Feeling less and less inclined to buy local

[Veloo]

My LBS rant. Those in Toronto bike retail, feel free to chime in.
I've made an effort and paid the higher prices to support the local scene but I'm finding fewer and fewer shops that I can categorize as reliable/ good lately.

In point form:
- limited stock and selection - it's always, we don't have it but we can get it
- prices on the websites don't match those on the phone which don't match the ones in store
- staff that plain and simply don't know what their talking about
- not knowing what products are out there on the market - I'll admit, this forum has helped open my eyes beyond Giro, Bell, LG, Sidi, Pearl Izumi, etc... Maybe some of the staff should join this forum.

Today was the last straw.
I placed an order for two items a couple of weeks ago. It's stuff this shop carries but I wanted a different colour. I would think I'd get a call a day or two later with ETAs but I had to call to inquire.
First item comes in and the price ends up being almost $20 more than they had told me which was $60. I paid it anyway since I know the owner (somewhat) and some of the staff.
So it's 2 weeks later and I had to call for status on the 2nd item. They have no status. Their order guy is on vacation. I'm thinking, "No one else is able to call the distributor?" I ask them to do so and they tell me (with hesitation/ reluctance) that they will call me back with status.
I make the decision to call the distributor myself right after I hang up since they have not instilled any confidence in me. The disty says no order form the shop at all. So I end up placing the order with the disty on behalf of the shop.
The disty tells me how the custom orders cane be the bane of the LBS as they get busy with bigger sales.

This isn't the first time I've called a distributor to get the real scoop on one of my Toronto LBS orders.

Dunno if I wanna bother giving any constructive feedback to the owner. At this point, feeling more like directing my business from a lot of the locals to online - without guilt.

[11.4]

Don't know Toronto bike shops currently, but I'm in Dallas and have several superb shops that work hard to make locals happy. Until recently, I was in Seattle, and could have said the same there -- good shops with a lot of expertise and capabilities. And good service.

Local bike retail is a very difficult business. Bike sales are declining year to year, and not by small increments either. Plus internet shopping is sucking some of the best sales from the local shops. No one in their right mind should think of starting a bike shop, and many have folded in recent years. So if you have a really incompetent or deceitful shop, then screw 'em. If t's just that they don't work as fast as Amazon Prime, and you've been shopping online or internationally anyway, then perhaps give them a break. If there aren't good shops around, that's a vacuum and someone will fill it. That's how retail works. In six months, you may have a new shop or an existing one who provides what others have lacked. Some of them will fail, but that's the story of bike shops. But when they succeed, they are great.

[regularguy412]

Pretty much have had the OP's same experience. Way back when I started riding 'seriously', we had no LBS within 100 miles. I ended up getting my first, real bike at a shop about 150 miles away. I bought all the necessary tools, read lots and with the help of my racing buddies -- learned to do my own wrenching.

Fast forward to today. We've now had a 'real' bike shop only 20 miles away for the last 20 years or so. By the time it came along, I had already gotten used to ordering my own stuff and installing it. I've tried to support it when I can, but it, too, has a selective product line. So if you don't want or can't use what they sell, you're kinda forced to source it elsewhere.

I'm glad, actually, that we have an LBS, not because it helps ME much, but others who want to ride but not wrench can still enjoy cycling.

Mike in AR:beer:

[AngryScientist]

Today's LBS is a small business working in a competitive market.

the principals that any biz in that situation need to operate under are:

1) need to earn the customer's business
2) need to work hard to keep the customer's business

if they aren't striving to meet those goals, vote with your wallet.

i do all of my own wrench work, but the value that my local shops provide is the social aspect of cycling. for example the weekend before every thanksgiving, they hold a "turkey run" where we all get on bikes, do a nice ride and stop at a supermarket, load backpacks with turkeys and deliver them to a shelter. that's cool. i'm going to buy a shop jersey or something this year as a vote of appreciation for that service...

[Mikej]

I'm going to have to say that the local LBS's in my area have REALLY stepped it up over the past few years. I was getting QBP in 2 days and their in store was keeping me in chains, tires and cables, consumables etc. - Its natural selection...

[oldpotatoe]

Retail is tough, and a lot of what you mention is just poor training, poor selection of employees, inability to pay well to get better employees.

As for the 'stuff', dealing with interweb sales is hard, getting harder. The distribution 'system' is gooned up, and the manufacturer's refuse to do anything about it to 'help' IBDs(Independent Bike dealers).

The bike stuff distribution 'system', in the US anyway(suspect same for Canada-eh?) is gooned up also. BUT with so many manufacturers sharing what makes up a 'bike', not sure what the solution is. Manufacturer distribution, not via a 'distributor', would be ideal but distributors like QBP would howl about that.

Look at a road bike..top to bottom, saddle, seat post, bar, stem, headset, group, rims, tubes, tires, bottle cages, bar tape...all come from various manufacturers. The bike boys have tried to help this with Trek/Spec-Ed/C-dale/Giant branded stuff but if you aren't a trekgiantspec-edcannondale dealer..gets tough. Kona can't make Kona branded stuff.

What irks me is lazy bike shops. Those who fail to identify their target market and aggressively pursue that market..ignore the rest. Also those that think bigger is always better. Closely related to above.

Not hard to do bike retail but it can be difficult.

[JAllen]

Portland has a really great LBS scene that runs the gamut. Certain shops I don't/wouldn't go to based on what their specialties, but none come to mind for incompetence. At least that I've been to.

[Gummee]

Where I am, the guy that's 'the face of the store' is low on RAM and running an 8086 processor in a pentium world.

Great guy. Personable. Enthusiastic. Wants to make a 1300 sq ft shop 'into something.' ...just isn't the right guy for the job, but its what we have.

IOW things get missed, then he's gotta play catchup. Then more things get missed 'cause he's playing catchup. etc etc etc

Me? I run the back of the shop/mechanical stuff. I'll tell you that orders go in on Mondays unless its an emergency. If that's the case, then we can get it from QBP or J&B overnight (soon to be Hawley) ...and orders go in on Mondays and are here on Tues.

One solution that QBP already offers is a link to their catalog on your web page with retail prices (that the LBS sets) already listed. You can surf to your heart's content and it'll come to us. We haven't done that (see #1 above) but need to. Trek does the same thing with their catalog of stuff and bikes. ...both come with up sides and down sides that we won't get into in this thread.

Ya gotta embrace the electrons 'or else'

M

[Tickdoc]

It's a tough business, and a lot of work to maintain good service.

They can't compete with the internet, at least not all of the time.

Did you bring them donuts? I always do....or bagels....or beer.:beer:

[shovelhd]

I guess I'm fortunate to have a good Spec shop nearby who has been great to work with. Communication is very good. I expect them to have to order stuff for me and that they are going to group my order in with others to save on shipping. I make that clear to them that this is OK. If I'm in a rush I let them know.

[JAllen]

It's a tough business, and a lot of work to maintain good service.

They can't compete with the internet, at least not all of the time.

Did you bring them donuts? I always do....or bagels....or beer.:beer:

and how! Sometimes I go in and just chat with them for a bit. My mere presence is a gift. ;)

[Tickdoc]

and how! Sometimes I go in and just chat with them for a bit. My mere presence is a gift. ;)


Yes, and I love walking in and getting that "Norm!" greeting they give the regulars.

I used to buy internet only and shoot for only the best deal. They know I like campy and I know they don't stock it, but there is no love lost there. They make plenty off of me for what I do buy over the years, and more importantly, when I meet people who want to know where to go, that is where I always send them.

Love my shop.

[Formulasaab]

I worked at a LBS part-time this summer. The owner is a friend and he was helping me out during a hard time. He needed help too so it all worked out.

All I can say is that your experience isn't unique, but it isn't damning of the LBS in general. There are excellent ones out there and honestly, I'm spoiled for choice here in northern Delaware.

Do you not have other shops to go to?

[JAllen]

Yes, and I love walking in and getting that "Norm!" greeting they give the regulars.

I used to buy internet only and shoot for only the best deal. They know I like campy and I know they don't stock it, but there is no love lost there. They make plenty off of me for what I do buy over the years, and more importantly, when I meet people who want to know where to go, that is where I always send them.

Love my shop.

Yeah that's totally it! I think the endorsement is huge for any business. No matter how technology progresses, word of mouth is still king.

[benb]

I've had some real bad experiences in the last couple months at one of our big local shops. Really close to where I works which sucks, I'm mad enough I don't even want to use them for small stuff which means a lot more driving to get to a shop. (I do have another shop really close to my house which is small and they have good customer service.)

It mostly revolves around walking in and telling an employee you're looking for an expensive bike and they act like it's too much work to help you at all. They list a bike in stock and it's actually in "the warehouse" (meaning they really can call QBP and get one?) and they're totally unwilling to build the bike so you can see it in your size and/or test ride it, etc.. pretty hard to imagine actually buying a bike from a shop that behaves like that.

Listing bikes in particularly sizes on the website as in stock at a given price and then they don't have them or won't honor the price seems relatively common too.

Ordering stuff from shops seems to be a total waste of time.. huge markup, they don't want to help you, and it takes them way longer to get the product than it takes you to do it yourself. The only time I ever let a shop order a part or something for me is if it's something that you just can't get without a QBP account or something that is super obscure that only a dealer can get. (E.x. a derailleur hanger or some proprietary part where the manufacturer doesn't document the part enough for you to figure it out.)

I really, really, don't want to buy a whole bike online.. but the more I understand my fit parameters the more likely I am to do it, particularly if it's a relatively simple bike that has standard parts that I can buy and/or fix myself easily.

[rugbysecondrow]

It's a tough business, and a lot of work to maintain good service.

They can't compete with the internet, at least not all of the time.

Did you bring them donuts? I always do....or bagels....or beer.:beer:

So, I understand the idea. When have had loved one in the hospital, I took donuts to the nurses and that really seems to improve the attention they give you. Fair enough. There is no (or almost no) competition. It is the hospital.

When a LBS needs cajoling to do what should be regular business, I just don't like that. I know they are people, probably low paid, all obligatory statements aside, earn my damn business. I can order so much from Amazon prime, free shipping, free returns if it is wrong, no BS, attitude, donuts, no waiting 2 weeks for the parts.

The gist is, eCommerce has grown up, and it is fantastic in many respects. Unless what I buy has a service component, then I don't need to walk into any store. IF I have to though, I expect actual service, some added value.

[Len J]

It took me a while to find a good shop locally, for all the reasons above.

But I finally found one and they actually have a Campy mechanic. WOW. Anyway, I by small stuff from them, do a ride now and then, but really, they don't know me from Adam, I just don't need much and do my own wrenching.

A few months ago, I was hit from behind by a PU truck doing 50 and was pretty banged up, but needed to do all the crap for the insurance company. I also needed to pack and ship the bike to e-Richie to get an estimate of repairs. I dropped the Sachs off at the shop for an estimate from them, had them ship it and then handle the return, etc, etc. Now, they could have been difficult....not a regular customer, PIA work, time consuming, etc, etc....but instead, they have been wonderful. Flexible, conversational...making good recommendations as to how to deal with the damage to the 10 speed record bits. They made a crappy experience (the accident) into a chance to build a relationship.... I have come away very impressed.

It's the way a shop should run. And it wasn't just the head of the shop...it was 2 of the guys that work for him too.

They have clearly decided where and how they are going to compete. It can be done.

Len

[ftf]

Frankly, I don't really seem much need for LBSs anymore, everything is available online for a fraction of the cost, no snark included. In my experience the number of bike shops that don't give some kind of attitude are few and far between. So I'm supposed to give you more money for a worse experience, I think not, oh I think not. I only venture in to one when I need something right away, like an emergency tube or something, which now costs like 10 dollars at the lbs, so I now stock up on those even more than I used to as well. I guess some people like them? Don't see why. I guess if you are a total hamfist it makes sense, but even then most bike shop "mechanics" are seemingly pretty hamfisted as well.

I haven't visited a bike shop in over a year, don't see why I'd go today. However I've bought a new bike this year, new clothes, new everything, all online, thanks online for being here so I don't have to deal with the BS.

[Lewis Moon]

One of my chief pet peeves about LBS (besides know nothing staff, pedestrian inventory, all Gitrekalized, all the time....) is the concept of "we don't stock that but we can special order it for you".

News Flash: I can do that from the comfort of my own home, get it quicker and for less money.

I know that seems pretty callous, but it's a fact of modern retail. Bike shops have to learn to compete. When someone walks into an ice cream store, they're not going to hang around if the kid in the paper hat says "All we carry is vanilla, but we can special order that rocky road and have it here in two weeks".

[Tickdoc]

So, I understand the idea.

When a LBS needs cajoling to do what should be regular business, I just don't like that.

No, I don't think you do.

I don't do this to cajole, I do it because I like them. They work hard. The owner is genuinely a cool guy. He races, he supports local rides, and he is a good asset to our community. His workers race with him. They area also cool.

I gather they don't make much, but I'm sure he pays them as well as any other. My guy has three kids and a wife that doesn't work (by choice) It makes me happy to help them in any way I can.

The fact that it helps my "shop presence" is secondary.

[rugbysecondrow]

No, I don't think you do.

I don't do this to cajole, I do it because I like them. They work hard. The owner is genuinely a cool guy. He races, he supports local rides, and he is a good asset to our community. His workers race with him. They area also cool.

I gather they don't make much, but I'm sure he pays them as well as any other. My guy has three kids and a wife that doesn't work (by choice) It makes me happy to help them in any way I can.

The fact that it helps my "shop presence" is secondary.


Sure, but you aren't the first to say this, so my comment isn't directly related to you. It has been mentioned enough that it seems it is a standard practice. Many have suggested something similar to get better service. Giving friends gifts is one thing. Bribing is something else. To be very frank, it seems they should compete for my business, not me compete for their attention.




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[malcolm]

One of my chief pet peeves about LBS (besides know nothing staff, pedestrian inventory, all Gitrekalized, all the time....) is the concept of "we don't stock that but we can special order it for you".

News Flash: I can do that from the comfort of my own home, get it quicker and for less money.

I know that seems pretty callous, but it's a fact of modern retail. Bike shops have to learn to compete. When someone walks into an ice cream store, they're not going to hang around if the kid in the paper hat says "All we carry is vanilla, but we can special order that rocky road and have it here in two weeks".

This has been my experience as well. They never have what I want and may be able to order for twice as much and will take twice as long.
If you have any mechanical ability now with you tube/google you can do almost anything yourself. What you would spend on marked up parts you can buy nice tools.

I do buy tubes, and disposables from the local shop because I like the owner but in fairness to him he knows his market and it isn't me. He sells mostly mid range specilized and felt with the occasional high end big box bike. They do very good mechanic work and I've know the mechanic for years, but again by the time I pay for the parts and wait for them to come in and him to install I'm way over twice the time and price I could have done it for myself.

[weisan]

The last time I actually bought something from a bike shop was about 10 years ago...I still go in occasionally to look around, "touch" the bikes, if I happened to be passing by, other than that, I just don't bother because...

a) I can get or see everything online

b) I do all wrenching myself.

Every now and then I would wonder off into the bicycling section in REI...but that's about it.

[Tickdoc]

Sure, but you are the first to say this. Many have suggested something similar to get better service. Giving friends gifts is one thing. Bribing is something else. To be very frank, it seems they should compete for my business, not me compete for their attention.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

For me, it is a Golden rule thing.

In my business and in my life, it seems it pays to pay it back.

What is an extra $10 on a nice pair of tires?

What is a mechanic tutoring you (me) on how to glue them on worth? Tack on an extra $10 on a box of donuts and I'd say that is priceless.

I can't make the bribery connection there because it is giving and given freely.

I can watch youtube videos from all over the world for free on how to glue a tub, but to have someone walk you through it means a lot.

That's just me, but it serves me well.

[AngryScientist]

What is an extra $10 on a nice pair of tires?



yea right. i can get a set of veloflex corsas for $85 delivered, all day, any day. report back with what your LBS wants for a set please.

edit: i only say that to interject reality. for me it's fiscally irresponsible to pay nearly double for a set of tires i actually want to ride from a LBS as opposed to buying online.

[Lewis Moon]

This has been my experience as well. They never have what I want and may be able to order for twice as much and will take twice as long.
If you have any mechanical ability now with you tube/google you can do almost anything yourself. What you would spend on marked up parts you can buy nice tools.

I do buy tubes, and disposables from the local shop because I like the owner but in fairness to him he knows his market and it isn't me. He sells mostly mid range specilized and felt with the occasional high end big box bike. They do very good mechanic work and I've know the mechanic for years, but again by the time I pay for the parts and wait for them to come in and him to install I'm way over twice the time and price I could have done it for myself.


This is a really good point. As a guy, why should we expect a woman's clothing store like Ann Taylor to have what we want? We are not their market. And by deduction, they should not expect men to shop there.

[Tony T]

Dunno if I wanna bother giving any constructive feedback to the owner. At this point, feeling more like directing my business from a lot of the locals to online - without guilt.

I wouldn't say anything and only giving him business for minor items (i.e. tubes). This will be the best feedback you can give him.

[malcolm]

For me, it is a Golden rule thing.

In my business and in my life, it seems it pays to pay it back.

What is an extra $10 on a nice pair of tires?

What is a mechanic tutoring you (me) on how to glue them on worth? Tack on an extra $10 on a box of donuts and I'd say that is priceless.

I can't make the bribery connection there because it is giving and given freely.

I can watch youtube videos from all over the world for free on how to glue a tub, but to have someone walk you through it means a lot.

That's just me, but it serves me well.

I would be willing to bet not one mechanic in all the shops in my area has glued a tubbie in the past year or most likely in their life.

It's very market dependent. If you live in a very large area or a cycling mecca it's probably easy to find a nice shop that is worth the local bucks, but for most of us it's big box stores with marginal employees and if you are inclined to do it yourself it just makes sense.

On another buy local front I've been restoring an old land cruiser which has meant a lot to trips to the local napa store. Well I remembered a local independent parts/mechanic shop and thought hey why not check them out and keep the business local. Well the guy there was a complete asshat. I just said thanks and walked out.

[Tickdoc]

Sure, but you are the first to say this. Many have suggested something similar to get better service. Giving friends gifts is one thing. Bribing is something else. To be very frank, it seems they should compete for my business, not me compete for their attention.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

For me, it is a Golden rule thing.

In my business and in my life, it seems it pays to pay it back.

What is an extra $10 on a nice pair of tires?

What is a mechanic tutoring you (me) on how to glue them on worth? Tack on an extra $10 on a box of donuts and I'd say that is priceless.

I can't make the bribery connection there because it is giving and given freely.

I can watch youtube videos from all over the world for free on how to glue a tub, but to have someone walk you through it means a lot.

That's just me, but it serves me well.

[Lewis Moon]

For me, it is a Golden rule thing.

In my business and in my life, it seems it pays to pay it back.

What is an extra $10 on a nice pair of tires?

What is a mechanic tutoring you (me) on how to glue them on worth? Tack on an extra $10 on a box of donuts and I'd say that is priceless.

I can't make the bribery connection there because it is giving and given freely.

I can watch youtube videos from all over the world for free on how to glue a tub, but to have someone walk you through it means a lot.

That's just me, but it serves me well.

I would venture to say that the vast majority of LBS mechos couldn't give that class. There are shops I would go out of my way to patronize, and shops I wouldn't walk into if I had a 20 minute wait at a bus stop and they were right there.
Any more, most are the latter. I'm not their market and they shouldn't expect me to patronize them.

[oldpotatoe]

yea right. i can get a set of veloflex corsas for $85 delivered, all day, any day. report back with what your LBS wants for a set please.

edit: i only say that to interject reality. for me it's fiscally irresponsible to pay nearly double for a set of tires i actually want to ride from a LBS as opposed to buying online.

What's 'fiscally irresponsible' is the crappy bicycle 'stuff' distribution network worldwide that the manufacturers will not correct. I get the 'crappy bike shop' gig, but often the reason is the manufacturer's and their reluctance to cut into their sales to help support an IBD system. BUT if tomorrow, if all the IBDs were gone, would bicycle sales go up or down? Could bicycle sales exist with online sales only?

Some end users would be fine and dandy but the majority of those who ride bikes regularly, would find another form of leisure time activity or transportation.

[Formulasaab]

This bugs me...
(Some) People often say how much they like or want the "clubhouse" type environment to their local bike shop, and love it when (or want) the mechanics remember their name or bike.

Then they turn around and say they don't like the idea that donating a 6-pack or box of donuts to the shop occasionally, or even just being a loyal and patient customer, gets them better service.

Isn't that how a club works? Isn't loyalty and the occasional paying of dues how you gain "membership"?

" Sometimes you want to go
Where everybody knows your name,
and they're always glad you came. "

Here's the thing for me. I am DEEP into this bike thing. I don't JUST ride. I like to tinker. I enjoy restoring and building bikes. I race a little. I want to explore all forms of riding and all kinds of bikes. I love new and old. I realize that there is no way that the internet can act as another set of hands when something is stuck or doesn't fit the tools I have. Sometimes I want to touch the parts before I buy. Internet reviews are no substitute to trying something on or giving it a good pinch in the tread.

My local bike shop is indispensable if I want to continue to enjoy this hobby in the depth I wish. Knowing that, I count myself lucky to have one of the best shops in the country nearby and to call everyone who works there a friend.

Others may view bike riding differently. I'm sure there are lots of perfectly valid ways to enjoy it that are nearly opposite from how I do it. So, to be sure, YMMV. :beer:

[rugbysecondrow]

For me, it is a Golden rule thing.

In my business and in my life, it seems it pays to pay it back.

What is an extra $10 on a nice pair of tires?

What is a mechanic tutoring you (me) on how to glue them on worth? Tack on an extra $10 on a box of donuts and I'd say that is priceless.

I can't make the bribery connection there because it is giving and given freely.

I can watch youtube videos from all over the world for free on how to glue a tub, but to have someone walk you through it means a lot.

That's just me, but it serves me well.

What you are describing is charity towards a for-profit business, that is not the world I operate in. That is also not sustainable, the donut/beer system won't allow them to compete.

If they have shoes I can try on, get fitted, various helmets to test...that is value added. Often, they don't have my size (13), they don't stock bikes my size (60ish) they don't have the tires I want (can order them) or much else. So, what is the value to drive and even go into the store? I can get anything and more shipped to my door in less than 48 hours, maybe faster.

Anyway, I appreciate your thoughts. Some feel loyalty to their shops, like a club. I don't feel that way. I haven't been in a shop which made me feel loyalty. Most made me feel like they were doing me a huge favor by working on my bike.

[weisan]

Some end users would be fine and dandy but the majority of those who ride bikes regularly, would find another form of leisure time activity or transportation.

I agree with this statement. LBS plays an important role in our ecosystem. Bike shop owners need to continue to update their business model to keep up with the changes and stay relevant.

[oldpotatoe]

I agree with this statement. LBS plays an important role in our ecosystem. Bike shop owners need to continue to update their business model to keep up with the changes and stay relevant.

Too many don't. Even in the 'republic', a lot of bike shop owners/managers are either clueless, under trained or lazy.

What I would hate to be is US based mailorder..they are the ones getting hammered. Excel-$875 SR crankset, Ribble and others, about $600..which is wholesale to Excel and the USA based bike shops. Something is broken.

And I'm sure somebody will mention velomine..$650 for SR crankset..suspect owned by a US distributor. Buys from a manufacturer, adds margin, sells to consumer and bike shop. Same for PlanetCyclery($689)...

Yes, yes, on that kick again..

[Ken Robb]

I wonder: Are there many more choices now than 25 years ago in stems, bars,tires, and other parts/accessories? If so, does that make it more likely that a shop won't have the exact item we want in stock?
For instance, when I think about stems and all the variations in bar size, length, angles, colors, material now vs. my probably foggy memory when the vast majority of bikes used silver quill stems in various lengths,-17 degree angle, and the same bar diameter. Sure there were a few exceptions but most cyclists would be happy to choose from a shops in-stock items.
The bike business now reminds me of the planned obsolescence practiced by US auto manufacturers in the 1950s with annual "improvements". Oooh, your 1954 Oldsmobile has only 185 HP so you need to trade it for a 1955 model with 202 HP and different chrome trim so people won't think you're driving an out-dated vehicle. So now we have components with changing colors and trim but no real improvement in performance. This may increase sales for manufacturers if it induces riders to "upgrade" but it causes grief to retailers who carried a big stock of the now-obsolete parts. They have to discount the old items to move them out so they may lose $$ by having a big inventory of parts to provide walk-in customers a wide choice.
It is a big problem for an LBS and I surely don't have the solution.

[Lewis Moon]

Perhaps O.P. and other bike shop folks can chime in here:
Is it possible to buy an "instant bike shop" (just add water)? It seems that a lot of shops that go into new retail spaces fit this model. It's like someone decided they wanted to get into the bike biz and bought an "off the shelf" bike shop from one of the big three. I've seen a lot of shops like this. They're slick, antiseptic and ghastly.

[oldpotatoe]

Perhaps O.P. and other bike shop folks can chime in here:
Is it possible to buy an "instant bike shop" (just add water)? It seems that a lot of shops that go into new retail spaces fit this model. It's like someone decided they wanted to get into the bike biz and bought an "off the shelf" bike shop from one of the big three. I've seen a lot of shops like this. They're slick, antiseptic and ghastly.

Yes, the big boys with 'concept stores' do this all the time. More common with new places rather than existing that morph into a concept store.

http://boulder.elevationcycles.com/

[biker72]

Perhaps O.P. and other bike shop folks can chime in here:
Is it possible to buy an "instant bike shop" (just add water)? It seems that a lot of shops that go into new retail spaces fit this model. It's like someone decided they wanted to get into the bike biz and bought an "off the shelf" bike shop from one of the big three. I've seen a lot of shops like this. They're slick, antiseptic and ghastly.

Trek does for sure. I talked to our Trek rep. about this. My old home town in Iowa has one. Fairly small town with a new store and nothing but Trek/Bontrager products.

[Gummee]

Perhaps O.P. and other bike shop folks can chime in here:
Is it possible to buy an "instant bike shop" (just add water)? It seems that a lot of shops that go into new retail spaces fit this model. It's like someone decided they wanted to get into the bike biz and bought an "off the shelf" bike shop from one of the big three. I've seen a lot of shops like this. They're slick, antiseptic and ghastly.

Upside to the concept/factory store: lots of support from said company. ...but ALL you're carrying is that company's goods. No 'extracurricular' stuff from a competing brand. Shoes? Bontrager, Bontrager or Bontrager. Pick one

M

[Lewis Moon]

Trek does for sure. I talked to our Trek rep. about this. My old home town in Iowa has one. Fairly small town with a new store and nothing but Trek/Bontrager products.

I believe Specialized does this too. I walked into DNA Cycles in Mesa (right next to my dentist) and I was floored by just how generic and uninviting it was.
My first real shop was Cosmic Cycles in Flagstaff, when it was owned by Elson Miles and resided in an old house on San Francisco Street. Post monsoon ride showers, late night wrenching while listening to bluegrass with a doob on the bench next to the cone wrenches. God I miss that.

[malcolm]

The big box "concept stores" are what most people want and I'm sure not all do a good job but for those people in their market I suspect they do just fine and without such stores I suspect bicycling would suffer. Most folks are not interested in other aspects of the sport beyond riding. Lets face it if you are on this site more than once in a while you either are obsessed or have been obsessed in the past. The folks here are not your typical local bike shop customer at least not in most markets. Most markets do not have a shop for us. Those that do are lucky.

[Veloo]

I'd say we support the smaller independent shops more than the average (Canadian) household. And I'm not just talking bike shops.
And I'd say I do my due diligence as well - checking the websites, calling to confirm.

So it really bugs me to make the trek to the shop to be told that the website or person on the phone had tit wrong, or they just can't locate the 3 that show in stock in the system, or they give me a different price from what I've been told.

I got my Athena gruppo from Velomine cuz Ben was great to deal with and the order went bang-bang-bang done!
The local Campy shop was all loosey goosey with availability and pricing over the phone.

If they are quick to toss out the "not in stock but we can get it" line then I don't have much patience when I find out the order hasn't been placed with the disty after 2 weeks. I was the only one in the shop at the time so they were NOT busy.
Not likely this shop will get a 3rd chance with me but I will ID some in the GTA that I've been happy with:
- Urbane - almost always has stock for my odd requests and they are on top of things
- Wheels of Bloor - Peter is great to deal with
- Curbside - good service and nice folks

So I'd be curious to hear from other GTA forumites if they see the same pattern.

[Lovic]

Veloo -> "This isn't the first time I've called a distributor to get the real scoop on one of my Toronto LBS orders."

What was the response of the bike shop / owner after the part arrived?

[saab2000]

A few years ago a shop tried to sell me one of those $.99 rubber rims strips you'd find on a Walmart bike. This was for a higher level, tubeless ready rim that I was riding with clinchers. There was no sense of irony or humor either. He (the owner) simply had no idea about higher end rims strips or tubeless rims.

That was kind of the final straw.

I place orders sometimes but only when I know EXACTLY what I want and we basically create the order together with the QBP catalog and get specific parts numbers written down.

Being 'local' is no longer enough to get my business. Not even close. You've got to know your stuff, at least a bit.

[Veloo]

The stuff hasn't arrived yet. Another week or so since we missed the disty's cutoff day/ time.
The person who I spoke to at the shop did leave a voice msg on my phone saying "I saw you already touched base with the disty and I guess we'll see you when your stuff comes in".

The first time around was with a different shop. They took my deposit for some shoes. They later said it wasn't available. I asked about a refund on the deposit and the kid said "They don't really do that". Okaaaayy... So I called the disty and found out they didn't put in the order properly.
That time was just a (dumb) kid not know what the hell he was saying or doing. This time it's folks that have been in bike retail for a long time. I didn't order anything unique, common items they carry but in different colour.
I'm thinking if you can't handle my $300 order, why am I going to do $3000+ with you in the future?

Veloo -> "This isn't the first time I've called a distributor to get the real scoop on one of my Toronto LBS orders."

What was the response of the bike shop / owner after the part arrived?

[Likes2ridefar]

My experience today in Greenwich, ct was great. Never been there before and had a little one in a stroller. They saw this and ran to open the door. Then offered me some water or coffee.

Told them what I needed (assos fall and winter gear) and they brought it all out in a few sizes to try on.

Killed my credit card but enjoyed the coffee and new assos...it's gotten quite a bit better than the last set I bought a number of years ago that finally is looking pretty shabby.

[dancinkozmo]

I'd say we support the smaller independent shops more than the average (Canadian) household. And I'm not just talking bike shops.
And I'd say I do my due diligence as well - checking the websites, calling to confirm.

So it really bugs me to make the trek to the shop to be told that the website or person on the phone had tit wrong, or they just can't locate the 3 that show in stock in the system, or they give me a different price from what I've been told.

I got my Athena gruppo from Velomine cuz Ben was great to deal with and the order went bang-bang-bang done!
The local Campy shop was all loosey goosey with availability and pricing over the phone.

If they are quick to toss out the "not in stock but we can get it" line then I don't have much patience when I find out the order hasn't been placed with the disty after 2 weeks. I was the only one in the shop at the time so they were NOT busy.
Not likely this shop will get a 3rd chance with me but I will ID some in the GTA that I've been happy with:
- Urbane - almost always has stock for my odd requests and they are on top of things
- Wheels of Bloor - Peter is great to deal with
- Curbside - good service and nice folks

So I'd be curious to hear from other GTA forumites if they see the same pattern.

i would add sweet petes , liberty cyclery and hoopdriver to your list.

[mhespenheide]

Between Paceline, Radavist, Red Kite Prayer, etc., I probably read about bicycles about an hour a day. (I know, I've got a problem...) I'm 42, and I've been cycling seriously since I was in high school. I read Bicycle Guide religiously when it was being published, and I've read Bicycling long enough to see their cycle of articles repeat multiple times. I've ridden steel, aluminum, titanium, and carbon. And I'm far from the most knowledgable person on this board -- I don't even know if I'm at the median.

There is no way that someone hired near minimum wage to sell at an LBS is going to have anywhere near that kind of knowledge base. Leaving alone the issue of prices, I'm tired of heading into a random store and knowing more than the salespeople. I'm not going to go hang out there.

I've seen the same thing happen (for me) in outdoors shops for backpacking and climbing, LBS's for cycling, and camera stores for photography. Outside of certain urban centers, retail sucks. If you have a good shop, patronize it. But a good shop is damn hard to find most of the time.

[summilux]

Here in Ottawa, special ordering anything is a pain from most stores. Last time I tried that was for something Campagnolo and they told me that they only order from Marinoni monthly and I would have to wait that long. This was a Campy Pro store!

I'll only deal with one LBS, Phat Moose. They are great if you are ever in town. What separates them from the others is that they are an owner operated place so they really try harder. Maybe Blacksmith would be a good local place?

[Veloo]

Agree about Sweet Pete's and Liberty. Both good. Bought my Helix from Ed. I haven't been to Hoopdrivers yet.
Online, Excel and Prendas have been really good too.

And I have had the same experiences as mhespenheide with MEC service going downhill and Henry's with a bit of hipster Queen St attitude.

I wish shop owners and managers would train their junior staff to be more humble and instill a problem solving mentality vs the slick salesman throwing BS around.

[Tickdoc]

Trek does for sure. I talked to our Trek rep. about this. My old home town in Iowa has one. Fairly small town with a new store and nothing but Trek/Bontrager products.

This was the first thought that came to mind. We have a trek store here that an existing bike store added as a second location trek only store in new space.

[gdw]

I needed to replace a sliding dropout on a new frame and contacted the manufacturer. They have a policy of not dealing directly with the owners of their products and provided a list of local shops that could order it. I contacted the shops and received quotes of $40-60 dollars and an estimated delivery time of 7-10 days. I purchased the replacement from Paragon Machine Works for $15 plus $5 shipping and received it two days later..... tell me again why I should support the local bike shops?

[Tickdoc]

What you are describing is charity towards a for-profit business, that is not the world I operate in. That is also not sustainable, the donut/beer system won't allow them to compete.

If they have shoes I can try on, get fitted, various helmets to test...that is value added. Often, they don't have my size (13), they don't stock bikes my size (60ish) they don't have the tires I want (can order them) or much else. So, what is the value to drive and even go into the store? I can get anything and more shipped to my door in less than 48 hours, maybe faster.

Anyway, I appreciate your thoughts. Some feel loyalty to their shops, like a club. I don't feel that way. I haven't been in a shop which made me feel loyalty. Most made me feel like they were doing me a huge favor by working on my bike.
I understand. My store is succeeding, but the point I guess I want to make is they work at it. They weren't my friends when I was casually shopping ( I hit all the bike shops when I knew I was ready to buy local). They became my friends because they took a great interest in me being happy with what I bought, even though the bike I chose was on close out. It goes beyond that and we are friends now. I still go to other bike shops, just not for repair, and only after I have shopped at mine first. They know they are not the only game in town.

In less than a week I get to place a multi bike order with them for Christmas presents for the needy.

They are acting as supplier for me and doing any basic asssembly wrenching for free, and giving me a big discount because they know it is for Christmas presents.

I'll advertise for them to let everyone know their generosity, but they are doing it as an act of kindness.

It's just a good relationship.

[rugbysecondrow]

I understand. My store is succeeding, but the point I guess I want to make is they work at it. They weren't my friends when I was casually shopping ( I hit all the bike shops when I knew I was ready to buy local). They became my friends because they took a great interest in me being happy with what I bought, even though the bike I chose was on close out. It goes beyond that and we are friends now. I still go to other bike shops, just not for repair, and only after I have shopped at mine first. They know they are not the only game in town.

In less than a week I get to place a multi bike order with them for Christmas presents for the needy.

They are acting as supplier for me and doing any basic asssembly wrenching for free, and giving me a big discount because they know it is for Christmas presents.

I'll advertise for them to let everyone know their generosity, but they are doing it as an act of kindness.

It's just a good relationship.

That is awesome. I wish there were more like that.

:beer:

[Formulasaab]

I needed to replace a sliding dropout on a new frame and contacted the manufacturer. They have a policy of not dealing directly with the owners of their products and provided a list of local shops that could order it. I contacted the shops and received quotes of $40-60 dollars and an estimated delivery time of 7-10 days. I purchased the replacement from Paragon Machine Works for $15 plus $5 shipping and received it two days later..... tell me again why I should support the local bike shops?

I'm not going to convince anyone of anything here. But that doesn't stop me trying (usually). My feelings on the matter are obvious to anyone sees that I updated my signature last week. ;)

But in this case I am curious.
You said it was a new frame. Why did you need to replace the dropout?

[gdw]

I wanted a post mount dropout instead of the ISO it came with.

[gdw]

The driveside insert was also damaged in shipping. I was able to fix it but the seller refunded me $30, his cost for a replacement set - both sides- so I knew how much to expect to pay before contacting the shops.

[Formulasaab]

The driveside insert was damaged in shipping.

Did you buy the frame from the bike shop? If so, they would be able to get you one from the manufacturer under warranty.

I worked at a shop over the summer and we'd unbox damaged bikes all the time. The manufacturer always replaced the damaged part (or made up for it some other way).

[Red Tornado]

There are two shops in my town. First is a Spec/Trek house, 2nd has Cannondale, Felt, Giant, Cervelo & various city/townie bikes.

If I need an item I think either shop has, I will attempt to get it there first. Been cycling for 24 years so in most situations I have put some thought into the purchase and/or researched it, and know exactly what I want. If they have the item, or what I deem a reasonable substitute (typically an alternate brand), I'll buy local. Don't mind coughing up a little extra. If they do not have the item or a reasonable substitute, I will politely thank them for their assistance and proceed to order from an Internet seller. If it's an item that has to be ordered, I'd just as soon do it from home where I can save a little and have a choice of delivery time. Our family is on a budget and my disposable income is pretty limited, so not going to drop extra cash if I don't have to.

In both shops I have run across the few employees that probably know less than I've forgotten. The ones I've dealt with are smart enough to get someone who knows more to help me out.

Do most of my own wrenching, so I don't have much experience with mechanics. I do know only one shop has what I call a "real" mechanic. Most guys around here only know Shimano & SRAM. Say "Campagnolo" and they get the "deer in the headlights" look.

[benb]

One thing you gotta give the shops credit for is convenience of picking up something like tubes.

I can walk into any one of the 3-4 LBSes around me with total confidence that just about any size tube I want they'll have at least one option on the shelf.

You actually can't say that about some of the online shops. They have very thin offerings for larger size tubes in 700c and they never carry stuff like kids tubes.

Ignoring the Forte branded stuff Performance has.. they might have a bunch of sizes but we bought a bunch of their tubes once and they were so bad we didn't even use them all. Lots of them gave up the ghost within a day of installation. I've never seen that with any other type of tube.

[old fat man]

My experience today in Greenwich, ct was great. Never been there before and had a little one in a stroller. They saw this and ran to open the door. Then offered me some water or coffee.

Told them what I needed (assos fall and winter gear) and they brought it all out in a few sizes to try on.

Killed my credit card but enjoyed the coffee and new assos...it's gotten quite a bit better than the last set I bought a number of years ago that finally is looking pretty shabby.

This example is as far from reality and the rest of North America as possible.

[makoti]

Between Paceline, Radavist, Red Kite Prayer, etc., I probably read about bicycles about an hour a day. (I know, I've got a problem...) I'm 42, and I've been cycling seriously since I was in high school. I read Bicycle Guide religiously when it was being published, and I've read Bicycling long enough to see their cycle of articles repeat multiple times. I've ridden steel, aluminum, titanium, and carbon. And I'm far from the most knowledgable person on this board -- I don't even know if I'm at the median.

There is no way that someone hired near minimum wage to sell at an LBS is going to have anywhere near that kind of knowledge base. Leaving alone the issue of prices, I'm tired of heading into a random store and knowing more than the salespeople. I'm not going to go hang out there.

I've seen the same thing happen (for me) in outdoors shops for backpacking and climbing, LBS's for cycling, and camera stores for photography. Outside of certain urban centers, retail sucks. If you have a good shop, patronize it. But a good shop is damn hard to find most of the time.

Then I need intervention. ;)
I'm with ya. It's painful to go in and educate sales people on what they sell. The main (only?) reason I go to the shop I do is because I used to work with and trust the mechanic. That's it. I try to buy all my little stuff from them, but don't even bother for stuff like clothing or shoes. Of course, I imagine it could be a chicken/egg thing: We don't buy clothing because they don't stock the good stuff because we don't buy clothing...

[Zoodles]

Seems like a lot of good shops in TO...depending on who is working that day.

Gears, dukes, and la bici almost always has the right racing stuff but higher prices, hoop driver and urbane is awesome for that style. I am forgetting some but I find myself at mec or online more often than not.

[Joxster]

Have a chat with the owner and raise the points with him, he may not see it happening from the inside and he can do something about it

[KF9YR]

I believe Specialized does this too. I walked into DNA Cycles in Mesa (right next to my dentist) and I was floored by just how generic and uninviting it was.
My first real shop was Cosmic Cycles in Flagstaff, when it was owned by Elson Miles and resided in an old house on San Francisco Street. Post monsoon ride showers, late night wrenching while listening to bluegrass with a doob on the bench next to the cone wrenches. God I miss that.


Well the Specialized truck pulled up to the Scottsdale DNA a few days ago and hauled off all the bikes... As far as I've heard they are closed.

Swiss American is also closing (or may be closed by now) it was run by a family and I know quite a few people that really had good things to say about them.

Faster announced they will be selling off their bikes and stick with their fitting / training etc business (where else could you find a wind tunnel in a shop).

My LBS is owned by someone that has been in the business for many years. I know they care about their customers and their bikes. They coach the high school mountain bike team for no compensation.

The Internet / bike manufacturer / QBP system has made it very difficult for shops to stay in business (especially in an area with high rents). The playing field isn't level.

I ordered my last frame from Eriksen and all the components from my LBS. I know I paid more for the components than I would have from a UK Internet site but I couldn't take my finished bike there and have everyone ooh and aah over it.

The Internet sites don't spend 5 months a year riding / coaching my daughter / tape her sore knees / camp at the course for 5 race weekends either.

There are a lot of really dedicated LBS owners and employees it just takes a little searching/talking to find them.

[Ti Designs]

If you're gonna compare an LBS to an on-line seller, they're gonna fall short. If nobody at the LBS knows any more than you do, they have nothing to offer that the on-line sellers don't. So, other than getting a tube when you need it (assuming the LBS is open) the real question is what value does the LBS add?

For me, the LBS offers the ability to see the product. On-line sellers don't show products, most of them show the same pictures, use the same descriptions - they feed you the crap their marketing department came up with. Every bike is the best in the world, every part is of the highest quality, until you see it for yourself...

The down side I've seen as of late in the LBS is the staff. I'm starting to think LBS stands for Lotta Bull $hit. Every bike shop dude is an expert on every bike related subject 'cause they're the bike shop dude - expertise by title. And if that doesn't work, they make things up. This isn't just about the bike industry, but that's where I work, so that's what I see the most of. Just once I would like to see a salesman be put to the test. The next time a car salesman tells you how well a car handles, bring them to an autocross and ask them to show you. When the guy at the bike shop tells you the gearing is perfect for a known ride, invite them to come.

[jzisk]

I'm lucky. Here in Ithaca we have 2 superb LBS's. Not only are several of the mechanics quite on top of current parts and practices, but both shops are much involved in local rides and charities. That last is the main reason I give them some business-- but they often do bot stock what I want, and the price difference versus on-line is sometimes awful. So I give them some business, and lot's of positive word of mouth...

[Black Dog]

The stuff hasn't arrived yet. Another week or so since we missed the disty's cutoff day/ time.
The person who I spoke to at the shop did leave a voice msg on my phone saying "I saw you already touched base with the disty and I guess we'll see you when your stuff comes in".

The first time around was with a different shop. They took my deposit for some shoes. They later said it wasn't available. I asked about a refund on the deposit and the kid said "They don't really do that". Okaaaayy... So I called the disty and found out they didn't put in the order properly.
That time was just a (dumb) kid not know what the hell he was saying or doing. This time it's folks that have been in bike retail for a long time. I didn't order anything unique, common items they carry but in different colour.
I'm thinking if you can't handle my $300 order, why am I going to do $3000+ with you in the future?

True. Are you, by any chance, talking about LA Bicicletta? I have had some serious attitude from them a few times and some great service some other times. Hit or miss. If you want a great shop try Cyclepath Oakville. Joe and John, the owners have been in the biz since the early 80's and they really know their stuff and always make customers happy.

[Veloo]

Hey Black Dog.
La Bici is not the shop in question with my order right now but they have been inconsistent with pricing and service level lately.

I'm seeing how lucky I am with the feedback on this thread to have such a large number of shops to choose from in a big city but I still don't care for any attitude, (attempted) snow jobs and simple incompetence.

[dgauthier]

Your LBS sucks, but this is also a Canadian thing.

As a Canadian now living in the U.S., I definitely notice that Americans have more "fire in the belly" when it comes to customer service. There are good and bad, but the really good American retailers are just unbeatable forces of nature. Canadians retailers in general just seem more myopic and parochial -- i.e.: clueless.

I'm sure the OP is writing because he really really wants to buy locally, but now he feels like a fool to do it. So just change shops. Toronto is a big place, somebody's got to be good. But don't feel bad if you'd rather order on-line, just because the experience is superior. Give your money to the vendors who please you.