots of bronze bearings, maybe an of the shelf one will work

Thanks - I will look into them. Yes, I remember the ones you were thinking about - they had an interesting star pattern bolt.

[Cicli]

Ok - just looked at the parts again, it seems the washers have a rubber inner ring. I have never seen this type of washer before - and not easy to find I would imagine. All I could find through google images is below. The pivot version has a wider metal section.

There are two washers each side, sandwiching the seat stay connection.

Those washers are nothing special. They are gaskets for banjo bolt fittings.

[David Kirk]

There should be no lateral free-play in the pivot and if there is some I suspect wear in the sealing thrust washers and/or the bronze bushing.

I designed the system to use commonly available parts and none of the hardware is proprietary. Both the thrust washers and the bushing were common parts available from McMaster-Carr at the time and I no reason to suspect that that has changed over time. I don't have the parts numbers but if you invest some time into the search on the McMaster site I suspect you will find them no problem.


dave

[Gat64]

There should be no lateral free-play in the pivot and if there is some I suspect wear in the sealing thrust washers and/or the bronze bushing.

I designed the system to use commonly available parts and none of the hardware is proprietary. Both the thrust washers and the bushing were common parts available from McMaster-Carr at the time and I no reason to suspect that that has changed over time. I don't have the parts numbers but if you invest some time into the search on the McMaster site I suspect you will find them no problem.


dave

Thanks Dave, this really helps. I will take some measurements and replace the parts for hopefully another 14 years of comfortable, high traction riding!

[David Kirk]

Thanks Dave, this really helps. I will take some measurements and replace the parts for hopefully another 14 years of comfortable, high traction riding!

Cool - have fun!

dave

[Formulasaab]

Dave,
We now have a Hors Categorie in the family (just bought a CX one here on the forum for my wife) and I was wondering, is there a service recommendation for these bushings?

Grease or oil?
Are the bushings oillite or plain bronze?

Thanks.

[David Kirk]

Dave,
We now have a Hors Categorie in the family (just bought a CX one here on the forum for my wife) and I was wondering, is there a service recommendation for these bushings?

Grease or oil?
Are the bushings oillite or plain bronze?

Thanks.

I think both oilite and and plain bronze were used with little to no difference in performance or durability.

I think grease is the way to go and as long as they are kept fairly clean it should last a very long time. If they are used in lots of slop and hosed off often you might redo the grease more often as needed.

dave

[Formulasaab]

Thank you. That'll help me keep it tuned up and riding smooth for her!

[Gat64]

Ok, so after some measuring and searching on the McMaster-Carr website (www.mcmaster.com), these are the parts required for the Hors Cat pivots:

Pressure-Sealing Washer part #: 93783A030
OD: .601
ID: 0.301

Stainless Shoulder Screw part #: 94035A301
Shoulder OD: 5/16"
Shoulder length: 1/4"
Socket drive

Multi-Purpose Sleeve bearing part number: 6381K426
OD: 3/8"
Length: 3/8"
For shaft diameter: 5/16"

Hopefully this can be future reference for fellow Hors Cats!

[weisan]

Hopefully this can be future reference for fellow Hors Cats!

Gat pal, thanks for leaving behind your legacy. :D

[93legendti]

Ok, so after some measuring and searching on the McMaster-Carr website (www.mcmaster.com), these are the parts required for the Hors Cat pivots:

Pressure-Sealing Washer part #: 93783A030
OD: .601
ID: 0.301

Stainless Shoulder Screw part #: 94035A301
Shoulder OD: 5/16"
Shoulder length: 1/4"
Socket drive

Multi-Purpose Sleeve bearing part number: 6381K426
OD: 3/8"
Length: 3/8"
For shaft diameter: 5/16"

Hopefully this can be future reference for fellow Hors Cats!
Thank you!

[Gat64]

So I got all the parts in and success! Parts replaced and no more lateral play! Should be good for the next 25K Km!! :banana:

The culprit was the bushing - the old one had actually elongated by 0.006 inch, but I guess it was all it needed to cause the lateral play. The elongated bushing caused the two washers to sandwich the pivot area such that it was too wide, thus causing the seat stay section to float without be held by the washer sandwich.

See the pictures below which shows the difference between the new and old bushing.
New: 0.373"
Old: 0.379"