Article on why people hate bicyclists. [Archive]

Ken Robb

10-29-2015, 05:54 PM

Observations on my personal experience: I occasionally get yelled at/flipped off when I am riding one of my racier-looking bikes in lycra shorts and cycling jerseys. (I don't own any replica team race kit).

When riding a touring/utilitarian bike in hiking shorts and a tee shirt drivers are generally more considerate and have NEVER yelled at me or flipped me off.

I assume that when I look like a commuter/tourist drivers assume that I am just trying to get somewhere on my bike as they are doing in their cars but a racy bike and lycra makes them think I am just playing in the street. Riding in a big group confirms their negative suspicions.

A rider's appearance shouldn't affect how much respect and consideration he gets from motorists but in my experience it surely does.

dustyrider

10-29-2015, 06:11 PM

So groups of people are getting paid to produce studies that suggest that motorists, cyclists and pedestrians don't follow the rules all of the time...staggering! I could have told them that without spending a dime.

Dead Man

10-29-2015, 06:25 PM

Yea... I'm over it.

I love riding my bike, and I've found I love it even more when I'm not thinking about how much my fellow road user hates me for the measly 1'x5' patch of road I occupy.

Used to care about this stuff; don't care about this stuff.

bcroslin

10-29-2015, 06:34 PM

benb

10-29-2015, 07:07 PM

Almost all of the time I follow the guidelines laid out in Effective Cycling by John Forrester. I read that book after about my first serious season.

I have almost never, ever, had drivers yell at me or anything like that since I started following those behavior guidelines. And I regularly cycle on 4 lane roads and take lefts across them and all kinds of those things that are the sterotypical thing people expect drivers to yell at them for.

I definitely occasionally don't unclip at a stop sign but I'm pretty far toward "follow the rules of the road" on the cycling spectrum.

Louis

10-29-2015, 07:20 PM

They hate us because we're beautiful.

mg2ride

10-29-2015, 09:16 PM

[QUOTE=bcroslin;1850817]Screenshot from the ride tonight. We're in the bike lane but starting to transition out into the lane because the bike lane ends and this guy decides to buzz us AND roll coal. Two weeks ago I watched 2 friends get hit by a car that turned in front of the group because the driver was careless. One of those friends stopped breathing and will need heart surgery to repair his aorta. That's after the collapsed lung, broken collar bones and severe concussion heal.

I don't give a flying f!$* what motorists think of cyclists. I'm tired of playing the false equivalency game.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=1697909389&stc=1&d=1446164993

THIS is why they hate us!

Kirk007

10-29-2015, 09:24 PM

Can you define "this"? What is the cyclist doing "wrong"?

txcid05

10-29-2015, 09:35 PM

Screenshot from the ride tonight. We're in the bike lane but starting to transition out into the lane because the bike lane ends and this guy decides to buzz us AND roll coal. Two weeks ago I watched 2 friends get hit by a car that turned in front of the group because the driver was careless. One of those friends stopped breathing and will need heart surgery to repair his aorta. That's after the collapsed lung, broken collar bones and severe concussion heal.

I don't give a flying f!$* what motorists think of cyclists. I'm tired of playing the false equivalency game.

I live in the country, drive a diesel truck (oddly the same color and model year), sell diesel trucks, and am a cyclist. I feel the same damn way, jackasses roll coal, honk, holler stupidity out of their windows, it's never ending. I've gotten to a point where I have to ignore it otherwise it would make me crazy. It's safety that's most critical, and seemingly becoming more dangerous down here. :mad:

rustychisel

10-29-2015, 09:36 PM

THIS is why they hate us!

No it's not. Emphatically not. They were haters or uncaring long before he came along.

Louis' perception is much nearer the mark. It's idealised envy and aggressive tendencies, which is why they're so damn brave inside their 2 1/2 tons of steel cage.

buldogge

10-29-2015, 09:41 PM

Tony

10-29-2015, 09:48 PM

^^^I have no idea if the guy in the truck did something else...but...if that picture is the example of the "situation", well, that is everyday driving/passing/co-existence in an urban riding setting.

Basically, not sure what I'm looking at there.

Same, I can't see whats wrong in that picture? The truck seems far enough away from the cyclist?

cinema

10-29-2015, 09:50 PM

That was a decent article. And some interesting comments at the bottom. I really can't remember the last time I was that impressed with user commentary.

This one stands out: "I also find that with so little biking infrastructure, and so many inattentive drivers, I've developed a certain degree of fatalism about urban biking. A serious accident feels almost inevitable, and in my head I'm always assessing whether a given driver is "the one who kills me". With that kind of existential peril, the threat of a minor traffic ticket is trivial - whereas most drivers have every expectation of safety and so a moving violation is comparatively much more serious for them."

cmg

10-29-2015, 10:30 PM

yea, i don't follow the rules of the road when doing a solo ride, barely follow the rules with a group either. in my mind i'm getting out of the driver's way when i run the lights.

unterhausen

10-29-2015, 11:05 PM

Same, I can't see whats wrong in that picture? The truck seems far enough away from the cyclist?

this is the problem with cameras, the truck is within inches. And it's an illegal pass in Pennsylvania anyway, on an open road for no reason other than to express aggression

gdw

10-29-2015, 11:15 PM

The truck is more than 3 feet away so it is a legal pass in most states. What is the legal distance in FL and PA?

mg2ride

10-30-2015, 04:38 AM

this is the problem with cameras, the truck is within inches. And it's an illegal pass in Pennsylvania anyway, on an open road for no reason other than to express aggression

It's illegal to pass a cyclist that is riding in a bike lane?

BumbleBeeDave

10-30-2015, 05:01 AM

. . . I've never seen more obviously angry, impatient drivers on the road than now. I could recount a long list of incidents, but suffice it to say there are little things I see drivers do on the road all the time that reveal their attitude that their getting where they are going five seconds faster is more important than anything anybody else is doing out here.

Or they are angry about one of a million other frustrating things in our society today--a society where it's implicit that actually expressing any anger is forbidden.

No matter what I do, I'm pretty sure that my mere presence pushes a button for many drivers because it reminds them of various things or characteristics they don't have . . .

The free time to ride
The self-discipline to get out there
The fitness to do it
The appearance of fitness--I'm not obviously overweight
The money to buy the equipment
The mere freedom to do it if I want to

There's a lot of angry, passive-aggressive people out there who feel I would be a convenient target because they express their anger and get away with it. They figure they can somehow "get even" and nobody will know . . . not their family or their boss or friends. They can do it and just drive away and get away with it. No accountability. Shaving me close or bullying me out of their way is their little private chance to say "Ha! Gotcha!" to the world.

Combine that with the relative ignorance of any driver who's never been in traffic themselves on a bike about what it's really like and you get a dangerous mix.

I figure there's not much I can do except be especially alert and ride defensively, so that's what i do.

BBD

victoryfactory

10-30-2015, 05:09 AM

yea, i don't follow the rules of the road when doing a solo ride, barely follow the rules with a group either. in my mind i'm getting out of the driver's way when i run the lights.

This is my opinion too. When I "Run" a stop sign it's a conscious decision based on safety, not carelessness. If I judge the situation requires a full stop, I do so.
My behavior on the bike is strictly dictated by what will cause the least amount of confusion for and reaction from the other traffic.
Unfortunately, traffic enforcers and the public can't know that's what I'm doing so I may appear to be careless. Nothing could be farther from the truth.
Also its another reason why I ride solo.

VF

oldpotatoe

10-30-2015, 05:38 AM

It's illegal to pass a cyclist that is riding in a bike lane?

If there is a bike lane or shoulder, I never ride to the left, more to the center-right. I get dusted off fairly frequently, comes with the territory. Few do it on purpose, but some do, most are just crappy drivers.

I think ya just gotta be defensive. Expect them to not see you, do stupid things around you. Not gonna use my pudgy pink body to try to 'make a point' to some driver. As in 'take the lane' type crapp. IMHO. blah. blah.

'Blah' because as long as their are cars/trucks/busses/etc, and we ride in their arena, there is going to be conflict. As to what BBDave said above.I think most people are pretty stressed in the US right now, have been for a while.

simonov

10-30-2015, 05:38 AM

The truck is more than 3 feet away so it is a legal pass in most states. What is the legal distance in FL and PA?

It's 3 feet in FL. The problem is that 1) most people don't know it's the law and will argue with me vehemently that I'm breaking the law by not being on the sidewalk OR 2) people know it's the law but don't care OR 3) people know it's the law but have no clue how much room it actually takes to make a 3 foot pass.

My guess is the camera is playing tricks in that photo and if the cyclist could reach to the left and touch the truck, it's too close. The bigger issue is that law aside, what's wrong with people that they feel risking someone's life is less important than expressing their view about who should be on the road. If someone purposely didn't stop for a jaywalker and plowed them down wouldn't that make them a psychopath? Buzzing a cyclist because you think they don't have a place on the road, whether or not they actually do, isn't too far off on the crazy meter.

velomonkey

10-30-2015, 05:56 AM

I have nothing to add that hasn't already been said before except . . . . . .

Bradley Wiggins was knighted for riding a bike.

bcroslin

10-30-2015, 06:47 AM

^^^I have no idea if the guy in the truck did something else...but...if that picture is the example of the "situation", well, that is everyday driving/passing/co-existence in an urban riding setting.

Basically, not sure what I'm looking at there.

Don't read me wrong...I deal with asshats on the road almost everyday...whether malicious, inattentive, or simply stupid.

-Mark in St. Louis

Because of the wide angle of the go pro the truck looks further away than he was. He passed us close enough that I'm surprised his mirror didn't hit someone. He was also doing 50 so he came out of nowhere. And rolling coal.

Here's the video (https://youtu.be/1QiZee48nJM) - see for yourself (and please excuse my cursing)

bcroslin

10-30-2015, 06:49 AM

The truck is more than 3 feet away so it is a legal pass in most states. What is the legal distance in FL and PA?

3 feet and he was closer than 3 feet.

JAllen

10-30-2015, 06:55 AM

Because of the wide angle of the go pro the truck looks further away than he was. He passed us close enough that I'm surprised his mirror didn't hit someone. He was also doing 50 so he came out of nowhere. And rolling coal.

Yeah I was going to say...

Sometimes it's in the way they pass, not necessarily the proximity.

siminov, don't bother trying to argue with the mentally insufficient. You'll never win when they know that they are correct.

benb

10-30-2015, 07:02 AM

I think ya just gotta be defensive. Expect them to not see you, do stupid things around you. Not gonna use my pudgy pink body to try to 'make a point' to some driver. As in 'take the lane' type crapp. IMHO. blah. blah.

IME the "take the lane" crap makes them harass you less, not more, when you do it correctly.

But some of this is actually following the rules when you take the lane. Not taking the lane and running the light, taking the lane and waiting your turn just like the car drivers do. If you take the lane while breaking the law it just pisses them off even more. And you don't take the lane unless you need to for safety reasons and/or you are not impeding traffic. Not just "to assert your rights."

zap

10-30-2015, 07:09 AM

New national law.....before one gets to renew a DL, mandatory cycling class and a requirement to ride a bicycle on a street next to a DMV office.

Lycra.....very much optional.

Davist

10-30-2015, 07:51 AM

The truck is more than 3 feet away so it is a legal pass in most states. What is the legal distance in FL and PA?

In PA it's 4 feet.

I was recently in a similar situation, VERY close pickup truck, I was going about 25+ and he was going ~45 or so, no traffic in other direction. I caught him at the stoplight, asked why he didn't move over as the law says 4 feet, he said it's illegal to cross the yellow line. I said then use the brakes then. He said he's in a hurry. I said, we're at the same stop light at the same time, how did this slow you down...

simonov

10-30-2015, 07:52 AM

siminov, don't bother trying to argue with the mentally insufficient. You'll never win when they know that they are correct.

Yeah, you're right. Just can't help myself sometimes. I once had an argument with someone who buzzed me and then stopped to yell at me. We were stopped directly next to a "Bike may use full lane" sign and a marked sharrow symbol on the road and he stuck to his guns that I had no right to use the road. Pretty hard to win against that level of ignorance.

shovelhd

10-30-2015, 08:08 AM

I think BBD has a reasonable take on it.

During the week I have no choice but to ride during the evening rush hour or inside on the trainer, so I see a lot of this pent up anger. Yesterday, an unusually beautiful and warm late October day, I was riding on a freshly paved rural road that bisects a farm, but it is an East-West cut through road to the next town and thus gets a lot of commuter traffic. I'm doing 25mph or so when this full sized pickup passes me slowly leaving less than a two foot gap, probably closer. There was an incoming car, but I did not notice the speed. I gave him my hand wave and wound up stopping next to him at the stop sign up the road. I asked him why it was necessary that he passed me so closely. He said that the oncoming car was going so fast that by the time he was next to me he felt that it was safer to complete the pass than hit the brakes and try and tuck back in behind me. I have him the benefit of the doubt and thanked him for his consideration. No yelling, no confrontation, and we both left with a mutual understanding.

I suppose the take the laners think I should have blocked his pass when I saw the oncoming car.

JAllen

10-30-2015, 08:12 AM

Yeah, you're right. Just can't help myself sometimes. I once had an argument with someone who buzzed me and then stopped to yell at me. We were stopped directly next to a "Bike may use full lane" sign and a marked sharrow symbol on the road and he stuck to his guns that I had no right to use the road. Pretty hard to win against that level of ignorance.

Totally impossible to win against that level of ignorance. I'm pretty poor at taking my own advice.I tend to road rage really hard when it comes to these encounters.

unterhausen

10-30-2015, 08:17 AM

In PA it's 4 feet.

I was recently in a similar situation, VERY close pickup truck, I was going about 25+ and he was going ~45 or so, no traffic in other direction. I caught him at the stoplight, asked why he didn't move over as the law says 4 feet, he said it's illegal to cross the yellow line. I said then use the brakes then. He said he's in a hurry. I said, we're at the same stop light at the same time, how did this slow you down...

are you in PA? Because the law here specifically allows crossing a double yellow to pass if it's safe. It also specifically says to cool your jets if it's not safe. I don't like the way the law is written, it's too verbose. But it's pretty clear. The gist of it should be the way that 3 foot laws are written, allowing safe passes on double yellow.

Addressing the bike lane question, we have a number of bike lanes where you have to cross the double yellow to pass legally. I really think they are stupid bike lanes, but what can you do? It's progress, I guess

rugbysecondrow

10-30-2015, 08:28 AM

. . .

No matter what I do, I'm pretty sure that my mere presence pushes a button for many drivers because it reminds them of various things or characteristics they don't have . . .

The free time to ride
The self-discipline to get out there
The fitness to do it
The appearance of fitness--I'm not obviously overweight
The money to buy the equipment
The mere freedom to do it if I want to

BBD

I don't think it is any of these things.

Drivers get irate when somebody is going slow in the left lane. It is almost universal in the agitation it causes motorists, they are being held up by somebody who thinks they are more important than anybody else on the road. That one driver is jacking up the system for everybody else.

Substitute the slow driver in the left hand lane for a cyclist, and the reaction is very similar.

The gist is most drivers just don't think cyclists should use the road for recreation. Our playing in the road is mucking up the system. To take it further, cyclists don't help this notion by feeding into it with a sense of entitlement and an F-U attitude.

I am glad these studies are taking place. How do address a problem without truly understanding what the problem is? In many respects, we are addressing symptoms, but those havent really gotten to the root of the issues.

Cyclists and motorists will have to leave their entrenched camps and eventually work this out. If a dialoge doesn't take place, the result will be cyclists losing this fight. When push comes to shove, cyclists don't have any push.

Davist

10-30-2015, 08:39 AM

are you in PA? Because the law here specifically allows crossing a double yellow to pass if it's safe. It also specifically says to cool your jets if it's not safe. I don't like the way the law is written, it's too verbose. But it's pretty clear. The gist of it should be the way that 3 foot laws are written, allowing safe passes on double yellow.

Yes, I'm in PA, I know about double yellows, he didn't.. I've never seen a posted sign about the 4' law, even though we're on the NJ border, and cross to ride often. I'm just a data point, advocacy laws are great, but not if no one knows, uses common sense, enforces them, etc. We all can be "dead" right, as you know..

benb

10-30-2015, 08:44 AM

I suppose the take the laners think I should have blocked his pass when I saw the oncoming car.

Hell no. They're both going way faster than you and he had room to pass you safely (and did). You take the lane there and you're just seriously impeding traffic.

What bugs me about that pickup truck is when those things do happen it's almost inevitable they had room even in their lane to give you a little more room. Most of the time when you get a close pass they wouldn't have needed to cross a double yellow to give you space.

rugbysecondrow

10-30-2015, 08:54 AM

Hell no. They're both going way faster than you and he had room to pass you safely (and did). You take the lane there and you're just seriously impeding traffic.

What bugs me about that pickup truck is when those things do happen it's almost inevitable they had room even in their lane to give you a little more room. Most of the time when you get a close pass they wouldn't have needed to cross a double yellow to give you space.

One issue with the 3 foot rule is I don't think most drivers know how wide their car really is. From their left hand (driver side) perspective, I don't think most drivers can adequately judge how far they are, let alone how far their mirror is from a cyclist.

This might be a false faith placed in humanity, but I think most close encounters with passing cars are not intentional, "I am going to teach you a lesson", it is drivers not gauging their girth, drivers feeling uncomfortable with the situation or somebody being distracted. I have been behind quite a few cars passing cyclists, and I have to say I can't remember seeing one that made me worry, although I know it feels very different on the bike.

velomonkey

10-30-2015, 09:03 AM

Buzzing a cyclist with you car is statistically and physically the same as placing a soda can on their head and saying "sit still, I'm gonna swing this bat and hit the can."

98% of the time the can is hit without any contact to the person. 2% of the time not so much - even though the intent of the person swinging the bat was to not hit the person.

There is nothing someone on a bike can do that would warrant someone else putting them in such a perilous situation. Of course, your opinion may differ.

downtube

10-30-2015, 09:30 AM

Most drivers do not understand life outside of a car. They drive from their home to some parking lot and walk a few step into work, or the mall or maybe a park. But they are not on a street dealing with cars and trucks traveling at 40 miles per hour. They have no idea. Most of us ride bikes, walk, run and drive cars all on the streets. We understand what it is like to be close to huge vehicles. Our perspective is much different, thats why we are so careful when we drive cars around humans. The weird part is many of these people rode bikes as kids or had kids that rode but somehow they have compartmentalized the whole thing.

Bumble Bee Dave is exactly right. I have been in a car with work colleagues and heard some of these very comments, especially the first one and the last one. They really sound jealous when they are making comments

The free time to ride
The self-discipline to get out there
The fitness to do it
The appearance of fitness--I'm not obviously overweight
The money to buy the equipment
The mere freedom to do it if I want to

Dead Man

10-30-2015, 09:51 AM

Sometimes I sulk over other cyclists out riding when I wish I was, too...

Dead Man

10-30-2015, 09:54 AM

I'm self employed... I ride a lot more than some of my friends for that reason. But it's funny how envious they are of me and my schedule flexibility and determination, while I constantly lament how little I can ever actually get away.

Every day this week, I've intended to get out for a lunch or early afternoon ride, and not once have I actually managed to make it happe. Last week, too.. Only got one ride in since weekend before last.

victoryfactory

10-30-2015, 10:00 AM

Anything in their way makes aggressive drivers angry.
Sitting in a metal capsule peering out the window removes us from reality
just enough to cause a disconnect and allows us to feel like we are playing a video
game. Then we try to win. Bad Idea.

People drive the way they think. It's an extension of their personality.

If you are confused, you drive confused.
If you a aggressive you drive aggressive.
If you are clueless......... etc

be careful out there, driving and cycling

VF

Gummee

10-30-2015, 10:07 AM

There was another thread here that explained why drivers behave badly around cyclists because we're the 'out group.' Somehow its justification.

I don't get it, but then again, I'M the out group

M

Kirk007

10-30-2015, 10:25 AM

I don't think it is any of these things.

Drivers get irate when somebody is going slow in the left lane. It is almost universal in the agitation it causes motorists, they are being held up by somebody who thinks they are more important than anybody else on the road. That one driver is jacking up the system for everybody else.

Substitute the slow driver in the left hand lane for a cyclist, and the reaction is very similah.

And isn't this a representative picture of life in America today. Self absorbed, feeling entitled and at the same time threatened, and angry and a lack of control over forces that toss us to and from, powerless to control the larger forces people lash out where and when they can. We have lost our way, and of course we are not alone.

A small quiet village far removed from the rat race seems very appealing to me in 2015.

Seramount

10-30-2015, 10:38 AM

didn't read the article...don't really care why some people dislike those on bikes.

my approach is pretty simple, I ride with self-preservation as the Prime Directive. I take the lane if it improves my chances of achieving the PD. I will yield ROW, even if it's legally mine, if it makes traffic flow calmer and safer.

I assume every driver is going to commit the worst possible action at the worst possible time.

I don't view laws as rigid requirements, if I deem it safer to bend or break some to get thru a ride unharmed, I do so without hesitation.

and I reward courteous behavior by motorists with friendly waves or other gestures.

downtube

10-30-2015, 10:38 AM

A small quiet village far removed from the rat race seems very appealing to me in 2015.

My wife said the very thing on our last ride.

It is very crowded in the bay area. It seems like the number of bad drivers on the road has increased and so has the group of angry people. We just went on a vacation to Oregon and other than the rain many parts of the state seem to be much calmer than here. I don't think the news does much to help, very little talk when a bike rider gets hit, but when Critical Mass happens its a half hour of how bikers are messing up the city. We are a minority group and I would say from my standpoint many things drivers do to us should be considered hate crimes.

shovelhd

10-30-2015, 12:46 PM