DUI deaths: youth, cyclists...I'm fed up.

[rugbysecondrow]

I open my newsfeed up today to stories of multiple DUI accidents, some resulting in death. One in Maryland involving two riders on a tandem bike, others involving the deaths and injury of 18 years olds (not at fault).

We have safety equipment like seat belts, crumple zones etc, but should be install equipment which would prevent the accident before it happens...breathalyzer in every car?

We have a punitive system, not a preventative one.

I am fed up, tired of the hand wringing after the fact.

What say you?


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[Cicli]

People think they have a right to drive. Driving should be a privilage that is more easilly revolked and punished is done haphazardly.

[Ken Robb]

If we spent more time/money teaching people to REALLY drive rather than point cars in the direction they hope it will go there would be far fewer accidents.

[zap]

John and Lynn are long time club members. My wife and I would see them occasionally on roads around Poolesville, MD.

This is just terrible.

[malcolm]

I think accidents (using the term loosely) is like the 4th leading cause of death in the US and among accidental death those involving motor vehicles is #1.

If anything else killed as many of us it would be an outrage and organizations every where would have formed or banded together to demand changes.

It's driving though and it's our right. The process to obtain the privilege needs to be more involved. The penalties for breaking even the most seemingly mundane rules need to be enforced and penalized in a meaningful way to include loss of privilege.

Impaired and distracted driving should be zero tolerance offenses and punishment should include a loss of privilege for a given time.

I think distracted driving has become a bigger issue than impaired driving. Lots of folks that would never consider driving drunk or high routinely text and use mobile devices. We drive so much that we become numbed or accommodated to the dangers. We don't have any respect for the task. I think texting is the same way it's something folks do so often even while driving without consequence that they feel immune or like it can never happen to them.

Now I see lots of people texting at every stop sign and red light. As soon as the vehicle comes to a stop the phone comes up. I'm sure this is better than while moving but what now happens is they add the already bad traffic.

I can't imagine what is going on in the average persons life that is so important it can't wait the 15-20 minutes it takes most of us to get where we are going.

Werner Herzog has a documentary on netflix called "One Second to the Next" (I think that's the title). I recommend everyone watch it especially have your young drivers watch it. It's a very moving documentary. One of the things I remember most was the trivial nature of the texts that were being sent prior to killing someone.

Rant over sorry

[thwart]

Rant over sorry

Think I missed the rant part.

That film should be mandatory viewing in all driver's ed classes (or driving schools).

Sleep-deprived driving is also very under-estimated in terms of the danger involved. I can think of two separate local cyclist and one pedestrian fatality related to this issue. And it's also more problematic to 'jump all over' the perpetrator from a moral or legal standpoint.

[ultraman6970]

The problem is that the culture here is that... they grew up thinking is a right and a necesity, even streets have no side walks to even walk to the 7/11 closer to you. So at the end you end up with this problems were people is not punished as hard as they should, and other ones for something stupid are punished for life.

Is really hard to achieve a change of mentality, probably in the next 30 years when the justice system changes??

People think they have a right to drive. Driving should be a privilage that is more easilly revolked and punished is done haphazardly.

[velomonkey]

Words matter.

Driving is not a "right." It's a privilege that comes with it responsibilities and requirements.

A lot of these deaths aren't "accidents." If you're loaded and get behind the wheel you are negligent - if you kill someone as a result there is nothing accidental about that.

[Dead Man]

Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are dangerous - forget freedom, we need safety.

[thwart]

Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are dangerous - forget freedom, we need safety.

Communist.

Whoops, I meant fascist.

;)

[rnhood]

I never did understand why the states relaxed the drivers test so much over the years. In addition to strict written and eye tests, people should have to pass an actual driving test that includes parallel parking (just like we did 50 years ago). And it should only be given in English. If stringent enough like it should be, then small businesses will pop up offering more driver-ed type classes, and offering more comprehensive instruction. And operating a cell phone while driving should require a special license.

[Rada]

If anything else killed as many of us it would be an outrage and organizations every where would have formed or banded together to demand changes.



Agree with much of what you say, but this part is really not true. Guns, tobacco, and alcohol all kill as much if not more. Some regulated to some degree, but responsibility is more than less left up to the individual.

[malcolm]

Agree with much of what you say, but this part is really not true. Guns, tobacco, and alcohol all kill as much if not more. Some regulated to some degree, but responsibility is more than less left up to the individual.

I think it's true there are way more deaths in MVCs than shooting in the US let the outrage over guns is much higher. That was my point cars kill more people each year in this country but no one is outraged. It's just a fact of life. Although guns are catching up at least among young people.

[Dead Man]

How much safer does it need to be?

[Rada]

I think it's true there are way more deaths in MVCs than shooting in the US let the outrage over guns is much higher. That was my point cars kill more people each year in this country but no one is outraged. It's just a fact of life. Although guns are catching up at least among young people.

There is some outrage with guns, but little is being done. There is no mass organization that is calling for stricter controls. If anything it is easier to acquire a gun now than in the past. Also the numbers are much closer than you think.

http://www.edusolution.com/myblog/?attachment_id=3798

[Dead Man]

Once you take suicides out, guns fall off the chart.

[Rada]

I think it's true there are way more deaths in MVCs than shooting in the US let the outrage over guns is much higher. That was my point cars kill more people each year in this country but no one is outraged. It's just a fact of life. Although guns are catching up at least among young people.

Tobacco:http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/health_effects/tobacco_related_mortality/

Alcohol:http://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/fact-sheets/alcohol-use.htm

[Rada]

Once you take suicides out, guns fall off the chart.

Number one method of suicide.

[SlackMan]

Once you take suicides out, guns fall off the chart.

^^^This. Many, many fewer people die by firearm homicides than by motor vehicles.

I conjecture that the lack of outrage about motor vehicle deaths is because people don't want really tough laws that might wind up applying to them. I think the overwhelming majority of people are outraged by murder, and want tough laws and sentencing for murder because they don't see themselves ever murdering someone and having to face the penalty. But, they can see themselves killing someone in a motor vehicle so they rationalize and accept weaker laws and sentencing for motor vehicle deaths.

[Rada]

^^^This. Many, many fewer people die by firearm homicides than by motor vehicles.

I conjecture that the lack of outrage about motor vehicle deaths is because people don't want really tough laws that might wind up applying to them. I think the overwhelming majority of people are outraged by murder, and want tough laws and sentencing for murder because they don't see themselves ever murdering someone and having to face the penalty. But, they can see themselves killing someone in a motor vehicle so they rationalize and accept weaker laws and sentencing for motor vehicle deaths.

Motor vehicle use is also a much bigger part of most of our lives so yes I agree that we as a whole have a more invested rationalization for weaker laws. Still I see very little real outrage for any other of the causes of death that I mentioned.

[rugbysecondrow]

1/3 of all traffic fatalities are alcohol related, over 10,000 a year. I5-20% of these deaths are to kids under the age of 16.

1/4 of all DUI are to repeat offenders.

Driving classes won't cure this problem.

We have fingerprint locks for guns, why no keys with integrated breathalyzer, which won't start the car unless the driver passes? Surely not full proof, but make the penalties very severe for those who bypass the system.

Mandate every recipient of a DUI with a breathalyzer in the car. Give them a sticker, akin to "student driver" for a year.

What is scary about DUI deaths is the indiscriminate nature of them. Akin to firing a bullet into a room. It may or may not hit somebody.

We need I make this a big deal.




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[Rada]

Are fingerprint locks for guns mandated? Sincerely curios as I have not seen anything in my state. I do believe in some instances in my state a recipient of a DUI has a breathalyser installed in their cars while on probation. They also have special tags that indicate they are serving a DUI sentence.

[rugbysecondrow]

Are fingerprint locks for guns mandated? Sincerely curios as I have not seen anything in my state. I do believe in some instances in my state a recipient of a DUI has a breathalyser installed in their cars while on probation. They also have special tags that indicate they are serving a DUI sentence.


No, the locks are available but not mandated.

I use that as an example of how technology can help solve a problem.

I have never seen a "scarlet letter" for DUI offenders, maybe they have them in some places.

Smoking changed in the US when people began to view it as trashy, completely unacceptable behavior. There was such a stigma that it forced many people into the shadows or into quitting.

I don't care to wade into a discussion about all the other ways people die, which don't really seem pertinent.




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[vqdriver]

People think they have a right to drive. Driving should be a privilage that is more easilly revolked and punished is done haphazardly.

it is a privilege, not a right. i agree that i don't get why courts are so reluctant to emphasize this.

[Rada]

No, the locks are available but not mandated.

I use that as an example of how technology can help solve a problem.

I have never seen a "scarlet letter" for DUI offenders, maybe they have them in some places.

Smoking changed in the US when people began to view it as trashy, completely unacceptable behavior. There was such a stigma that it forced many people into the shadows or into quitting.

I don't care to wade into a discussion about all the other ways people die, which don't really seem pertinent.




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http://dougdemuro.kinja.com/ohio-issues-bright-yellow-license-plates-to-shame-dui-o-1576928319


I am not disagreeing with you, but Malcom's contention about our lack of outrage concerning DUI's. I'm all for what you are proposing.

[Anarchist]

I open my newsfeed up today to stories of multiple DUI accidents, some resulting in death. One in Maryland involving two riders on a tandem bike, others involving the deaths and injury of 18 years olds (not at fault).

We have safety equipment like seat belts, crumple zones etc, but should be install equipment which would prevent the accident before it happens...breathalyzer in every car?

We have a punitive system, not a preventative one.

I am fed up, tired of the hand wringing after the fact.

What say you?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What are you going to do about it?

[rugbysecondrow]

I don't know. I guess I am dense, the issue just crystallized some for me.


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[Rada]

Once you take suicides out, guns fall off the chart.

Same logic can also be used with DUI related deaths. Comparing the two they are about even.

http://www.cdc.gov/motorvehiclesafety/impaired_driving/impaired-drv_factsheet.html

[http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm

[Anarchist]

I don't know. I guess I am dense, the issue just crystallized some for me.


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I understand that. I think we all do. I think we all also share the sense of frustration.

The problem is that all of us, myself included, often say about things "I've had enough. This has to change" and then we carry on.

Not singling you out, calling out all of us I guess. If we as a collective are sick of it, then it is time WE do something about it.

MADD started from someone saying " this has to change".

[pbarry]

I just went to truck driving school and received a commercial driver's license for my work. Here's a few of the rules for CDL drivers in CO: Absolutely no hand held phone can be operated while driving, and hands free devices require only pushing one button. Obviously, no texting. And the DUI and DWUI limits are .04 and .02, and those limits can be enforced whether or not the CDL holder is "on the job".

[malcolm]

http://dougdemuro.kinja.com/ohio-issues-bright-yellow-license-plates-to-shame-dui-o-1576928319


I am not disagreeing with you, but Malcom's contention about our lack of outrage concerning DUI's. I'm all for what you are proposing.

I didn't mean lack of outrage for dui in particular. I meant lack of outrage for motor vehicle deaths in general. DUI probably generates the most outrage but overall it's fairly well tolerated especially when as Rugby indicated the vast majority are repeat offenders.

[malcolm]

Tobacco:http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/health_effects/tobacco_related_mortality/

Alcohol:http://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/fact-sheets/alcohol-use.htm

Tobacco has been ostracized to the point of it almost only happening in the home. Massive law suits against big tobacco.

Alcohol well that's the motor vehicle of vice.

[Rada]

Tobacco has been ostracized to the point of it almost only happening in the home. Massive law suits against big tobacco.

Alcohol well that's the motor vehicle of vice.

Number of Tobacco related deaths are still far higher than MV related deaths. Your experience might be different than mine, but I still see a high number of co-workers who smoke on their breaks. I also don't visit bars much any more, but I have seen establishments that permit smoking inside despite bans. Number of women dying from tobacco use is going up from the last report I read. Big law suits are over. Smoking might not be the "cool" thing to do any more, but sales have not dropped much recently.

http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/economics/econ_facts/

[mecse]

I open my newsfeed up today to stories of multiple DUI accidents, some resulting in death. One in Maryland involving two riders on a tandem bike, others involving the deaths and injury of 18 years olds (not at fault).

We have safety equipment like seat belts, crumple zones etc, but should be install equipment which would prevent the accident before it happens...breathalyzer in every car?

We have a punitive system, not a preventative one.

I am fed up, tired of the hand wringing after the fact.

What say you?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm excited for cars that drive themselves. When it comes to this kind of thing, the "oopsie mistake" kind of thing, computers and machines are far better than human beings.

It's tremendously tragic. I read about this kind of thing all the time, and it's just so passé that it barely gets any press.

Killed at 18 for no good reason. Seems a monstrous waste.

[Rada]

I didn't mean lack of outrage for dui in particular. I meant lack of outrage for motor vehicle deaths in general. DUI probably generates the most outrage but overall it's fairly well tolerated especially when as Rugby indicated the vast majority are repeat offenders.

I agree there is a lack of outrage. I just don't think there is much outrage within Americans in general until we experience tragedy first hand.

[malcolm]

Number of Tobacco related deaths are still far higher than MV related deaths. Your experience might be different than mine, but I still see a high number of co-workers who smoke on their breaks. I also don't visit bars much any more, but I have seen establishments that permit smoking inside despite bans. Number of women dying from tobacco use is going up from the last report I read. Big law suits are over. Smoking might not be the "cool" thing to do any more, but sales have not dropped much recently.

http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/economics/econ_facts/

Dude I give up we are arguing two different things. I agree smoking kills a ton of folks. The outrage toward the cigarette industry to me seems to have caused changes in advertising in where you can smoke and the overall acceptance of smoking.
There is nothing similar when it comes to driving. No push to make it harder to get a license, no push to give up privileges. No push for enforcement of existing laws. Just the status quo. DUI has seen some changes over my life time but nothing recently. When it comes to cars we just accept it as part of doing business. Do you see what I'm saying.

[gemship]

I just went to truck driving school and received a commercial driver's license for my work. Here's a few of the rules for CDL drivers in CO: Absolutely no hand held phone can be operated while driving, and hands free devices require only pushing one button. Obviously, no texting. And the DUI and DWUI limits are .04 and .02, and those limits can be enforced whether or not the CDL holder is "on the job".

They should make that a nationwide rule/standard for all drivers. Then again it would just make too much sense.

I'm 41 now but when I was 27 I got a first offense for OUI. I guess I was one of the smart ones. I could of beat it in court and I was all set to but I came down with a bad case of the flu that day in court and my lawyer wasn't A. a shark and B. not very well prepared for me being sick or could care. So I took a continued without a finding plea deal but it's still a first offense on my record. I'm not perfect but I learned my lesson. Ironically a lot of what formed me in my adult life was being a good $aver with money$. I value the privilege to drive as I need my truck to work. I don't like going out and dealing with jerks at bars or paying for overpriced booze. I just don't care much for the scene. However once in a great bluemoon I am out of the house and I need to drive myself home. I recall just about everytime I had a few beers and had to drive and I was scared crap of getting pulled over, just not worth it. Like I said one of the smart ones to just stay home. I repent, I repent, I repent as if some Puritan inside me wants to kick me in the butt!

Rugby, you made the best case in a different thread for Uber's existence but I do feel for the over regulated taxis that have to compete.

[Rueda Tropical]

We have re-engineered our environment to be car - not people - centric. Transportation alternatives have been dis-mantled, blocked or neglected. Making cars a functional requirement for living and working for most of the US outside of a very small number of cities like NY that have effective public transport and where built and planned pre-car.

This has moved driving from privilege to basic necessity. Guns, alcohol, tobacco are not needed to get to work, pick up the groceries or get the kids to school. Lack of a car has an immediate economic impact for most. That has changed attitudes towards cars and puts any mode of transport or activity that interferes with the smooth function of car traffic such as cycling, walking, pollution controls, etc., at odds with the smooth functioning of life as we now know it. More cup holders, new ways to connect to the internet in-car and more in car entertainment would lead one to believe that distracted driving is going to get worse before it gets better.

The bad news - That attitude is not likely to change until there are viable alternatives to the current norm. The good news - cars will be driving themselves in the near future and humans will likely at one point be banned from piloting cars on public roads.

[peanutgallery]

I got tired of worrying about distracted driving and sold all the road bikes. Too many tragedies over 25 years, I've been hit 3 times and am no longer pushing my luck. Atb only and I feel better about it

Too many morons with gas money, cell phones and cars with lots of distracting gadgets. Roll in the latent white privilege stuff that we suffer thru everywhere and I am more than happy to not ride the road anymore. My biggest fear was to be a speed bump for some mindless housewife late to a karate lesson and not happy with an ac setting or something. Then it would be an "accident" and the only thing that would happen would be a few minutes late to said karate lesson

Sorry if I sound combative, negative or jaded. Atb now provides the relaxation that road riding used to

[witcombusa]

I open my newsfeed up today to stories of multiple DUI accidents, some resulting in death. One in Maryland involving two riders on a tandem bike, others involving the deaths and injury of 18 years olds (not at fault).

We have safety equipment like seat belts, crumple zones etc, but should be install equipment which would prevent the accident before it happens...breathalyzer in every car?
We have a punitive system, not a preventative one.

I am fed up, tired of the hand wringing after the fact.

What say you?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Absolutely NOT !!!

[rugbysecondrow]

I got tired of worrying about distracted driving and sold all the road bikes. Too many tragedies over 25 years, I've been hit 3 times and am no longer pushing my luck. Atb only and I feel better about it

Too many morons with gas money, cell phones and cars with lots of distracting gadgets. Roll in the latent white privilege stuff that we suffer thru everywhere and I am more than happy to not ride the road anymore. My biggest fear was to be a speed bump for some mindless housewife late to a karate lesson and not happy with an ac setting or something. Then it would be an "accident" and the only thing that would happen would be a few minutes late to said karate lesson

Sorry if I sound combative, negative or jaded. Atb now provides the relaxation that road riding used to


I have made the same move.


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[rugbysecondrow]

Absolutely NOT !!!


Why?


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[Dead Man]

Why?


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Yea... let's make everyone in America pay hundreds or thousands of dollars more per car for a device that's easily defeated and won't even put a dip in the graph.

I'm also gonna have a real problem when the device malfunctions and makes me late to a business meeting. Which is basically guaranteed to happen from time to time.

Look folks.. we're gonna have self-driving cars out on the road in 5-10 years, probably mandatory autodrive in urban areas within 20. Just hold your hatred for liberty in check for a little while longer, mkay? We're absolutely maxed out on life expectancy as it is - not gonna make any changes there until we find a cure for McDonalds.

[rugbysecondrow]

Yea... let's make everyone in America pay hundreds or thousands of dollars more per car for a device that's easily defeated and won't even put a dip in the graph.



I'm also gonna have a real problem when the device malfunctions and makes me late to a business meeting. Which is basically guaranteed to happen from time to time.



Look folks.. we're gonna have self-driving cars out on the road in 5-10 years, probably mandatory autodrive in urban areas within 20. Just hold your hatred for liberty in check for a little while longer, mkay? We're absolutely maxed out on life expectancy as it is - not gonna make any changes there until we find a cure for McDonalds.


Many cars won't start unless your foot is on the break. Many already use a key fob in lieu of an actual key. The car functions based on computer settings...I don't think this is a great stretch. The list of things which will delay you from your meeting is king and plentiful.

I also don't see this as a liberty issue. Car manufacturers has ABS, seat belts, air bags and other devices installed. How is this any different? We didn't make car owners pay to retrofit seat belts, so let's hold off on the "liberty" argument. That is a red herring.




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[gemship]

I think the latest technology in cars is exciting but I would dissaprove of older cars and trucks becoming legislated out of use.

[Rada]

Dude I give up we are arguing two different things. I agree smoking kills a ton of folks. The outrage toward the cigarette industry to me seems to have caused changes in advertising in where you can smoke and the overall acceptance of smoking.
There is nothing similar when it comes to driving. No push to make it harder to get a license, no push to give up privileges. No push for enforcement of existing laws. Just the status quo. DUI has seen some changes over my life time but nothing recently. When it comes to cars we just accept it as part of doing business. Do you see what I'm saying.

And from my experience things have not changed that much with tobacco in my state. Big fines and some restrictions have not strangled the industry or stopped the huge number of deaths. According to the CDC more people die each year from second hand smoke than MV deaths.

As for MV changes are you looking for federal laws? I've seen a number of laws coming onto the books in my state, such as breathalysers to start your car, DUI license plates, mandatory sentencing. BAC lowered to .08, .02 for drivers under 21, .04 for commercial. MADD, as has been pointed out, was in the forefront in many states in getting changes. So there is precedent for people getting stricter laws in some states. MADD lost it's impetus a while ago as the cause of the moment shifted. All in all I maintain my point that MV deaths are not alone in when it comes to apathy as you contend.

[malcolm]

And from my experience things have not changed that much with tobacco in my state. Big fines and some restrictions have not strangled the industry or stopped the huge number of deaths. According to the CDC more people die each year from second hand smoke than MV deaths.

As for MV changes are you looking for federal laws? I've seen a number of laws coming onto the books in my state, such as breathalysers to start your car, DUI license plates, mandatory sentencing. BAC lowered to .08, .02 for drivers under 21, .04 for commercial. MADD, as has been pointed out, was in the forefront in many states in getting changes. So there is precedent for people getting stricter laws in some states. MADD lost it's impetus a while ago as the cause of the moment shifted. All in all I maintain my point that MV deaths are not alone in when it comes to apathy as you contend.

How old are you ?

Not disparaging just trying to gain perspective on smoking

[Rada]

How old are you ?

Not disparaging just trying to gain perspective on smoking

I'm 53, and yourself? Just for the record I'm for much stricter gun laws, universal health care, and a Supreme Court that overturns Citizens United v. FEC.:rolleyes:

[Len J]

Just to bring this discussion back.....

Drunk Driver Kills Two Bicyclists in Chesapeake Beach

http://smnewsnet.com/archives/394765/drunk-driver-kills-two-bicyclists-in-chesapeake-beach/

[malcolm]

I'm 53, and yourself? Just for the record I'm for much stricter gun laws, universal health care, and a Supreme Court that overturns Citizens United v. FEC.:rolleyes:

I'm 56. I think we agree on most issues including the one we are debating. I'm fixed on apathy and your fixed on the numbers. End result is the same. I also agree we are (The US) apathetic about everything until it's completely out of control.

should be fixated

[gdw]

.02 law...do you live in Maine Rada? If so were you living there when they imposed that limit?

[Rada]

I'm 56. I think we agree on most issues including the one we are debating. I'm fixed on apathy and your fixed on the numbers. End result is the same. I also agree we are (The US) apathetic about everything until it's completely out of control.

should be fixated

Thumbs up on that from me!

[Rada]

.02 law...do you live in Maine Rada? If so were you living there when they imposed that limit?

I live in Ohio. The .02 limit is just for drivers under 21. Yes I was here when it was imposed, although I was well beyond that age when it became law. I've heard recently that there is some movement to lower the over 21 limit to .06.

[pbarry]

They should make that a nationwide rule/standard for all drivers. Then again it would just make too much sense.

I'm 41 now but when I was 27 I got a first offense for OUI. I guess I was one of the smart ones. I could of beat it in court and I was all set to but I came down with a bad case of the flu that day in court and my lawyer wasn't A. a shark and B. not very well prepared for me being sick or could care. So I took a continued without a finding plea deal but it's still a first offense on my record. I'm not perfect but I learned my lesson. Ironically a lot of what formed me in my adult life was being a good $aver with money$. I value the privilege to drive as I need my truck to work. I don't like going out and dealing with jerks at bars or paying for overpriced booze. I just don't care much for the scene. However once in a great bluemoon I am out of the house and I need to drive myself home. I recall just about everytime I had a few beers and had to drive and I was scared crap of getting pulled over, just not worth it. Like I said one of the smart ones to just stay home. I repent, I repent, I repent as if some Puritan inside me wants to kick me in the butt!

Rugby, you made the best case in a different thread for Uber's existence but I do feel for the over regulated taxis that have to compete.


Yeah, I don't think the lower limit is a bad thing at all. None of my coworkers, and me now, will have even one beer if they're going to drive. Easy enuf to have a designated driver or call a cab or a friend, no?

A close friend who's a criminal defense attorney, has a well worn question when this comes up: "You know how to not get caught drinking and driving?






Don't drink and drive..."

[goonster]

In addition to strict written and eye tests, people should have to pass an actual driving test that includes parallel parking (just like we did 50 years ago). And it should only be given in English.
Que?

Speaking English is related to driving?

I've driven in a few countries where I do not speak the language. Everyone lived.

[Louis]

One possible explanation (I have no idea if the studies or numbers bear this out)

US = Individual rights & freedoms and apparently not enough on responsibilities = Guns, Texting & DUI

Much of the rest of the world = Society's rights and less reliance on individual choice = Fewer guns, less texting and less DUI

[Louis]

Que?

Speaking English is related to driving?

I've driven in a few countries where I do not speak the language. Everyone lived.

One of the talking points on rant-talk radio about how the Mexican illegals are either raping all the women and killing us because they can't read the highway signs.

[bikingshearer]

We need I make this a big deal.


DUI is actually a much bigger deal than it was when I was learning to drive 40 years ago. The change has largely been due to people getting fed up with the level of carnage resulting from the old "boys will be boys" mentality.

My point is not to disagree with you. I agree with you whole-heartedly; DUI is not cute or funny and needs to treated like the life-threatening crime that it is. My point is that things have actually gotten better - not good enough by a long shot, but better - and we can get action and improvements by demanding them from our elected officials. It starts with city councils and county boards of supervisers (or the equivalent where you live). Demand they instruct their police forces and sheriffs' departments make DUI and related offenses a higher priority. Demand of your state legislators that they enact some of the good ideas stated in this thread.

I, for one, would make the law that every single person who commits a DUI has to have a breathalyzer lock-out on any car they drive, meaning any car they own, any car they borrow, any car they rent, for life. That is not instead of any other sentence they receive, it is in addition to that.

I would not be against requiring such lock-out devices in all cars, trucks, motorcycles, busses, etc., but I'll take whatever we can get.

[witcombusa]

1/3 of all traffic fatalities are alcohol related, over 10,000 a year. I5-20% of these deaths are to kids under the age of 16.

1/4 of all DUI are to repeat offenders.

Driving classes won't cure this problem.

We have fingerprint locks for guns, why no keys with integrated breathalyzer, which won't start the car unless the driver passes? Surely not full proof, but make the penalties very severe for those who bypass the system.

Mandate every recipient of a DUI with a breathalyzer in the car. Give them a sticker, akin to "student driver" for a year.

What is scary about DUI deaths is the indiscriminate nature of them. Akin to firing a bullet into a room. It may or may not hit somebody.

We need I make this a big deal.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No, I don't care that YOU want 'fingerprint locks' for guns, I won't use them. And don't be putting more crap in our cars. Both things come down to making the majority pay for the actions of the minority which is unacceptable. PERIOD.

They can pay for their own actions, I am not willing to do that for them :crap:

[flydhest]

This thread helps illustrate why cars shouldn't be on the road. Until car drivers can learn to follow the rules. DUI, texting, and the like. I am a driver, but those people give us a bad name.

[soulspinner]

Dude I give up we are arguing two different things. I agree smoking kills a ton of folks. The outrage toward the cigarette industry to me seems to have caused changes in advertising in where you can smoke and the overall acceptance of smoking.
There is nothing similar when it comes to driving. No push to make it harder to get a license, no push to give up privileges. No push for enforcement of existing laws. Just the status quo. DUI has seen some changes over my life time but nothing recently. When it comes to cars we just accept it as part of doing business. Do you see what I'm saying.

I see what your saying and agree.....

[oldpotatoe]

I got tired of worrying about distracted driving and sold all the road bikes. Too many tragedies over 25 years, I've been hit 3 times and am no longer pushing my luck. Atb only and I feel better about it

Too many morons with gas money, cell phones and cars with lots of distracting gadgets. Roll in the latent white privilege stuff that we suffer thru everywhere and I am more than happy to not ride the road anymore. My biggest fear was to be a speed bump for some mindless housewife late to a karate lesson and not happy with an ac setting or something. Then it would be an "accident" and the only thing that would happen would be a few minutes late to said karate lesson

Sorry if I sound combative, negative or jaded. Atb now provides the relaxation that road riding used to

Too bad but whatever makes you comfortable when you ride. I got put in the hospital for 5 days after a lady fell asleep at 10am and nailed me BUT...I pay me money, take me chances. No way somebody or 'those people' is going to make me stop riding on the road.

I ride with a shoulder, I don't ride during the week on high traffic roads. I ride defensively, even waving a person in front of me, even tho I 'may' have the right of way.

NOT telling you ought to do anything but for ME, bouncing around on a bicycle in the dirt, which I would have to drive to, I would rather hike.

[redir]

Alcoholism is a very serious problem in the US and around the world. Even though there is a successful treatment for it, it is shunned by the $35 Billion dollar a year rehabilitation and addiction treatment industry that profits greatly off the failed Draconian 12 step in patient type programs and is largely ignored by the medical community. But profits are more important than lives.

[parris]

I agree with a lot that's been said on the subject. One of the things to point out from what I'm reading is that enforcement and penalty varies a fair amount depending on state/jurisdiction. I know that here in upstate NY local LE go after dwi quite a bit. I've also seen a few people who were convicted for dwi/dui with the ignition interlock devices.

I'd love to see more people get caught for talking/texting while driving. Given the times of day the traffic and risk to others appears to be greater for that breed of entitled clown to do damage.

[rugbysecondrow]

I, for one, would make the law that every single person who commits a DUI has to have a breathalyzer lock-out on any car they drive, meaning any car they own, any car they borrow, any car they rent, for life. That is not instead of any other sentence they receive, it is in addition to that.

I would not be against requiring such lock-out devices in all cars, trucks, motorcycles, busses, etc., but I'll take whatever we can get.

I agree with this.


No, I don't care that YOU want 'fingerprint locks' for guns, I won't use them. And don't be putting more crap in our cars. Both things come down to making the majority pay for the actions of the minority which is unacceptable. PERIOD.

They can pay for their own actions, I am not willing to do that for them :crap:

I think you should re-read what I wrote...I never said anything about wanting fingerprint locks for guns. It was pointing to technology as a solution to a problem.

My man, the majority is already paying for the actions of the minority. Most people do not get into car crashes, but you pay for air bags, seat belts etc. I think you actually accept the theory of the majority paying for the minority, you must if you own a modern car, pay taxes of any sort etc, so it really isn't "unacceptable". You accept it, but you just don't like it.

At a certain point, it isn't about what you like as an individual. If it doesn't infringe on your rights, then it is fair game.

[rugbysecondrow]

I think there is a middle ground here. Long term punishment for DUI offenders. Revocation of privileges, special marking on automobiles, long term driving probation which allows for DUI spot checks, a public registry similar to sex offender, breathalyzer in the car of convicted offenders.

Right not, a DUI can be swept under the rug, if it was more public and uncomfortable, I think many would really think twice.

[zap]

According to local news reports, the individual who hit John and Lynne has a history.
Out on bail......


http://www.wusa9.com/story/news/local/maryland/2015/11/01/loved-ones-remember-cyclists-killed-drunk-driver/75017768/

[CampyorBust]

We had a cyclist fatality close by recently. It was not easy to hear about, and it really hits home when you have to drive by the flowers and cross on the way to the store. Some messed up details about it too, not public info yet but really makes you shake your head in disbelief. Sometimes I feel some drivers have an unfounded subconscious aggression towards cyclist. Alcohol only helps bring it to the surface.

[goonster]

John and Lynne were longtime randonneurs, BMB finishers and PBP starters. Both captain and stoker habitually rode with mirrors. More seasoned and safety-conscious cyclists you are unlikely to meet.

A terrible, terrible loss. :(

[Len J]

According to local news reports, the individual who hit John and Lynne has a history.
Out on bail......


http://www.wusa9.com/story/news/local/maryland/2015/11/01/loved-ones-remember-cyclists-killed-drunk-driver/75017768/

God that sucks.

[AngryScientist]

NYC may not exactly be a cycling paradise, but the beauty is, we've got some of the best "happy hour(s)" on the planet, and no one has to drive anywhere after pouring on the fun :hello:

good, efficient public transportation rules.

[Grant McLean]

I think the latest technology in cars is exciting but I would dissaprove of older cars and trucks becoming legislated out of use.

At some point collision avoidance technology is going to be standard,
there is too much money to save the insurance industry, they will push for it.

1.7 million crashes, and 500,000 injuries and almost 2,000 deaths from rear
end crashes a year in the USA, billions of dollars in damages.

http://www.ntsb.gov/safety/safety-studies/Pages/SIR1501.aspx

-g

[Anarchist]

I'm going to come back to the OP on this.

A question for all of us is this ...

What are WE going to do about this. Do the members of this forum know of advocacy or lobbying groups that we can get behind and start to turn up the volume as a group? Are there people here that are willing to start putting in the hours needed to start putting some heat on this?

Otherwise, it is just another of the long line of threads where we all get infuriated about the unfairness and then move on until the next time.

Do we want to start doing something about it? I ask because I feel as powerless as anyone about this, and unsure where to start but the beginnings of MADD had to be the same sort of thing. Is it just a critical mass issue??

[CunegoFan]

I'm going to come back to the OP on this.

A question for all of us is this ...

What are WE going to do about this. Do the members of this forum know of advocacy or lobbying groups that we can get behind and start to turn up the volume as a group? Are there people here that are willing to start putting in the hours needed to start putting some heat on this?

Otherwise, it is just another of the long line of threads where we all get infuriated about the unfairness and then move on until the next time.

Do we want to start doing something about it? I ask because I feel as powerless as anyone about this, and unsure where to start but the beginnings of MADD had to be the same sort of thing. Is it just a critical mass issue??

Get MADD to take up the cause of distracted driving in general and texting in particular. That meshes well with its original mission statement. It has everything in place to lobby for change. It would certainly be easier than trying to create a new organization from scratch.

[staggerwing]

I have never seen a "scarlet letter" for DUI offenders, maybe they have them in some places.

FWIW, Ohio has a restricted plate (AKA 'party plates) program for those with DUI convictions. The unspaced strip of red numbers only against a plain bright yellow field is clearly different than any other Ohio plate issued in the last 30 years.

See here (http://www.ohiocrimelawyer.com/page_details/2/10/dui/dui_ohio_restricted_plates_law.html) for a little more detail.

Peace to anyone with a personal connection to these recent events.

[redir]

That would be great if punishment actually works. But it doesn't. Punishment sure does make us feel better though.

[zap]

edit

Do the members of this forum know of advocacy or lobbying groups that we can get behind and start to turn up the volume as a group?

League of American Bicyclists is the advocacy group for cyclists. LAB is awfully tiny...US$2.5 million annual budget.

[peanutgallery]

It bums me out a bit because I love road bikes. I really enjoy riding them and especially working on them - total geek about it as I'm sure you can appreciate

I was always super careful and rode defensively, too. Just got tired of having to be like that I guess.

Driving isnt too bad, luckily there's some urban single track 2 blocks from my office and my house is about 10 to 15 minutes away from a big state forest with miles and miles of singletrack and dirt roads. I'm getting plenty of saddle time, but mowing thru parts like you wouldn't believe:) I'm up to 3 mtbs now and am hard pressed to keep one in good nick

Too bad but whatever makes you comfortable when you ride. I got put in the hospital for 5 days after a lady fell asleep at 10am and nailed me BUT...I pay me money, take me chances. No way somebody or 'those people' is going to make me stop riding on the road.

I ride with a shoulder, I don't ride during the week on high traffic roads. I ride defensively, even waving a person in front of me, even tho I 'may' have the right of way.

NOT telling you ought to do anything but for ME, bouncing around on a bicycle in the dirt, which I would have to drive to, I would rather hike.

[climbgdh]

A drunk driver impacted my life at an early age..... when i was 15. no cyclists involved but the driver hit and killed my 79 YO grandfather. he was walking on a sidewalk and driver went over sidewalk and continued on with my grandfather draped over the hood of his van until he ran directly into the side of a community church. that was 35 years ago and i still think of it often and how I would have loved to have had another 10 or 20 years with my granddad. the driver was an on duty telephone repair man. he got 3 weeks in jail, didn't lose his job and went on with his life but i hope he still thinks about the life he took and the family (mine) that he impacted by this careless act. brutal.

this past summer in whistler (just north of Vancouver) 2 cyclists were killed by an "alleged" drunk driver. a repeat offender apparently with 7 or 8 previous DUI's. he killed 2 local guys, family men and guys that contributed to the community. our provincial insurer (ICBC) found that the cyclists were negligent (originally said they were impaired) in the accident. CBC article attached. i'm dumbfounded by this and what little respect I had for ICBC is now gone. the idea of driving being a right has to change and the punishment for DUI's has to change.

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCcQFjACahUKEwjngsii-_LIAhUXW4gKHbaGA4I&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cbc.ca%2Fnews%2Fcanada%2Fbrit ish-columbia%2Fross-chafe-icbc-lawsuit-1.3292392&usg=AFQjCNHrRT7IicEYVBx1jwXS_4NBISWihQ&sig2=D6YrjDedi-aO1oZWDkge3Q

[Anarchist]

A drunk driver impacted my life at an early age..... when i was 15. no cyclists involved but the driver hit and killed my 79 YO grandfather. he was walking on a sidewalk and driver went over sidewalk and continued on with my grandfather draped over the hood of his van until he ran directly into the side of a community church. that was 35 years ago and i still think of it often and how I would have loved to have had another 10 or 20 years with my granddad. the driver was an on duty telephone repair man. he got 3 weeks in jail, didn't lose his job and went on with his life but i hope he still thinks about the life he took and the family (mine) that he impacted by this careless act. brutal.

this past summer in whistler (just north of Vancouver) 2 cyclists were killed by an "alleged" drunk driver. a repeat offender apparently with 7 or 8 previous DUI's. he killed 2 local guys, family men and guys that contributed to the community. our provincial insurer (ICBC) found that the cyclists were negligent (originally said they were impaired) in the accident. CBC article attached. i'm dumbfounded by this and what little respect I had for ICBC is now gone. the idea of driving being a right has to change and the punishment for DUI's has to change.

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCcQFjACahUKEwjngsii-_LIAhUXW4gKHbaGA4I&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cbc.ca%2Fnews%2Fcanada%2Fbrit ish-columbia%2Fross-chafe-icbc-lawsuit-1.3292392&usg=AFQjCNHrRT7IicEYVBx1jwXS_4NBISWihQ&sig2=D6YrjDedi-aO1oZWDkge3Q

To be clear, ICBC has not "found" that the cyclists were negligent, they have alleged that they were in court filings. Essentially this is the defence they are throwing up to avoid having to pay out a very large amount to the families of the two cyclists killed and to the family of the other drunk in the car.

Despicable. Yes.

Unexpected? No.

I have actually seen even worse from ICBC.

[climbgdh]

To be clear, ICBC has not "found" that the cyclists were negligent, they have alleged that they were in court filings. Essentially this is the defence they are throwing up to avoid having to pay out a very large amount to the families of the two cyclists killed and to the family of the other drunk in the car.



Thanks..... Good point. I'll expect anything and everything no matter how despicable from ICBC at this point.

[Elefantino]

One of the problems is that we, as a country, seem to do entirely too much shrugging.

Gun violence? We shrug. Broken government? We shrug. Health care system a mess? We shrug. Cyclists killed? We shrug. The insanity of unnecessary war? We shrug.

We give chaos a pass and make the excuse that it's just the price of freedom.

And shrug.

[oldpotatoe]

A drunk driver impacted my life at an early age..... when i was 15. no cyclists involved but the driver hit and killed my 79 YO grandfather. he was walking on a sidewalk and driver went over sidewalk and continued on with my grandfather draped over the hood of his van until he ran directly into the side of a community church. that was 35 years ago and i still think of it often and how I would have loved to have had another 10 or 20 years with my granddad. the driver was an on duty telephone repair man. he got 3 weeks in jail, didn't lose his job and went on with his life but i hope he still thinks about the life he took and the family (mine) that he impacted by this careless act. brutal.

this past summer in whistler (just north of Vancouver) 2 cyclists were killed by an "alleged" drunk driver. a repeat offender apparently with 7 or 8 previous DUI's. he killed 2 local guys, family men and guys that contributed to the community. our provincial insurer (ICBC) found that the cyclists were negligent (originally said they were impaired) in the accident. CBC article attached. i'm dumbfounded by this and what little respect I had for ICBC is now gone. the idea of driving being a right has to change and the punishment for DUI's has to change.

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCcQFjACahUKEwjngsii-_LIAhUXW4gKHbaGA4I&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cbc.ca%2Fnews%2Fcanada%2Fbrit ish-columbia%2Fross-chafe-icbc-lawsuit-1.3292392&usg=AFQjCNHrRT7IicEYVBx1jwXS_4NBISWihQ&sig2=D6YrjDedi-aO1oZWDkge3Q

In Colorado, 4th DUI is now a felony=jail time. The proposal was for 3rd.

Son got his second, 10 years apart. Cost him huge $, 2 years of car interlock gizmo(with camera, he pays for it), 2 years probation, piss tests. I think it has got his attention but punishment is key, IMHO. BUT with this trend toward reducing prison/jail populations of non violent people..don't see it.

Yes, driving a car drunk van be violent but.....alcohol is just so prevalent, as much a part of society as..well, driving a car. Just take 20 minutes on TV or even the interweb..cars, booze, ED drugs.

[deechee]

Definitely sucks.

No joke. Cars need to be slower and smaller. I don't understand why cars have gotten so incredibly massive over the years. People are so cocooned in them that they feel invincible. Even driving my '91 civic, I remember feeling like my butt was only a few inches off the ground and that if I were to drive recklessly, I'd probably end up seriously hurting myself.

One thing I've never understood is despite the USA's high incarceration rate, we always hear these stories of people not going to jail for these crimes. I don't have any direct knowledge, but I have always been told that in Japan, if you kill someone; accident or not, you *will* go to jail. And once you've been convicted, well, Japanese people are pretty good shaming...

[fhaas]

As a avid vintage car collector, road cyclist and motorcyclist, I for one can't see automated cars taking over the roads in the next 25 years. I hopefully will not see it in my life time. Yes Google has been trying hard to get their cars approved for the masses, but it sure looks like they keep having more and more issues dealing with "human" drivers in this equation. Tesla had said they're cars are ready now with a downloadable software patch, but I haven't see nor heard of a owner trying that feature out on public streets.

For self driving cars today, there are simply too many concerns from the public, the lawmakers, and the auto industry for this to happen quickly. A large number of national and state laws will need to be written and passed before this is a reality in America. We all know our national government is almost stalemated at this point for any rational laws to really be passed and enacted. I don't see that changing in the next election cycle nor possibly the cycle after. Not until our representatives actually start acting like adults and do their jobs. There is a large number of legal problems to consider, accidents involving self driven cars vs. driven human ones? Who is to blame? Do you as a human driver engaging such a car and being involved in an accident is the self driving car always faultless and you as a human automatically guilty? How would one prove your innocence against a computer? What will happen to insurance rates? The auto driving car gets a big discount over a driver that has 30+ years of experience with no accidents? Just some things to consider.

Since people are so worried about the NSA watching everything you do, now won't the government also know where you are, how fast you're going at all times and possibly who's in the car with you using a Bluetooth connection to your phone? Each car may well have a black box always connected to the internet with big brother watching? See the implications? A self driving car will not be able to break laws and won't allow you to either, so speeding is now a thing of the past. Doesn't matter how late you are to catch that plane! Are humans really willing to give up these options? To let a computer tell you how you function in your daily commute? I think not.

The issue of older vehicles being used around "self driving" cars is a BIG one, as it makes little sense to have both on the roads at the same time and older cars cannot simply be forced out of use easily being many citizens cannot afford a new car, nor wish to own one. Many Americans feel driving is a right not a privilege, so how is that to change? I myself do not wish to buy a new car, nor will I unless legislated against my will. I own 20+ vintage collectable cars, I will not stop using them.

Also what do you do with older more experience drivers (like myself) who visually see the other car around me is a self driving vehicle and me knowing the car is programmed to drive defensive. That gives me the "human" option to abuse that knowledge. I now can purposely force self driving cars to stop for me at 4 way intersections even if I do not have the right to go first. I can cut them off in traffic, turning in front of one knowing full well they'll need to stop or at least slow down for me. Driving an automated car in the city, now means you could be the slowest one getting any place! That will infuriate many new owners, but how do you force good driving habits on a public that doesn't have them now?

See my points?

Also I want to know.... who's going to make the first self driving motorcycle? After all if cars are now doing this, don't motorcycles also have to follow suit?

That would be interesting to see in practice.

Ciao,
Frank

[redir]

There certainly are kinks to work out but it's gonna happen. I would not worry about the government watching you unless of course by that point the government IS Google and they are already watching you. ;)

http://dingo.care2.com/pictures/greenliving/1014/1013463.large.jpg