OT: crime and American exceptionalism - bike related

[eddief]

This was posted to my bike club mail list. A truly hair-raising story.Trying to find out who the victim is. Local neighborhoods where we ride all the time:

On Friday Oct. 30th our house at *** was burglarized between 10am and 12pm. The burglar entered through a sliding glass door near accessed by stairs along the side of the house and used a glass cutting tool to cut through the door and undo the lock. They took small valuable items like electronics and jewelry.

Just two days later I was riding my bike home from UC Berkeley where I work as postdoctoral researcher and was going past the 1800 block of Tunnel Road at 6:45pm on Sunday Nov. 1st.* A car (early 2000s model compact sedan, maybe a Honda Civic, light colored, maybe white) pulled along next to me with two black males in their 20s. The passenger rolled down his window and asked me for directions to Skyline Blvd. I stopped and was giving them directions. They acted as though they were lost and late for something.

They ask me for the time and when I looked down at my watch the passenger open the door and pointed a gun at me and yelled at me to give them my backpack. He pulled the backpack off me and then wanted my phone which was in my bike jersey pocket. He patted me down as I tried to indicate where the phone was. After getting my phone he took my bike and threw it over the guard rail where it skidded about 100 feet down the hillside. Before getting back into the car he gave me a hard shove and flipped me over the guard rail. I received some minor scrapes on my elbow and legs. They then drove away quickly continuing up Tunnel Rd. I lost my wallet, keys, phone, checkbook, laptop, and some clothes.*

In the few months I've lived here it has seemed like a very safe area. I was shocked that even one of these things happened, let alone two in the same weekend. I have filed police reports for both events.

Be Careful, be alert, *Earlier last week another bicyclist was robbed by Grizzly and Skyline...by people asking for directions! *

[mg2ride]

I can't tell, is he implying the 2 events are related?

[Cicli]

Wow!

I dont carry anything with me when I ride. Unless they want a nice patch kit.

[eddief]

I think they are not related except that his luck is horrible and they both took place in a world of sh*t.

I can't tell, is he implying the 2 events are related?

[Louis]

Unfortunately, the NRA loves this sort of thing.

[eddief]

I would love to surprise those robbers by taking a gun out my jersey pocket...but I sold my Glock (inherited from my dad)...which I did not know how to use anyway.

Unfortunately, the NRA loves this sort of thing.

[brockd15]

Wow, that's crazy.
Thankfully he got out of it with just some scrapes, could have been much worse.

[Tickdoc]

Crazy but not unlikely.

I have seen a jersey similar to this one before

http://www.sharethedamnroad.com/sites/default/files/STDRoE_0.jpg

[weaponsgrade]

Wow, that's a scary story. My place also got broken into a few days ago. I have a gated entrance where I keep my grocery bike and bike trailer for the kids. Someone pried open the gate, popped the lock, and took the kids bike trailer. For some reason they left the grocery bike. Kinda odd, but I'll take it. I've got a u-lock on the gate now until I can get the thing replaced.

[fuzzalow]

OT: crime and American exceptionalism - bike related

Forgive me, but I cannot make heads or tails about what the title of this thread is referring to. The juxtaposition completely eludes me.

What's described here is a terrible sign of the times. Petty crimes for petty criminals - nuthin' exceptional about that. And it is reflective of a coarsening of the times. We as a nation have need to be concerned for where things are headed.

[ultraman6970]

Man this sucks :(

What sucks the most is that cr@p like this turns into racial profiling issue really quick.

Waiting for the day Judge Dreed turns in the streets for crimes like this.

[eddief]

Cynical, pessimistic, sarcastic, satirical imply holding a low opinion of humanity. Cynical suggests a disbelief in the sincerity of human motives: cynical about honesty. Pessimistic implies a more or less habitual disposition to look on the dark side of things, and to believe that the worst will happen: pessimistic as to the future. Sarcastic refers to sneering or making cutting jibes: sarcastic about a profession of faith.

OT: crime and American exceptionalism - bike related

Forgive me, but I cannot make heads or tails about what the title of this thread is referring to. The juxtaposition completely eludes me.

What's described here is a terrible sign of the times. Petty crimes for petty criminals - nuthin' exceptional about that. And it is reflective of a coarsening of the times. We as a nation have need to be concerned for where things are headed.

[Louis]

If bicycles with guns are outlawed, then only outlaws will have bicycles.

Just don't go over the bars. Plus, you won't ever have to worry about shifting the chain into the spokes.

http://i1256.photobucket.com/albums/ii481/Lance_Miller1/MtBike.jpg

[cmg]

this is why when riding solo i never stop, lights, stop signs, lost drivers, never. only if i have a flat and then i act or i am probably pissed. when some body asks for directions and i just point and yell. glad it didn't go south on you.

[Ken Robb]

I'd worry that crooks might just run me off the road while I'm riding and then rob me without the ruse of asking for directions.

[FlashUNC]

I would love to surprise those robbers by taking a gun out my jersey pocket...but I sold my Glock (inherited from my dad)...which I did not know how to use anyway.

Methinks a gun in that situation, when you're already at a disadvantage, would only escalate, rather than de-escalate the situation.

You can replace stuff. Even a bike thrown into a ravine on Tunnel.

[txcid05]

Unfortunately, the NRA loves this sort of thing.

Not sure I comprehend the logic here.....so you're supposed to accept being robbed? Or having protection would be naughty? The NRA DOES like this sort of thing, it's marketing. Wouldn't you? Seems damn lucrative if you ask me!

[oldpotatoe]

I would love to surprise those robbers by taking a gun out my jersey pocket...but I sold my Glock (inherited from my dad)...which I did not know how to use anyway.

You wrote, "They ask me for the time and when I looked down at my watch the passenger open the door and pointed a gun at me"....

The guy is holding a gun on you and you want to take a gun out of your jersey pocket...great way to read about you in the Obits.

I am not a gun freak my any measure but you have to pick your 'battles'.

[93legendti]

This happened in California...might be reasonable to first look at California's policies if you're looking to tar and feather...

[parallelfish]

Unfortunately, the NRA loves this sort of thing.

Pure slander.

[buldogge]

Perhaps...

...but, even more so, the gun manufacturers who prop up the NRA love it!

Every time there is a major "gun incident" the public goes hog wild making purchases because the NRA constantly pushes "the fear" that the gubiment is coming to "take your guns"...so, of course, you need to buy more guns.

Small (in the scheme of things) incidents are just a personalized version of this marketing. Read the NRA narratives.

Perfectly logical.

-Mark in St. Louis

Pure slander.

Unfortunately, the NRA loves this sort of thing.

[Louis]

Pure slander.

And if you think companies like LifeLock don't love it when prominent stories of identity theft make the news, or if home alarm systems companies don't love property crime, I have news for you. Gotta keep the population scared.

I've read the stories and editorials in the gun magazines ("single mom defends her home and two children from home invasion" - good thing she was packing!). The evidence is out there to be seen. Of course all they use is anecdotal evidence, while actively working to prevent federal and local law enforcement from gathering real scientific data to study the impact of guns.

[Bruce K]

Not going to let this be another gun discussion

But, pulling a gun when faced with a gun is definitely not the best decision

This isn't the Wild West

BK

[SlackMan]

Perhaps...

Every time there is a major "gun incident" the public goes hog wild making purchases because the NRA constantly pushes "the fear" that the gubiment is coming to "take your guns"...so, of course, you need to buy more guns.
....

Perfectly logical.

-Mark in St. Louis

Maybe you didn't notice, but recently both President Obama and Hillary Clinton made reference (very positively) to when Australia confiscated guns from its citizens. So, maybe "the fear" and "take you guns" shouldn't be in quotes?

[soulspinner]

this is why when riding solo i never stop, lights, stop signs, lost drivers, never. only if i have a flat and then i act or i am probably pissed. when some body asks for directions and i just point and yell. glad it didn't go south on you.

yup I do this also, not stopping for anyone alone....

[parallelfish]

Perhaps...

...but, even more so, the gun manufacturers who prop up the NRA love it!


This is just as dishonest as the original statement. Neither the NRA members, nor those involved in firearms manufacturing, love to see stories of innocent people being assulted by criminals.

[djg21]

Wow!

I dont carry anything with me when I ride. Unless they want a nice patch kit.

I started carrying a Kimber Pepperblaster (http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=pepperblaster+ii+by+kimber&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=83149290654&hvpos=1t1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=4748985855269956914&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=t&ref=pd_sl_5n9opah3a_b_p3) for other reasons. I'm not sure it would have helped in the circumstances described above, and if the cyclist had one in his pocket, it likely would have been used by the perps on him. Pretty scary stuff.

[djg21]

Not going to let this be another gun discussion

But, pulling a gun when faced with a gun is definitely not the best decision

This isn't the Wild West

BK

If the cyclist had a gun, it would have been taken from him and sold or used illegally. Who knows what would have happened to the cyclist.

[AJM100]

gotta size people up before you stop and assist these days . . .

as others have said, I don't stop alone . . .

:no:

[eddief]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnWFJZkdB8Y

[oldpotatoe]

Pure slander.

hardly....

[oldpotatoe]

Maybe you didn't notice, but recently both President Obama and Hillary Clinton made reference (very positively) to when Australia confiscated guns from its citizens. So, maybe "the fear" and "take you guns" shouldn't be in quotes?

The government doesn't even know who HAS guns. Do some research about what happens to your name after you do the quickie background check and if you do buy the thing. There is NO government gun registry..maybe should be but there isn't now.

[oldpotatoe]

This is just as dishonest as the original statement. Neither the NRA members, nor those involved in firearms manufacturing, love to see stories of innocent people being assaulted by criminals.

righto...

[ajhapps]

Yikes, scary stuff man. Having moved to the Bay Area in the past year and a half, I do think that the crime rates are escalating to crazy levels vs. any other big city I've lived in. Sadly, I get the sense that the state and various cities have zero appetite to stop those kinds of incidents. But hey, the weather is great!

Seriously, though, be careful out there. It was just stuff that they got, so glad you're ok.

[SlackMan]

The government doesn't even know who HAS guns. Do some research about what happens to your name after you do the quickie background check and if you do buy the thing. There is NO government gun registry..maybe should be but there isn't now.

I get that, but if the government makes it a felony to own guns (or certain classes of guns that are now legal), it will be very risky not to turn them over. That is beside the point I was trying to make, which is that when some people talk about the government wanting to take away guns, there are in fact some in power or close to power who have in fact spoken very favorably about when another country's government did that. Thus, it is not crazy, paranoid nonsense to fear that.

[parris]

It sounds like the cyclist may not have been as aware as he could've been. First the car pulling up and the occupants asking for "directions". Then they ask the time. Finally the victim doesn't realize the door's being opened till he's looking at the muzzle of a firearm. Sorry he got taken but where I work some of these things are called "clues". (snark intended)

As far as what SlackMan states about taking firearms or classes of firearms, our wonderful gov in NY did just that a couple of years ago with the safe act. He pushed it through and made a number of things illegal to own after a certain date. He gave I believe a year to turn things in or otherwise dispose of them out of state. There was not grandfather clause in the law. The law was so quickly implemented that it had to be amended in order for law enforcement not to break it with magazine capacity and their patrol rifles.

[oldpotatoe]

I get that, but if the government makes it a felony to own guns (or certain classes of guns that are now legal), it will be very risky not to turn them over. That is beside the point I was trying to make, which is that when some people talk about the government wanting to take away guns, there are in fact some in power or close to power who have in fact spoken very favorably about when another country's government did that. Thus, it is not crazy, paranoid nonsense to fear that.

Oh please. Do you really think this would happen? The 2nd amendment groupies would smile and arm up. Government tyranny by definition.

So what...look around at US politics and policies, yes, IMHO, it is very paranoid.

The government isn't going to make your guns illegal, take your guns, declare martial law...blah, blah. Regardless of what those in Texas think.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/04/29/jade-helm-15-a-military-simulation-draws-scrutiny-and-wild-speculation-in-texas/

tin hat, black helicopter stuff.

[93legendti]

http://www.mediaite.com/online/new-york-gov-andrew-cuomo-on-gun-control-confiscation-could-be-an-option/


"The governor then laid out several ideas for how the state would enforce stricter laws on those so-called assault weapons: comfiscation could be an option. Mandatory sale to the state could be an option."


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ev6CDSo6Oio

"If I could've gotten 51 votes in the Senate of the United States for an outright ban, picking up every one of them -- Mr. and Mrs. America, turn 'em all in -- I would've done it. I could not do that, the votes weren't here,"?


http://www.vox.com/2015/8/27/9212725/australia-buyback

"Hillary Clinton praised Australia's gun control measures, which seized 650,000 guns"


http://freebeacon.com/issues/clinton-australian-style-gun-control-worth-considering-for-u-s/

'Hillary Clinton said that a gun buyback measure similar to the one implemented in Australia would be worth considering at the national level on Friday.
Clinton was asked at a New Hampshire town hall whether she thought an Australian-style policy could be implemented in the U.S. Recently, Australia managed to get away, or take away tens of thousands, millions of handguns. In one year, they were all gone. Can we do that? If we can't, why can't we? A New Hampshire man asked Clinton.
"I think that is worth considering. I do not know enough detail to tell you how we would do it, or how would it work, but certainly your example is worth looking at, Clinton said.'

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/19/california-gun-confiscation-bill_n_3117238.html


"Because gun-confiscating agents do not obtain search warrants, their job involves convincing people to let them into their homes and hand over their guns. If an individual does turn over a gun, he or she can be arrested on suspicion of illegally owning a firearm.
Over the past five years, agents conducting twice-weekly sweeps have confiscated more than 10,000 guns. Using the $24 million from SB 140, the California DOJ says it would take three years to catch up with the backlog of confiscated illegal guns."

[velomonkey]

I do think that the crime rates are escalating to crazy levels vs. any other big city I've lived in.

The rental and real estate levels have escalated to crazy levels - crime - not so much. SF only need look at Chicago, Baltimore, New Orleans to see what crazy crime levels look like. SF is at average 'city' crime levels and they are almost the same as Boston per capita. All in all SF is on the safe side of cities.

[oldpotatoe]

http://www.mediaite.com/online/new-york-gov-andrew-cuomo-on-gun-control-confiscation-could-be-an-option/


"The governor then laid out several ideas for how the state would enforce stricter laws on those so-called assault weapons: comfiscation could be an option. Mandatory sale to the state could be an option."


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ev6CDSo6Oio

"If I could've gotten 51 votes in the Senate of the United States for an outright ban, picking up every one of them -- Mr. and Mrs. America, turn 'em all in -- I would've done it. I could not do that, the votes weren't here,"?


http://www.vox.com/2015/8/27/9212725/australia-buyback

"Hillary Clinton praised Australia's gun control measures, which seized 650,000 guns"


http://freebeacon.com/issues/clinton-australian-style-gun-control-worth-considering-for-u-s/

'Hillary Clinton said that a gun buyback measure similar to the one implemented in Australia would be worth considering at the national level on Friday.
Clinton was asked at a New Hampshire town hall whether she thought an Australian-style policy could be implemented in the U.S. Recently, Australia managed to get away, or take away tens of thousands, millions of handguns. In one year, they were all gone. Can we do that? If we can't, why can't we? A New Hampshire man asked Clinton.
"I think that is worth considering. I do not know enough detail to tell you how we would do it, or how would it work, but certainly your example is worth looking at, Clinton said.'

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/19/california-gun-confiscation-bill_n_3117238.html


"Because gun-confiscating agents do not obtain search warrants, their job involves convincing people to let them into their homes and hand over their guns. If an individual does turn over a gun, he or she can be arrested on suspicion of illegally owning a firearm.
Over the past five years, agents conducting twice-weekly sweeps have confiscated more than 10,000 guns. Using the $24 million from SB 140, the California DOJ says it would take three years to catch up with the backlog of confiscated illegal guns."


Better repeal 2nd amendment first. Election year sound bites. As I said, the government doesn't even know who has what. Doubt 'the government' will start to search every home in the US. It's silly but doomsday preppers are going to yell 'confiscation, fight it!!!!'...silly.

[Avincent52]

I would love to surprise those robbers by taking a gun out my jersey pocket...but I sold my Glock (inherited from my dad)...which I did not know how to use anyway.

The fantasy? Like an episode of TJ Hooker in which Heather Locklear fawns over your tight jersey and shaved legs while you exchange high-fives with Shatner after putting these punks in their place.

The reality? The OP *already* had a gun pointed at him. Producing a gun at that point merely turns a robbery into a shooting and maybe even a murder.
The best case scenario is that the robbers keep their cool and now they have *two* guns.

I'm not even going to address the wisdom of, say, leaving a gun in your jersey pocket while riding.

[unterhausen]

I'm a gun grabber from way back, but that's probably unrealistic. Wait, why are we talking about gun-grabbing again?

[Louis]

Wait, why are we talking about gun-grabbing again?

Because that and Benghazi rile up the base.

[SlackMan]

Better repeal 2nd amendment first. Election year sound bites. As I said, the government doesn't even know who has what. Doubt 'the government' will start to search every home in the US. It's silly but doomsday preppers are going to yell 'confiscation, fight it!!!!'...silly.

Revisit recent Supreme Court cases on intepretation of the 2nd amendment. It was effectively only preserved last time by one vote (5-4). One doesn't have to repeal the 2nd amendment to have a gun ban if the SC decides the amendment says something very different than the traditional interpretation.

[Louis]

One doesn't have to repeal the 2nd amendment to have a gun ban if the SC decides the amendment says something very different than the traditional interpretation.

You must mean the traditional misinterpretation. ;)

[SlackMan]

You must mean the traditional misinterpretation. ;)

Cute. Many have the view that the 2nd amendment applies only to the military or a militia, not to an individual's right to bear arms. How does one reconcile that view with the fact that every one of the other rights in the Bill of Rights refers to individual rights of the people? The misinterpretation lies with those who want to torture the meaning so that it does not apply to individuals.

[oldpotatoe]

Revisit recent Supreme Court cases on intepretation of the 2nd amendment. It was effectively only preserved last time by one vote (5-4). One doesn't have to repeal the 2nd amendment to have a gun ban if the SC decides the amendment says something very different than the traditional interpretation.

Yes it does. The latest interpretation was about personal ownership w/o considering the 'common militia' part. The 'traditional' interpretation was something along the lines of the States National Guard. It's just not going to happen. You can fret and worry and read various blogs about how some are so concerned about 'them takin my guns', but it isn't going to happen. Not now, not in the future.

A 'gun ban', what does that even mean? No more new gun sales? Oh no, I guess the country will have to make due with the 200 MILLION or so already on the streets. Ya think the mean, nasty, democratic 'government' is going to start a door to door..search every home in the US? 11 million illegal aliens and a Mexican financed wall has a better chance, and they have no chance at all.

over and out.

[Seramount]

so, how does this story unfold if the two bad guys asking for directions don't have a gun...?

[SlackMan]

Yes it does. The latest interpretation was about personal ownership w/o considering the 'common militia' part. The 'traditional' interpretation was something along the lines of the States National Guard. It's just not going to happen. You can fret and worry and read various blogs about how some are so concerned about 'them takin my guns', but it isn't going to happen. Not now, not in the future.

A 'gun ban', what does that even mean? No more new gun sales? Oh no, I guess the country will have to make due with the 200 MILLION or so already on the streets. Ya think the mean, nasty, democratic 'government' is going to start a door to door..search every home in the US? 11 million illegal aliens and a Mexican financed wall has a better chance, and they have no chance at all.

over and out.

OK, humor me. Suppose the SC decision went the other way, and then suppose a future Congress passed a law saying it is illegal to own a gun and that all guns must be surrendered. Play it out from there. How does that end?

[ajhapps]

The rental and real estate levels have escalated to crazy levels - crime - not so much. SF only need look at Chicago, Baltimore, New Orleans to see what crazy crime levels look like. SF is at average 'city' crime levels and they are almost the same as Boston per capita. All in all SF is on the safe side of cities.

I certainly wouldn't put SF in the "safer" half of big cities (and I've lived in Baltimore, Detroit, Chicago, Philadelphia, and NYC). The fact is, the crime rate in the Bay Area is going up, and SF has basically no recourse to respond. Not enough police, and almost zero enforcement of any sort of rule of law (other than parking tickets). In 2014, murders were down, but every other category of crime was up. In 2015, murders are up as well:

http://kron4.com/2015/08/27/san-francisco-crime-jumps-murders-robberies-smash-and-grab-thefts-up/

This city needs a wake up call on crime. Sadly, I don't think it'll happen anytime soon.

[Bruce K]

Look.....

This is a bike forum, not a gun forum.

We are not going to continually rehash the gun issue vis a vis legal ownership.

The OP was assaulted by a criminal who used a gun to commit (what is probably) a felony.

More to the point would be a discussion of would you stop, why would you stop etc.

You can restart this conversation along those terms if you'd like but this one is done.

BK