I've fallen [into my pedals] and I can't get up...

[Ti Designs]

I get ridiculed a lot about how I teach pedal stroke, in particular how I tell people to fall into their pedals. Much of the mocking comes from the safety of the internet, but I get a fair bit of it at work. Most of the "a man walks into a bar" jokes have been rewritten as "Ed falls into a pedal" jokes - things like that. It's a simple case of those who think pedaling a bike is natural vs those who don't, and have figured out a way to teach a skill set.

I hear Galileo had the same issue, only NASA came along a few centuries too late, so he could never really crush anyone in an argument. All I needed was for someone to ridicule how I teach pedal stroke while on a ride. On Thursday I got my wish. It was aggressive ridiculing at first, asking if I was falling into my pedals every minute. Going up the first hill he decided to make the point of how falling into the pedals doesn't work by dropping me. Then something wonderful happened, he shut up. He shifted down in an effort to spin up the hill, I rode up next to him, falling into my pedals as I always do while climbing. He couldn't talk because he was breathing too hard, I wasn't putting in much effort. He was the perfect example of what goes wrong in the pedal stroke, I was a pretty good example of how it should work. I really didn't have to say much, after a few hills all mocking stopped. For some reason I had "Help me now I'm falling" by the Kinks in my head for the rest of the ride...

"falling into the pedals" is just a teaching method I use to get around a skill set that is already mapped. You spend your life walking and standing, your body uses the quads for that. As soon as you try to push down, you probably activate the quads, which on a bike are pushing in the wrong direction. I tell people to fall into the pedals because it brings it back to the static skill set used for sitting. In sitting nobody uses their quads, the glutes hold up the body weight. It's just my trick to teach using the right muscle group. You would think it should be easy to use the quads, so there's no need for such silly methods, but in working with hundreds of people I've found maybe 5% can make that happen. Of the rest, maybe 5% would ever listen to me, which leaves 90% of the cycling population to mock me and my ideas about falling into the pedals.

Here's the thing, it's a teaching method. It's my way of tricking the body into using a muscle for part of the pedal stroke. Once mapped, I can use that muscle as hard as I want. When I ride I don't just fall into the pedals, I power the bike using the largest muscle group I have, and I do it efficiently. If you can't do that, ridiculing me on the bike for my teaching method could be a mistake...

[weisan]

scraping mud off the sole of your shoes ...

[Tickdoc]

I get ridiculed a lot about how I teach pedal stroke, in particular how I tell people to fall into their pedals. Much of the mocking comes from the safety of the internet, but I get a fair bit of it at work. Most of the "a man walks into a bar" jokes have been rewritten as "Ed falls into a pedal" jokes - things like that. It's a simple case of those who think pedaling a bike is natural vs those who don't, and have figured out a way to teach a skill set.

I hear Galileo had the same issue, only NASA came along a few centuries too late, so he could never really crush anyone in an argument. All I needed was for someone to ridicule how I teach pedal stroke while on a ride. On Thursday I got my wish. It was aggressive ridiculing at first, asking if I was falling into my pedals every minute. Going up the first hill he decided to make the point of how falling into the pedals doesn't work by dropping me. Then something wonderful happened, he shut up. He shifted down in an effort to spin up the hill, I rode up next to him, falling into my pedals as I always do while climbing. He couldn't talk because he was breathing too hard, I wasn't putting in much effort. He was the perfect example of what goes wrong in the pedal stroke, I was a pretty good example of how it should work. I really didn't have to say much, after a few hills all mocking stopped. For some reason I had "Help me now I'm falling" by the Kinks in my head for the rest of the ride...

"falling into the pedals" is just a teaching method I use to get around a skill set that is already mapped. You spend your life walking and standing, your body uses the quads for that. As soon as you try to push down, you probably activate the quads, which on a bike are pushing in the wrong direction. I tell people to fall into the pedals because it brings it back to the static skill set used for sitting. In sitting nobody uses their quads, the glutes hold up the body weight. It's just my trick to teach using the right muscle group. You would think it should be easy to use the quads, so there's no need for such silly methods, but in working with hundreds of people I've found maybe 5% can make that happen. Of the rest, maybe 5% would ever listen to me, which leaves 90% of the cycling population to mock me and my ideas about falling into the pedals.

Here's the thing, it's a teaching method. It's my way of tricking the body into using a muscle for part of the pedal stroke. Once mapped, I can use that muscle as hard as I want. When I ride I don't just fall into the pedals, I power the bike using the largest muscle group I have, and I do it efficiently. If you can't do that, ridiculing me on the bike for my teaching method could be a mistake...

I'm a visual learner....can I get this in some sort of animated form? How about pedal stroke circle graph?

I won't develop hemorrhoids from this will I?

The last time I played with my pedal stroke I pulled an achilles tendon....Pulling not falling.

And if there are no hills, can you fall forward into a faster speed?

So many questions.

[jzisk]

I agree-- a visual may help. It was called "ankling" way back when, a term some still use. The changing angle of your ankle was the focus of diagrams. It always felt like getting my ankles to do their fair share... But the "scraping mud off" and toeing into shoes at bottom and top of stroke mnemonic helped me to get out of a bad push down pull up habit. I dunno. My colleagues make fun of my passion for riding, but with proper reverence.

[Tony T]

IDK, I don't think about proper foot placement when I walk, so I don't when I bike either, I just ride.

[FastforaSlowGuy]

Google Ed Sassler coaching and you'll get a bunch of video he has created. Good stuff. Definitely not ankling. When I get it right, especially on a hill, it's a "whoa" moment and I feel like a god on the bike - like I could ride anything.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[laupsi]

Google Ed Sassler coaching and you'll get a bunch of video he has created. Good stuff. Definitely not ankling. When I get it right, especially on a hill, it's a "whoa" moment and I feel like a god on the bike - like I could ride anything.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

when sufficiently rested and well trained I feel this way too.

[thegunner]

i think the bigger question is "what's wrong with this guy that he goes out on a ride to ridicule someone else?"

[mg2ride]

let's get back to the ridiculing.

If I understand you OP correctly, since you dropped someone on a climb your teaching method has been verified?

[numbskull]

Just watch a video of Merckx in full flight. You'll see his upper body drop a bit into the final quadrant of each pedal down stroke when he is really riding hard.

If it worked for him it likely can help you as well.

I don't mean to imply Merckx is thinking about it. Rather I think the motion is the unconscious result of him shutting off his quads before they reach an isometric stage of contraction (and waste energy/generate lactate), while at the same time using a small change in body position to optimize the duration and torque available from his glutes.

To criticize TiD for pointing this out is just plain stupid. If you can pedal as efficiently as Merckx then obviously you don't need to change anything. For the rest of us who find our HR soaring and legs weakening on long hills, sliding back a bit on the saddle, dropping our weight into the downstroke, and prioritizing the glutes most definitely can help.

I'm grateful to Ti D for helping me understand this and feel it is one of the most useful things I've learned from this site.

[bobswire]

I too would appreciate a visual video. I'm an old dog but willing to learn new trick if it would help me climb. The older I gotten I've become a more efficient cyclist (in how I use my body) while not losing too much time in the process getting from point A to B. I'm not a competitive rider other than to myself but anything that helps me get to point B more efficiently is welcomed.

[thwart]

This is more visual... although still a bit too much physics, math and such for some (including dummies like me :rolleyes:).

http://edsasslercoaching.com/how-it-works/

BTW, thanks for the work on this, Ed!

[brownhound]

Or try this: http://edsasslercoaching.com/the-program/the-concept/

In particular, the "Dynamic Position" video. I watched them all but I think that's the visual.

I watched with my four year old. As he said it "oh, so you don't use your muscle to push down but use gravity to pull down."

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ti Designs]

I've been putting my pedal stroke program on video for the last two months, but I'm still arguing with a lawyer about maintaing the rights to the program. It seems the guy who came up with the Total Emersion method of teaching swimming technique lost the right to sell it. I'm more interested in making better riders than making lots of money (both would be nice...) so I'm planning on having the whole thing up before Thanksgiving.

For now there are the original videos I made in my basement:

http://edsasslercoaching.com/the-program/the-concept/

[Tony]

I'm a visual learner....can I get this in some sort of animated form? How about pedal stroke circle graph?


http://edsasslercoaching.com/making-it-work/

[thwart]

Or try this: http://edsasslercoaching.com/the-program/the-concept/

In particular, the "Dynamic Position" video. I watched them all but I think that's the visual.

I watched with my four year old. As he said it "oh, so you don't use your muscle to push down but use gravity to pull down."

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Oh yeah.

[jr59]

I get ridiculed a lot about how I teach pedal stroke, in particular how I tell people to fall into their pedals. Much of the mocking comes from the safety of the internet, but I get a fair bit of it at work. Most of the "a man walks into a bar" jokes have been rewritten as "Ed falls into a pedal" jokes - things like that. It's a simple case of those who think pedaling a bike is natural vs those who don't, and have figured out a way to teach a skill set.

I hear Galileo had the same issue, only NASA came along a few centuries too late, so he could never really crush anyone in an argument. All I needed was for someone to ridicule how I teach pedal stroke while on a ride. On Thursday I got my wish. It was aggressive ridiculing at first, asking if I was falling into my pedals every minute. Going up the first hill he decided to make the point of how falling into the pedals doesn't work by dropping me. Then something wonderful happened, he shut up. He shifted down in an effort to spin up the hill, I rode up next to him, falling into my pedals as I always do while climbing. He couldn't talk because he was breathing too hard, I wasn't putting in much effort. He was the perfect example of what goes wrong in the pedal stroke, I was a pretty good example of how it should work. I really didn't have to say much, after a few hills all mocking stopped. For some reason I had "Help me now I'm falling" by the Kinks in my head for the rest of the ride...

"falling into the pedals" is just a teaching method I use to get around a skill set that is already mapped. You spend your life walking and standing, your body uses the quads for that. As soon as you try to push down, you probably activate the quads, which on a bike are pushing in the wrong direction. I tell people to fall into the pedals because it brings it back to the static skill set used for sitting. In sitting nobody uses their quads, the glutes hold up the body weight. It's just my trick to teach using the right muscle group. You would think it should be easy to use the quads, so there's no need for such silly methods, but in working with hundreds of people I've found maybe 5% can make that happen. Of the rest, maybe 5% would ever listen to me, which leaves 90% of the cycling population to mock me and my ideas about falling into the pedals.

Here's the thing, it's a teaching method. It's my way of tricking the body into using a muscle for part of the pedal stroke. Once mapped, I can use that muscle as hard as I want. When I ride I don't just fall into the pedals, I power the bike using the largest muscle group I have, and I do it efficiently. If you can't do that, ridiculing me on the bike for my teaching method could be a mistake...


Wait, didn't this happen in Fl? Where clearly you were the far better cyclist?

Or did this happen on the ride with the guy who MUST have been doping?

hmmm......:rolleyes:

[CunegoFan]

let's get back to the ridiculing.

If I understand you OP correctly, since you dropped someone on a climb you teaching method has been verified?

If he had not been able to drop him then it would have been proof the other guy was on drugs.

I have a suspicion that the amount of ridiculing is directly proportional to the amount of boasting.

[etu]

I too would appreciate a visual video. I'm an old dog but willing to learn new trick if it would help me climb. The older I gotten I've become a more efficient cyclist (in how I use my body) while not losing too much time in the process getting from point A to B. I'm not a competitive rider other than to myself but anything that helps me get to point B more efficiently is welcomed.

Bob,
PM me if you want to go a short ride. The hill up to legion of honor might be a good spot. I spent a few hours with Ed this spring and learned the "falling into pedals" technique and it's made a real significant change in my riding. I haven't measured my times on climbs so I can't objectively say I am going faster, but it FEELS a lot better. When I am going hard on climbs now, it's no longer my legs, but my heart and lungs that are the limiters.

[weisan]

Let the KING show you how...
https://vimeo.com/144278364

http://alicehui.com/pics/misc/merckx.jpg (https://vimeo.com/144278364)

[Steve in SLO]

I have to hand it to Ed: I am a 35 year cyclist, and after watching his falling on the pedals video, I Incorporated it into my pedal stroke and found that extra little bit but I had been missing. I don't think about it all the time, but when I do it always seems to give me that little extra especially going uphill.

[Tickdoc]

ok, I have the general idea. What I see with the falling forward technique is what I do naturally when I am wearing out at the end of a long climb. I think it is an adjustment that happens as your body needs a switch naturally.

I don't ride like that all of the time though. Would I? Should I? I don't know I'll have to play with it.

I disagree with his ROM limitations as a static thing. Stretches to maintain good ROM eliminate that problem and allow you to gain more aerodynamic resting position. That is something I worked on when being fit for my bike. I feel pretty flexible for my age, but it comes from daily stretching and resistance stretching to increase my flexibility in general.

BTW Did anyone notice the "flat earth history" video that popped up after the first video? The picture of the turtle with the elephants on it's back and the flat earth on top was more than I could resist.

https://youtu.be/U55UDzNCSAE

What a world we live in.



Lastly, I do like his choice of bike ;~)

[Coalfield]

If Eddy did it..... I want to hear about it.
god knows my pedal stroke is always wanting to be smoother, powerful.

[etu]

ok, I have the general idea. What I see with the falling forward technique is what I do naturally when I am wearing out at the end of a long climb. I think it is an adjustment that happens as your body needs a switch naturally.

I don't ride like that all of the time though. Would I? Should I? I don't know I'll have to play with it.



Do it earlier rather than later when you're tired. It is intuitive and not intuitive at the same. You do have to push a slightly bigger gear. One thing I noticed is that I feel like I am using so much more of my core as evidenced a sore (in a good way) upper back muscles on the following day.

[mg2ride]

I have a suspicion that the amount of ridiculing is directly proportional to the amount of boasting.

If we are to follow that model we need to step it up a bit. We are way behind:hello:

[Ti Designs]

I disagree with his ROM limitations as a static thing. Stretches to maintain good ROM eliminate that problem and allow you to gain more aerodynamic resting position. That is something I worked on when being fit for my bike. I feel pretty flexible for my age, but it comes from daily stretching and resistance stretching to increase my flexibility in general.

I never said that ROM was static. I change handlebar position a number of times a year, going from my less flexible early season form to my more flexible in-season form. What the video was going over was the test for range of motion, which is the limit of how much angle at the hip you can handle. It also has a lot to do with getting body weight into the pedal, as less range of motion can limit getting the center of gravity right over the pedal.

[dnc]

I never said that ROM was static. I change handlebar position a number of times a year, going from my less flexible early season form to my more flexible in-season form. What the video was going over was the test for range of motion, which is the limit of how much angle at the hip you can handle. It also has a lot to do with getting body weight into the pedal, as less range of motion can limit getting the center of gravity right over the pedal.


Can your technique be used when using aero bars in a TT ?

[Ti Designs]

Wait, didn't this happen in Fl? Where clearly you were the far better cyclist?

Or did this happen on the ride with the guy who MUST have been doping?

hmmm......:rolleyes:

The perfect example of not understanding a technique. Falling into the pedals is my way of tricking the body into using the glutes. Glutes are the widest muscle group you've got, but not very long. The result is lots of torque, not that much speed. By comparison, quads are almost three times as long with a lever system (the knee) that moves the foot far faster. Lots of speed, not so much torque. Climbing hills requires torque, speed on the flats requires leg speed. Take a look at the comparison - same rider, using quads on a time trial, glutes to get up a hill:

http://edsasslercoaching.com/what-goes-wrong/someone-said/


Both the ride with doper boy and the ride in Florida were flat speed rides. In Florida what I found were lots of people who know how to use their quads really well. I have good flat speed for where I live, in Florida I'm average at best. We went over one overpass, they all climbed it out of the saddle... Doper boy was really fast, but had no cardio response to his efforts. At 30 MPH he wasn't breathing very hard at all, mile after mile.

[Ti Designs]

Can your technique be used when using aero bars in a TT ?

Yeh, but it's not easy. This is why I teach my triathletes pedal stroke on road bikes before switching over to aero bars. Aero bars should get in the way of dropping the body weight into the pedals. If they learn the technique on a road bike to the point where the glutes are the mapped muscle, lowering the arm pads a bit can allow the same thing to work on aero bars.

When coaching triathletes, part of my job is to make the running coach look like a genius. The upper attachment of the glutes pulls on the lumbar spine. Over use that and you're not getting off the bike and running very fast. In the last two miles of the bike leg of a triathlon, my athletes will shift to lower and lower gears and bring up the cadence - shifting to the quads. The time lost by doing this is more than made up in the first run split.

[numbskull]

This video from an earlier thread demonstrates the technique while climbing pretty well (I think) beginning at around 42 seconds after he has spent his quads out of the saddle and needs to continue to push the pace. Notice also how later in the clip ,when he hits the 20% section, his quads have had a chance to recover and he can again use them to power up a short steeper section.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnX4uaDYyIU

[Dead Man]

I was thinking a lot about you and your fall-on-your-pedals as I bobbed up the 16,000' of de Ronde Portlandia, last spring.

http://i844.photobucket.com/albums/ab6/bkb0000/163a83dc-1f35-4c69-b447-bbb9cf969b09_zpsu4j33r17.pnghttp://i844.photobucket.com/albums/ab6/bkb0000/dd4a37d8-9e4e-4619-921d-d2811ac3e94e_zps5ag3nmnq.png


Works especially well as the day wears on - having absolutely nothing left in your other muscles, the body really responds well to anything that boosts efficiency

[mg2ride]

A question that is both sincere and snarky:

If we learned to walk at a very young age without anyone really teaching us, why do you think we can't learn to properly pedal a bike without being taught?

[Dead Man]

A question that is both sincere and snarky:

If we learned to walk at a very young age without anyone really teaching us, why do you think we can't learn to properly pedal a bike without being taught?

I'm not the pedaling expert, but I'll offer what I think is the simple answer: we didn't evolve (nor were created, if that's your flavor) to ride bikes.

But beyond figuring out how to balance and go forward, you DON'T need to learn how to "properly" pedal a bike, do you? Feet go in circles, bike goes forward. So simpo.

It's only when you want to be able to do it faster than everyone else that you really need to learn something extra. And then yea... like ANYTHING that can be done competitively... you're gonna need to investigate ways of improving efficiency.

[F150]

Ed,

Thanks for your post. While others clearly have been exposed to your thoughts on the subject, I have not (or didn't know I had). Watched a number of videos last night and visited your home page. After coming home and watching the hometown team stink it up for a quarter, I could take no more and decided a ride was in order. I don't know about "tricking" my body or muscle groups but I consciously engaged the glutes and hamstrings throughout the ride as opposed to quads. Happy to say at no point did muscle fatigue enter the discussion. Lungs yes, but muscles no. Seems to make sense to use the biggest/best muscle group for the task, and I felt more powerful and faster when relying on the hip flexors, glutes and hams to get me up the climbs. Previously, on these same climbs my quads are screaming. Once at higher cadence on flat ground, I could feel the quads working which was fine as they felt fresh.

My $0.02...

[DFABob]

Thanks for sharing!

I thought the breakdown of pedal stroke and bio-mechanics was fairly objective. I'll definitely be looking to maximize the efficiency of my muscles by reducing their duty cycle.

Hail science.

[93legendti]

Ymmv, but it works for me.
My trainer has a power meter and I can see the watts increase while climbing using glutes, without an increase in perceived effort (I don't use a hrm).

[Kirk Pacenti]

Keep up the good work, Ed. Illegitimi non carborundum!

Cheers,
KP

[Ti Designs]

If we learned to walk at a very young age without anyone really teaching us, why do you think we can't learn to properly pedal a bike without being taught?

A few reasons. First, cycling is the rare activity where the machine controls the whole movement. With a tennis racket you hold on one end and the other end has freedom of movement - it can go anywhere in almost any orientation. Skis are attached, but they can move and point in any direction. Clip in and try to make your pedals go in anything other than a circle around the bottom bracket, good luck with that... Second, the reflexes you gained while learning to walk get in the way. You spend your whole life trying not to fall, then some idiot cycling coach tells you to fall into your pedals. The true natural athletes can shut off those reflexes, most people can't. When I'm doing a fitting I need to have the rider understand that their body weight goes on the pedal, not on their bars, so I put a stool under the pedal at 3:00. It's solid, they can put their weight on it - everybody gets this. Then with the bike in the hardest gear I have them try the same thing without the stool holding the pedal up. It takes most people a minute or two before they trust their pedals enough to get their full weight on it.

[numbskull]

A question that is both sincere and snarky:

If we learned to walk at a very young age without anyone really teaching us, why do you think we can't learn to properly pedal a bike without being taught?

You are hard wired by evolution to learn to walk.

You are not hard wired to pedal a bike, hit a golf ball, shoot a basket, or throw a baseball. Learning the best technique usually helps performance in such activities. To think pedaling a bike at peak efficiency should come naturally to everyone seems a bit naive.

[CunegoFan]

You are hard wired by evolution to learn to walk.

You are not hard wired to pedal a bike, hit a golf ball, shoot a basket, or throw a baseball. Learning the best technique usually helps performance in such activities. To think pedaling a bike at peak efficiency should come naturally to everyone seems a bit naive.

And yet, after looking further than the bro-science, study after study has failed to show the promised improvements from the pedalling styles that people tout...

[bobswire]

Bob,
PM me if you want to go a short ride. The hill up to legion of honor might be a good spot. I spent a few hours with Ed this spring and learned the "falling into pedals" technique and it's made a real significant change in my riding. I haven't measured my times on climbs so I can't objectively say I am going faster, but it FEELS a lot better. When I am going hard on climbs now, it's no longer my legs, but my heart and lungs that are the limiters.

That is a decent climb, It doesn't look steep but you get a good workout. I assume you are talking about the backside by sea cliff or the front side by the golf course? My heart and lungs are pretty much my limiting factor also but my legs start to feel it after a couple of hours. I'm not searching for speed,just efficiently technique to make it more enjoyable. I'll be away this week but will send you a pm when I return. Thanks,Bob

[numbskull]

And yet, after looking further than the bro-science, study after study has failed to show the promised improvements from the pedalling styles that people tout...

I think you are referring to the studies of "pedaling circles" or pulling up which is not relevant to the present discussion.

[93legendti]

Check out Lemond on Luz Ardiden starting around 3:00


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fAjj5137yKM

[Dead Man]

Check out Lemond on Liz Ardiden starting around 3:00


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fAjj5137yKM

heh.. sitting down to shift.

[93legendti]

heh.. sitting down to shift.

The good old days

[rkhatibi]

A question that is both sincere and snarky:

If we learned to walk at a very young age without anyone really teaching us, why do you think we can't learn to properly pedal a bike without being taught?

I played soccer for a number of years and had to relearn running when I started doing distance. When primarily sprinting or loose jogging I never developed a long distance stride or at least not a very good one. And learning that actually helped with sprint speed.

Had the same experience swimming, wrestling, punching, kicking, hitting things with sticks, and everything else humans have been doing for the past 200k years. The adaptable human is good at getting it done, just not very efficiently without analyzing and learning.

[benb]

I feel like this is one of those techniques that works best when your fit is right for it, and when that lines up and you do it correct then all of a sudden you're not putting the weight on your bars.

If the fit is off the pedaling motion is not going to work right, the quads activate too much or something for stabilization, and you're right back to putting too much weight on your hands.

[brownhound]

After watching videos, I went on a ride with some hills (for the midwest).

Question 1: would you describe this falling method as the seated version of a standing climb? In other words, I felt like following this method - best I could - had me essentially trying to force the pedals down with my body weight the way one does when standing.

The difference, of course, is the balance issue. When standing, your weight is above your feet so it actually feels more natural, whereas this falling method is different in that your weight is in front of your saddle so you feel like you're falling. Tell me I'm doing it wrong, but I thought "a-ha, it's like moving my weight onto the pedal as if I were standing except I'm keeping a lot of my weight on the saddle."

Question 2: do you need a higher gear than spinning up a hill to provide resistance to your pedal? I experimented and discovered I couldn't low gear it because the force is too great on the pedal - i.e., it doesn't support my weight.

Question 3: would other coaches criticize me for stomping?

[eippo1]

A question that is both sincere and snarky:

If we learned to walk at a very young age without anyone really teaching us, why do you think we can't learn to properly pedal a bike without being taught?

My take on this is that there is learning to do it and then learning to do it well. I'd argue that most people are terrible walkers and are really just doing some controlled stumbling. Take a look at a ballet dancer or someone trained in the martial arts and compare the way they walk to someone else. Same thing when you get someone skilled at trail running vs. pavement runners. They usually have a gait that is a bit more mindful and light-footed.

Then there's the truly skilled at getting off a bike. Anyone can do that, you say, but then you watch some of the best cyclocrossers do it and it looks like magic. Yeah, these are all things we learned to do on our own, but they can all be done better. Even walking, breathing, sitting, & observing.

[Ti Designs]

After watching videos, I went on a ride with some hills (for the midwest).

Question 1: would you describe this falling method as the seated version of a standing climb? In other words, I felt like following this method - best I could - had me essentially trying to force the pedals down with my body weight the way one does when standing.

The difference, of course, is the balance issue. When standing, your weight is above your feet so it actually feels more natural, whereas this falling method is different in that your weight is in front of your saddle so you feel like you're falling. Tell me I'm doing it wrong, but I thought "a-ha, it's like moving my weight onto the pedal as if I were standing except I'm keeping a lot of my weight on the saddle."

Question 2: do you need a higher gear than spinning up a hill to provide resistance to your pedal? I experimented and discovered I couldn't low gear it because the force is too great on the pedal - i.e., it doesn't support my weight.

Question 3: would other coaches criticize me for stomping?

Answer 1: pedaling out of the saddle gets way more complicated. In the saddle you can make the assumption about where the hips are, so it's two pivots and two sets of muscles. Take the fixed position of the hips out and there are all sorts of other variables. I would rather not try to answer a simple question with a more complex one...

Answer 2: In one ride you've figured out what most of the academic studies on pedal stroke fail to understand. Yes, you need enough gear under you to support your body weight. If there isn't enough resistance at the pedals you'll wind up putting the body weight back on your hands.

Answer 3: Probably. Look at most coaching programs, they make the assumption that everybody knows how to pedal, so they all skip right to FTP testing.

[dnc]

I've been putting my pedal stroke program on video for the last two months, but I'm still arguing with a lawyer about maintaing the rights to the program. It seems the guy who came up with the Total Emersion method of teaching swimming technique lost the right to sell it. I'm more interested in making better riders than making lots of money (both would be nice...) so I'm planning on having the whole thing up before Thanksgiving.

For now there are the original videos I made in my basement:

http://edsasslercoaching.com/the-program/the-concept/


In those videos why is the front wheel set higher than rear wheel. Are you saying it's wrong to ride in the aero drops position. By following your advice about what to do with upper body weight a rider is increasing stress on the lower back, which is one of the root causes of severe (on the bike only) lower back pain.

[brockd15]

...I'd argue that most people are terrible walkers and are really just doing some controlled stumbling.

https://media.giphy.com/media/Xs0lSicl63cK4/giphy.gif

[Dead Man]

By following your advice about what to do with upper body weight a rider is increasing stress on the lower back, which is one of the root causes of severe (on the bike only) lower back pain.

Contrary to what? Sitting upright, or putting weight on your hands? Shouldn't be doing either of those.

If your back hurts, there's something wrong with your position. Or your back, I guess.. but assuming you have a requisite flexibility, a bike that fits, and your saddle position is dialed in, this IS the position you should be in - pivoted forward off the hips (not the lower back), hands light on the bars, weight split between the pedals and your butt - emphasis on the pedals.

[benb]

I'd be curious what this theory/technique says about riding on your slow days and when you're exhausted.

I had "one of those days" today. Yesterday I was fine, rode about 15 miles, some dirt. Got off the bike and did some core exercises (planks, crunches).

Today I couldn't really hold myself up.. riding was a disaster. Super exhausted. Very hard to keep good posture on the bike. I'm ready for a good rest but I get like this a lot when I'm super fatigued. It literally "felt like the bike got longer."

[Dead Man]

I'd be curious what this theory/technique says about riding on your slow days and when you're exhausted.

I had "one of those days" today. Yesterday I was fine, rode about 15 miles, some dirt. Got off the bike and did some core exercises (planks, crunches).

Today I couldn't really hold myself up.. riding was a disaster. Super exhausted. Very hard to keep good posture on the bike. I'm ready for a good rest but I get like this a lot when I'm super fatigued. It literally "felt like the bike got longer."

Sounds like it's the opposite for you and me... seems the tireder I get, the more I lean forward and engage the glutes, since they don't ever seem to wear out.

[benb]

Could just be a fit and/or exhaustion thing. Like I said I did some planks & stuff yesterday, before the ride I would not have said I felt like my core was sore/tired but I got on and rode into a headwind for about the first 1/2 of the ride, riding in the drops almost the whole time. All of a sudden my back was just exhausted.

I didn't really get in much of my "prep" type work last winter as I'd been hurt.

I do have plenty of days where I feel like you do.. lean over more and let your glutes do the work and it's fine. In general all of this works better for me when I'm riding harder rather than easier though. If I'm exhausted & I try to go out and do an easy recovery ride that's where posture becomes a challenge.

[Ti Designs]

In those videos why is the front wheel set higher than rear wheel. Are you saying it's wrong to ride in the aero drops position. By following your advice about what to do with upper body weight a rider is increasing stress on the lower back, which is one of the root causes of severe (on the bike only) lower back pain.

Here's something I've never been able to get across to anyone: There are multiple ways of powering a bike. On a flat road the inertia of the rider + bike is a system of energy, the rider need only add to that. Smaller muscles with less mechanical advantage can be used, which is why I suggest using the quads. Going up hills the bike must be accelerated against gravity, there's a need for greater torque. In doing this effectively, the largest muscle group should be used - glutes. There's a biomechanical reason for shutting down other muscle groups, it's called fatigue and injury. Spikes in muscle tension cause fatigue. Tension across any given fiber of a muscle is tension/width of the muscle (a bit of oversimplification here, muscle recruitment order isn't that simple). Using smaller muscles to add energy to a system is fine, asking small muscles to overcome a load isn't. Then there's the injury bit. The common understanding is that pushing harder gears on hills is bad for your knees. This is true if you're using your quads because the connective tissue from the vastus laterallis goes over the patella, creating a large sheer force. Sheer force (the kneecap being pulled into the joint) + range of motion = injury.

Here's one the automotive engineers will get. In engines there's something called detonation (knocking). It's when thermal expansion starts before top dead center (TDC), creating two opposing forces. You have thermal expansion pushing down on the piston, yet the piston is still moving up. The characteristic curve of the force on the cylinder head is the same as the tension at the patella when a rider starts pushing down before the crank gets to 12:00. Humans should have knock sensors, their knees would last longer...

[weisan]

>Here's something I've never been able to get across to anyone...

Oh please, c'mmon Ti pal.... Even the great Einstein was able to get across the most complex concept using E = mc 2, surely you can do better than that!


Thanks for keep trying...

[weisan]

>>>Sheer force (the kneecap being pulled into the joint) + range of motion = injury.

I have personally tested this theory and can vouch for its validity. :D

[93legendti]

Here's something I've never been able to get across to anyone: There are multiple ways of powering a bike. On a flat road the inertia of the rider + bike is a system of energy, the rider need only add to that. Smaller muscles with less mechanical advantage can be used, which is why I suggest using the quads. Going up hills the bike must be accelerated against gravity, there's a need for greater torque. In doing this effectively, the largest muscle group should be used - glutes. There's a biomechanical reason for shutting down other muscle groups, it's called fatigue and injury. Spikes in muscle tension cause fatigue. Tension across any given fiber of a muscle is tension/width of the muscle (a bit of oversimplification here, muscle recruitment order isn't that simple). Using smaller muscles to add energy to a system is fine, asking small muscles to overcome a load isn't. Then there's the injury bit. The common understanding is that pushing harder gears on hills is bad for your knees. This is true if you're using your quads because the connective tissue from the vastus laterallis goes over the patella, creating a large sheer force. Sheer force (the kneecap being pulled into the joint) + range of motion = injury.

Here's one the automotive engineers will get. In engines there's something called detonation (knocking). It's when thermal expansion starts before top dead center (TDC), creating two opposing forces. You have thermal expansion pushing down on the piston, yet the piston is still moving up. The characteristic curve of the force on the cylinder head is the same as the tension at the patella when a rider starts pushing down before the crank gets to 12:00. Humans should have knock sensors, their knees would last longer...

Your message re 4 different ways to climb has gotten across to those of us who pay attention:


You missed my hill climbing class over the winter. The idea was to break hill climbing down to the basic 4 ways of climbing, and make the workload so hard that it would be impossible to stick with just one. So, four ways of climbing: Seated, pushing a big gear. I've gone over this a lot on this forum, the idea is to get your body weight perched over the pedal and use the glutes to drive the pedal down. It should feel like your almost falling into the pedal, if you've ever seen Eddy Merckx climb... Seated spinning - this is an easy one to understand, but it uses too much of the quads which tend to burn out. Standing and sustaining. This is where the hip is right over the pedal, the knee is almost straight, the body is upright, and you drop your body weight into it from the hip. Feels odd at first, but I've found I can bring my heart rate down while others are suffering by doing this. Lastly there's sprinter's position when you have to muscle through a steep section or you're doing the Pantani thing, sprinting to gain speed and sitting and spinning to maintain.

If you have a good grasp of all four of those you understand that longer efforts become a problem in asset allocation. use any one method too much and you start to pay the price. Those who don't learn the different methods still pay the price - their quads burn.

Work on the components of being a good climber individually, identify weaknesses and work on them, next spring put the whole picture together.

Pedal stroke - I can't stress this one enough, if you're not firing the muscles in the right order at the right time, you're wasting lots of energy and going slow. It's not just the one legged pedal stroke, it's doing it correctly and really getting the feel for where the power is.

Leg speed - this is one so few people get. Take a new rider, put 'em on a trainer with almost no resistance and have them pedal at 100 RPMs and watch their heart rate rise. It's not the wattage they're putting out, it's just asking them to fire muscles that fast. Every study I've seen on non cyclists claims the most efficient RPM range is around 75 RPMs, because they have no leg speed to speak of. If you're going to gain power at higher cadences, you can't be working hard just to pedal air at that speed.

Strength - fatigue is you doing damage to your muscles. Exceed their pull strength and muscles form tears. Get to the gym, build up fiber strength and you don't feel the same fatigue.


The stuff about power to weight goes without saying...

Technique - learn how to climb. Better yet, learn how to climb as many ways as you can. Climbing in the saddle turning a gear, climbing in a bigger gear on power, climbing out of the saddle in sustain mode, getting out of the saddle to gain momentum...

As for the fixed gear thing, I don't know that I would tell someone hundreds of miles away to just get a fixed gear. I've seen way too many people on fixed gears who don't have a clue what they're doing. The internet is the worst place to get advice on this, everybody is an expert ('cept me!)

[OtayBW]

^ Thanks for reposting.

[dnc]

Here's something I've never been able to get across to anyone: There are multiple ways of powering a bike. On a flat road the inertia of the rider + bike is a system of energy, the rider need only add to that. Smaller muscles with less mechanical advantage can be used, which is why I suggest using the quads. Going up hills the bike must be accelerated against gravity, there's a need for greater torque. In doing this effectively, the largest muscle group should be used - glutes. There's a biomechanical reason for shutting down other muscle groups, it's called fatigue and injury. Spikes in muscle tension cause fatigue. Tension across any given fiber of a muscle is tension/width of the muscle (a bit of oversimplification here, muscle recruitment order isn't that simple). Using smaller muscles to add energy to a system is fine, asking small muscles to overcome a load isn't. Then there's the injury bit. The common understanding is that pushing harder gears on hills is bad for your knees. This is true if you're using your quads because the connective tissue from the vastus laterallis goes over the patella, creating a large sheer force. Sheer force (the kneecap being pulled into the joint) + range of motion = injury.

Here's one the automotive engineers will get. In engines there's something called detonation (knocking). It's when thermal expansion starts before top dead center (TDC), creating two opposing forces. You have thermal expansion pushing down on the piston, yet the piston is still moving up. The characteristic curve of the force on the cylinder head is the same as the tension at the patella when a rider starts pushing down before the crank gets to 12:00. Humans should have knock sensors, their knees would last longer...

I still don't understand your technique. Are you combining 'falling on the pedals' with the basic circular technique. Are you able to use the glutes without falling on the pedals while quads are shut down. If so, in what direction are the glutes applying force to the cranks. What muscles would you be using when riding at close to maximal power output during a flat non technical time trial.

[Ti Designs]

Just revisiting this thread for a second for a quick update...


I've been looking at a lot of the studies that have been done which conclude that pedaling in circles is not the best way to power a bike. Many of these studies look at the differences between elite level riders and average riders, the conclusion there is that they simply push down harder. This is where the raw data from pedal based strain gauges and hub based strain gauges diverges a little - but who looks at raw data? Pedals see force, in the case of the average rider they see a lower peak force over a longer time, as the rider is pushing too long. The hub sees the downward force times the mechanical advantage of the crank, so it sees a greater force when the crank is at 3:00 and nothing (from downward force) when the crank is at 6:00. The software smooths out the data into a curve from which they can generate a number at any time which the rider can understand. In that process the timing information about force is lost.

My conclusion in all of this isn't just that elite riders push down harder (they probably do), but they time the impulse to be centered around where the crank is at 3:00. This is a hard thing to do because your dominant skill set is standing and walking, where you support body weight at a far lower point. I've always said the best athletes are the ones who can shut down their body's previous skill sets...

Now the question becomes how to teach this. I've gone back to my plate loading fit bike to start this process, but I think it can be learned just by eliminating the bottom of the pedal stroke. Two little words of warning: First, before this can work, you need to map the correct muscle. If you can't get your glutes to support your full body weight while the pedal is moving, step 2 ain't gonna work (going back to the basic leaning process, no skipping steps). The second warning is for those who have done the one leg drill and found that it makes the saddle really uncomfortable. Taking the bottom of the pedal stroke away is much, much worse.

http://edsasslercoaching.com/the-program/power-a-work-in-progress/

My plate loading fit bike can be seen in the second video here:

http://edsasslercoaching.com/pedal-stroke-101/stage-1/

[93legendti]

^ Thanks for reposting.

You're welcome (I think you're referring to my post?)

[Waldo]

Thanks very much, Ed. I've always been a pedal masher climbing, never comfortable spinning uphill. No matter how much I tried, spinning felt aerobically and physiologically inefficient. I appreciate the reassurance that I've been doing it -- somewhat -- right all along.

[needmobikes]

wow, never really given it much thought other than "go." In hindsight, ditto to what Waldo said about powering though versus spinning my lil legs away; I do the same. It is pretty difficult to train the fast-twitch muscles while your lungs/legs/everything else hurts within the moment you need form the most, i.e., during exhaustive efforts. Any dummy-proof suggestions or short exercise tips for the average non-pro?

Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk

[OtayBW]

You're welcome (I think you're referring to my post?)
Yes.

[soulspinner]

Thanks Ti, we are never too old to learn new things.

[93legendti]

Yes.

My pleasure

[laupsi]

wow, never really given it much thought other than "go." In hindsight, ditto to what Waldo said about powering though versus spinning my lil legs away; I do the same. It is pretty difficult to train the fast-twitch muscles while your lungs/legs/everything else hurts within the moment you need form the most, i.e., during exhaustive efforts. Any dummy-proof suggestions or short exercise tips for the average non-pro?

Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk

I'm proof that spinning works! Use to be a grinder, felt comfy pushing a large gear at lower cadences, 75-85 rpm. Got myself a coach and started spinning more. Not only has my power increased, riding the same amount if not less, I'm older, but my endurance and power have both improved.

When outside doing endurance work, 3-4 hours above 200 watts, the last hour does get difficult maintaining wattage; that is, unless I downshift and spin. I'm a case study in that spinning to maintain and produce more wattage over the slow burn works and works better. Sorry, I don't believe! And it didn't take very long to adapt to the higher cadences.

[Ti Designs]

Sorry, I don't believe! And it didn't take very long to adapt to the higher cadences.

I get this a lot. The dominant skill set is from walking or standing - using the quads to push down. Most people I start working with don't even realize they are firing the wrong muscle group, it's just what they've programmed their body to do. The quads don't generate much sustainable torque, so if you never learned how to recruit and isolate the glutes, becoming a high cadence rider makes sense.

Why limit yourself to one way of riding? I know how to spin the pedals (I own most of the roller race records in my area), but I can't see climbing that way. On a gap ride in Vermont my friend (and coaching client - sounds like a hair club ad) found he didn't have the legs for another gap, so we took the flat way home. At 25 MPH. Having more than one way to pedal a bike is a wonderful thing...

I'm working on filming the second part of my pedal stroke program - using the glutes now. I plan on having the whole series up this month. I'm getting lots of hits on the original videos and lots of requests for the rest of the program...

[laupsi]

I get this a lot. The dominant skill set is from walking or standing - using the quads to push down. Most people I start working with don't even realize they are firing the wrong muscle group, it's just what they've programmed their body to do. The quads don't generate much sustainable torque, so if you never learned how to recruit and isolate the glutes, becoming a high cadence rider makes sense.

Why limit yourself to one way of riding? I know how to spin the pedals (I own most of the roller race records in my area), but I can't see climbing that way. On a gap ride in Vermont my friend (and coaching client - sounds like a hair club ad) found he didn't have the legs for another gap, so we took the flat way home. At 25 MPH. Having more than one way to pedal a bike is a wonderful thing...

I'm working on filming the second part of my pedal stroke program - using the glutes now. I plan on having the whole series up this month. I'm getting lots of hits on the original videos and lots of requests for the rest of the program...

interesting you can point out I'm utilizing the "wrong muscle" group when you've never seen me pedal a bike. perhaps I was juiced, apparently this would explain how I could possible be riding, w/out believing in your "falling on the pedal mantra" and do so effectively.

all your posturing and videos are all well and good but when it comes to pedaling a bike you're taking something so utterly simple and trying to make it very complicated. I'm all for folks having different opinions but please stop behaving like those of us on the forum are just a bunch of disciples just waiting to "see the light" on your "un provable" method of bike pedaling. enough already, move on and let the rest of us ride!

[benb]

all your posturing and videos are all well and good but when it comes to pedaling a bike you're taking something so utterly simple and trying to make it very complicated. I'm all for folks having different opinions but please stop behaving like those of us on the forum are just a bunch of disciples just waiting to "see the light" on your "un provable" method of bike pedaling. enough already, move on and let the rest of us ride!

I think a lot of successful cyclists do figure this out on their own but as a coach it's a valuable thing for him to teach and share as their are lots of beginners who don't get it. The thing is whether or not it is actually hard enough to require all the fancy videos and coaching or whether you just need a decent fit and a paragraph or two from whatever book... it's not like this stuff is not mentioned in cycling texts.

[false_Aest]

enough already, move on and let the rest of us ride!

Brah,

Come out to Cali. I got a spare couch in my van in Venice and a pretty effin' good line on some mad herb and promise to take you on some monumental climbs.

[numbskull]

I'm proof that spinning works! Use to be a grinder, felt comfy pushing a large gear at lower cadences, 75-85 rpm. Got myself a coach and started spinning more. Not only has my power increased, riding the same amount if not less, I'm older, but my endurance and power have both improved.


............ I'm a case study in that spinning to maintain and produce more wattage over the slow burn works and works better. ......



interesting you can point out I'm utilizing the "wrong muscle" group when you've never seen me pedal a bike. perhaps I was juiced, apparently this would explain how I could possible be riding, w/out believing in your "falling on the pedal mantra" and do so effectively.

all your posturing and videos are all well and good but when it comes to pedaling a bike you're taking something so utterly simple and trying to make it very complicated. I'm all for folks having different opinions but please stop behaving like those of us on the forum are just a bunch of disciples just waiting to "see the light" on your "un provable" method of bike pedaling. enough already, move on and let the rest of us ride!

Why such vitriol?

For something you consider so "utterly simple" I note you had to hire a coach before you learned what you know now.

As for being a "case study" for high cadence riding, you are more of an anecdote.......and I'd think someone who trumpets the benefits of science in his avatar would know full well that anecdotes are proof of nothing. So what is your point other than you don't like the OP?

If you found something that works for you and you're sticking with it.......great. All I think TiD is doing is pointing out that there are other ways to pedal a bike that may not come naturally to most but can be effective in certain circumstances. He is not denigrating high cadence riding (to the contrary his pedal stroke drills most certainly can improve one's ability to "spin") just preaching that it is not the only or necessarily best way to attack a hill.

[guido]

enough already, move on and let the rest of us ride!

Go ride then and stop bad mouthing the technique if it doesn't work for you. No one is forcing you to read this thread. :no:

[Ti Designs]

interesting you can point out I'm utilizing the "wrong muscle" group when you've never seen me pedal a bike.

Let's see, I've been coaching over a dozen new riders each fall for the past 15 years, 80% use the wrong muscle to push down, it's an educated guess. You could even say it's Harvard educated...

I work in a bike shop, right about now most of our serious customers are looking for ways of showing up next spring with some fitness. There are plain trainers, but you run the danger of lapsing into a coma while you mindlessly turn the pedals. Then there are training programs and pedal based video games, which keep people entertained... If last spring was any indication, I would say most of them didn't keep their owners entertained well enough.

My program offers something a little different, a learning process. All of the power based training programs make the bold assumption that you know how to pedal, so the gains are fitness. My clients find that gains aren't just about fitness - I'm not going to be pushing fitness for months. Seeing progress is a far better way of keeping people in the program.

I also offer a full money back guarantee, if you don't like my program I'll give you your money back.

[laupsi]

Why such vitriol?

For something you consider so "utterly simple" I note you had to hire a coach before you learned what you know now.

As for being a "case study" for high cadence riding, you are more of an anecdote.......and I'd think someone who trumpets the benefits of science in his avatar would know full well that anecdotes are proof of nothing. So what is your point other than you don't like the OP?

If you found something that works for you and you're sticking with it.......great. All I think TiD is doing is pointing out that there are other ways to pedal a bike that may not come naturally to most but can be effective in certain circumstances. He is not denigrating high cadence riding (to the contrary his pedal stroke drills most certainly can improve one's ability to "spin") just preaching that it is not the only or necessarily best way to attack a hill.

reasons for me hiring a coach are varied and many and have very little to do w/wanting advice on how to pedal my bikes

anecdote I'm not, more research supports higher cadence wattage over low cadence output, I just happen to find this research correlates directly to my experiences. on long climbs many things happen, we do what we have to just to get up the damn hill. over time, we all figure out quite readily what works and what doesn't. guess someday our kids will have lessons on how to take that first step. apparently many folks will buy into this too!

if only it was "another way to pedal a bike".

this whole thing is mind wrenching. it's like pointing out there's a sky above us and doing so over and over and over... it's true, I don't have to read these posts, typically I do not. "if you can't play nice pick up your toys and leave". again if I've insulted you I'm sorry, it wasn't my intention to insult. it was a goal of mine however to reasonably point out that riding and pedaling a bike isn't what TiD makes it out to be. all the attention and "wow" comments crack me up. please go on, everyone is entitled and I applaud that. I simply think its comical to a point of being ridiculous.

[ergott]

I've always approached this by pushing with my heals not my toes. I believe it achieves the same thing, but might make for an easier visual for some people.

Many people can't do this because their saddle is too high. My pedaling is very "heals down", not toes. To get the most power out of this, I have to really straighten my back and roll my hips forward. Leads to a more aero position to boot.

This might help too. If you do it right you get a serious case of "concrete butt" when you get lactic in the glutes on a real hard effort. If you never feel the burn in your glutes you probably aren't firing them hard enough into the pedals.

:beer:

[ergott]

more research supports higher cadence wattage over low cadence output

I also happen to think that higher cadence and firing the glutes aren't mutually exclusive. When I'm getting it all together right the cadence is up and the rest of the riders are behind me!:D

[laupsi]

Let's see, I've been coaching over a dozen new riders each fall for the past 15 years, 80% use the wrong muscle to push down, it's an educated guess. You could even say it's Harvard educated...

yes and the constant barrage of pointing out your credentials is also a bit tiring. we know already, please give it a rest!

[AngryScientist]

yes and the constant barrage of pointing out your credentials is also a bit tiring. we know already, please give it a rest!

this is an honest question, and not a snark: if you dont want to hear what Ed has to say, or get irritated at his postings, why do you open the thread?

i just dont get posts like your above. if you're walking down a street with 100 restaurants, and you know that you HATE shellfish, why even go through the door of the crabshack???

[Mark McM]

anecdote I'm not, more research supports higher cadence wattage over low cadence output, I just happen to find this research correlates directly to my experiences. on long climbs many things happen, we do what we have to just to get up the damn hill. over time, we all figure out quite readily what works and what doesn't.

This study found that humans continuously adapt their walking gait in response to external changes to maximize efficiency. I see no reason that humans wouldn't also naturally adapt their pedaling for maximum efficiency also - especially since pedaling a simpler motion than walking.

http://www.cell.com/current-biology/abstract/S0960-9822(15)00958-6


Highlights


姫eople readily adapt established gait patterns to minimize energy use
姫eople converge on new energetic optima within minutes, even for small cost savings
俵pdated predictions about energetically optimal gaits allow re-convergence within seconds
髷nergetic cost is not just an outcome of movement, but also continuously shapes it



Summary

People prefer to move in ways that minimize their energetic cost [ 1? ]. For example, people tend to walk at a speed that minimizes energy use per unit distance [ 5? ] and, for that speed, they select a step frequency that makes walking less costly [ 3, 4, 6, 10?2 ]. Although aspects of this preference appear to be established over both evolutionary [ 9, 13?5 ] and developmental [ 16 ] timescales, it remains unclear whether people can also optimize energetic cost in real time. Here we show that during walking, people readily adapt established motor programs to minimize energy use. To accomplish this, we used robotic exoskeletons to shift people痴 energetically optimal step frequency to frequencies higher and lower than normally preferred. In response, we found that subjects adapted their step frequency to converge on the new energetic optima within minutes and in response to relatively small savings in cost (<5%). When transiently perturbed from their new optimal gait, subjects relied on an updated prediction to rapidly re-converge within seconds. Our collective findings indicate that energetic cost is not just an outcome of movement, but also plays a central role in continuously shaping it.

[laupsi]

this is an honest question, and not a snark: if you dont want to hear what Ed has to say, or get irritated at his postings, why do you open the thread?

i just dont get posts like your above. if you're walking down a street with 100 restaurants, and you know that you HATE shellfish, why even go through the door of the crabshack???

it's like the guy selling snake oil on the corner, after a while I'm gonna tell him what I think

[dave thompson]

....snake oil?.......man that's harsh!

[Ti Designs]

This study found that humans continuously adapt their walking gait in response to external changes to maximize efficiency. I see no reason that humans wouldn't also naturally adapt their pedaling for maximum efficiency also - especially since pedaling is a simpler motion than walking.

And by simpler you mean the pedal controls movement, so you couldn't make the pedals travel in anything other than a circle. So with almost no feedback system, you're saying that people adapt how they pedal. Any other examples of humans doing something like that?

Just learning to walk is something that needs the ability to fail. If you grew up with some kind of robot skeleton that didn't let you fall, you would never learn how to walk. That's the scenario you're talking about on a bike...

[Ti Designs]

....snake oil?.......man that's harsh!

Need something to quiet down those squeeky snakes!


We're talking about cycling here, the combination of bike and rider forming a vehicle. There are at least 100 threads about the performance of the bike to every one about the performance of the rider, yet the rider is 99% of the equation. People spend hundreds of dollars on ceramic bearings to save .01% but the concept of looking at the dynamics of pedaling the bike is snake oil sales, and I'm the idiot...

[Mark McM]

And by simpler you mean the pedal controls movement, so you couldn't make the pedals travel in anything other than a circle. So with almost no feedback system, you're saying that people adapt how they pedal. Any other examples of humans doing something like that?

There's plenty of feedback. I push down on the pedal when the crank is vertical - bike doesn't accelerate. I push down on the pedal when the crank is horizontal - bike accelerates. Push on the pedals with the cranks at various orientations, and you quickly learn what works and what doesn't. With more practice, you lean the subtleties of how hard to push when the cranks are at various orientations. With more practice still, the body learns to time the muscle contractions to get the most effect with the least effort.

[ergott]

This study found that humans continuously adapt their walking gait in response to external changes to maximize efficiency.

At least the way I look at it, it's more about power as well.

I'm no coach, but when I spoke to one of my buddies about how I pedal, they tried it and noticed more power right away.

There's no doubt in my mind that many riders don't fire their glutes which develop more power than quads do. I believe there is more than one approach to getting them involved.

[laupsi]

People spend hundreds of dollars on ceramic bearings to save .01% but the concept of looking at the dynamics of pedaling the bike is snake oil sales, and I'm the idiot...

mine was a metaphor and because I didn't mention that others spend foolishly on mindless components doesn't imply it doesn't happen or that I don't agree. "Idiot", your words, not mine!

[Ti Designs]

There's plenty of feedback. I push down on the pedal when the crank is vertical - bike doesn't accelerate. I push down on the pedal when the crank is horizontal - bike accelerates. Push on the pedals with the cranks at various orientations, and you quickly learn what works and what doesn't. With more practice, you lean the subtleties of how hard to push when the cranks are at various orientations. With more practice still, the body learns to time the muscle contractions to get the most effect with the least effort.


Not what the data from lots of Pioneer power meters is saying, but certainly what lots of people think happens. The part I like the best is the customer satisfaction numbers between power meters. Pioneer, with their head that shows force vectors every 30 degrees has a low satisfaction rating and a high return rate because it's telling people they're pushing down at the bottom.

[fuzzalow]

it's like the guy selling snake oil on the corner, after a while I'm gonna tell him what I think

No worries. You are entitled to your opinion, however gruffly it may spew forth onto the keyboard at the time you wrote.

But consider this before taking it on yourself to be so critical and harsh: the author of the piece is in here trying to do good. He was not solicited to offer help. He is not in here, like some, shilling for business as a coach or some other service in leeching off of this forum. He puts what he knows out here for everyone. Which includes everyone who agrees, disagrees or wants to take a potshot at what the author wrote. Doin' that's easy.

But the author put it out there. That's not easy, that is hard. Which is more than most who gripe about his writing has ever done as far as putting something out there. Negativity is easy to do. Making positive things is really, really hard to do. Don't think so - HA! Then show me otherwise, otherwise....

So c'mon, give the guy a break.

[numbskull]

reasons for me hiring a coach are varied and many and have very little to do w/wanting advice on how to pedal my bikes
.

OK, but I think he may have you using too much drop.

[cfox]

No worries. You are entitled to your opinion, however gruffly it may spew forth onto the keyboard at the time you wrote.

But consider this before taking it on yourself to be so critical and harsh: the author of the piece is in here trying to do good. He was not solicited to offer help. He is not in here, like some, shilling for business as a coach or some other service in leeching off of this forum. He puts what he knows out here for everyone. Which includes everyone who agrees, disagrees or wants to take a potshot at what the author wrote. Doin' that's easy.

But the author put it out there. That's not easy, that is hard. Which is more than most who gripe about his writing has ever done as far as putting something out there. Negativity is easy to do. Making positive things is really, really hard to do. Don't think so - HA! Then show me otherwise, otherwise....

So c'mon, give the guy a break.

Most adults aren't big fans of unsolicited advice. When it comes in the form of "you are all wrong and I'm a misunderstood genius" it can be especially off-putting. Talk about negative. He seems motivated by a desire to prove people wrong rather than to help. I hope I'm wrong about that.

[CunegoFan]

At least the way I look at it, it's more about power as well.

I'm no coach, but when I spoke to one of my buddies about how I pedal, they tried it and noticed more power right away.

Did they measure more Watts per ml of O2?

[93legendti]

it's like the guy selling snake oil on the corner, after a while I'm gonna tell him what I think

It's exactly like "selling snake oil", except Ed isn't selling anything. Many here appreciate Ed's free advice, as I do. Many say his advice has helped them, as I do. I promise, I am not a shill for Ed's free advice.

[Bostic]

I don't know Ti Designs, will probably never meet him. I've been visualizing what he has posted in the thread about falling into the pedals and it's been working for me the past month. I'm definitely not a spinner. My climbing cadence hovers around 68rpm. I've tried being a spinner, for some time over the years. You would think it would make sense since I spend quite a deal of my free time at my drums playing constant 16th notes at 210bpm and higher with my legs for a few hours at a time when I'm at my rehearsal studio.

[ergott]

Did they measure more Watts per ml of O2?
No measuring. Just faster up comparable inclines. Good enough for me.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[dnc]

It's exactly like "selling snake oil", except Ed isn't selling anything. Many here appreciate Ed's free advice, as I do. Many say his advice has helped them, as I do. I promise, I am not a shill for Ed's free advice.

Is it only when climbing his technique improves performance ?

[93legendti]

Is it only when climbing his technique improves performance ?

I also do his one legged drills and I think it helps when cycling on the flats.

[fuzzalow]

Most adults aren't big fans of unsolicited advice. When it comes in the form of "you are all wrong and I'm a misunderstood genius" it can be especially off-putting. Talk about negative. He seems motivated by a desire to prove people wrong rather than to help. I hope I'm wrong about that.

That is a perfectly valid point. And the approach on how the author wants to both get his message noticed, this is after all the internet, and how he wants to convey his content, is completely up to him. How effective that is and how it may or may not rub people the wrong way is also completely up to how the author wants to approach doing what he wants to do.

Ultimately, the author wants his efforts to come to some positive result - otherwise why waste the time and effort? I don't think it is asking too much to give a guy some slack because the way he has written somehow grates on my tender sensibilities.

In fairness and as a reader, I like to value content over delivery - as long as the writer actually has something to say. And this writer knows what he is talking about and is in here trying to help.

C'mon you work in finance, there is always a time somewhere you gotta work with somebody who rubs you the wrong way but puts up great P&L - so you gotta deal with it because the bigger picture is where the money talks and the BS walks. Same thing here - profit from this guy and then who cares about the minor differences.

[Ti Designs]

Is it only when climbing his technique improves performance ?

I've gotten very little of my pedal stroke program up so far, but that's changing. The idea is that you have two large muscle groups that produce almost all of the power, glutes and quads. The problem most people have (shown in my original videos) is that they've learned from walking or standing, so they use their quads for almost everything, and not when they should. The first step is to break down the pedal stroke and figure out which muscles should work when, and more to the point when they shouldn't.

The glutes generate lots of torque, the quads generate more leg speed, but not as much torque. This is where the idea of "a watt is a watt" goes out the window. Hill climbing is working against gravity, which means there is constant acceleration working against you. You need torque to overcome that. On the flats it becomes a system of inertia, you're adding power to a system and a wider cadence range is needed. There are no hard rules, but in general the glutes are used for climbing, quads for flat speed. The understanding of how they work and the control over when they are used is really what I teach.

[Samyoooo]

I've gotten very little of my pedal stroke program up so far, but that's changing. The idea is that you have two large muscle groups that produce almost all of the power, glutes and quads. The problem most people have (shown in my original videos) is that they've learned from walking or standing, so they use their quads for almost everything, and not when they should. The first step is to break down the pedal stroke and figure out which muscles should work when, and more to the point when they shouldn't.

The glutes generate lots of torque, the quads generate more leg speed, but not as much torque. This is where the idea of "a watt is a watt" goes out the window. Hill climbing is working against gravity, which means there is constant acceleration working against you. You need torque to overcome that. On the flats it becomes a system of inertia, you're adding power to a system and a wider cadence range is needed. There are no hard rules, but in general the glutes are used for climbing, quads for flat speed. The understanding of how they work and the control over when they are used is really what I teach.

What do you think of this Ti Design?

http://puu.sh/ngBRM.png

[Ti Designs]

I'm going to respond with a simple model of a human. Let's reduce it down to two large muscle groups, glutes and quads. Glutes are a much wider muscle group with a shorter contraction range. I would have to guess that the ratio of muscle fibers recruited between glutes and quads is at least 4:1, so they generate less displacement and far more force. If we look at the system of leverage we again find the glutes have more mechanical advantage.

In my oversimplified model, the glutes produce high force at low speed, the quads produce low force at high speed. I'll add to that by saying the range of speed generated by contraction of the glutes is somewhat small, while the range of speed generated by contraction of the quads is much wider. This is due to the lever system used, the distance from the knee's pivot to the point of attachment of the quad's connective tissue is short.

Applied to a bicycle, it's possible to use gear ratios to convert torque to angular speed or the other way around. This leads to the model of using the quads and a lower gear ratio of climb hills at higher cadence. At this point I'm going to need to bring in biomechanical efficiency. As motors, muscles are somewhat defective as their function effects their fuel delivery. Muscles under tension don't get blood flow. Blood has mass, which means blood flow has inertia - it's not an on/off switch, which is why biomechanical efficiency drops off at higher cadence.


At this point I return to my original claims - glutes are best used for climbing and high torque situations, given their strength and speed limitations, quads are best for acceleration and adding power to a system using their limited torque and wide range of leg speed.

[dnc]

What do you think of this Ti Design?

http://puu.sh/ngBRM.png


What would be the result if you used this technique in flat time trials ?

[benb]

I am mostly a believer in all this... I am also for the most part naturally a spinner. A lot of my interest in it is supporting good posture to keep weight off my hands.

My main thing is how is all of this supposed to work when you're at a recovery pace?

Some of what Ergott mentioned about fit crossing over with pedaling technique rings true to me as well.. at least for me when everything is set up right on the bike my hips roll forward, my spine stays neutral, and it becomes much easier for my core to support my upper body so I don't put any weight on my hands.

But pretty much no matter what this all seems to be somewhat dependent on power output.. if I try to go out and ride at a recovery pace (somewhere between 125-150w?) I notice it's harder to support my weight by force on the pedals. I've been experimenting a little with reducing my cadence below my normal cadence when trying to ride slow to see if that helps, but I'm not sure it's the best idea for recovery. Somewhere between "endurance" and "tempo" this problem completely goes away... at least for me by 200w my spine just does the right thing.

I did a recovery ride today.. seemingly things were working well, I was able to go out and ride at an average of about 125w for 30 minutes, my average cadence was 84 but there was quite a bit of traffic & stops in there. (I usually average 88 for most rides.)

[MattTuck]

^^^

Benb, my experience is similar. Pedaling at low resistance makes it very hard to create the necessary tension to keep weight of the hands. That is what I've found. Likewise, pedaling at high cadence with mid to low resistance is when I really feel if a saddle is working for me, because much more of the weight is supported by the saddle itself, as opposed to being driven into the pedals.

[benb]

And it may be that you just need to be stronger for it to work.

If my threshold goes up by 30w or so (and I think it does go up about that much when I'm really fit) my recovery pace would suddenly be high enough that I think the pedals would support my upper body weight even at a recovery pace.

And lots of the people shouting this stuff at us have 300w+ thresholds I think.:rolleyes:

[Ti Designs]

I can't find the still images I took to illustrate this, so I'm gonna subject you to a fitting video (that's not very good). Somewhere in there is the concept of where the center of gravity falls and how moving the hands back also brings the CG over the bottom bracket.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVlcjl05epA

[benb]

That's actually one of your better videos.. there is a lot in there.

No one has ever tried that hip ROM test with one pedal unclipped with me before. No one has ever mentioned the anterior tibialis test either.. I'm going to have to try those next time I'm on the trainer, though I know my current position doesn't cause my the AT to fire. I do think my most recent fit put me in a position that might have gotten me too close to the top of my hip ROM when I get down in the drops..

A couple things... I completely get your idea of using the different bar positions in different gears. But if you're not pedaling very hard sometimes you still don't want to be on the bar tops cause you need access to the brakes.

My only other thing is I swear sometimes I feel more weight on my hands on the tops than the hoods.. what the heck would cause that?

[Ti Designs]

My only other thing is I swear sometimes I feel more weight on my hands on the tops than the hoods.. what the heck would cause that?

In a word, habit. When you get right down to it, body position has everything to do with supporting your center of gravity over your feet and nothing to do with where your hands are. The handlebars are just some place to put your hands so you don't flip off the drivers as they try to kill you... So you're riding with your hands on tops, and you try to generate some force at the pedals. Habit says get the body weight on the pedals but your arms are in the way. Either you bend your arms and your triceps take up the load, or you keep your arms straight and your hands take the load. I keep telling my clients I'm gonna have a size run of rubber stems made just to teach them to keep their body weight off the bars.

[benb]

So this can actually just be your body fighting itself? Your torso should be moving down to put weight into the pedals and you are trying to keep it up so you hold yourself up with your arms?

That could be a factor for me. Interesting because my previous bike was super aggressive (at least 5cm lower bars) and I never had any weight on the hand issues.

[Ti Designs]

So this can actually just be your body fighting itself? Your torso should be moving down to put weight into the pedals and you are trying to keep it up so you hold yourself up with your arms?

I built a strain gauge into a Salsa adjustable stem to test this, sure 'nuff... It's still always going to be a two step process, first you need to get the body weight on the pedals, then you put the bars in the right place to keep the weight off. If the first part doesn't work, the second part can't.

If you don't understand the reasons in fitting, it all seems like black magic. I had a client who's end three fingers were going numb when she rode her bike. Other people sold her different bars, different stems, gloves, double wrapped tape... I loosened her helmet - the RocLok was pushing against C6/C7.

[unterhausen]

nice video. Now I understand why I was experiencing cramps in my anterior tibialis on a ride last year. Too bad I don't remember what I did with my position since then.

[stephenmarklay]

I get this a lot. The dominant skill set is from walking or standing - using the quads to push down. Most people I start working with don't even realize they are firing the wrong muscle group, it's just what they've programmed their body to do. The quads don't generate much sustainable torque, so if you never learned how to recruit and isolate the glutes, becoming a high cadence rider makes sense.

Why limit yourself to one way of riding? I know how to spin the pedals (I own most of the roller race records in my area), but I can't see climbing that way. On a gap ride in Vermont my friend (and coaching client - sounds like a hair club ad) found he didn't have the legs for another gap, so we took the flat way home. At 25 MPH. Having more than one way to pedal a bike is a wonderful thing...

I'm working on filming the second part of my pedal stroke program - using the glutes now. I plan on having the whole series up this month. I'm getting lots of hits on the original videos and lots of requests for the rest of the program...

I have learned a lot from your posts Ed. I actually changed my position based on your input and do think all in all it makes a ton of sense from a power and comfort standpoint.

However, I am not sure I agree that we all walk around using our quads. I would say that people can a do walk and run with a hip dominant motion and run with power from the glutes and posterior chain as much as anything.

[Ti Designs]

However, I am not sure I agree that we all walk around using our quads. I would say that people can a do walk and run with a hip dominant motion and run with power from the glutes and posterior chain as much as anything.

Anyone who's ever hiked up hill with a pack (myself included) will agree, but I'm talking about the go-to skill set in a specific circumstance. I fit people on bikes for a living, in each fitting I stop the pedal at 3:00 and ask the person to look down at their foot and push down. Almost everybody uses the quads, their hip moves back and they hold onto the bars to keep from launching themselves off the back of the seat. I'm still not sure why that is, understanding the learning process that made using the quads the dominant skill set might point me in the direction of how better to teach not to. Having watched a few hours of children learning how to walk, I'm starting to get the idea that it's visual. Your eyes are mounted in the front of your head, the quads rotate the foot into your field of view...

People would like to think that their motor functions are as intelligent as they are. The truth is you learned most of the basic motor functions before you were forming sentences, and more complex functions are built upon those. People don't pedal based on understanding how the muscles work, they pedal based on what kept them from falling down when they were 2.

[Samyoooo]

Read this https://www.docdroid.net/Ahn2vfz/perfect-condition.pdf.html

"This confusion of the terms force/strength with power is a fundamental analytical error. The
most efficient generation and transfer of power needs one dynamic ‘action’ to be ‘counteracted’ by
another dynamic action. i.e. you feed the reaction from each back to the other. The only way to do
that is to drive both pedals at the same time, in opposite directions. That cannot be done efficiently
(with Flecha’s right leg), because the ‘up’ muscles (TA especially) are too weak. Therefore we must
develop the diametrically opposite ‘quadrants’ at 12-2 o’clock and 6-8 (starting where Hincapie’s
legs are), since these major muscle groups are closely matched, enabling a better dynamic balance.
To do this to best advantage, saddle set-back is just as important as saddle height and a sure sign
of an imbalance in technique is ‘sitting on the rivet’. (which Armitstead is still ‘guilty’ of.)"

[stephenmarklay]

Anyone who's ever hiked up hill with a pack (myself included) will agree, but I'm talking about the go-to skill set in a specific circumstance. I fit people on bikes for a living, in each fitting I stop the pedal at 3:00 and ask the person to look down at their foot and push down. Almost everybody uses the quads, their hip moves back and they hold onto the bars to keep from launching themselves off the back of the seat. I'm still not sure why that is, understanding the learning process that made using the quads the dominant skill set might point me in the direction of how better to teach not to. Having watched a few hours of children learning how to walk, I'm starting to get the idea that it's visual. Your eyes are mounted in the front of your head, the quads rotate the foot into your field of view...

People would like to think that their motor functions are as intelligent as they are. The truth is you learned most of the basic motor functions before you were forming sentences, and more complex functions are built upon those. People don't pedal based on understanding how the muscles work, they pedal based on what kept them from falling down when they were 2.

I am absolutely certain you have a good handle on the situation. it is pretty interesting about why people become “quad dominant.” For fun as a hobby/job I train people in a small group setting. A very common movement disfunction I see is the inability to "use" the glutes and or having very little glute strength.

It is possible your clients, like mine, need to be retrained.

[Samyoooo]

"Can you picture a hefty great lever having weights fitted at one end, resting on the floor. It lays at
about 45° with the fulcrum 50cm off the floor. There’s no chainring and the cranks drive the lever
arm independently, a bit like PowerCranks, but the movement is only one third of a rev.

Alternatively, it could use a chain drive to lift the weight, but it has no handlebars, so you sit up on
the saddle with the arms hanging relaxed. I disagree with the silly idea of one-leg drills. The whole
point is to train ‘inter-limb’ co-ordination/balance/strength. The cranks are in the vertical position
so you have to push forward and pull back to do the lift. An old guy in the club tried it out, but he
only pushed the top crank - the lower crank didn’t even move! He just shrugged his shoulders and
said; “You can’t teach an old dog new tricks.” Riding ‘no-hands’ on the rollers or turbo-trainer puts
you in the same position. You can learn the co-ordination by smoothly pedalling-in-circles, but it’s
not a strength exercise. The correct ankle form is best learnt against high resistance, then you speed
it up every time you ride, so that the co-ordination is second nature and your acceleration electric.

This is my counter-argument to the two popular misconceptions of; “just push down” or “Pull up
as hard as you are pushing down.” That second pearl of ‘wisdom’ came from Victoria Pendleton.

The cranks go round in a circle, so there are three important tangential power transfer actions:-

1.) The push forward from 12 o'clock to 2. (quads)
2.) The push down from 2 o'clock to 5. (initially, quads and glutes, then hamstrings)
3.) The pull back from 5 o'clock to 8. (hamstrings)

Only 1.) and 3.) offer the opportunity to generate torque by balancing one leg against the other; i.e.
action and reaction reinforce each other. That balance should be the first thing on your mind, every
time you want to accelerate and/or lighten the load on the quads. Perfection is when all three have
become a smooth, relaxed, flowing, continuous movement. That gives you a feeling of elation and
puts a big smile on your (relaxed) face. You've arrived - this is truly riding ‘in-the-zone’.

The kinetic path for this action/reaction is very short and stable - across the pelvis, from hip to hip.
There should be no resultant force to move the hips forward, but a strong push will push you back,
which is fine, as the shape of the saddle supports that. NB: ‘Laid back’ climbers may sit so far back
you can’t see their saddle, but that mustn’t straighten the ‘lower’ leg (saddle too high), because the
hamstrings won’t be able to work effectively.

Sector 4, from 8 to 12, is the recovery phase. Trying to develop a strong pull up is a fool’s errand."



"“The most important thing is to keep an even pressure on the
pedals.” Well, that sounds reasonable, but what you actually want is “to keep an even tension in the
chain”. The subtle difference is important, for the reason given above. The pressure on one pedal is
determined by the strength of the muscle groups in use at any point and naturally varies. When you
consider the sum of the input to both cranks (”pedal with four legs”! - further ridicule from Hutch),
then torque can be nearly constant. For optimum efficiency all inputs should be broadly tangential,
that’s plain common sense. Let’s do an analysis of the complete circle:-

From the top, each ‘stroke’ is ‘initiated’ (gently) with the quads, as these are the only muscles that
can push the crank forward. The calves soon follow and the gluteals start work after 2 o’clock. The
hamstrings act first as hip extensors, but switch to knee flexors around 5 o’clock. The transitions are
all seamless, resulting in a turbine-smooth action. By 6 o’clock the calf muscles should be relaxed.
They’ve done their job and the foot is a ‘passive’ link, transmitting the pull of the hamstrings. This
pull is sustained to about 8 o’clock, but no further. The last third of a revolution should be treated as
the recovery phase, doing little more than lifting the leg and ensuring the ankle is fully flexed at 12
o’clock. The key fundamental is the balance you have between the pull back and the push forward."

[Samyoooo]

What would be the result if you used this technique in flat time trials ?

It appears that steeper frames were an accident, the idea of moving forward gives more power is invalid if you pedal with the physics technique

https://www.docdroid.net/KVuf3BL/fitness-may-5.pdf.html

[stephenmarklay]

It appears that steeper frames were an accident, the idea of moving forward gives more power is invalid if you pedal with the physics technique

https://www.docdroid.net/KVuf3BL/fitness-may-5.pdf.html

Thank you for posting article. It looks interesting and I am going take some time reading it.

After listening to Ed, I found that my bikes were just not fitting me well. At 6’0” and nearly a 34 inch inseam I have been forced to use a 35mm setback post which are very hard to come by just to get where I want to be.

My next bike will be a 72.5 or better yet a 72 STA and I can at least use a normal 25mm setback post which is easier to come by.

[benb]

Man those letters are next to impossible to read... a waste of time unless the guy learns to write.

[leftyfreak]

Man those letters are next to impossible to read... a waste of time unless the guy learns to write.

Glad I wasn't the only one...

[Samyoooo]

"Pulling 'up' (late, at 9 o'clock) helps to push down harder and work less on the 'bars. That may feel
powerful, but it also asks more of the quads, especially when standing up. Pulling back allows you
to turn the cranks with a 'seamless' technique that reduces the 'down force'. It makes the 'burn' feel
more like a warm glow than a pain; that's great! Bodyweight alone enables you to push down hard
enough. It is bad technique to add even more force at 3 o'clock, as many riders do by 'nodding'."

[Mark McM]

Man those letters are next to impossible to read... a waste of time unless the guy learns to write.

Here, let me boil it down for you:

"I'm right and everybody else is wrong, and my superficial analyses proves it!"

[Samyoooo]

Another bit

"You must wean yourself off
this 'instinct' that the 3 o'clock 'peak' is the dominant 'driver' in your biomechanics. Shift that focus
to 2 o'clock, then you'll get a better balance, with both legs 'driving' together and a lower pressure
under your foot, as you push down. That feels great! NB: Be sure your toes are relaxed."

[dnc]

It appears that steeper frames were an accident, the idea of moving forward gives more power is invalid if you pedal with the physics technique

https://www.docdroid.net/KVuf3BL/fitness-may-5.pdf.html


That does not answer my question. How many pedalling techniques have you perfected ?

[Dead Man]

I don't understand any of this crap.

[stephenmarklay]

Ok maybe I won’t read that article :D

When I started listening to Ed and his detailed fitting analysis, things really made sense to me. His stuff that is. Before that the fits I have had and my own fitting was utter guess work. Ed broke things down in a way that was simple for me to understand. That is the sign of someone who knows what they are talking about.

I kinda just pedal. My butt and I have a pretty good working relationship so that works for me. I also tend to pretend that I am taking giant steps when looking for power. That also works for me.

At the end of the day a bigger motor is likely what makes people faster. I used to ride with one of the best around here. His riding was ugly. He would pound those pedals and practically lift up off the seat. He could also do that all day long.

[Seramount]

I don't understand any of this crap.

nor do I...

I 'fall' in love, I 'fall' into bed, I 'fall' down stairs, but am totally uncertain whether I 'fall' into my pedals...

whatevs...after 50+ years of pedaling, my technique is probably going to remain whatever it is at the present.

[OtayBW]

It appears that steeper frames were an accident, the idea of moving forward gives more power is invalid if you pedal with the physics techniqueSteeper frames were the intention of builders on smaller frame sizes catering to shorter riders with relatively shorter femurs, says me.

[Samyoooo]

Ok maybe I won’t read that article :D

When I started listening to Ed and his detailed fitting analysis, things really made sense to me. His stuff that is. Before that the fits I have had and my own fitting was utter guess work. Ed broke things down in a way that was simple for me to understand. That is the sign of someone who knows what they are talking about.

I kinda just pedal. My butt and I have a pretty good working relationship so that works for me. I also tend to pretend that I am taking giant steps when looking for power. That also works for me.

At the end of the day a bigger motor is likely what makes people faster. I used to ride with on of the best around here. His riding was ugly. He would pound those pedals and practically lift up off the seat. He could also do that all day long.

you have to really read the other 16 write ups, explains it alot more

[jmeloy]

Here's a story about Ed (TiD)... Some on here know that I have a leg issue that I am dealing with. My riding has slipped due to it. In response to a post I did one day Ed reached out and said he had an idea for me involving a pedal change and some adapters. I said I was willing to give it a try. Next thing I know, a new set of Speedplay Light Action pedals and a set of cleat extenders arrive in the mail from Ed. Never met him, just forum pals. Shocked. I called him to thank him and and he said "try them and if they work we will figure it out". They have been a tremendous help in my riding.

He's a huge credit to the forum and a great person.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[93legendti]

Here's a story about Ed (TiD)... Some on here know that I have a leg issue that I am dealing with. My riding has slipped due to it. In response to a post I did one day Ed reached out and said he had an idea for me involving a pedal change and some adapters. I said I was willing to give it a try. Next thing I know, a new set of Speedplay Light Action pedals and a set of cleat extenders arrive in the mail from Ed. Never met him, just forum pals. Shocked. I called him to thank him and and he said "try them and if they work we will figure it out". They have been a tremendous help in my riding.

He's a huge credit to the forum and a great person.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Thank for posting.

Very nice of Ed. He has a wealth of knowledge, is passionate about his expertise and routinely offers his insight. Incorporating the techniques he espouses here have benefitted my riding.

So cool he was able to help you. Do you mind expanding a bit on the changes he suggested?

[Ti Designs]

you have to really read the other 16 write ups, explains it alot more

After spending the better part of 2 days reading and rereading, I've decided to take up golf.

[Ti Designs]

That does not answer my question. How many pedalling techniques have you perfected ?

How does an individual perfecting a pedaling technique benefit members of the forum? What's the value in this?

The truly gifted athletes are the ones who can program their muscles to fire in specific, complex sequences at will. The other >99% of us work against learned sequences (defense mechanisms) and have to use much longer learning sequences. Giving examples of gifted athletes as guidelines for average athletes without a learning process is pointless.

Let's say that .1% of the cycling population is gifted enough to learn how to pedal without any help. That means that 99.9% are going to need a teachable method. A technique that you can perfect is only of value to you, a technique you can teach is the real value.

[achurch]

Hi,
Long time fan of these posts (the productive ones, not the needless hating). I wish I lived close enough to come take your classes.

Ergott mentions heels down (and possibly lowering saddle height) as an alternate strategy to getting to falling. Two questions here:

What do you think of this suggestion?
From the riders who get it, do you have other descriptors of what the feeling is that they are focused on?

I imagine different people end up with different thoughts they hone in on that end up helping them achieve the combination of firing glutes and turning off the quads. A collection of the way different people describe it (or what they think about to help them get there) might be helpful.

The other question I have is about cadence range. Do you have range that you suggest as starting point for people trying to retrain the muscle groups? DO you have range (which might be the same or different) for people once they succeed in this initial phase?

Keep up the good work. The videos are great to see!

cheers,

Andy

[Ti Designs]

I imagine different people end up with different thoughts they hone in on that end up helping them achieve the combination of firing glutes and turning off the quads. A collection of the way different people describe it (or what they think about to help them get there) might be helpful.

Or confusing... Sadly, I have an Ed filter permanently mounted between my brain and my mouth, so what comes out has the parts that would confuse me filtered out. At one point I had Ian substitute teach one of my pedal stroke classes, I would have loved to sit in on that class, just to hear someone else explain it.


The other question I have is about cadence range. Do you have range that you suggest as starting point for people trying to retrain the muscle groups? DO you have range (which might be the same or different) for people once they succeed in this initial phase?

The initial stage of using the glutes is about using a skill set you have known as sitting - you use them all the time, you just don't give them much thought. As such, your cadence will be based on your body weight, gravity and the resistance at the pedals. It's kinda like asking a diver how fast they fall - it's really not up to them.

The range of resistance in using the glutes is easy to understand, it's from when you have enough resistance to get your body weight on the pedal to when the pedals grind to a halt. The quads are a bit harder 'cause things start to fail. On the low end it's enough resistance that you have something to push against, which is almost nothing. At some speed just the spokes moving in air generates enough resistance. On the high end you're asking a long muscle with very little mechanical advantage to produce a lot of force. Your body has all sorts of ways of keeping from injuring itself, so things start to change.

The real trick is to learn it in it's simplest form, then once it works without thinking about it, expand the range.

[MattTuck]

Or confusing... Sadly, I have an Ed filter permanently mounted between my brain and my mouth, so what comes out has the parts that would confuse me filtered out. At one point I had Ian substitute teach one of my pedal stroke classes, I would have loved to sit in on that class, just to hear someone else explain it.




The initial stage of using the glutes is about using a skill set you have known as sitting - you use them all the time, you just don't give them much thought. As such, your cadence will be based on your body weight, gravity and the resistance at the pedals. It's kinda like asking a diver how fast they fall - it's really not up to them.

The range of resistance in using the glutes is easy to understand, it's from when you have enough resistance to get your body weight on the pedal to when the pedals grind to a halt. The quads are a bit harder 'cause things start to fail. On the low end it's enough resistance that you have something to push against, which is almost nothing. At some speed just the spokes moving in air generates enough resistance. On the high end you're asking a long muscle with very little mechanical advantage to produce a lot of force. Your body has all sorts of ways of keeping from injuring itself, so things start to change.

The real trick is to learn it in it's simplest form, then once it works without thinking about it, expand the range.

Ed,
Out of curiosity, how do you feel about PT exercises that focus on glute recruitment and activation?

I should be more specific. Where do you see a routine focused on strengthening and recruiting/activating glutes in relation to working on glute recruitment with cycling? I know you have your class for teaching pedal stroke, but I wondered if you've ever tried using exercises off the bike to build those neural pathways and activate glutes, and whether this translates to the bike.

I've read in the past that simply visualizing something can help build neural pathways for that. So I wonder also, if glute activation is the goal, if visualization could be another part of the approach.

[jmeloy]

Thank for posting.



Very nice of Ed. He has a wealth of knowledge, is passionate about his expertise and routinely offers his insight. Incorporating the techniques he espouses here have benefitted my riding.



So cool he was able to help you. Do you mind expanding a bit on the changes he suggested?


After 4 years, 9 docs and many tests I've learned that a genetic muscle disorder has resulted in 100% loss of two muscles in each lower leg, one gastroc and the soleus. When Ed reached out I was considering giving up riding as I can no longer push with my toes at all and my riding ability was in a bit of a free fall. Ed said "let's jam some cleats as far back as we can and have you push with the big muscles". While I'll never ride like many my age again, it returned me to a reasonable level and returned my love of being on the bike.

I'd also add our friend Joachim as he reached out a few months ago out of the blue and offered to help me with a reasonable exercise program and some drills to work on building other muscles to compensate. It's slow progress but progress.

This place is full of amazing people.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Ti Designs]

I've read in the past that simply visualizing something can help build neural pathways for that. So I wonder also, if glute activation is the goal, if visualization could be another part of the approach.

There have been a number of fMRI studies on the subject of visualization and activation that say otherwise. I've followed this subject closely since I work with people with muscle activation issues and I was one of them just 30 years ago. At the time I used a TENS unit to help map muscles.

In teaching pedal stroke the issue isn't so much muscle activation as it is dominance of skill sets. I often show people how if they wall forward into the pedal (stopped at 3:00) the glutes do the work, if they look down and try to push down, the quads do the work.

[Mzilliox]

for what its worth, i have tried to apply your advice, in so much as i can understand it, and on today's ride i feel like a few things clicked. First, i adjusted my saddle a bit to try and facilitate the "falling". first impression was it was easier to activate my core, my arms were just so relaxed. this lead not necessarily to more power, but certainly to more efficiency and less fatigue. I had my best ride of the year today!

I will continue to work on it. I'm new to this cycling, maybe thats good, i haven't developed too many bad habits.

thanks for taking the time to do this stuff.:beer:

[93legendti]

After 4 years, 9 docs and many tests I've learned that a genetic muscle disorder has resulted in 100% loss of two muscles in each lower leg, one gastroc and the soleus. When Ed reached out I was considering giving up riding as I can no longer push with my toes at all and my riding ability was in a bit of a free fall. Ed said "let's jam some cleats as far back as we can and have you push with the big muscles". While I'll never ride like many my age again, it returned me to a reasonable level and returned my love of being on the bike.

I'd also add our friend Joachim as he reached out a few months ago out of the blue and offered to help me with a reasonable exercise program and some drills to work on building other muscles to compensate. It's slow progress but progress.

This place is full of amazing people.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

That's great. Glad to hear you can still enjoy riding. Thanks for posting what Ed suggested.

[velofinds]

As someone who rides fixed gear a lot of the time, especially in the winter (a full-fendered fixed ‎gear is my bad weather bike), I find the technique of 'falling' into my pedals not only instructive, but indeed vital in all but the friendliest of riding conditions. After all, if I want to climb a hill or ride into a fierce headwind, I have no choice but to mash in the one tall-ish gear that I have. And when I do, 'falling' into the pedals has proven to be not just an adequate coping mechanism but also a very effective technique in its own right. I find I'm able to climb hills - small NYC hills, mind you, but hills all the same - that I previously would have thought not possible for someone of my modest fitness and athletic ability to be able to climb fixed, and at a decent pace at that.

With that said, I don't find what TiD is saying to be anything particularly groundbreaking (which isn't to say I perceived that he was presenting his thoughts as such) or even controversial ‎-- and so I don't understand the negativity at all. (Some people just can't help themselves, can they?) After all, isn't 'falling' into the pedals just another way of saying "recruit your glutes"? This is a fairly well-known quantity, as far as I'm aware.

Anyway, I doff my cap to TiD for taking the time to share these concepts with those for whom perhaps they might not be, putting up with some unnecessary mean-spiritedness along the way.

[93legendti]

As someone who rides fixed gear a lot of the time, especially in the winter (a full-fendered fixed ‎gear is my bad weather bike), I find the technique of 'falling' into my pedals not only instructive, but indeed vital in all but the friendliest of riding conditions. After all, if I want to climb a hill or ride into a fierce headwind, I have no choice but to mash in the one tall-ish gear that I have. And when I do, 'falling' into the pedals has proven to be not just an adequate coping mechanism but also a very effective technique in its own right. I find I'm able to climb hills - small NYC hills, mind you, but hills all the same - that I previously would have thought not possible for someone of my modest fitness and athletic ability to be able to climb fixed, and at a decent pace at that.

With that said, I don't find what TiD is saying to be anything particularly groundbreaking (which isn't to say I perceived that he was presenting his thoughts as such) or even controversial ‎-- and so I don't understand the negativity at all. (Some people just can't help themselves, can they?) After all, isn't 'falling' into the pedals just another way of saying "recruit your glutes"? This is a fairly well-known quantity, as far as I'm aware.

Anyway, I doff my cap to TiD for taking the time to share these concepts with those for whom perhaps they might not be, putting up with some unnecessary mean-spiritedness along the way.

Agreed.
I've always thought that the way Lemond climbed was "falling onto his pedals"- very evident on the '90 TdF stage to Luz Ardiden. Same with Eddie M's style.

As you state, perhaps not groundbreaking, but an effective way of describing what you should be doing.

[Ti Designs]

perhaps not groundbreaking, but an effective way of describing what you should be doing.

And that's where the argument starts. There is an impression that your upper body shouldn't move. Jump to 2:40 in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPcR6MQ5dJo

Riding for many has become less about being effective on the bike and more about looking "pro". The videos all show guys with carbon bikes, carbon wheels, stems slammed, pro kits... A still upper body has become the common thinking, which means teaching pedal stroke is an uphill battle. Every time I teach a class I have to show footage of Eddy Merckx climbing to at least one person. One guy didn't know who Eddy was, he saw the video and said "that guy is all over his bike, he doesn't know how to climb". I almost kicked him out of my class...

[93legendti]

And that's where the argument starts. There is an impression that your upper body shouldn't move. Jump to 2:40 in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPcR6MQ5dJo

Riding for many has become less about being effective on the bike and more about looking "pro". The videos all show guys with carbon bikes, carbon wheels, stems slammed, pro kits... A still upper body has become the common thinking, which means teaching pedal stroke is an uphill battle. Every time I teach a class I have to show footage of Eddy Merckx climbing to at least one person. One guy didn't know who Eddy was, he saw the video and said "that guy is all over his bike, he doesn't know how to climb". I almost kicked him out of my class...

I agree. Not many still upper bodies among the guys fighting out this stage:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fAjj5137yKM

[Bob Ross]

There is an impression that your upper body shouldn't move. ...[snip]... "that guy is all over his bike, he doesn't know how to climb".


The whole Keep A Still Upper Body thing seems to come from an energy conservation approach, which imho is a pretty smart way to ride: Unless all that upper body motion is purely gravity-driven, it is wasted effort...and by definition, gravity-driven motion only goes in one direction, so you're still working half the time just to bring your torso back up to the neutral position.

It seems to me your saddle is the endpoint of that system of levers that propel a bike forward, so I'm not sure how any motion from above the waist is contributing to driving the pedals when the rider is seated. Could you explain?

[93legendti]

Eros Poli on Ventoux:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RxTnLaH3gVA

[numbskull]

I suspect bobbing does two things.

It moves your COG subtly forward at the start of the downstroke to put more weight into the pedal and it rolls the pelvis a bit forward to lengthen and maximize the contraction strength/duration of the glutes.

A third benefit is that it helps set a rhythm that is crucial when climbing under load.......probably to optimize the timing/repetition of various muscle group sequence firing, but also making it easier to synchronize leg effort to breathing and slow cadence towards its most energy efficient range.

That said, for a given power output I don't know which is the best way to get up a hill fast....spinning vs mashing. I suspect the differences are small when done right either way. Practically, however, I find it too easy to overshoot and either burn out my quads or exceed my aerobic capacity if I try to spin.

[stephenmarklay]

The whole Keep A Still Upper Body thing seems to come from an energy conservation approach, which imho is a pretty smart way to ride: Unless all that upper body motion is purely gravity-driven, it is wasted effort...and by definition, gravity-driven motion only goes in one direction, so you're still working half the time just to bring your torso back up to the neutral position.

It seems to me your saddle is the endpoint of that system of levers that propel a bike forward, so I'm not sure how any motion from above the waist is contributing to driving the pedals when the rider is seated. Could you explain?

I am not going to attempt to answer this question but yesterday I did a 8 mile trail run (ok about 4 miles and the rest was walking and wondering why I was running) and when I hit the hills I would pump my arms a lot harder and man it surely makes going up a lot easier.

[jamesau]

Merckx in The Stars and the Watercarriers (see 17:00 - 18:00) illustrates what we've been talking about.
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUIr9LG1juw)
His form in that sequence is clearly purposeful.


It seems to me your saddle is the endpoint of that system of levers that propel a bike forward, so I'm not sure how any motion from above the waist is contributing to driving the pedals when the rider is seated.

I'd say the saddle is a fulcrum; the torso acts as a lever which acts through the glutes on the femur to turn the crank.

This action certainly helps my seated climbing. The feeling/cues that help me achieve it are:
lowish cadence,
relaxed wrists/elbows/shoulders,
torso pivots from the hip (against the saddle) when driving the knee forward/down
relax/drop the elbow in synch with the power applied to the respective knee (see the video sequence above for the visual).

Thanks to Ed (TiD) for the enlightenment years ago.

[93legendti]

Think about starting from a stop light or on a hill after a stop when you are over geared-you use an exaggerated form of moving the upper body to help drive the pedals till you can get on top of the gear.

[achurch]

Two things that seem to be helping me:

From Ed's video, I started doing some climbing with my hands behind my back to see if it could help me isolate glutes more. It seems to...not sure why. (This is indoor on a trainer y the way. I see the pros do it outdoors while they fiddle in their back pockets, but I don't.)

Rather than focus on trying to find my glutes, I have been focusing on trying to relax my quads. This seems to be a bit of a game changer for me. I can't for the life of me figure out how to purposefully fire my glutes, but within 30 seconds of focusing on relaxing my quads I get a nice deep burn up the backside. They seem to be firing by default if I focus on shutting down the quads. I spent a 90 minute training session with a fair amount of moderate climbing focused on turning off quads and my glutes today are sore. Success! I think? Takes a ton of concentration for me, but, if I focus on relaxing the quads, I seem to be able to switch over.

Anybody else have mental (or physical) tricks that have been helpful for them? I really want to try and figure this out and seem to need all the help I can get. I wish Ed's class was closer.

Ed, If you ever want to take a trip to Montreal, I'll trade you a place to stay, some guided tours of the city, and good food for pedal stroke lessons!

[93legendti]

^
For me, one legged pedaling helped "find" where the glutes come in

[leftyfreak]

Two things that seem to be helping me:

From Ed's video, I started doing some climbing with my hands behind my back to see if it could help me isolate glutes more. It seems to...not sure why. (This is indoor on a trainer y the way. I see the pros do it outdoors while they fiddle in their back pockets, but I don't.)

Rather than focus on trying to find my glutes, I have been focusing on trying to relax my quads. This seems to be a bit of a game changer for me. I can't for the life of me figure out how to purposefully fire my glutes, but within 30 seconds of focusing on relaxing my quads I get a nice deep burn up the backside. They seem to be firing by default if I focus on shutting down the quads. I spent a 90 minute training session with a fair amount of moderate climbing focused on turning off quads and my glutes today are sore. Success! I think? Takes a ton of concentration for me, but, if I focus on relaxing the quads, I seem to be able to switch over.

Anybody else have mental (or physical) tricks that have been helpful for them? I really want to try and figure this out and seem to need all the help I can get. I wish Ed's class was closer.

Ed, If you ever want to take a trip to Montreal, I'll trade you a place to stay, some guided tours of the city, and good food for pedal stroke lessons!

Ed--road trip!! achurch, do you have space for two people? Ed would never manage to get to Montreal on his own, but I could be convinced to join him...

Training yourself to shut down the quads when the pedal is moving down is a key part of the process. Remember that the quads firing is your body's defense mechanism to *prevent* yourself from falling, so you're trying to unlearn an ingrained motor response that's great for walking, but not so helpful when pedaling.

The goal then, is to *allow* yourself to "fall" into the pedals, by taking your quads out of the equation, as you've discovered. Just be careful to not force too hard to try to "feel the burn" in the glutes at first. You're in the process of "patterning" or mapping out a muscle firing sequence that your body isn't used to, you're not trying to overload the glutes quite yet! Put another way, Ed always says that your heart rate should go down when you settle into this steady form of climbing with your glutes. With time, you can learn to climb moderate grades for a really long time without too much stress. The greater intensity that comes from really driving the glutes happens when you go up the steep stuff.

[dave thompson]

^^great explanation!!^^

[Mark McM]

The whole Keep A Still Upper Body thing seems to come from an energy conservation approach, which imho is a pretty smart way to ride: Unless all that upper body motion is purely gravity-driven, it is wasted effort...and by definition, gravity-driven motion only goes in one direction, so you're still working half the time just to bring your torso back up to the neutral position.

Umm ... No.

I think the misunderstanding is between 'no motion wasted' and 'upper body still'. Maybe its assumed that since the upper body doesn't push directly on the pedals, that it shouldn't move at all. If we have to move our upper bodies around to make our legs more efficience/effective, then it isn't wasted motion.

Take for example cross country ski racers. When they are double poling in a classic race, they are practically jumping into the air before they plant their poles. You might say all that up and down motion is just a waste - but it isn't. By jumping up before poling, they can derive much of the pole propulsion from gravity of their mass pushing down on the poles. If they didn't rise up before poling, all the force/energy of poling would have to come from their arms/upper bodies. But by using their legs to rise up first, they are shifting much of the work to their lower bodies, which have much larger and more efficient muscles than the arms.

It is true that we pedal with our legs. But the legs can only push down with the force of gravity. If we don't move our upper bodies, we can't align our body mass to most effectively synchronize our legs with the available gravity force.

[achurch]

[QUOTE=leftyfreak;1925301]Ed--road trip!! achurch, do you have space for two people? Ed would never manage to get to Montreal on his own, but I could be convinced to join him...

I bet we could figure something out!

Better yet, Let's get a whole Boston paceline gang to come on up. There are a number of montrealers on the board here.

Just don't come now. Minus 8 with 40km winds out there today. Since it was raining yesterday, we are now a giant mass of ice. Even Ed would be unhappy pedaling his fixed gear in this ����!

[MattTuck]

Umm ... No.

I think the misunderstanding is between 'no motion wasted' and 'upper body still'. Maybe its assumed that since the upper body doesn't push directly on the pedals, that it shouldn't move at all. If we have to move our upper bodies around to make our legs more efficience/effective, then it isn't wasted motion.

Take for example cross country ski racers. When they are double poling in a classic race, they are practically jumping into the air before they plant their poles. You might say all that up and down motion is just a waste - but it isn't. By jumping up before poling, they can derive much of the pole propulsion from gravity of their mass pushing down on the poles. If they didn't rise up before poling, all the force/energy of poling would have to come from their arms/upper bodies. But by using their legs to rise up first, they are shifting much of the work to their lower bodies, which have much larger and more efficient muscles than the arms.

It is true that we pedal with our legs. But the legs can only push down with the force of gravity. If we don't move our upper bodies, we can't align our body mass to most effectively synchronize our legs with the available gravity force.

When Cancellara is off the front, full gas, I often see him with some upper body movement. From the back, sometimes it looks like he is slithering. (https://youtu.be/W0toaJJwlbM?t=537) It isn't as obvious Lemond or Merckx, but there is movement there. PS. This is a spoiler of the 2013 Ronde, in case someone hasn't watched it yet.

A shot from behind, a little later in the race.
https://youtu.be/W0toaJJwlbM?t=658

[etu]

"Anybody else have mental (or physical) tricks that have been helpful for them? I really want to try and figure this out and seem to need all the help I can get. I wish Ed's class was closer."

Another way to experience the glutes working is walking up stairs hunched over to reduce the hip angle and simulate a more aggressive position on the bike. You'll look like an old osteoporotic granny and may even get some sympathetic comments from others, but you'll feel the burn in your glutes.

[stephenmarklay]

This “using the glutes” and listening to Ed’s sitting in a chair thoughts made me feel the need to get behind the pedals more. That is what Greg Lemond used to advocate.

In the gym I train folks to use the glutes in a variety of exercises. Squats, deadlifts, lunges to name a few. In doing so I often cue them to weight the heel not the toe (even though I am looking for a nice balance) and that works wonders.

On a bike pushing toe down with a knee forward of the ball of the foot that all gets pretty darn tricky.

On my MTB I ride flats and experiment with foot placement and further back, to a point, makes it much easier to recruit the glutes.

[Ti Designs]

There are some activities that help the person doing them by not allowing some things from going wrong - cycling isn't one of them. In cycling you can push in all the wrong directions, but the pedal never moves in any path other that the circle defined by the crank and bottom bracket. This means you can put lots of downward force at the bottom of the pedal stroke, which is what you've learned from walking, standing, running...

Traditional cross country skiing is a really interesting case because the dynamics of the ski's interaction with the snow limits where the person can apply force. The person can't apply force too far in front or too far behind them because the wax pocket needs their body weight to compress and get the wax to the snow. When the ski is outside of that range it's on glide wax, so the person has nothing to push against.

Along the idea of not letting the person push in the wrong direction, or with the wrong muscle group, I'm working on a design for telescoping cranks for testing and teaching purposes. Tangential force would still turn the crank, radial force (pushing down at the top or bottom, pushing forward at the front) would just extend the crank. This would force the rider to get their weight on the pedal centered at 3:00.

The hip flexor machine http://bodybuilding-wizard.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/machine-hip-flexor-1-3.jpg used for hip extension is another way of isolating the glutes by eliminating any resistance on the quads.

[Mark McM]

There are some activities that help the person doing them by not allowing some things from going wrong - cycling isn't one of them. In cycling you can push in all the wrong directions, but the pedal never moves in any path other that the circle defined by the crank and bottom bracket. This means you can put lots of downward force at the bottom of the pedal stroke, which is what you've learned from walking, standing, running...


I disagree with this. The fixed path of the pedal actually helps the cyclist prevent wasted motion, rather than the other way around. For a seated cyclist, there is only two predominant degrees of freedom of motion - and if the ankle didn't flex, there would be only one degree of freedom of motion. This severely limits the variation in how we can pedal, which also means that there are fewer ways to do it wrong. Yes, you can push in the wrong directions and at the wrong times, but the rider gets instantaneous feedback that there efforts are not resulting in forward motion, so it is (or should be) straight forward for a rider to adapt a more optimum motion.

Traditional cross country skiing is a really interesting case because the dynamics of the ski's interaction with the snow limits where the person can apply force. The person can't apply force too far in front or too far behind them because the wax pocket needs their body weight to compress and get the wax to the snow. When the ski is outside of that range it's on glide wax, so the person has nothing to push against.

It is interesting that you should bring up cross country skiing. As you say, there are lots of dynamics and degrees of freedom when doing classical striding technique. You have to push at the right times, with the right forces, and in the right directions, in order to convert your muscle energy into forward motion. It takes a lot of muscle coordination to optimize a classical stride. On the converse, skating is a much simpler technique, with fewer variables and degrees of freedom. It is largely a matter of rolling the ski onto edge and pushing. There is less muscle timing and coordination required, because we have set the edge, any pushing against the edge results in forward motion. This is why classical skiing is often considered a far more subtle and technical a discipline that skate skiing.

Along the idea of not letting the person push in the wrong direction, or with the wrong muscle group, I'm working on a design for telescoping cranks for testing and teaching purposes. Tangential force would still turn the crank, radial force (pushing down at the top or bottom, pushing forward at the front) would just extend the crank. This would force the rider to get their weight on the pedal centered at 3:00.\

If you built such cranks, than riding with them would be more analogous to classical skiing, because it would require far more muscle coordination to be able to develop an efficient pedal style. With our standard cranks, pedaling is more like skating, which requires far less muscle coordination for efficient motion.

[achurch]

I think the skating vs. classic is an interesting analogy. Any speed-skaters out there? This pushback against the nee for learning would seem to imply speekskating would simply be about developing fitness vs perfecting technique since that is also an edge that is essentially "locked in" -- at least once it is set. I'm guessing speedskaters would disagree, as do I.

I just don't see nay reason why our body would figure out we were working sub-optimally without clear feedback. Despite being locked in a circle I don't see a clear feedback loop that would give instantaneous information to correct a sub-optimal muscle firing sequence. I don't think it's reasonable to assume our bodies on their own are going to realize we are wasting a bit of energy. It seems to me all sports train for more efficient motion / muscle recruitment, why would we think cycling should be any different? To say that the complexity and gains to be made are more significant in some sports (classic vs., skate skiing) seems reasonable, but to say that one needs training and one does not seems a bit absurd.

Independent of the debate, for the believers, any other things that you think about that seem to help?

I've been trying ergott's heel's down and that one seems to help. Weight off the bars, heels down, quads off seems to be the combo thinking that makes my glutes burn. That combination seems to get me pretty good watts with a very controlled (not sure decreased but definitely controlled) heart rate.

[numbskull]

Independent of the debate, for the believers, any other things that you think about that seem to help?

.

I've had some success by thinking about pedaling with my knees rather than my feet. I concentrate on driving the back of my knee down and a little back. For me this seems to "shut off" the quads and produce the sensation of pedaling from the kidneys.......which I read some famous pro (Anquetil or Coppi????) had described as the sensation he felt when at his best........as opposed to the sensation of pedaling from the sit bones which I get when spinning.

I also play with seat position a lot and very definitely the higher and more forward I get the harder I find it to prioritize the glutes.

[djdj]

Before we emulate any particular pro rider's pedaling style, shouldn't we determine whether his pedaling style contributed to his success? E.g., suppose Merckx would have been faster with a different pedaling style? Is Contador faster because he dances on the pedals, or despite the fact that he does so?

[Ti Designs]

I disagree with this. The fixed path of the pedal actually helps the cyclist prevent wasted motion, rather than the other way around.

It is interesting that you should bring up cross country skiing. As you say, there are lots of dynamics and degrees of freedom when doing classical striding technique. You have to push at the right times, with the right forces, and in the right directions, in order to convert your muscle energy into forward motion.

Two sides of the same coin. it's not wasted motion I'm talking about, it's wasted force. You can't make the pedals go in any path other than the circle, but you can push the pedal in the wrong direction. In most cases (based on data from Pioneer power meter's vector data) pushing down at the bottom of the pedal stroke - something that seems very natural to anyone who stands on their feet.

Classical stride cross country skiing is the rare case where the activity restricts where force can be applied. It's far more frustrating learning how to cross country ski 'cause you have to learn how to compress the wax pocket and only apply force at that time. You can fail at doing that, just watch any beginner. In comparison, most people thing the pedal stroke is natural 'cause they get on a bike and it just works. Really it doesn't, but the activity doesn't let them fail.

[numbskull]

Before we emulate any particular pro rider's pedaling style, shouldn't we determine whether his pedaling style contributed to his success? E.g., suppose Merckx would have been faster with a different pedaling style? Is Contador faster because he dances on the pedals, or despite the fact that he does so?

Absolutely.

I didn't mean to imply any pro pedals or pedaled like I do. I just found it interesting and encouraging that I notice the same sensation of "pedaling from the kidneys" when I focus on using my glutes. Furthermore I'm sure pro's use several different pedaling styles depending on the situation (just as TiD discusses).

[djdj]

Absolutely.

I didn't mean to imply any pro pedals or pedaled like I do. I just found it interesting and encouraging that I notice the same sensation of "pedaling from the kidneys" when I focus on using my glutes. Furthermore I'm sure pro's use several different pedaling styles depending on the situation (just as TiD discusses).

I wasn't directing that at you. Just a general comment. :beer:

[93legendti]

"Anybody else have mental (or physical) tricks that have been helpful for them? I really want to try and figure this out and seem to need all the help I can get. I wish Ed's class was closer."

Another way to experience the glutes working is walking up stairs hunched over to reduce the hip angle and simulate a more aggressive position on the bike. You'll look like an old osteoporotic granny and may even get some sympathetic comments from others, but you'll feel the burn in your glutes.

Last night on the trainer I could feel my glutes engaged by over gearing while standing up and using glutes to drive the pedals. After a minute or so, I could feel it in my glutes

[Climb01742]

Another piece of the puzzle, at least for me, is handlebar drop. Less drop seems to aid in keeping my hips more fluid, especially over the top of the motion.

It's interesting to look at bike position over the years:

http://bikeretrogrouch.blogspot.com/2013/10/changing-positions.html

[numbskull]

I'm not sure bike position is necessarily all that different.
This is an excellent comparison between Coppi and Contador.
http://ruedatropical.com/2010/06/bike-fit-from-coppi-to-contador/

What you are describing is the limitation of hip angle/hip flexor ROM that can restrict the top of the pedal stroke (and which one foot drills help you sort out).

This only becomes a function of drop if you leave seat position unchanged. Within reason, if you move the bars down but also the seat up and forward you can keep this angle the same and get your back more level (or beyond) on the bike....i.e., a TT position. Effectively you are just rotating your position forward around the bottom bracket. The trade offs I run into (on my own bike...I know nothing about fitting others) are neck strain, more weight on arms or perineum (take your choice), and a greater "over the pedal" feeling which encourages pushing down with the quads and using the glutes less.

[leftyfreak]

I just don't see nay reason why our body would figure out we were working sub-optimally without clear feedback. Despite being locked in a circle I don't see a clear feedback loop that would give instantaneous information to correct a sub-optimal muscle firing sequence. I don't think it's reasonable to assume our bodies on their own are going to realize we are wasting a bit of energy. It seems to me all sports train for more efficient motion / muscle recruitment, why would we think cycling should be any different? To say that the complexity and gains to be made are more significant in some sports (classic vs., skate skiing) seems reasonable, but to say that one needs training and one does not seems a bit absurd.


achurch, this is precisely why working with Ed made so much sense to me 5 years ago when I got back on the saddle after some time away due to illness, injury, and parenthood! I spend much of my time teaching people to play the saxophone, which reminds me every day that we need to *learn* all of the physical skills we possess, and that we almost never do things the most efficient way "naturally". What feels "natural" to us is simply the case because it feels familiar, it is our habit. And habits are, by definition, things that we do all the time, but there is absolutely no guarantee that our habits are ideal, or optimal, or efficient. Right? We all have good and bad habits. Most of us have bad postural habits that result in aching shoulders, necks, backs, whatever. Many of us have bad habits in our relationships with people, or in eating.

The key to correcting our bad habits is having an *awareness* of what we are actually doing, combined with an understanding of what we are trying to do. From there, you can implement a learning process that allows you to develop a new skill, eventually replacing the old habits. And Ed's system gives riders the tools to create awareness, build understanding and develop new skills. It's totally fair that not everyone is interested in doing this, but it's been great for me!

I've had some success by thinking about pedaling with my knees rather than my feet. I concentrate on driving the back of my knee down and a little back.

In activating the glutes, this makes sense to me, since the knee is at the end of the lever (the femur) that the glutes are extending. On the other hand, the foot is at the end of the lever (the tib/fib) that the quads extend, and when working on using the quads, we try to kick or shuffle the foot over the top of the pedal stroke.

[RFC]

For the last 8 years, I have been riding a great deal of single speed -- more than half of my annual mileage.

I set up SS bikes so that on the flats at 90 rpm I'm at a rigorous, but sustainable level of effort. Accordingly, I am outside of my comfort zone when accelerating from a slower speed and on inclines.

After reading this thread and watching the videos, I realize that I have unconsciously been using this technique. Now that I am conscious of my "falling on my pedals," I am doing so more and intentionally, and am watching the results. For example, I am seeing a 1.5 mph increase in speed on moderate inclines.

My conclusion is that the technique is particularly applicable to SS riding.

Thanks!

[unterhausen]

The key to correcting our bad habits is having an *awareness* of what we are actually doing, combined with an understanding of what we are trying to do.
I would think this is self-evident, but maybe not. OTOH, this thread has been very useful to me because I thought I was using my muscles optimally, but now i realize I haven't been. I rode 130 miles on Saturday, and I had a lot less pain than I would expect given my general lack of conditioning.