Why is Moots overrated?

[Clancy]

It's flooding here in Texas so with time on my hands a short opinion piece.

Warning, this might be contentious, even bordering on sacrilegious.

I cannot understand why Moots is so overrated and overpriced compared to other Ti frames.

There I said it.

But why?

I recently sold an Eriksen frame, virtually perfect condition. It was listed for quite some time, I received very few inquiries, and when it did sell, it sold for apx 40% of new.

Had it been a Moots, the ad would have been gushing with posts such as " oh my God how beautiful", "if it was only my size"., etc.

Yet Kent Eriksen started Moots, left to get back to his original roots of a small, custom frame shop, and produces arguably the finest frame made today in the U.S., certainly on par and I believe better then Moots.

Not an isolated incident. I've seen dozens of sales of other high quality Ti frames Sell for far less then if they were labeled Moots.

Moots is a production shop, small company yes, but production. They build custom but so do so many others. There is nothing magical about what they do.

Yes they do an outstanding job and produce a splendid frame.

BUT! So do many other companies, Seven, Firefly ( they are badass!) IF.

Then there are dozens of one man ( and woman!) shops producing very high quality Ti frames using U.S. titanium. These frames are every bit as nice as any thing Moots produces.

This point was driven home for me when I attended The North American Handbuilt Bicycle Show. I was overwhelmed by the number of beautifully executed Ti bikes. ( and of course other materials) Moots dominated the floor with their huge display and yes, many beautiful and lust worthy bikes. But, I'll say it again, I believe they are overrated.

So.....

Why the love affair with Moots. Is it just simply blind lust driven by hype?

[mjb266]

A moots would have had more comments, but would sell for 40% of new as well.

[FlashUNC]

Depreciation is depreciation.

[tuscanyswe]

Not the only reason but buying someone else's custom bike is never the same as buying a stock bike. Because you don't really know what you are getting unless you are well read on the subject.

I think as the case with serotta for instance that the huge numbers of frames with tall head tubes and very sloping top tubes made the market soft even for the frames with more "normal" geo. If you see 10 serottas sell for 1000$ its harder to pay 2000$ for essentially the same modell just because it looks better than the ones sold for half.

I can't think of a ti frame that usually is built up as nicely and frequently as moots bikes. This ofc reflects into the number of ppl wanting to get one and thus the value increase or at least don't drop like a stone as with many other frames.

They are rarely painted, buyer almost always gets the exact same bike as he heard others were so pleased with and that he know will build in to the same looking bike as he seen posted so many times before.

Its a low risk frame set in terms of investment and looks.

Not saying erkiksen do not have most of these features too but it takes time and also perhaps a larger production than eriksen has to built the same "fanbase".

Personally i would likely pay as much for an Eriksen. Was your geometry far away from stock sizes?

I have had more than a few nice bikes and my moots road is by far my all time favorite all things considered.

[LJohnny]

These kind of threads seldom go anywhere good. I have never owned a Moots. I did owned a Litespeed. So many things are like that. For instance, why a BigMac and not a Wooper, many argue the Wooper is vastly superior... :-p


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CaliFly]

Not really sure why I'd need to defend any of my choices in brand whether it be bike or clothing or watch or cereal. You're certainly entitled to your opinion...but it's not the only one out there.

As far as your sale is concerned, there are plenty of Eriksen fans out there (me included). The market for any product depends not solely on popularity, but also on supply and demand. Perhaps your bike could have fetched more in two months...or five months back...the market is the market.

[old fat man]

You come across as bitter that you didn't get as much as you expected for your used bicycle (which is understandable).

1. No big love for Moots (or ti in general) from me, even after working for and riding dozens of bikes from one of the other highly regarded brands you mention.

2. A lot of classified ads here seem to have prices that are way outside of reality.

3. Maybe used Moots sell for more because they are usually stock and therefore more reassuring for a second owner.

4. I've sold a small handful of custom built bikes. The one used bike that I did the best selling was a stock mtb...

5. Selling your custom anything to a second owner never feels rewarding ATMA.

[Birddog]

What were the geos on your Eriksen? How custom was it?

[RFC]

Because they are made by elves in the alpine freshness of Steamboat Springs.

[Dead Man]

I don't like their decals

[akelman]

2. A lot of classified ads here seem to have prices that are way outside of reality.

3. Maybe used Moots sell for more because they are usually stock and therefore more reassuring for a second owner.

4. I've sold a small handful of custom built bikes. The one used bike that I did the best selling was a stock mtb...

5. Selling your custom anything to a second owner never feels rewarding ATMA.

This all seems right, especially the part about stock versus custom. Also, I've sold two or three Moots here, and I've never gotten more than 40% of retail (in fact, I don't think I've come close to that).

The truth is, the market for used, high-end bikes -- especially custom -- is incredibly soft and has been for a very long time. There are exceptions, and people focus on the outlier rather than the norm.

[weisan]

Clancy pal, I can understand where you are coming from. I thought about that too but then I corrected myself midway....those comments that you heard about or the people who responded positively when they saw a Moots showed up in the classified....even with the number of responses....it is but only a very small sample size of the overall population of Ti bikes/Ti bike makers/Ti bike owners.

It may give a perception that Moots are receiving more than their fair share of attention...much like Rapha....but the truth remains...the majority of folks out there have never heard of Moots or Rapha...

So, imo, it's just a perception...and there's no harm letting our pals swoon about their Moots or Rapha....it's perfectly healthy and a non-issue.

[nmrt]

I think the OP asks a valid question. Now, it may very well be that MOOTS too do sell at a 40% depreciation just as the OP's Eriksen -- research on this notwithstanding.

And I believe that while it may be entirely possible that MOOTS might not demand a premium over similar one-man shop builders, MOOTS definitely has more brand recognition amongst the general public. This is why there are more comments on general forums like mtbr or weightweenies on MOOTS. And more people wanting a MOOTS in the general public than a Firefly. But let me add, this forum is not frequented by the "general public" that I speak of.

[fuzzalow]

IMO you are speculating over a sale that actually happened with a sale that you have only imagined might have happened in your head. There are lots of things that make sales of pre-owned bikes a unique instance of one.

I read in your post a undertone of exasperation that you didn't make more money in this sale - which I view as a useless feeling to have. This sale was a business transaction, nothing more and nothing less. Emotion doesn't have a whole lot to do with this so don't waste your energy.

[ftf]

Moots has more brand recognition, that's it that's all. People like what is popular a lot of the time.

[jmal]

In addition to the points made above, I think the stability of the brand plays a large role too. I would rather have an Eriksen, but buying a Moots means that you are buying into a longstanding company with a reputation for quality and reliability. Some of it is regional as well. In the east I see many more Sevens and IFs. Further west more Moots. I would assume the used sales mirror this regional bias. Lastly, Moots always has beautiful ads of a sleek mtb riding through the aspens. I can't recall seeing any romance inducing ads from the others mentioned, but I admittedly don't read the rags much.

[Mikej]

In general, they are a high end production frame. They do hold their value because of that - 2nd and 3rd hand pricing holds up well when it appeals to more people, unlike a custom. Custom is custom, built for the original owner. I own Eriksens as well, but I do like moots!

[malcolm]

Moots has more brand recognition, that's it that's all. People like what is popular a lot of the time.

This. Moots has been around a long time and people know they have a history even if they don't know the history they do know moots is a pinnacle Ti frame and it is.

For me moots has reached the point serotta reached with me. Not referring to business. Serotta reached a point where I still liked them but for the money I much preferred the single man shop. Knowing who built my frame is important to me. I do think moots is as good as it gets in Ti but they do have peers and I'm more interested in their peers, but hey choice is great.

[11.4]

Recently sold a Moots myself, and own a variety of high end frames with a long history in titanium. So my own thoughts:

1. Moots is definitely conservative about their build geometries. And most people end up with stock geometry. That means it's much easier to relate to, predict, whatever. I think that always buys a little more resale value. As pointed out above, Serotta made all kinds of crazy geometries for people, and it doesn't take too many abortions out there to turn people off. Bike fit is often dependent on the retailers and Moots is very careful to steer retailers, and then customers, into more standard designs. If you want a weird frame, go somewhere else.

2. Moots does not do cosmetic flourishes, such as internal top tube brake cable routing or innovative finishes. I much prefer a cross bike with a top tube free of cables, because I like to do a running dismount and put my hand down on the top tube to do so. Easier done with an uncluttered top tube.

3. Moots has its own geometries. Moots like sloping top tubes. It's part of their MTB background, I think. There's nothing wrong with them -- the rider geometry can still be the same -- except in cross. If your top tube is too low, it's hard to do that running dismount again. But Moots wants to do things like they want to do things. They put a Di2 cable port on the down tube way down the tube and on the drive side, so the wire can dangle right from the junction box for about six inches (on my bike, which is a small frame) to the point of entry. Why not put it right next to the forward rear brake stop (or forward hydraulic housing saddle) so the Di2 cable can be shrink-tubed to the brake housing and be protected? I don't like their flat finish -- it marks easily, it picks up dirt and fingerprints, and you can't scrub it much without altering the finish. An old Serotta satin ti finish could be cleaned easily and then restored with the right grade of Scotch-brite auto pad. Much smarter.

4. Moots is very conservative with equipment. I asked about getting another frame from them. They didn't offer a number of frame specs that other builders already offer. They let you do disc caliper mounts their way, thank you. And so on.

5. On the plus side, their bikes ride amazingly well. Prices are not out of line. Delivery times aren't ridiculous.

6. Moots doesn't like to do upgrades on their bikes, such as switching quick release stay ends for through axle, or even adding a water bottle cage to a cross frame without bosses.

7. Right now, Moots has just changed hands again, and while the welding team is still in place, that kind of news also really chills interest in used bike for a little bit.

I could go on and on, on both sides of the why they should have high resale/why they should have low resale argument. But basically a new frame is readily available (not an 8 month wait). A used frame is pretty much guaranteed to ride well and have a geometry that handles well, as long as it fits you. My Moots looks just like yours, so it isn't like you have a Responsorium with a paint job someone won't like, or that 1980s orange Serotta paint job. From a business standpoint, I think Moots has protected their franchise much better than most, always maintained quality (I can't remember ever seeing a product quality issue on a Moots), and done what they need to charge premium dollar and on the side to protect resale value a bit more. They sell more new bikes because people know their resale values hold up -- go into a Range Rover dealership and resale is one of the first points the sales guys will tout to you, and it's the same with Moots.

So yeah, Moots is highly rated. Not that they make a better bike than Ericksen but they make a high end drive-it-away bike that they don't mess with. Me, I like some flourishes that Moots doesn't like to do, and I'm an early adopter in terms of things like through axles. But I knew my Moots would sell fast because it was a predictable bike and it's one that simply rides magnificently. I couldn't have said that about a Serotta Legend, even if the geometry was actually the same. Unlike any other builder, Moots charts a conservative path and has always stuck to it. But for a big segment of the market, new and resale, that's exactly what they want. Hell, I did.

[Chris]

I've had two Moots. Sold both here I believe. Neither seemed to hold their value anymore than any other frame I have owned and sold. Just my experience.

[weisan]

This post reminds me of a time, and this happened loooong time ago, maybe 18-20 years, when I walked into a local bike shop close to the UT campus which had since closed, called Freewheeling. They have a Merlin, just the frame, on display. I got up close and gently run my fingers across the welds and tubes...and I lost control...all of sudden....completely. :D

[54ny77]

if you had a 54 cm vamoots sl i'd have paid you an extra $1.

[Mikej]

Maybe the older vamoots and compacts that were purchased a decade ago new for like 2100$ and sell for 1500$ now are giving the impression they hold value better?

[rodcad]

I can think of a few reasons why they aren't overrated. Maybe because they stand behind their product? They will refinish as new? They will modernize an older frame with disc tabs or whatever? They have built a lot of frames and have things dialed in vesus relatively newer brands? Have you seen their welds?

Having said that, I would still love to own an Erickson.

[beeatnik]

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/589/21311936479_64b8d6a227_b.jpg

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/614/22584800446_73c8663864_b.jpg

[CunegoFan]

Moots has more brand recognition, that's it that's all. People like what is popular a lot of the time.

I think it is that Moots has brand recognition but not too much recognition. It occupies a sweet spot, like a band that is listened to by the cool kids before the general public jumps on the bandwagon.

[54ny77]

that's what happens when you leave your moots out in the wild. the owner is lucky the animals only ate 1/2 of the handlebars. the head tube was next in line.

http://31.media.tumblr.com/8873748d59f1b6e9ddd5a3fce67c12b4/tumblr_nt0tdjsWg61tpri36o1_400.gif


https://farm1.staticflickr.com/589/21311936479_64b8d6a227_b.jpg

[tuscanyswe]

Maybe the older vamoots and compacts that were purchased a decade ago new for like 2100$ and sell for 1500$ now are giving the impression they hold value better?

Id never sell my compact for 1500, never! :) Its only 5 years old tho and going in for refinishing this winter. Or that is the plan at least.

My moots cross 2 or 3 years old i did sell for well below 40% of retail tho, thats retail here so perhaps it was more or about 40% of retail in the US.

[Mikej]

Those 6/4's were SWEET!

[beeatnik]

that's what happens when you leave your moots out in the wild. the owner is lucky the animals only ate 1/2 of the handlebars. the head tube was next in line.

http://31.media.tumblr.com/8873748d59f1b6e9ddd5a3fce67c12b4/tumblr_nt0tdjsWg61tpri36o1_400.gif

Seller's description:

This is one of the best road bikes ever made in America, IMHO. The size 61 compact frame (top tube 23" CTC, seat tube 23" CTT) is flawlessly welded by Moots in ultra rare 6-4 titanium. The Compact SL was a limited edition run for only a year, reportedly curtailed because of the cost and expense of working with 6-4 ti. I built it up with Campy Carbon Record Ultra 10, a Stronglight Pulsion Carbon crankset, Mavic Ksyrium ES Helium wheel set, Reynolds Ouzo Pro Carbon fork, a Ergo Carbon bar (I cut the drops off because I never used them), Thompson stem, Zero Gravity Ti brakes, U.S.E. Alien Carbon seat post, and a comfy and light Gobi Wing Flex Ti saddle. It weighs in at 16.3 lbs without pedals. Everything works and is very good condition overall. I'm selling it, even though I love it, because I just don't ride the road anymore. Better that someone else get the chance to enjoy it. A few minor scratches here and there, but it's ti, can be buffed out and it will last forever.

[chiasticon]

Moots has more brand recognition, that's it that's all. People like what is popular a lot of the time.
I wouldn't say that people are after what's popular, necessarily, but just that they *know* who moots is because it's a popular Ti bike company. they may not know, on the other hand, who kent eriksen is or the history of moots. as evidence of this popularity idea: I own a moots psychloX and an indy fab planet cross Ti. both are fabulous bikes, btw. I've raced them both this season an equal number of times and raced the IF all last season (didn't have the moots yet). I think I've had two people say "nice bike" about the IF. but I've had people literally ride past me while I'm at my car at a race, turn around and ride back to start talking about the moots. hell, a guy walking past my house one day saw me putting it on the roof of my car and stopped to say "is that a moots? wow!" all this attention makes me scared to leave it in the pit, actually :eek:

anyway, yeah more people know who moots is. that's about all there is to it.

[AngryScientist]

i've ridden a lot of "good" bicycles, and my moots is one of the best i own.

people pay more of a premium for a known commodity.

seems like sour grapes for the OP. his bike didnt sell for as much as he would have liked, so he attacks the moots brand. poor form.

[Clancy]

IMO you are speculating over a sale that actually happened with a sale that you have only imagined might have happened in your head. There are lots of things that make sales of pre-owned bikes a unique instance of one.

I read in your post a undertone of exasperation that you didn't make more money in this sale - which I view as a useless feeling to have. This sale was a business transaction, nothing more and nothing less. Emotion doesn't have a whole lot to do with this so don't waste your energy.

This comment reflects a few others, that I was disappointed or even bitter with the sales of my Eriksen. That was not the case at all and I apologize if my OP came across as such.

I sold my Eriksen at what I thought was a fair price and hopefully the buyer is pleased and is enjoying a wonderful bike.

I used my sale only as an illustration- that often Ti frames made by builders as good as Moots do not have the bling factor of a Moots. I was using the Eriksen to make the point that frames made by the founder of Moots don't get the attention that Moots get. An ironic point I felt.

Custom frames do not sell well, that's a given. A unique anything seldom dies unless it falls into the category of collecting, art, autos, etc.

My point remains....

Comparing apples to apples, eg stock Ti frame vs stock Ti frame, a Moots will garner more responses and a better price then equal quality frames.

And, I do not mean to be dismissive of anyone who owners a Moots. As I said in my original opinion piece, they produce a lovely, beautiful, well made frame.

I just believe they are able to command a somewhat higher price then other equal frames.

My question was why? Public lust driven by hype and perception?

[Waldo]

Same questions could be asked about Pegoretti, though at least many Pegs have unique paint jobs. Moots do not.

[AngryScientist]

Comparing apples to apples, eg stock Ti frame vs stock Ti frame, a Moots will garner more responses and a better price then equal quality frames.



what are the other apples? what other stock ti frames are you comparing to Moots for this discussion.

[MattTuck]

people pay more of a premium for a known commodity.


Nick, that doesn't make any sense. a commodity would not get a premium. A differentiated product would :)

As for the OP, I'll agree that there is a bit of a cult of Moots. I don't think it is a bad thing that they've created a brand that people perceive as being better/more valuable. It is a testament to a good product, built in enough volume and distributed in enough channels, that it is so well thought of.

[thegunner]

Nick, that doesn't make any sense. a commodity would not get a premium. A differentiated product would :)

As for the OP, I'll agree that there is a bit of a cult of Moots. I don't think it is a bad thing that they've created a brand that people perceive as being better/more valuable. It is a testament to a good product, built in enough volume and distributed in enough channels, that it is so well thought of.

it's like rapha, which now commands a price premium over assos (which both produce top notch stuff).

[oldpotatoe]

It's flooding here in Texas so with time on my hands a short opinion piece.

Warning, this might be contentious, even bordering on sacrilegious.

I cannot understand why Moots is so overrated and overpriced compared to other Ti frames.

There I said it.

But why?

I recently sold an Eriksen frame, virtually perfect condition. It was listed for quite some time, I received very few inquiries, and when it did sell, it sold for apx 40% of new.

Had it been a Moots, the ad would have been gushing with posts such as " oh my God how beautiful", "if it was only my size"., etc.

Yet Kent Eriksen started Moots, left to get back to his original roots of a small, custom frame shop, and produces arguably the finest frame made today in the U.S., certainly on par and I believe better then Moots.

Not an isolated incident. I've seen dozens of sales of other high quality Ti frames Sell for far less then if they were labeled Moots.

Moots is a production shop, small company yes, but production. They build custom but so do so many others. There is nothing magical about what they do.

Yes they do an outstanding job and produce a splendid frame.

BUT! So do many other companies, Seven, Firefly ( they are badass!) IF.

Then there are dozens of one man ( and woman!) shops producing very high quality Ti frames using U.S. titanium. These frames are every bit as nice as any thing Moots produces.

This point was driven home for me when I attended The North American Handbuilt Bicycle Show. I was overwhelmed by the number of beautifully executed Ti bikes. ( and of course other materials) Moots dominated the floor with their huge display and yes, many beautiful and lust worthy bikes. But, I'll say it again, I believe they are overrated.

So.....

Why the love affair with Moots. Is it just simply blind lust driven by hype?

First, a similar age/model Moots would sell for about the same as your Eriksen. Sold for, not asked for price, used.

You are upset because you think your Eriksen is 'worth more', and because of this Moots is 'over rated and over priced'.

I think Moots is highly regarded and rightly so, so 'rated' highly and priced when new about the same as similar US made titanium frames. About the same as similar Sevens, Fireflys, Mosaics and IFs. You have to look at MSRP, preowned, there is no standard, no scale.

Kent didn't leave to 'go back to his roots', that's where he ended up but was at Moots for 3 years, post sale, as an advisor.

Put 10 bike people in a room, ask about Eriksen and Moots, I'll bet most have heard of Moots, bet some had never heard of Eriksen.

Sounds like you should have bought a Moots in the first place if you wanted ROI.

[redir]

FWIW I do like my Moots Compact quite a bit but the reality of the situation is that I would do no better or no worse on a Bikes Direct Motobacane at the end of the race.

Welcome to the wonderful world of marketing and branding. Moots has created a fine brand and with that comes the recognition and pedigree.

[54ny77]

bingo. that's it in a nutshell.

FWIW I do like my Moots Compact quite a bit but the reality of the situation is that I would do no better or no worse on a Bikes Direct Motobacane at the end of the race.

Welcome to the wonderful world of marketing and branding. Moots has created a fine brand and with that comes the recognition and pedigree.

[chiasticon]

for what it's worth, I'd say more than likely the reason why you didn't get much ROI from your Eriksen is that the geo was not very close to standard. a 168mm head tube on a frame with a 545mm effective top tube is really tall. like 3+ cm's above normal tall. that would turn a lot of would-be buyers off from it. if you got the last price shown in the thread ($1500), then I'd say that's about right. I paid a bit more for my Ti IF, but it was a very standard geometry. a paid a tiny bit more than my IF for my standard geo moots. so...your assessment that "if it were a moots, I would've gotten more money" is pretty off base. "if the geometry were standard I would've gotten more money" is more like it. IMHO.

[oldpotatoe]

This comment reflects a few others, that I was disappointed or even bitter with the sales of my Eriksen. That was not the case at all and I apologize if my OP came across as such.

I sold my Eriksen at what I thought was a fair price and hopefully the buyer is pleased and is enjoying a wonderful bike.

I used my sale only as an illustration- that often Ti frames made by builders as good as Moots do not have the bling factor of a Moots. I was using the Eriksen to make the point that frames made by the founder of Moots don't get the attention that Moots get. An ironic point I felt.

Custom frames do not sell well, that's a given. A unique anything seldom dies unless it falls into the category of collecting, art, autos, etc.

My point remains....

Comparing apples to apples, eg stock Ti frame vs stock Ti frame, a Moots will garner more responses and a better price then equal quality frames.

And, I do not mean to be dismissive of anyone who owners a Moots. As I said in my original opinion piece, they produce a lovely, beautiful, well made frame.

I just believe they are able to command a somewhat higher price then other equal frames.

My question was why? Public lust driven by hype and perception?

Used? Because most others, MSRP, are very similar, apples to apples, US made ti bike frames. Used, no standard, no meaningful measure.

Again, those same 10 people..ask about Moots, Eriksen, Firefly, Lynskey, IF...

"Hype", used that a couple of times. Don't think it's 'hype' to build a great product, advert that, sell a bunch of them. 'Hype' implies something for nothing, not worthy of praise or positive comments.

Ceramic on bikes is hype, like in a headset. Moots as a brand is not 'hyped', IMHO.

[Cornfed]

"if the geometry were standard I would've gotten more money" is more like it. IMHO.

This. People think "custom" means "special"; to me it just means more work (and probably more parts) to get set up the way I like it.

[avalonracing]

I recently sold an Eriksen frame, virtually perfect condition. It was listed for quite some time, I received very few inquiries, and when it did sell, it sold for apx 40% of new.


Was your Eriksen made with kooky custom geometry? Or was it something like one of the many propriety single speed MTBs that I keep seeing for sale? Personally, I'd rather buy an Eriksen just to be different. Just don't tell me that it was mint condition 57CM square with a 74ｺ STA because I would have given you much more than 40% of your new price.

[christian]

I sold my Eriksen at what I thought was a fair price and hopefully the buyer is pleased and is enjoying a wonderful bike.


I think Eriksens and Mootses both retain a premium in the used market; in the case of your Eriksen, I think it was a bit underpriced. I think you were asking $1500 for f/f/hs. Had it fit me, I would have happily paid $2000. An Eriksen f/f/hs for $1500 strikes me as a screaming deal and under market. It may be that I am unaware of new moves in the market, but I think it was likely a factor that bikes are sized objects and the right buyer didn't come along to pay a premium.

[54ny77]

this.

a 54.5 is right around my size and a 168 head tube + headset stack plus stem clamp would be ridiculous for me. i'd look like superman flying towards mars.

no wonder it sold cheap. the buyer universe for that is probably tiny, as in real tiny, as in the number of people who know that fit would be good for them let alone know of eriksen has got to be miniscule.

i could get a moots in a 54 with my eyes closed or bought sight unseen here on forum and know it'll work just fine. there's a premium for that too, damn it all. wish there wasn't!

for what it's worth, I'd say more than likely the reason why you didn't get much ROI from your Eriksen is that the geo was not very close to standard. a 168mm head tube on a frame with a 545mm effective top tube is really tall. like 3+ cm's above normal tall. that would turn a lot of would-be buyers off from it. if you got the last price shown in the thread ($1500), then I'd say that's about right. I paid a bit more for my Ti IF, but it was a very standard geometry. a paid a tiny bit more than my IF for my standard geo moots. so...your assessment that "if it were a moots, I would've gotten more money" is pretty off base. "if the geometry were standard I would've gotten more money" is more like it. IMHO.

[thegunner]

"Hype", used that a couple of times. Don't think it's 'hype' to build a great product, advert that, sell a bunch of them. 'Hype' implies something for nothing, not worthy of praise or positive comments.

I think the term hype is being misused (and in truth, most people probably mean marketing). moots deserves all the praise they get, but the market is simply larger because they do a better job of marketing.

[rugbysecondrow]

i've ridden a lot of "good" bicycles, and my moots is one of the best i own.

people pay more of a premium for a known commodity.

seems like sour grapes for the OP. his bike didnt sell for as much as he would have liked, so he attacks the moots brand. poor form.

I don't think he attacked the Moots brand, the question is legit, why is it overrated, or rated higher than other TI brands. I think the answers have validated the "why".

[velomonkey]

a 168mm head tube on a frame with a 545mm effective top tube is really tall. like 3+ cm's above normal tall. that would turn a lot of would-be buyers off from it. . . . . . "if the geometry were standard I would've gotten more money" is more like it. IMHO.


Agreed, gonna be real interesting to see how the Baum w/ 550mm TT and a 190mm HT is gonna sell (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=176658).

[Clancy]

Wow guys, I don't know how to say it any differently. I am not upset, bitter, angry or whatever other word that's been used, over the sales price of my Eriksen.

I received a very fair price for my bike. And hopefully, and as important, I hope the buyer felt like he received a fair deal as well.

In retrospect, I wish I had not mentioned the sale at all!

The point I was trying to make was very basic. A Moots frame receives much more attention, and often a higher resale price then other comparable frames.

Others who I believe got the point of my opinion piece used the example of Rapha vs Assos.

11.4 has made the best counter point to mine and stated it very well.

Would I own a Moots? Absolutely! But in truth I lust after a Firefly more. Would I buy one new over others? No, and the reason for me is I feel, for me, other options are better. I recently put down a deposit to have a custom Ti made by a up and coming builder in Austin. Personally I much prefer to support the same one person shop vs a company like Moots.

It's storming down here in Texas, a rainy day. I hoped to start a lively debate. Looks like I succeeded!

[tuscanyswe]

Wow guys, I don't know how to say it any differently. I am not upset, bitter, angry or whatever other word that's been used, over the sales price of my Eriksen.

I received a very fair price for my bike. And hopefully, and as important, I hope the buyer felt like he received a fair deal as well.

In retrospect, I wish I had not mentioned the sale at all!

The point I was trying to make was very basic. A Moots frame receives much more attention, and often a higher resale price then other comparable frames.

Others who I believe got the point of my opinion piece used the example of Rapha vs Assos.

11.4 has made the best counter point to mine and stated it very well.

Would I own a Moots? Absolutely! But in truth I lust after a Firefly more. Would I buy one new over others? No, and the reason for me is I feel, for me, other options are better. I recently put down a deposit to have a custom Ti made by a up and coming builder in Austin. Personally I much prefer to support the same one person shop vs a company like Moots.

It's storming down here in Texas, a rainy day. I hoped to start a lively debate. Looks like I succeeded!

I didn't read your post like you were having a go at Moots just so you know. Most will not perceive the post that way i think.

Who's the builder in Austin?

[oldpotatoe]

Wow guys, I don't know how to say it any differently. I am not upset, bitter, angry or whatever other word that's been used, over the sales price of my Eriksen.

I received a very fair price for my bike. And hopefully, and as important, I hope the buyer felt like he received a fair deal as well.

In retrospect, I wish I had not mentioned the sale at all!

The point I was trying to make was very basic. A Moots frame receives much more attention, and often a higher resale price then other comparable frames.

Others who I believe got the point of my opinion piece used the example of Rapha vs Assos.

11.4 has made the best counter point to mine and stated it very well.

Would I own a Moots? Absolutely! But in truth I lust after a Firefly more. Would I buy one new over others? No, and the reason for me is I feel, for me, other options are better. I recently put down a deposit to have a custom Ti made by a up and coming builder in Austin. Personally I much prefer to support the same one person shop vs a company like Moots.

It's storming down here in Texas, a rainy day. I hoped to start a lively debate. Looks like I succeeded!

Why did you sell the Eriksen?

Saila in Austin?

[eBAUMANN]

Personally, I am really glad that the "big name brands" like moots exist...why? because while all the poseurs are fawning over those big names, the rest of us who can actually recognize quality beyond a sticker end up getting great deals on all the other lesser known builders frames...like your eriksen for example.

if you are looking to not lose money on a frame...dont buy them new.
simple as that.

[I Want Sachs?]

Moots, Colnago, Pegoretti, and Sachs are bikes that comes to mind in not deviating from riding characteristics that the builders define as their signature ride. This tends to hold value better than super custom bikes that is an unknown to new buyer.

[soulspinner]

This. Moots has been around a long time and people know they have a history even if they don't know the history they do know moots is a pinnacle Ti frame and it is.

For me moots has reached the point serotta reached with me. Not referring to business. Serotta reached a point where I still liked them but for the money I much preferred the single man shop. Knowing who built my frame is important to me. I do think moots is as good as it gets in Ti but they do have peers and I'm more interested in their peers, but hey choice is great.

yes.

[benb]

This thread makes me want a Vamoots. That is all, hope that doesn't piss anyone off but that stock geo that makes them desirable seems like it'd work just fine for me. They always look good.

Even used they're a stretch though until my kid gets out of day care. :( Probably very little chance of a frameset coming up at a decent price I could grab.

[Joachim]

Personally, I am really glad that the "big name brands" like moots exist...why? because while all the poseurs are fawning over those big names, the rest of us who can actually recognize quality beyond a sticker end up getting great deals on all the other lesser known builders frames...like your eriksen for example.

if you are looking to not lose money on a frame...dont buy them new.
simple as that.

Yes, buy the Nagasawa!

[54ny77]

It's the thread title that throws people off. Or at least it does me.

Might have been better stated as "Why Does a Used Moots Cost So Damned Much?"

;)

Wow guys, I don't know how to say it any differently. I am not upset, bitter, angry or whatever other word that's been used, over the sales price of my Eriksen.

I received a very fair price for my bike. And hopefully, and as important, I hope the buyer felt like he received a fair deal as well.

In retrospect, I wish I had not mentioned the sale at all!

The point I was trying to make was very basic. A Moots frame receives much more attention, and often a higher resale price then other comparable frames.

Others who I believe got the point of my opinion piece used the example of Rapha vs Assos.

11.4 has made the best counter point to mine and stated it very well.

Would I own a Moots? Absolutely! But in truth I lust after a Firefly more. Would I buy one new over others? No, and the reason for me is I feel, for me, other options are better. I recently put down a deposit to have a custom Ti made by a up and coming builder in Austin. Personally I much prefer to support the same one person shop vs a company like Moots.

It's storming down here in Texas, a rainy day. I hoped to start a lively debate. Looks like I succeeded!

[joosttx]

I test rode a rout. its a very nice looking and riding bike. But I felt my old IF and new Mosaic rode better and were lighter. The Mosaic is of better quality than the Moots. I think Moots are priced correctly retail wise and I would recommend them.

[Plum Hill]

this.

a 54.5 is right around my size and a 168 head tube + headset stack plus stem clamp would be ridiculous for me. i'd look like superman flying towards mars.

no wonder it sold cheap. the buyer universe for that is probably tiny, as in real tiny, as in the number of people who know that fit would be good for them let alone know of eriksen has got to be miniscule.

i could get a moots in a 54 with my eyes closed or bought sight unseen here on forum and know it'll work just fine. there's a premium for that too, damn it all. wish there wasn't!

Ridiculous for you but that geometry is almost spot on for a Serotta HSG with 55 Performance geometry.
I have the same in a 57 and love the fit. Someone just a bit shorter with my proportions would fit the OP's frame.
Judging by the number of bikes out there with steerer extenders and tons of spacers, a lot of riders should have a frame like this.

[DRZRM]

I have owned a Moots MTB (26er) and currently own an IF ti Planet-X and a Firefly road frame. I think you are right, Moots frames hold their value marginally better than other bikes, and they seem to sell significantly faster than other brands.

Additionally, their stems and posts retain a remarkable percentage of their value. I've seen used Moots posts go for nearly the same price as a new Eriksen. I don't quite get it, but I'm certainly an enabler, I have Moots posts and stems on most of my bikes.

I do agree that consistency is likely a big piece of it. You buy a used frame that is only offered custom (Firefly, Eriksen, IF, Seven) you need a lot of questions answered (size, angles, weight of original owner, stiffness built into the frame). You see a stock Moots, you pretty well know what is on offer, and if it suits your needs. May help explain why they go more quickly.

[rodcad]

[QUOTE=joosttx;1851484] The Mosaic is of better quality than the Moots. /QUOTE]

Mosaic quality must be off the charts then. Bike frames aren't rocket science and after a certain high quality level I don't know that there is "better". Pretty subjective me thinks.

[oldpotatoe]

I test rode a Routt. its a very nice looking and riding bike. But I felt my old IF and new Mosaic rode better and were lighter. The Mosaic is of better quality than the Moots. I think Moots are priced correctly retail wise and I would recommend them.

Not trying to argue but at the upper echelon of US made ti frames, I think this is quite a statement. What is of better quality? Again not trying to argue, I know the Mosaic and Moots guys well. Yes, I really like Moots, sold them for over 13 years, have a Vamoots.

[tuscanyswe]

Not trying to argue but at the upper echelon of US made ti frames, I think this is quite a statement. What is of better quality? Again not trying to argue, I know the Mosaic and Moots guys well. Yes, I really like Moots, sold them for over 13 years, have a Vamoots.

Nevermind :)

[malcolm]

I test rode a rout. its a very nice looking and riding bike. But I felt my old IF and new Mosaic rode better and were lighter. The Mosaic is of better quality than the Moots. I think Moots are priced correctly retail wise and I would recommend them.

Not trying to start a war but exactly how is a mosaic better. Ti tubes are Ti tubes. I've never seen a moots weld that at least wasn't cosmetically perfect.

How exactly is the Mosaic better?
Once you reach a certain level of competency and are producing the quality of welds that moots does unless you can point to specific failures there are only peers and aesthetic preferences.

[tuscanyswe]

Ridiculous for you but that geometry is almost spot on for a Serotta HSG with 55 Performance geometry.
I have the same in a 57 and love the fit. Someone just a bit shorter with my proportions would fit the OP's frame.
Judging by the number of bikes out there with steerer extenders and tons of spacers, a lot of riders should have a frame like this.

Yes but look at the resale value of serotta performance geo vs a bit more regular geo. The diff in used value is pretty amazing actually.

[Jeff N.]

Moots welds are absolutely the best in the business. There. I said it. -Jeff N.

[jlwdm]

The lower price for a resale custom frame is not always true. For someone like me that rides a large (62 cm range) frame and has longer legs for my height it is very hard to find used frames that fit. If I found one that fit and I really liked the brand, paint and so forth I would pay a premium. There is very little supply though.

I do not think Moots is as well known as some posts indicate. It is more known by people on bike forums. I like bikes and other things that are somewhat rare - not too popular. I like my Spectrum ti because it is a great bike and it is painted. I don't want a bare ti frame looking like a zillion other ti frames.

Jeff

[Clancy]

Moots welds are absolutely the best in the business. There. I said it. -Jeff N.

Eriksen won best welds at NAHBS

There. I said it.

But! To be fair, Moots welds are impeccable, but so are others. To say anything is the best in the business is subjective, as were the prizes handed out at NAHBS.

To say as good as any in the industry, yes. To say the best?

Answer to one post, I intentionally picked the title to this tread to get members attention and start a lively debate. But, I'll stand by it, I believe Moots are overrated.

And to answer the other post, I sold the Eriksen because it was just a little off in the fit. A supremely smooth ride, everything I could ever hope for in riding a bicycle. Ti rides differently then steel, but having owned a few Ti bikes, the Eriksen rode better then any other Ti bike I've owned or ridden. Beautifully made, spectacular welds, and just a wonderful ride. Had it fit, I would have never sold it.

As to the builder in Austin? I'm keeping that under wraps for awhile. I'm planning on documenting the entire process from first inquiry to finish build. Hopefully informative and entertaining and probably not near as controversial.

Still raining, more storms to come.

[joosttx]

i don't think Moots uses butted tubes or head tube. Correct me if I am wrong. The finish of the Mosaic is better. Firefly finish is as well. I agree with what you are saying they have mad welds.

Not trying to start a war but exactly how is a mosaic better. Ti tubes are Ti tubes. I've never seen a moots weld that at least wasn't cosmetically perfect.

How exactly is the Mosaic better?
Once you reach a certain level of competency and are producing the quality of welds that moots does unless you can point to specific failures there are only peers and aesthetic preferences.

[benb]

Ridiculous for you but that geometry is almost spot on for a Serotta HSG with 55 Performance geometry.
I have the same in a 57 and love the fit. Someone just a bit shorter with my proportions would fit the OP's frame.
Judging by the number of bikes out there with steerer extenders and tons of spacers, a lot of riders should have a frame like this.

This. I bet lots of custom frames get built like this and the owners just don't throw them up on sale. It's so hard to find this kind of thing stock that most of these people are probably ecstatic and ride the bike forever. If you don't need this kind of thing it's almost like custom is for bragging rights.

The classifieds here are way skewed because it's custom owners that trade out bikes like fashion items.

[Dead Man]

I don't like their decals

I also don't like compact/sloping top tubes on steel or Ti

[joosttx]

Not trying to argue but at the upper echelon of US made ti frames, I think this is quite a statement. What is of better quality? Again not trying to argue, I know the Mosaic and Moots guys well. Yes, I really like Moots, sold them for over 13 years, have a Vamoots.

Finish, Tubes (i don't think moots are butted), Features like the wishbone tail (rout) which is cheaper to make. Nothing wrong with them but I preferred my old IF over it and it had pretty much the exact same geometry. mosaic rides better too. I probably was a heavy handed how I said it. its nuances

[shovelhd]

I don't like their decals

The decals are definitely overrated. Without question. No doubt.

[weisan]

As to the builder in Austin? I'm keeping that under wraps for awhile.

I didn't receive your order yet, did you hit "Submit"?

Since there are so many eyes on this thread, don't mind a bit of self-promotion, the welds on a Moots are indeed impeccable, but I have come up with a highly innovative way to join the tubes which makes my bike extremely customizable, even my customers can adjust it themselves after they bring their custom bike home...

http://alicehui.com/bike/cx/rsz_uindkcpgfkvhm5rd.jpg

[sokyroadie]

I think my Carver Ti rides as well as any Ti bike I have had - Serotta, Litespeed, Lynskey and others. It is a third the price of a Moots, the welds also look great.

There you go - Moots is overrated by a factor of 3. ;)

In all seriousness, buy what you want and if you sell it don't expect to get rich on the resale value.

Jeff

[54ny77]

if you add jb weld, you'll realize a 19% increase in laterall stiffness without sacrificing the ability to add a sprinkler head on the down tube.

I didn't receive your order yet, did you hit "Submit"?

Since there are so many eyes on this thread, don't mind a bit of self-promotion, the welds on a Moots are indeed impeccable, but I have come up with a highly innovative way to join the tubes which makes my bike extremely customizable, even my customers can adjust it themselves after they bring their custom bike home...

http://alicehui.com/bike/cx/rsz_uindkcpgfkvhm5rd.jpg

[weisan]

if you add jb weld, you'll realize a 19% increase in laterall stiffness without sacrificing the ability to add a sprinkler head on the down tube.

54 pal, I like the way you think...now the bigger question is, would my bike have a higher resale value than say, a Moots? :p

[jlwdm]

54 pal, I like the way you think...now the bigger question is, would my bike have a higher resale value than say, a Moots? :p

It depends on what your decals look like.

Jeff

[weisan]

It depends on what your decals look like.

Jeff

Well, in that case, I think we absolutely nailed it!

http://gdj.gdj.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/best+logos+3.jpg

[gemship]

Well, in that case, I think we absolutely nailed it!

http://gdj.gdj.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/best+logos+3.jpg

Well I cry copywright infringement you stinker!

[weisan]

Well I cry copywright infringement you stinker!

Yes, we know, thank you very much...Mike's lawyer already sent us a letter.
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/tyyEG8Q81dc/maxresdefault.jpg

[I Want Sachs?]

Overrated means having a higher opinion than is deserved.

OP is just stating following:

Moots does not perform up to generally accepted opinion. (definition of above)

The Eriksen that he sold, is not overrated like the Moots because it is regarded lower. We do know somehow the fit is not quite right, and for a custom, then that is part of the reputation if custom was built to the rider.

In essence, two companies are knocked in the implicit title statements and the post.

[oldpotatoe]

Finish, Tubes (i don't think moots are butted), Features like the wishbone tail (rout) which is cheaper to make. Nothing wrong with them but I preferred my old IF over it and it had pretty much the exact same geometry. mosaic rides better too. I probably was a heavy handed how I said it. its nuances

RSL uses butted tubes, others not, like Mosaic, butted and not. Not sure if a wishbone is cheaper or not. I suspect YBB option has something to do with that.

Thanks for the response tho.

[I Want Sachs?]

Somehow cyclist like alcohol drinking blue collar builders.

Remember years ago, article compared IF and Seven. I remember the summary stated something like this.

"At Seven we were handed safety googles, at IF, we were handed a beer and chill. Get what you want with who jives with you."

At Mosaic, builder loosen up with whisky and jives a blue collar ethos that blue collar can't afford but white collar folks wish to adorn.

[eddief]

people love how the name rolls off the tongue and the simple decals are a great trademark. Of course, they do fine tube joining. Otherwise, it's just a bike...much like any other.

[Birddog]

Thread title should have been "Why is Eriksen so underrated?"

[thegunner]

Thread title should have been "Why is Eriksen so underrated?"

:) but it wouldn't have gotten half the views.

[pinoymamba]

moots beating out the specialized vias and giant propel in the sprint... will state that in my for sale ad if i ever sell it...

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/691/20211691513_c884a2f090_z_d.jpg

:rolleyes:

[sw3759]

gosh I have several Moots frames and never perceived them as overrated just as good or better than anything I've ridden or seen and since visiting steamboat became more of fan truthfully(my avatar is me in front of the moots factory) .i've owned a few MA Merlins Serotta legend and a ti litespeed mtb and Bianchi megatube. certainly nicer Ti than those but the Moots are newer models too.
I always considered an Eriksen had more cache than a Moots,at least if you know the backstory

[beeatnik]

The frame is the frame.

[Mikej]

Moots welds are absolutely the best in the business. There. I said it. -Jeff N.

But Brad at Eriksen is Moots former head welder - so...and since I already admitted my Eriksen fetish, I will also mention Kent is an MTB hall of famer- I remember a story by Tilford about how Kent built him and another guy frames and built up thier bikes the night before an early NORBA nat'l and then beat them in the race- I know moots rides and all, but I see Kent and Katie out there - and shake the hand that did the work-so I will second the "why are Eriksens so under rated" quote-and they are less exspensive -

[KonaSS]

To be clear, the question should be why do Moots hold their value more than other brands? It is a good question, I don't know the answer, but branding, perceived quality come into play.

There are similar anomalies with other brands as well. Go look at a used Specialized bike and compare that to Giant or even something like a very comparable Fuji carbon frame. The Specialized will sell for much more than the other two.

If fact, I was even looking at some Specialized bikes, all used, on ebay. Complete stock bikes (for example ultegra equiped) were selling for way more than I could buy the same used frame, add my own new Ultegra group and comparable parts. The math just didn't make sense, other than people don't want to go to the trouble to build up their own bikes.

[Mikej]

Nevermind :)

Well played...

[beeatnik]

Pastel Tres Leches is delicious.

[texbike]

Seriously? You think Moots are overrated???

I've had the fortune to own some really nice bikes over the years. However, none of them can/could match the simplistic and jewel-like beauty of my Vamoots. It looks sharp and rides wonderfully. I look forward to every ride on it.

Overrated? I think not.

Texbike

[happycampyer]

<snip>

if you are looking to not lose money on a frame...dont buy them new.
simple as that.A lot of what I wanted to say has already been said, but I thought I would provide my own perspective.

Over the years I have bought a lot of Moots, and over time have sold many of them off (Vamoots SL, 2 Compact SLs (55 and 56), Psychlo-X, RSL were all bought new and eventually sold). Maybe I've just been lucky, but in each case I sold the frame for approximately 60% of what I paid for it. But I know it's not luck, because I have followed the prices of Moots in the secondary market (here, ebay, etc.), and I think that that's not unusual. I've said many times, there are very few frames that hold their value as well as a Moots.

So, why is that? I think it's for a lot of reasons already stated. Moots has consistently put out a super high-quality product (with welds, as I think Jeff N said many, many years ago here, "as if laid by the Hand of God"). They offer primarily stock products, in desirable geometries, so a secondhand buyer typically isn't taking a leap of faith when buying used. Their product lines carefully evolve with the times, with only occasional misses (the Malcolm comes to mind). They don't go too crazy with tube manipulation, custom dropouts, etc., and build in batches, so they keep the MSRP in check (relatively speaking). When one deals with Moots employees over the phone or in person, or read their blogs, etc., they are very humble folks, so it's easy to be drawn to them. Their branding is an extension of that attitude ("Yeah, we like to weld"). The list goes on.

But what all of that has created is something that is the envy of almost every business: a large (relative to the niche) and very loyal following. It reminds me a lot of Mac users in the '90's. A following that is very satisfied with their bikes and as a result tends to hold onto their bikes. And Moots does a great job cultivating that loyalty--they kill it when it comes to branded merchandise:

http://www.smugmug.com/photos/i-pLtq7zf/1/L/i-pLtq7zf-L.jpg

Taking all of that into consideration, it's no wonder that frames that are comparable in terms of quality of manufacture--and in some cases have more involved manufacturing processes--don't hold their value as well. Custom geometry and custom tube selection (was this built for a 220lb rider?) can hurt resale, sometimes significantly. And as someone mentioned, there's a greater sense of security that, if anything happened to a Moots frame down the road, the company is more likely to still be there to take care of it than a one- or couple-person shop.

To eBAUMANN's point above, I've bought plenty of bikes new that I knew going in I wouldn't get back as much on a percentage basis as I have or would with a Moots. I just accept that as a reality. I have an Eriksen-built Hampsten that might come close. I consider myself fortunate that I was able to get one of the last Legends ever built (I think it was the 3rd-to-last). It really is magnificent to see what Serotta was capable of in titanium. When I bought it the prices had been adjusted, so it cost a little more than an RSL. If I were to sell it, I would be lucky to get 2/3 of what I got for my RSL. But I don't really care, since I can't imagine a ti bike that I would like better.

So, is Moots overrated? I don't think so. I think the market tends to price things pretty fairly, when one takes into account all of the intangibles.


I didn't receive your order yet, did you hit "Submit"?

Since there are so many eyes on this thread, don't mind a bit of self-promotion, the welds on a Moots are indeed impeccable, but I have come up with a highly innovative way to join the tubes which makes my bike extremely customizable, even my customers can adjust it themselves after they bring their custom bike home...

http://alicehui.com/bike/cx/rsz_uindkcpgfkvhm5rd.jpgI like that you offer internal cable routing. Another reason to get a Weisan over a Moots! You're a shoe-in for Best Hose Clamps at NAHBS.

[bobswire]

I had the best of both Worlds, this was Kents own bike at one time. He gave it to one of his employees who in turn sold it to me. Kent verified it was his. I ended up selling it since I seldom do long road rides any longer as opposed to shorter workouts I do around the City. I felt it needed to get out on the road.

http://i46.tinypic.com/m83cph.jpg

Original thread on this bike. http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=116342&highlight=moots

[xeladragon]

I cannot understand why Moots is so overrated and overpriced compared to other Ti frames.


Not sure if someone else has already said it, but if you fit their stock geometry, then a Moots can be cheaper than a lot of the other "premiere" Ti brands out there. So not overpriced IMO.

[Dead Man]

I had the best of both Worlds, this was Kents own bike at one time. He gave it to one of his employees who in turn sold it to me. Kent verified it was his. I ended up selling it since I seldom do long road rides any longer as opposed to shorter workouts I do around the City. I felt it needed to get out on the road.

http://i46.tinypic.com/m83cph.jpg

Original thread on this bike. http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=116342&highlight=moots

Now this is a Moots I'd throw a leg over.. nice. Love the classic geo.

I'd still yank them decals off, though.

[enr1co]

Had an overrated Moots Compact (stock)- bought it used on ebay for ~40% list. ;) Loved it but after riding it a few hundred miles found fit was just a tad small so sold it as I had opportunity to buy an overrated Hampsten GP Ti ;) that fit me perfectly for ~30% off.

Kidding aside, imho its the logo that separates it from the rest of the Ti crowd:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-28zDM1rvdT0/T2qzQMWJUQI/AAAAAAAADO0/0XOIu45drTI/s1600/LOGO_2010MrMOOTS.jpg

[many_styles]

Was looking for an Eriksen, Moots, or Mosiac. The Moots popped up quicker so I bought it!

Pinoy; post the podium shot of you and the Compact SL! 😎

[shovelhd]

Maybe I'll list my VW for sale as a Porsche. It's the same company, right?

[Cicli]

Maybe I'll list my VW for sale as a Porsche. It's the same company, right?

Guys used to say a Porsche was nothing more than a VW with a tachometer added.

[oldpotatoe]

But Brad at Eriksen is Moots former head welder - so...and since I already admitted my Eriksen fetish, I will also mention Kent is an MTB hall of famer- I remember a story by Tilford about how Kent built him and another guy frames and built up thier bikes the night before an early NORBA nat'l and then beat them in the race- I know moots rides and all, but I see Kent and Katie out there - and shake the hand that did the work-so I will second the "why are Eriksens so under rated" quote-and they are less expensive -

You can shake Butch's hand too. Same $ also-Road Eriksen and Moots Vamoots.

I think comparing Kent to Moots is a little odd. Yes they both make titanium frames but Moots is best compared to Seven, Eriksen to Mosaic or Firefly..large-ish-1000++ frames with dealer network to small, maybe 150 per year and direct to consumer.

[soulspinner]

moots beating out the specialized vias and giant propel in the sprint... will state that in my for sale ad if i ever sell it...

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/691/20211691513_c884a2f090_z_d.jpg

:rolleyes:

:beer:

[fuzzalow]

This comment reflects a few others, that I was disappointed or even bitter with the sales of my Eriksen. That was not the case at all and I apologize if my OP came across as such.

I sold my Eriksen at what I thought was a fair price and hopefully the buyer is pleased and is enjoying a wonderful bike.

I used my sale only as an illustration- that often Ti frames made by builders as good as Moots do not have the bling factor of a Moots. I was using the Eriksen to make the point that frames made by the founder of Moots don't get the attention that Moots get. An ironic point I felt.

Custom frames do not sell well, that's a given. A unique anything seldom dies unless it falls into the category of collecting, art, autos, etc.

My point remains....

Comparing apples to apples, eg stock Ti frame vs stock Ti frame, a Moots will garner more responses and a better price then equal quality frames.

And, I do not mean to be dismissive of anyone who owners a Moots. As I said in my original opinion piece, they produce a lovely, beautiful, well made frame.

I just believe they are able to command a somewhat higher price then other equal frames.

My question was why? Public lust driven by hype and perception?

I can appreciate your desire to create a provocative discussion which goes to challenging and questioning consumer preference. Which for many is tantamount to a personal challenge to each person himself because the typical consumer has any number of very personal factors wrapped up in what they buy that it might define who they are. Nuthin' wrong with that. Everybody brandishes any number of symbols for what they consume. The difference being for some it will be incidental and for others it will mean something more.

I have never bought a pre-owned bike. I have never bought anything, excluding investments, with any concern whatsoever as to what it might sell for later on. I was tempted to say also real estate ( location, location, location) but even that is a non-issue because you're gonna live where you wanna live.

What anything I enjoy using or owning has always been reason enough. I have my reasons for choosing them. I couldn't care less what it is worth to sell to somebody else afterwards. I don't care one bit about getting validation from the crowd that my stuff is good stuff 'cos what somebody else thinks is unimportant to me. Accusations of hype is not an affront to me because I don't feel duped in buying the goods that I buy. But your use of ad hominem to anyone by implying that they have fallen for hype is a cheesy way to get a topic roiling.

I dunno, the topics that get the most reliable traction in the interwebs are always the negative rants and raves. Instead of tearing down on Moots as being "overrated" why don't you build a case for why you think Eriksens are "underrated".

Buying stuff like Rolex watches, Leica cameras, Apple anything, Moot bicycles, etc all embody a level of quality and desirability. The value equation is calculated before going in in buying it. It is not found in the validation of +/- a few % in the resale price into the secondary market when you wanna sell it. Sure, you want more money - duh. Who doesn't.

[malcolm]

[QUOTE=beeatnik;1851704]People place too much value on the aesthetics of the weldz. My Compact Sl had perfect welds.



Aesthetics of welds are important. Our choices in reality are probably mostly aesthetic. As far as welds go it's all you have to judge it by. You can't x-ray them. I think in general a well penetrated as in not humped up or undercut weld with nice symmetric puddles is likely to be a good weld and of course pleasing to they eye.

[alancw3]

so my initial reaction was that you do not understand the used bike market.. 40% is a great recovery on an initial purchase price of a custom bike imho.

[joosttx]

RSL uses butted tubes, others not, like Mosaic, butted and not. Not sure if a wishbone is cheaper or not. I suspect YBB option has something to do with that.

Thanks for the response tho.

Gotcha, I was referring to my own choice rout vs XT-1. Sounds like the only option for the Moots was non butted tubes in the model. That's what I was also told. Mosaic also machines the head tubes. Their ISP is the nicest I have seen. moots doesn't offer that. It's custom vs not custom.

[oldpotatoe]

Gotcha, I was referring to my own choice rout vs XT-1. Sounds like the only option for the Moots was non butted tubes in the model. That's what I was also told. Mosaic also machines the head tubes. Their ISP is the nicest I have seen. moots doesn't offer that. It's custom vs not custom.

Mosaic is teeny, which often = some flexibility. ISP? No thanks, in any form. Cheaper to make, certainly. But it is marketing 101, imho.

[Dead Man]

Moots would only be overrated if there were people out there who regretted their Moots purchase; or felt, after the fact, that they paid way too much for what they got in the end.

I've never seen a single person indicate either of those. Has anyone else?


Moots is not worth it for me. Now this is could very well be a very true statement from any given person not buying one... but you can't just generalize 'em as overrated.

[mosca]

Moots - they are like the Radiohead of the bike world. High quality, highly regarded, well known even to most mainstream consumers. Hipsters like us, however - we know about the real good stuff. The rest of the world just doesn't get us...

[J. Anquetil]

Moots builds solid, reliable, well built frames. Whether it's worth paying $300 more or less for any other frame, well, that's the nature of the market. Also, the Internet has become the source of all too many self-promoting, self-important builders and merchants who provide an additional nudge to natural market distortions. And those are the ones you ought to avoid.

In business, the value of the brand is of paramount importance. Coca Cola, for instance. As far as I am concerned Coca Cola ought to be banned. But the price of the name far surpasses the quality or worthiness of the product. Is it worth paying more for a Moots than for an Eriksen, for instance...? I most certainly don't think so. And I absolutely love my Vamoots SL.

Don't buy the brand, don't listen to the bs artists and pied pipers that abound in the Internet. Ride your bicycle, ride it plenty, think about what you would like to be better when you ride, then look around, be specific, talk to people here and there, learn to discern what makes sense from hype and what sounds like too good to be true, look for the experienced makers who will listen to what you have to say and responds pointedly and kindly. Moots build fantastic frames, and they will listen and they are short on bs and hype. I love Moots.

[gemship]

Moots - they are like the Radiohead of the bike world. High quality, highly regarded, well known even to most mainstream consumers. Hipsters like us, however - we know about the real good stuff. The rest of the world just doesn't get us...

Right on... and took being on the forum for me to find out about some really hot bike brands!

I don't know about Moots being overrated having said that as I believe there many who love the brand. Moots is not a huge bike company but they seem to have a pretty good following, maybe just better marketing? More support by the LBS?

I bet Erikson is right up there albeit a lot smaller and less well known simple as that.

[joosttx]

Mosaic is teeny, which often = some flexibility. ISP? No thanks, in any form. Cheaper to make, certainly. But it is marketing 101, imho.

My mosaic is plenty stiff. Stiffer in the right areas than my IF and the Rout I test rode. And the tubes a pretty fat. Not sure if I describe them as teeny or tiny.

[Joachim]

My mosaic is plenty stiff. Stiffer in the right areas than my IF and the Rout I test rode. And the tubes a pretty fat. Not sure if I describe them as teeny or tiny.

?? I pretty sure he meant flexibility in what they can offer, like an ISP etc. Teeny in size of the company...not the tubes.

[OtayBW]

I can appreciate your desire to create a provocative discussion which goes to challenging and questioning consumer preference. Which for many is tantamount to a personal challenge to each person himself because the typical consumer has any number of very personal factors wrapped up in what they buy that it might define who they are....

...I dunno, the topics that get the most reliable traction in the interwebs are always the negative rants and raves. Instead of tearing down on Moots as being "overrated" why don't you build a case for why you think Eriksens are "underrated".

I guess I'll have to go back and have a look at the original post again. I sure didn't read all that into it the first time.

[spacemen3]

It's a bike, so if I can't afford it, it's overrated. Pretty simple metric IMHO. ;)

[gemship]

It's a bike, so if I can't afford it, it's overrated. Pretty simple metric IMHO. ;)

This is not a bad metric and with that one more plug in for 105 11speed group, it's an amazing value for what it delivers and sexy too.

[texbike]

Personally, I am really glad that the "big name brands" like moots exist...why? because while all the poseurs are fawning over those big names, the rest of us who can actually recognize quality beyond a sticker end up getting great deals on all the other lesser known builders frames...

Moots - they are like the Radiohead of the bike world. High quality, highly regarded, well known even to most mainstream consumers. Hipsters like us, however - we know about the real good stuff. The rest of the world just doesn't get us...

Hmmmm. That explains it. I am a bit of a poseur, not really much of a hipster, cool-cat, cutting-edge type. I do like Radiohead.

This all must be why I like my Moots. Got it now. Thanks!

Texbike

[Geeheeb]

need to find the napalm death of bikes then...

[oldpotatoe]

My mosaic is plenty stiff. Stiffer in the right areas than my IF and the Rout I test rode. And the tubes a pretty fat. Not sure if I describe them as teeny or tiny.

Flexible in that a small builder can do some higher time to accomplish job, machining or something....not referring to ride characteristics at all.

[weaponsgrade]

Someone mentioned brand value and Coke. Here's something to put things in perspective: the Coke brand is valued at 83.4 billion (http://www.statista.com). That's almost half their market cap.

Carry on.

[Clancy]

All in all I would say this has been a good, solid, and lively conversation. I'll also say that I've change my attitude/mindset on the overrated-ness, if there is such a word, of Moots.

I appreciate what Fuzzalow stated. Although my ordinal post was meant to "create a provocative conversation" I never intended for it to be a "personal challenge" to anyone who owns a Moots. I can certainly see how it came across that way. If it did came across that way to any Moots riders out there, my apologies.

I have to say that what 11.4, happycampyer, and Malcolm wrote was what made me rethink my original statements. And I do agree, a perceived value, although not measurable or that readily apparent, will add to any products price. What I found really interesting is how well many were able to define those values.

When it comes to bikes and cycling, it is after all passion that spurs most of us. And as was said so well, an object, or in this case a Moots, is worth more if it is able to bring out that passion in a person. If one person feels it, it doesn't matter if others don't.

So everyone, thanks for getting me through some serious storms and flooding. I now have a new appreciation for Moots.

Anyone have a nice used VAMOOTS in a 54 they'd like to sell cheap?

[fuzzalow]

I appreciate what Fuzzalow stated. Although my ordinal post was meant to "create a provocative conversation" I never intended for it to be a "personal challenge" to anyone who owns a Moots. I can certainly see how it came across that way. If it did came across that way to any Moots riders out there, my apologies.

All this is just talkin' bikes. Fun stuff. I'm not the least bit bothered about the OP and I responded in kind. Just talkin' bikes. I am not the least bit threatened by anything we could possibly discuss in the world of bikes. No apologies warranted or necessary. Dontworryaboudit.

In my post the word that preceded "personal challenge" was the word "tantamount". As in meaning some folks feel intensely about what they purchase and might get defensive when their choice is not universally praised.

I guess I'll have to go back and have a look at the original post again. I sure didn't read all that into it the first time.

I take the view that it is flowing conversation and not writing to be parsed and picked over to be taken as intently precise in search of misstatements, non-sequiturs and "gotchas". But I am precise in what I write anyway, as a matter of form & habit; I can't speak about concerning your comprehension. But be aware it's not a whole lotta fun talkin' to somebody who can't put forth something to add to a discussion but instead is looking at flaws in things I said. Boring. C'mon, say something interesting.

[Seramount]

the thread title was designed to generate arguments.

all the OP had to do to create a more genteel discussion was delete the word 'why' in it.

[J. Anquetil]

My Vamoots SL has a 53.5 cm. seat tube, but... sorry, I'd never sell it. :beer:

All in all I would say this has been a good, solid, and lively conversation. I'll also say that I've change my attitude/mindset on the overrated-ness, if there is such a word, of Moots.

I appreciate what Fuzzalow stated. Although my ordinal post was meant to "create a provocative conversation" I never intended for it to be a "personal challenge" to anyone who owns a Moots. I can certainly see how it came across that way. If it did came across that way to any Moots riders out there, my apologies.

I have to say that what 11.4, happycampyer, and Malcolm wrote was what made me rethink my original statements. And I do agree, a perceived value, although not measurable or that readily apparent, will add to any products price. What I found really interesting is how well many were able to define those values.

When it comes to bikes and cycling, it is after all passion that spurs most of us. And as was said so well, an object, or in this case a Moots, is worth more if it is able to bring out that passion in a person. If one person feels it, it doesn't matter if others don't.

So everyone, thanks for getting me through some serious storms and flooding. I now have a new appreciation for Moots.

Anyone have a nice used VAMOOTS in a 54 they'd like to sell cheap?

[fuzzalow]

the thread title was designed to generate arguments.

all the OP had to do to create a more genteel discussion was delete the word 'why' in it.

Yeah it was somewhat contrived to evoke a reaction. But sometimes it gets written in a way to garner some eyeballs - nuthin' wrong with that.

But even if it was meant to provoke, the get a conversation going, doesn't mean anybody's gotta respond like their hair's on fire about it? Right?

I own an Eriksen. Tell me it is the worst bike on the planet. Then ask me if I care about what was just said. C'mon, like I care about a random opinion from some numbnuts. But make a reasoned argument, and I'll enjoy batting that one around just for the fun of doing it. And maybe I'll be convinced an Eriksen IS the worst bike on the planet. Hey, you never know - maybe there is something I don't know about it. I'll listen until I figure out somebody's not worth listening to anymore.

[OtayBW]

But be aware it's not a whole lotta fun talkin' to somebody who can't put forth something to add to a discussion but instead is looking at flaws in things I said. Boring. C'mon, say something interesting.Sorry, I usually try simply to be straightfoward rather than flowery in my tone and language. So, to say again for you, simply: it is my opinion that you read more 'flaw' into the original post than I think existed. That's really no big deal - although it is pretty ironic - but no big whoop one way or the other. :rolleyes:

[AngryScientist]

All in all I would say this has been a good, solid, and lively conversation.

yes.

and that's what we're here for, to chit chat about bikes on a bike forum.

my initial response in this thread was rather short and over-reactionary, which i too apologize for.

lots of good information and perspectives put fourth in this thread, which made for a good read.

for me personally, i own a fixed gear moots PSX, and would love to own a vamoots roadie if the opportunity presented itself. i dont know what it is about that bike, but i can just ride if forever, it's so good. i've mated mine to a steel fork too, which is relatively uncommon. i believe that combination is really something spectacular.

carry on army of moots, the flag flies high!

(this thread needs more MOOTS!)

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-zfGBtb2auxc/VTRU3dqKQ3I/AAAAAAAACAw/7F4p2Jt1g9Q/s1100/P1080466.JPG

[weisan]

(this thread needs more MOOTS!)

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-zfGBtb2auxc/VTRU3dqKQ3I/AAAAAAAACAw/7F4p2Jt1g9Q/s1100/P1080466.JPG

The adult channel is here:
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=172626

[thegunner]

@Nick YOU HAD YOUR CHANCE :)

[Joachim]

So if someone wants a custom (geometry) Moots, which dealer should they work with? (There is no local dealer in the state). I know directly with Moots is an option too. In other words, I'm asking for Moots dealer recommendations. Only those you had personal experience with....

[11.4]

Vecchio's is like the second or third largest Moots dealer in the country, despite being a small shop. They mail order frames all the time, and I got one of the last frames that Tater sold before he left.

That said, Moots builds dealer relationships with a lot of good shops. You won't go wrong with any of them that I've worked with, and Moots does a good job of keeping you out of trouble and happy with your frame (see the comments above about conservative custom work).

[oldpotatoe]

So if someone wants a custom (geometry) Moots, which dealer should they work with? (There is no local dealer in the state). I know directly with Moots is an option too. In other words, I'm asking for Moots dealer recommendations. Only those you had personal experience with....

Veccchio's in Boulder, Talk to Jim or Joe..been selling them for a long time, consistently top 2-4 in the US in sales. Lots of demos on the floor...

303-440-3535

jim@vecchios.com

I'll pack the new wheels with the frame!!

[Joachim]

Veccchio's in Boulder, Talk to Jim or Joe..been selling them for a long time, consistently top 2-4 in the US in sales. Lots of demos on the floor...

303-440-3535

jim@vecchios.com

I'll pack the new wheels with the frame!!

What would the advantage be of going through a dealer instead of directly through moots (no dealer in my state so can go directly through Moots)? Don't need a fit, contact points are nailed down, travel is too far to demo.

[ERK55]

Moots doesn't sell directly.
Must go through a dealer.

[happycampyer]

Moots doesn't sell directly.
Must go through a dealer.
Exactly. Moots isn't set up for direct sales to consumers. As mentioned above, Vecchio's is a top (and obvious) choice. Another shop that I can recommend that is local to me is CycleSport in NJ. Even though your contact points are completely sorted, there are details that the shop needs to handle. Moots custom is more like "made to measure" than pure custom (i.e., design a bike from a blank piece of paper).

Oldpotatoe's retirement bike is about as custom a bike I've seen for a "customer." They are capable of really esoteric stuff (such as Mike Curiak's bikes), but in my experience they stick to variations on their basic models.

[Joachim]

In that case I have my pick of dealers.... Probably just start calling to see who is the easiest to work with :)

And I get the 'custom' part. I'm basically between two sizes and refuse to ride with 30mm spacers (smaller size) or a too short stem (one size up). so it's really a head tube adjustment and top tube length/angle adjustment so that my my contact points fall in the right place between the wheels.

[xeladragon]

In that case I have my pick of dealers.... Probably just start calling to see who is the easiest to work with :)

And I get the 'custom' part. I'm basically between two sizes and refuse to ride with 30mm spacers (smaller size) or a too short stem (one size up). so it's really a head tube adjustment and top tube length/angle adjustment so that my my contact points fall in the right place between the wheels.

No sales tax in NH. :)

http://exetercycles.com

That's where I ordered mine... short drive from Boston. Nice guys, easy to work with, I'd recommend them.

Anyway, I know Moots will increase HT length free of charge. With mine, I got stock geo with the only change being a shorter HT length, which is considered semi-custom, I guess? So it was about half the cost of going full custom. I could've made the stock HT length work with a slammed 17-degree stem but... I'm happy I spent the extra money.

[mike mcdermid]

Why is Moots overrated?

They aren't they make a product that sells for a price they can survive as a company

everyone wants a supercar for Ford money .....tough

[weisan]

Wanna know what is truly "overrated"?

This.

:D

http://photos.laineygossip.com/articles/lance-armstrong-17jul15-07.jpg

[soulspinner]

Wanna know what is truly "overrated"?

This.

:D

http://photos.laineygossip.com/articles/lance-armstrong-17jul15-07.jpg

:p

[oldpotatoe]

No sales tax in NH. :)

http://exetercycles.com

That's where I ordered mine... short drive from Boston. Nice guys, easy to work with, I'd recommend them.

Anyway, I know Moots will increase HT length free of charge. With mine, I got stock geo with the only change being a shorter HT length, which is considered semi-custom, I guess? So it was about half the cost of going full custom. I could've made the stock HT length work with a slammed 17-degree stem but... I'm happy I spent the extra money.

No sales tax at Vecchio's either if it goes out of state.

[Dead Man]

Wanna know what is truly "overrated"?

This.

:D

http://photos.laineygossip.com/articles/lance-armstrong-17jul15-07.jpg

fuzzy legs.... W T F, Juan??

[raygunner]

No sales tax at Vecchio's either if it goes out of state.

Really?

So if I get fitted & order in the store but have it shipped to another state there's no sales tax?

You know I've always wanted to visit Boulder...

PS - This thread has just increased my desire for a Moots!

[54ny77]

That's the case for any retail store that doesn't have a physical presence in your home state, and can ship. The tax savings can be meaningful on a large purchase relative to shipping costs. On a little item, it's usually a wash, if not upside down.

Really?

So if I get fitted & order in the store but have it shipped to another state there's no sales tax?

You know I've always wanted to visit Boulder...

[oldpotatoe]

Really?

So if I get fitted & order in the store but have it shipped to another state there's no sales tax?

You know I've always wanted to visit Boulder...

PS - This thread has just increased my desire for a Moots!

Well, backtracking a bit. That's what I did when I owned the shop. Shop out of state, no tax.

[christian]

If a shop doesn't charge sales tax, you are technically required to pay use tax in your home state as part of your annual tax filing. I know evasion of out of state sales tax is rampant, but that's the law.

[pitonpat]

It's flooding here in Texas... (from the first line of the OP's posting...)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtLwuPCUEdg


Apparently the opinions on Moots are so strong among those who replied that the connection to Stevie Ray was missed....

[weisan]

It's flooding here in Texas... (from the first line of the OP's posting...)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtLwuPCUEdg


Apparently the opinions on Moots are so strong among those who replied that the connection to Stevie Ray was missed....

Actually, literally speaking it is, just this past Friday...

http://cityhallblog.dallasnews.com/files/2015/05/AX075_2BD3_9.jpg

[OtayBW]

It's flooding here in Texas... (from the first line of the OP's posting...). Apparently the opinions on Moots are so strong among those who replied that the connection to Stevie Ray was missed....
Nope - not really. First thing I thought of....

[josephr]

2. A lot of classified ads here seem to have prices that are way outside of reality.


a lot of buyers from here are cheap and won't pay market prices that reflect the reality of the market. :fight:

[Dead Man]

a lot of buyers from here are cheap and won't pay market prices that reflect the reality of the market. :fight:

The collective buyer IS the market, including people here. What people are currently willing to pay at any given time IS the current market value for a given thing. Where are you seeing people willing to pay more for a Moots than people from Paceline?

[malcolm]

The collective buyer IS the market, including people here. What people are currently willing to pay at any given time IS the current market value for a given thing. Where are you seeing people willing to pay more for a Moots than people from Paceline?

I almost always get more on ebay than here, but I usually ask more on ebay.

[Dead Man]

I almost always get more on ebay than here, but I usually ask more on ebay.

If we're talking stuff in general - production groupsets, wheels, stems, whatevs - Paceline isn't supposed to be the place to get top dollar. That's what eBay is for. Paceline classifieds is supposed to be all about the bro-deal... "forum friendly pricing." Hooking up your brother.

A Moots is a different beast. Nobody expects anyone posting a Moots here to post it for "bro deal" price, whatever that would even be. You can't just buy one in your size on eBay any time you want. But the price still has to reflect what a person is going to pay for it. Some here seem to be implying the Moots will be purchased from some other venue for a higher dollar amount than here.... it's just sort of a nonsensical assertion. IF you can get more money on eBay for a Moots, its because there are MILLIONS of people on eBay compared to ... what? a few thousand Paceline members?

Unless you're saying the typical Paceliner has less disposable income or passion for fine bikes than your typical eBay user?

Just isn't working. Maybe I'm stupid.

I'm not stupid.

[11.4]

If we're talking stuff in general - production groupsets, wheels, stems, whatevs - Paceline isn't supposed to be the place to get top dollar. That's what eBay is for. Paceline classifieds is supposed to be all about the bro-deal... "forum friendly pricing." Hooking up your brother.

A Moots is a different beast. Nobody expects anyone posting a Moots here to post it for "bro deal" price, whatever that would even be. You can't just buy one in your size on eBay any time you want. But the price still has to reflect what a person is going to pay for it. Some here seem to be implying the Moots will be purchased from some other venue for a higher dollar amount than here.... it's just sort of a nonsensical assertion. IF you can get more money on eBay for a Moots, its because there are MILLIONS of people on eBay compared to ... what? a few thousand Paceline members?

Unless you're saying the typical Paceliner has less disposable income or passion for fine bikes than your typical eBay user?

Just isn't working. Maybe I'm stupid.

I'm not stupid.

I'm not sure this is the case. There are sometimes screaming deals, but generally one knows one's buying from a known reliable seller and the service, the questions answered, and so on are all first rate. I might sell a pair of Vittoria Open Pave's for ten dollars less, but would I sell an expensive frame in superb condition for less? I didn't have to. I might cut a deal for a forumite I know and like, just like for a team member; that doesn't happen on eBay. The dynamics are all different.

Also, there are usually multiple buyers and price is set by the highest priced buyer, not the median. There are people on here who get upset because they think $150 is a fair price, when there's a $280 price available from someone else and a $310 price on eBay. That's just the way it is. I sell according to my budget and buy according to my budget, and don't worry if someone wants more or gets it or less.

[11.4]

And by the way, mods, it seems we've beaten this issue to death and I haven't seen anything new in quite a while. And more to the point, we have a high end brand under new ownership that has been getting critiqued one way or another for some weeks here. I'd move to lock this thread and move on with life. Any seconds?

[AngryScientist]

Any seconds?

seconded and closed.

good discussion, but like lane said, i think we're done here.