mei vici report: a wonderful $4000 frame?

[Climb01742]

whether this falls into the category of biting-the-hand-that-feeds us, i'm not sure. but one of the hallmarks of this forum is honest opinion and discussion.

on sunday, serotta andrew was kind enough to let me ride a mei vici. we rode about 35 miles. varied terrain, some small hills, mostly flat, and over some pretty broken up pavement.

i'm guessing i've ridden as many carbon frames as most anyone on the forum, so i have a pretty good comparison set.

i think the mei vici can honestly stand shoulder to shoulder with the best carbon frames i've ridden. it is light, smooth, responsive, climbs quite nicely, handles bad pavement well, doesn't beat you up. i found absolutely no flaws in its performance. and it is a truly beautiful bike. the craftsmanship looks top notch.

but here's the rub: the price. it stands shoulder to shoulder with other great frames that cost between $4000-$4500, and a few that cost less. yet the mei vici, based on my ride, does nothing at all that is any better than any great frame that i've ridden. and depending on what you're looking for, other frames trump the mei vici in certain areas (what follows is highly personal, subjective and YRMV):

a parlee Z1 climbs better. a time vxrs motors on the flats better and IMO, is a better all-around frame. a c50 extreme is lighter and maybe a touch more responsive, but less smooth. a R3 is lighter, more efficient but also less smooth (and far cheaper).

if the mei vici is going to be far more expensive, it would seem as though it needs to do something far better. andrew did his absolute best to convince me that the fully customizable nature of the mei vici that difference. there_may_be cases where a parlee custom couldn't quite give you the geo a mei vici could, but for most folks, is custom to the degree that a mei vici offers worth $3k more than a parlee?

if the mei vici were the same price as a time, parlee and 'nago, it would be a very tough call. any rider would, i believe, feel as though all four frames were great and their choice would be based on small personal preferences, not big performance difference. but i can't honestly believe that someone could test ride all these frames and feel that the mei vici was worth a $3k premium. $3k at the least, BTW. for basically $4500, a VXRS gives you a frame, fork, stem and seatpost.

serotta has created a great carbon bike. it need not bow its head to any competitor. but based on what else is available, the price is way crazy. my second ottrott rode just as nicely for thousands less. what am i missing?

[William]

Wha!!! Waht did you say!!!

In the words of the littering bears on the Woodsey The Owl commercial (give a hoot, don't pollute)...."OH YEAH!! LET'S GET HIM!!!!!" :bike:



Seriously, thank you for your honest opinion on your first ride report Climb. It will be interesting to hear more...but at the price point they will be slow in coming.


William

[Argos]

I am curious if you think if it was not a Demo bike, but instead YOUR bike, with the appropriate tubeset for your riding style, your choice of components wheels and rubber, as well as our Geometry the review would be a little different?

Either way, sounds like a blast! Thanks for the fair and balanced reporting. I hope we get a report on the "Brunkified" fella, too!

[dbrk]

What you are missing, Climb: Meivici LW (for "Lighter on the Wallet") will follow. It's only natural that there's a second all carbon Serotta, sort of Nove-is for the Ottrott-ish. Meivici is 'cause you want one. Not one thing more needs to rationalize.

Putting cost into any bicycle value makes me look for '92-'94 Bstone RB-1s or -2s. $500-ish.

dbrk

[coylifut]

a parlee Z1 climbs better. a time vxrs motors on the flats better and IMO, is a better all-around frame. a c50 extreme is lighter and maybe a touch more responsive, but less smooth. a R3 is lighter, more efficient but also less smooth (and far cheaper).







Just a couple of comments.

Doesn't Serotta have some kind of no-fault replacement program where you pay some kind of premium and if you bend it, they'll replace it? That's worth a couple of frames isn't it?

You'll have to throw the R3 out of there. They've been delivering them since January and I've already seen a couple broken ones and getting replacements has been problematic.

Oh, and how many peyote buttons do you have to eat before you can tell the Time VRX motors better on the flats.

[Roy E. Munson]

Doesn't Serotta have some kind of no-fault replacement program where you pay some kind of premium

OK, so you've actually just upped the price of it when you factor this in.

Anyone ridden the carbon Soloist? That frame intrigues me more than an R3.

[William]

Oh, and how many peyote buttons do you have to eat before you can tell the Time VRX motors better on the flats.

I don't know? Are we going to be running some tests here??? ;)


William

[Dr. Doofus]

Putting cost into any bicycle value makes me look for '92-'94 Bstone RB-1s or -2s. $500-ish.

dbrk

doof is amused that he regarded the team deal of 300 bucks for an AL trek with ultergra as a wallet hit in 1990. but then again he was a bike-ridin-punk-band-playin dishwasher then, so it was more of a wallet hit than 1500.00 for the same deal would be now....


how much are rider tuned sawged carbon tubes worth? probably a lot if you really need that and can tell the difference. if you don't and can't then its just something you want and if you're cool with the price so what...doof hopes serotta sells a lot of em at the top and and sneak a steel "fierte race" into the lineup at the low end...then doof may be back in the serotta fold....

[slowgoing]

The way I look at it, the Meivici buyers are paying for the forum, and that's OK by me.

[Jack Brunk]

It's still early in the game but my Meivici doesn't ride anything like the prototype that I rode a few months back. I like mine a lot better at this point. I only have a 150 miles on it so give me another week and I give a detailed report.


Jack

[cpg]

Climb while you are more than worthy of your own opinions, it seems to me bad manners to put this on Serotta's forum. If you truly feel this way and want to give Serotta meaningful feedback it shouldn't be done in the public eye. I understand your comments about the price but again this is Serotta's forum and a degree of respect seems in order for our hosts. At least that's the way I see it.

Curt

[andy mac]

Climb while you are more than worthy of your own opinions, it seems to me bad manners to put this on Serotta's forum. If you truly feel this way and want to give Serotta meaningful feedback it shouldn't be done in the public eye. I understand your comments about the price but again this is Serotta's forum and a degree of respect seems in order for our hosts. At least that's the way I see it.

Curt



i may think your wife's fat but i won't tell her, especially if i'm at your house.

:beer:

[Johny]

You forgot the meaning of MeiVici? It's "your" victory if "you" own it.

[Serotta_James]

To Jack's point, the MeiVici you rode is a prototype generation 1. The bikes currently being built and delivered are 5 generations evolved from that.
There are good reasons for that 8 month gap between the first protoypes being produced and the first production bikes being delivered...

[Climb01742]

Climb while you are more than worthy of your own opinions, it seems to me bad manners to put this on Serotta's forum. If you truly feel this way and want to give Serotta meaningful feedback it shouldn't be done in the public eye. I understand your comments about the price but again this is Serotta's forum and a degree of respect seems in order for our hosts. At least that's the way I see it.

Curt

curt, i thought long and hard about just your point. i believe i was fair and balanced in my report. i did praise the frame's performance. and i stated, often, that these were personal, subjective opinions. i do think that the price of the frame is fair game for comment. finally, i think the true strength of this forum -- and it is a testament to ben's character -- is that he allows differing and dissenting opinions here. dissent isn't disloyalty. i'm not arguing that you are wrong, curt. i had exactly the same thoughts. but i just came out in a different place. maybe not the right place. but this forum is unique -- and serotta is unique -- for being strong enough, "big" enough, and confident enough to let this forum be about honest discussion. i hope my report is taken in that spirit. that is how it was written. and i fully expect to have others who have ridden the bike to fully, passionately, and articulately disagree with me.

[SoCalSteve]

curt, i thought long and hard about just your point. i believe i was fair and balanced in my report. i did praise the frame's performance. and i stated, often, that these were personal, subjective opinions. i do think that the price of the frame is fair game for comment. finally, i think the true strength of this forum -- and it is a testament to ben's character -- is that he allows differing and dissenting opinions here. dissent isn't disloyalty. i'm not arguing that you are wrong, curt. i had exactly the same thoughts. but i just came out in a different place. maybe not the right place. but this forum is unique -- and serotta is unique -- for being strong enough, "big" enough, and confident enough to let this forum be about honest discussion. i hope my report is taken in that spirit. that is how it was written. and i fully expect to have others who have ridden the bike to fully, passionately, and articulately disagree with me.

Thats EXACTLY how I took it...

Steve

[ergott]

Anyone else smell "tuna"?

[Johny]

and i fully expect to have others who have ridden the bike to fully, passionately, and articulately disagree with me.

Not the bike...Their Generation X MeiVici's that you will never get a chance to ride. :)

[William]

Climb while you are more than worthy of your own opinions, it seems to me bad manners to put this on Serotta's forum. If you truly feel this way and want to give Serotta meaningful feedback it shouldn't be done in the public eye. I understand your comments about the price but again this is Serotta's forum and a degree of respect seems in order for our hosts. At least that's the way I see it.

Curt

With all due respect to your opinion, by that token we shouldn't talk about Richard Sachs, Kirk frameworks, Zanconato, Vanilla etc since they are competition at one level or another to Serotta. So far this is a free flowing forum of open opinions and that's what makes this a great, informative place. In this matter I think Climb has a lot experience owning and riding many other steeds to make a comparison and back up his opinion. That doesn't make it fact, just his experienced opinion.

I would expect to hear, and want to hear varied opinions on a product. Good and bad. Otherwise, I just feel like I'm reading ad copy.


jmo,

William

[Climb01742]

To Jack's point, the MeiVici you rode is a prototype generation 1. The bikes currently being built and delivered are 5 generations evolved from that.
There are good reasons for that 8 month gap between the first protoypes being produced and the first production bikes being delivered...

very fair point, james. if that is the case, is having 5-generation-old frames in the demo fleet a good idea?

look, everybody: i will accept that many of you will view my post as bad manners. but i would ask you: is there a single cruel or unpleasant word in my post? and would you ever believe a positive thing someone said here about serottas, if there was never a negative thing said?

example: i believe that douglas' new legend actually IS wonderful because he had the honesty to say that his past legends weren't wonderful. how is what douglas did in the past different from what i did today? honesty makes everyone stronger.

[spiderman]

from all i hear about the meivici
and the excitement/debate
generated by this thread...
...i would probably consider getting one...
especially having met ben,
ridden with him,
considering the bike of a lifetime...
...perfect place for the discussion...
and i bet it doesn't hurt ben's feelings one bit...
he knows we have the love
and we just need to look at what he knows
from all the angles...

[alancw3]

"curt, i thought long and hard about just your point. i believe i was fair and balanced in my report. i did praise the frame's performance. and i stated, often, that these were personal, subjective opinions. i do think that the price of the frame is fair game for comment. finally, i think the true strength of this forum -- and it is a testament to ben's character -- is that he allows differing and dissenting opinions here. dissent isn't disloyalty. i'm not arguing that you are wrong, curt. i had exactly the same thoughts. but i just came out in a different place. maybe not the right place. but this forum is unique -- and serotta is unique -- for being strong enough, "big" enough, and confident enough to let this forum be about honest discussion. i hope my report is taken in that spirit. that is how it was written. and i fully expect to have others who have ridden the bike to fully, passionately, and articulately disagree with me."

well said climb01742. thanks for your thoughts and review!

[Grant McLean]

Anyone ridden the carbon Soloist? That frame intrigues me more than an R3.

Carbon soloist is stiff. Too stiff for my likes, but then i'm light (under 140lbs)
and like a smooth ride. The one thing about cervelo's geometry I just don't
understand is their 73' seat tube angle on all frames. The 54cm I rode has
such a short front center, my foot hits the front tire. What's the point of having
to side you seat forward on a small frame to get the proper position over the
pedals, when a 74' seat tube angle does that, and at the same time gives
a longer front center which is more stable, and doesn't have overlap?

g

[Chris]

I've been on this forum a long time. When they shut it down a while back, I emailed Ben and asked to him reconsider. I think that the wealth of information here and the freedom of the members to post about other frames and frame-builders out there all the while being under the Serotta roof has been a great resource. Every once in a while though, you have to wonder why they keep this up at times. Clearly, when they asked whether we jump straight to the forum or check out the website, there was some thinking going on there about the utility of the forum for Serotta.

I have really enjoyed reading about other small frame builders and some of the frame builders who build frames which really aren't in Serotta's niche anymore (Sachs, Weigle, Pegoretti, etc.). I didn't feel that commenting on the quality of other builders did anything to detract from what the fine people at Serotta can build. With this post, however, I had to cringe. This post which was an analysis of essentially one test ride on a "custom" frame which was not built "custom" for this particular rider, by my reading basically said - "It's a nice bike, but not worth the money considering what else is out there." To me, that's an insult to our host here. I'm certain it wasn't meant that way, but it's the way it came across to me. I would have had no problem reading the post on roadbikereview or any other independent forum, but to slam someone's product on their own site was a bit much for me.

I'm sure the other frames listed are nice. Other than the Parlee, most (on my recollection) are relatively production and don't have the ability to be as dialed in specifically to you as the Meivici does. To some extent you pay for that option even if you don't use it. I've had a few Serottas in the past. They've always been stock. I realized that I was paying a premium for a frame since I didn't need to have a lot of tweaks made to mine to make it work, but...I was getting a Serotta, and that alone was worth the premium to me. Some of us don't care what the name on the bike is underneath us, but let's be honest here and admit that a lot of us do. I'm a watch hound ( a poor one, but one none-the-less). My Timex does as well as my Tag, but I wanted a Tag. There are bikes out there that I want because of their heritage, the builder, or any other number of reasons. Their cost is secondary, and for me to slam what the builder believes is a fair price for his product certainly is my perogative. To do it in his "home" as a guest, is as Curt stated earlier - bad manners. Just my 0.02.

[Bruce K]

Climb;

I thought your report was well thought out and quite articulate.

The price point of the Meivici has been discussed here in more than one thread, so your point is really nothing new, nor to my mind offensive.

If and when I decide on an all carbon frame, the price of the Meivici would certainly give me pause. I might still go for it out of brand loyalty, "Gee Whiz Factor" or the idea of Serotta's customization having more options than the competition.

In the meantime, I still love my Ottrott and will continue to do so.

BK

[Serotta_James]

very fair point, james. if that is the case, is having 5-generation-old frames in the demo fleet a good idea?


It's better than not having any MeiVicis in the fleet at all. We can't build new ones right now lest we displace a customer's order. And the fact remains that we've not had any negetive feedback on those bikes in particular, until now. Furthermore, the demo fleet is a great tool for us, but putting people on stock bikes when we are a custom bike company does fall a bit short. The demo bikes exist to give people an understanding of the various materials we use and how they ride. Almost more importantly the demo bikes provide real-world representation of our build quality and attention to detail.

[Grant McLean]

I'm a watch hound ( a poor one, but one none-the-less). My Timex does as well as my Tag, but I wanted a Tag. There are bikes out there that I want because of their heritage, the builder, or any other number of reasons. Their cost is secondary, and for me to slam what the builder believes is a fair price for his product certainly is my perogative. To do it in his "home" as a guest, is as Curt stated earlier - bad manners. Just my 0.02.

On other forums, when someone posts something "bad" about their product,
the "kool-aid" drinkers usually shout down the person for being and idiot.
What's obvious to those who hang out on this forum a lot, is that when someone
makes a vaild point, it's taken for what it is.

Defending the price of anything is in the eye of the beholder.
Things cost what they cost. The Meivici is new and has a lot of new tooling
costs in the project, and is expensive.

Sometimes things aren't priced for how much performance you get,
but the process of how they are made. A Dodge viper or a Corvette are
much less expensive than a Ferrari, and are just as fast, if not faster.
People still find enough "value" in owning a Ferrari.

g

[mtflycaster]

It's also not JUST about the ride. Right?

Serotta's fit and finish and detailing take a back seat to nobody, ATMO.

[93legendti]

whether this falls into the category of biting-the-hand-that-feeds us, i'm not sure. but one of the hallmarks of this forum is honest opinion and discussion.

on sunday, serotta andrew was kind enough to let me ride a mei vici. we rode about 35 miles. varied terrain, some small hills, mostly flat, and over some pretty broken up pavement.

i'm guessing i've ridden as many carbon frames as most anyone on the forum, so i have a pretty good comparison set.

i think the mei vici can honestly stand shoulder to shoulder with the best carbon frames i've ridden. it is light, smooth, responsive, climbs quite nicely, handles bad pavement well, doesn't beat you up. i found absolutely no flaws in its performance. and it is a truly beautiful bike. the craftsmanship looks top notch.

but here's the rub: the price. it stands shoulder to shoulder with other great frames that cost between $4000-$4500, and a few that cost less. yet the mei vici, based on my ride, does nothing at all that is any better than any great frame that i've ridden. and depending on what you're looking for, other frames trump the mei vici in certain areas (what follows is highly personal, subjective and YRMV):

a parlee Z1 climbs better. a time vxrs motors on the flats better and IMO, is a better all-around frame. a c50 extreme is lighter and maybe a touch more responsive, but less smooth. a R3 is lighter, more efficient but also less smooth (and far cheaper).

if the mei vici is going to be far more expensive, it would seem as though it needs to do something far better. andrew did his absolute best to convince me that the fully customizable nature of the mei vici that difference. there_may_be cases where a parlee custom couldn't quite give you the geo a mei vici could, but for most folks, is custom to the degree that a mei vici offers worth $3k more than a parlee?

if the mei vici were the same price as a time, parlee and 'nago, it would be a very tough call. any rider would, i believe, feel as though all four frames were great and their choice would be based on small personal preferences, not big performance difference. but i can't honestly believe that someone could test ride all these frames and feel that the mei vici was worth a $3k premium. $3k at the least, BTW. for basically $4500, a VXRS gives you a frame, fork, stem and seatpost.

serotta has created a great carbon bike. it need not bow its head to any competitor. but based on what else is available, the price is way crazy. my second ottrott rode just as nicely for thousands less. what am i missing?

Climb, how did the wheels, tires, seat and bars compare to what you usually ride?

[dbrk]

I weighed in before weighing in prolly because I'm not inclined to take words all that personally...otherwise I would be offended and I don't have time or inclination for that. Being from Jersey and that not being an excuse from the State whose slogan is or should be "You got a problem with 'dat?" or "You talkin' to me?", I always inclined to err on the side of candor and downright impolitic affrontery.

I was just eating a Columbo yogurt. My wife buys them, I was hungry, I would not be inclined to eat one unless it was an obvious, right before hungry eyes (inclined to see this as a sexist male truism...) choice. I was just thinking that these "Lights" are too chalky, weirdly sweet in that artifical way, and definitely gelatinous. There is easily better yogurt imho. But don't like'em, don'teat'em. Should I tell my friends (or enemies, for that matter)? Should I tell Columbo that?

Whether or not I am ever rude or disobliging, the issue of manners I cannot associate with moral advantage or superiority. Sometimes we say stuff, sometimes we don't. Your call.

dbrk

[lnomalley]

here's my dealio.. every bike that i've ridden.. no matter what it's made out of.. the thing that's determined how it rides has been the geometry. if i could take any of you guy's mommas and stick a wheel between her ankles and hands and sit on her back... but line everything up so that geometry is right... i'd think your mom is a great bike. if she weren't stiff in the right places .. well that would diminish her ride a little... and if she weighed more than 16.5 lbs built up.. that would take her down a notch too. but if your momma were the geometry i like.. i could top ten her in any race.



i've had wheelbase, chainstay length and bb drop all in relationship together make a wonderful bike feel like i'm being force fed hair and ketchup. my personal bike is ti.. my current race bike is carbon/alum, the one before that was all alum, and the one before that alum w/carbon stays.... and the thing that made the best of these bike the best was the geometry.

atmo. word to your mother. :banana:

p.s., i often race with the discovery masters guys and was bummed not to see them on serottas this year. one of em.. meeker did redlands on a parlee... i guess parlee almost supplied the bikes for the team.... but now they are on scotts. i always lost focus in races looking at those otrotts. they were the sexiest bikes i'd ever seen.

[TAW]

I appreciated your opinions. I attended a Demo Day here in the area and got to ride basically everything, and thought that the MeiVici was the nicest bike in the Serotta line. But it also was equipped with the lightest and best components, and the only bike I saw with tubs. But a very nice bike, nonetheless.

As far as the forum goes, I would credit it with influencing me to buy a Serotta. That being said, a good forum, like a good magazine, allows honest opinions about the products that may even sponsor it. And I think we all know that one person's opinion is just that.

Thanks

[bironi]

To Jack's point, the MeiVici you rode is a prototype generation 1. The bikes currently being built and delivered are 5 generations evolved from that.
There are good reasons for that 8 month gap between the first protoypes being produced and the first production bikes being delivered...

Had Climb been informed about riding a model 5 generations back, perhaps his bike review would have had a much different set of conclusions.

Byron

[victoryfactory]

In my opinion, Mr Serotta is gambling here that the price of his new frame
will attract enough well heeled buyers to allow him to recover his
investment in a short time.

I would have liked to see his carbon frame sell for around 5K
That price range seems to be more in line. Maybe Serotta doesn't want
to be "in line" according to me. shock and horror!
But 5K would have made the decision between the Mievici and some of the
other high zoot carbons much more difficult.

Either way, I am confident that the meivici will be a great frame, I
just wish I could afford one. Actually, I take that back....
I may not be able to justify riding any bike that costs 10K.

One thing that I can't question is the dedication of Serotta to make
the very best bicycle on the planet, I respect that.

VF

[Kahuna]

You have personally seen this? I've been riding an R3 lately and it's hands down the BEST bike I've ever ridden (http://www.bikefanclub.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=2052&size=big) period. (anyone want to buy a nice c50?).

One well known dealer who's probably sold more R3s than anyone in the country as of today has seen zero failures or had any returns for warantee issues. Also, I thought Cervelo began shipping the R3 in March. Could you be referring to some early (i.e. first generation) frames?

It wouldn't matter to to me. If my R3 broke tomorrow, I'd have it replaced another R3. It may be too stiff for some but for me it's pure magic.

-K


You'll have to throw the R3 out of there. They've been delivering them since January and I've already seen a couple broken ones and getting replacements has been problematic.

[Grandpa]

The cost difference between the Meivici and say a Cevelo Soloist Carbon, for some, could be very easily justified knowing you are supporting a company that builds bikes in the U.S. and was glued together by someone making a reasonable living wage.

A $3k frame glued together in China would make me think REAL hard, especially from a company with such a poor QC track record...

[jpw]

very fair point, james. if that is the case, is having 5-generation-old frames in the demo fleet a good idea?

look, everybody: i will accept that many of you will view my post as bad manners. but i would ask you: is there a single cruel or unpleasant word in my post? and would you ever believe a positive thing someone said here about serottas, if there was never a negative thing said?

example: i believe that douglas' new legend actually IS wonderful because he had the honesty to say that his past legends weren't wonderful. how is what douglas did in the past different from what i did today? honesty makes everyone stronger.

Not bad manners at all. Serotta might even benefit from the feedback, no?

[Argos]

I do not think Climbs post was outta line. He was fair, polite and respectful. He is a well ridden individual, and does have a good sense of things. I think many arguments are valid on both sides and that, if nothing else, Climbs post brought things out. The Generatioal differences between models, the perspective of someone buying a Meivici, etc....

So my point is this...

Serotta James, When you introduced the new generation frames into the demofleet.......

dibs* on the 53 in the fleet now.






*dibs is a legally binding term.

[lnomalley]

CERVELO MAKES ALL SIZES OF THEIR FRAMES WITH THE SAME SEAT TUBE ANGLE! Make that make sense to me. This makes Cervelo irrelevant in every size except one and not in the same discussion as any custom bike. :bike:

[jpw]

....................

[e-RICHIE]

CERVELO MAKES ALL SIZES OF THEIR FRAMES WITH THE SAME SEAT TUBE ANGLE! Make that make sense to me. This makes Cervelo irrelevant in every size except one and not in the same discussion as any custom bike. :bike:
amen atmo

[Ahneida Ride]

Climb while you are more than worthy of your own opinions, it seems to me bad manners to put this on Serotta's forum. If you truly feel this way and want to give Serotta meaningful feedback it shouldn't be done in the public eye. I understand your comments about the price but again this is Serotta's forum and a degree of respect seems in order for our hosts. At least that's the way I see it.
Curt

But this is the whole point of the Phorum. Honest opinions for all to
read. The credibility of the post is up to the reader.

Censor the Phorum and it loses it's vitality and usefulness.
I purposely purchased my Legend on the integrity of the sentiment
expressed here. Not everyone likes a Legend Ti either.

I too would never purchase a Meivici. But that does not mean that others
should not consider it.

If Uncle Ben does not wish honest and sincere reviews of his products,
he should state so.

I think the Phorunites are quite adept at defending Serotta from inappropriate comments.

[Zard]

Climb,

Thanks for the report and your comments. Nothing out of line.

We were all saying the same thing, price wise, when the Ottrott was first released.

The price point of the Mevici is a valid topic of comment. We have probably all asked the same question to ourselves.

Honest talk and opinion is a real hallmark of this forum. This forum is the first place I steer anyone that is interested in a new bike to. There are some amazing posts and contributors (wish Big Mac would come back though...) and of course, an amazing host, Ben Serotta.

One of the many reasons we have 3 Serottas in our garage.......

[Skrawny]

I had the privilege to put 60 miles in a Meivici earlier this year. I wanted to give it its shot, so I wasn't the nicest team rider that day; I attacked every hill I could (was never able to drop James tho...). :bike:

The Mevici had DA, my Legend is Record. The wheels were equivalent (I think). Oh and the Meivici had some honkin' wide handlebars...

I noticed I had to stand up a lot less when the going got really steep than I do on my ride (same gearing). I noticed the high frequency buzz was muted and more comfortable, but the frame just as stiff. All-in-all I think I was riding about 5-10% better than on my Legend. Maybe I was more pumped because I was on such a nice bike, I don't know.

It was the best bike I had ever ridden -which is saying a lot, because prior to that day my Legend was the best. I mentioned it to James, he replied: "The legend is the best Ti bike we know how to make, the Ottrott is the best mixed and the Meivici is the best all carbon" (sorry for quoting you in your presence, James!). Some time after that I ran into the back of a rental car in Bolinas (sorry James, did you tell Ben?)

Is the Meivici worth the money?
How many times have we had the "value" debate in this forum? If you are willing to pay it, yes, it is worth the money.

Which is "worth" more: the Mercedes Maybach, the Ferrari F40 or the Saleen S7?
-s

[Too Tall]

Funny that...James was wiping crusted drool off that bike all weekend long. It is a lust object.
Interestingly, my good friend Tom ,not a forum member, rode a Meivici on the long ride sat. He insisted that I loan him a spare tubular tyre so that the Meivici fitted with Zipp Tubulars was riding at top potential. After mile 50 he says "this is one smooooooth ride" to which I ask "so, does the Meivici handle as good as your ti legend?". "yeah, I guess they handle about the same...pretty nice". "So, is the fit great?" "Yep, feels nice". "So, what's different?" "The ride is smooooooth". "Tell me Tom, what would you say if I put a set of sexy carbon wheels and sweet tubulars on your Ti Legend...do you think that you'd love the Legend in a whole new way?" "OH HE!! yeah". "M,kay, so you agree that a great deal of what attracts you to the bike is the ride quality and prolly has a great deal to do with the wheels / tyres right?" "Yep".

What remains is bike lust. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

Friends don't let friends ride Mevici's with clinchers ;)

[cpg]

But this is the whole point of the Phorum. Honest opinions for all to
read. The credibility of the post is up to the reader.

Censor the Phorum and it loses it's vitality and usefulness.
I purposely purchased my Legend on the integrity of the sentiment
expressed here. Not everyone likes a Legend Ti either.

I too would never purchase a Meivici. But that does not mean that others
should not consider it.

If Uncle Ben does not wish honest and sincere reviews of his products,
he should state so.

I think the Phorunites are quite adept at defending Serotta from inappropriate comments.


Censor what? Who's asking for that? Not me. He liked how it rode but thought it's too expensive. Fair enough but my point about meaningful feedback is that I seriously doubt this forum is where Serotta (the company) is looking. Would it not be more effective to contact Serotta directly with this review? I don't mean to imply that Climb is being mean or malicious with this. It's obvious he gave it a lot of thought and had similar reservations as I do but he came to a different conclusion. Fair enough but I stand by what I said. I never said censor anything.

Curt

[MartyE]

personally I think it would be an insult to Ben, and to Serotta
as a company to pander to them for the sake of this website.


marty

[Serotta_James]

It would never have occured to me to censor Climb's post.

Let me say I'm also not an apologist for the price of the MeiVici. Based on my riding experiences and what I know about frame fabrication I feel 100% honest claiming the MeiVici's superiority. The fact is that the retail cost of the MeiVici directly reflects the cost to produce it, both in machinery and man power. It's as close to perfect as any bike model I have seen and I can't wait to get mine...

[flyingscot]

Climb
Nothing wrong with your thread
This forum would be die the minute that all you were allowed to write about was Serottas (and then in the most gushing of terms)

No one can doubt your loyalty to the brand nor your honesty in your reviews

When you praised your Ottrot it had credibility
As does this latest review

I also think the excuse for the less than glowing review being that you only rode a Generation 1 as fairly weak
If it is a Meivici test bike it is a test bike. It is out there to be ridden and judgements made. End of story
Only solution is to get you on a Generation 5 frame tommorow and see if there are any improvements!

[72gmc]

Thanks for the review, Climb. I respect your opinion and Serotta's generosity in giving you a forum for it.

Shortly after I asked my wife to marry me, I informed her (in the interest of full disclosure) that my midlife crisis car is a Porsche C4S. At a time when I may question how well or poorly I'm using the 3 billion or so hearbeats I have, I will have no questions about how well I'm spending my time behind the wheel. Oddly, it's the same reason I bother with a 34 year old truck now. It makes me happy, so I feel my time is well spent.

I see the MeiVici in the same way. A chance to use every moment in the saddle as well as possible. If you can afford the premium and you want it, the MeiVici represents (I think) some pretty reasonable values: time and heartbeats matter more than money. At least philosophically, when I find my "ultimate" bike, even 3K will seem a fairly low premium for saddle time I will only have once.

Sorry for the long post.

[Skrawny]

Sorry, 72gmc,

"...the Mercedes Maybach, the Ferrari F40, the Saleen S7... or the Porsche C4S..."
Cheers!
-s

[Climb01742]

Climb, how did the wheels, tires, seat and bars compare to what you usually ride?

the mei vici had the zipp team csc shallow-profile alu training wheels, clinchers, DA10 and arione saddle. my normal wheels, while not zipps, are almost exactly the same, and i ride DA10 and ariones. so all the bits were apples to apples.

however, as serotta james pointed out, it was a pre-production model and not tuned to my tubing preferences.

i fully expect a mei vici owner to soon tell me i have my head up my @ss. and that's cool. i want folks to love their mei vicis and i want ben to prosper. it just wasn't the bike for me. different strokes.

[nick0137]

Good choice. C4S was my midlife crisis car. Had one of the first of the 996 ones 4 years or so ago. Best car I've ever had. But it was never going to be a keeper - only had it for 9 (expensive - ouch, feel the depreciation) months before it had to go to pay the builders. Oh, and for a Legend Ti (and an e-richie crosser off the bay). So, all in all not a bad downshift.....

Meivici? Seen the one in Cyclefit in London (it looks stunning and is light in a sort of not-flimsy sort of way) and have been promised a long-delayed (will it ever stop raining?) test ride. Made it clear I was never going to buy one though. (Just in case the wife was listening in.....)

[catulle]

if the mei vici is going to be far more expensive, it would seem as though it needs to do something far better. andrew did his absolute best to convince me that the fully customizable nature of the mei vici that difference. there_may_be cases where a parlee custom couldn't quite give you the geo a mei vici could, but for most folks, is custom to the degree that a mei vici offers worth $3k more than a parlee?

if the mei vici were the same price as a time, parlee and 'nago, it would be a very tough call. any rider would, i believe, feel as though all four frames were great and their choice would be based on small personal preferences, not big performance difference. but i can't honestly believe that someone could test ride all these frames and feel that the mei vici was worth a $3k premium. $3k at the least, BTW. for basically $4500, a VXRS gives you a frame, fork, stem and seatpost.

what am i missing?

I wonder as much. That is, each time I have visited a Serotta dealer and have mentioned that prices are a bit steep, I've been told that the custom option makes all the difference in the world, thus justifying the high price. However, I have been measured/fitted (quite expensively) by three different Serotta dealers (two of them very well known, one of them actually recommended by the Serotta people themselves), and the results have been different each time: 52X53; 54X54; 51X54.

My point is, if the custom option makes so much difference, how can I be sure that I will get the right frame if each time I've been measured the results have been different? As it is, it seems like, for me, it would be a $3,000 crap shoot. Or is it $7,000?

I don't mean to be critical of our great and kind hosts, I don't want to bite that hands that feeds me so many good times here, but I'd love to know how to solve my Serotta conundrum.

[William]

I wonder as much. That is, each time I have visited a Serotta dealer and have mentioned that prices are a bit steep, I've been told that the custom option makes all the difference in the world, thus justifying the high price. However, I have been measured/fitted (quite expensively) by three different Serotta dealers (two of them very well known, one of them actually recommended by the Serotta people themselves), and the results have been different each time: 52X53; 54X54; 51X54.

My point is, if the custom option makes so much difference, how can I be sure that I will get the right frame if each time I've been measured the results have been different? As it is, it seems like. for me, it would be a $3,000 crap shoot.

I don't mean to be critical of our great and kind hosts, I don't want to bite that hands that feeds me so many good times here, but I'd love to know how to solve my Serotta conundrum.

Nothing against the finished product....we all know Serotta quality. But your conudrum is one that has been argued on here many times. It boils down to differences in fitters. Which of the three is really best for you? Do you have the cash for three MV's to find out? Or just buy the one in the middle and ride it for a few years and figure out on your own which is the right one. The arguement has gone both ways.

Nothing against individual fitters, but that to me is the possible flaw in using a middle man. The percentages may be on your side, but the possibility of getting a wrong fit is there. Direct to the builder has a higher percentage of success.

Just my $.02 & MO.

William

http://www.petdiscounters.com/files/images/d_3740.jpg

[Kevan]

as I recall the Ottrott took a lot more slamming than this new steed has as yet. Anyway, this too will pass and we can proceed in peace, attacking Sandy instead.

A couple years ago when the Dragonfly was d'bomb of the Calfee line, I had the opportunity to ride Bruce's for a few miles, complete with his set of Lew's and the True Temper sub 300 fork. Well, I was simply amazed at the difference of my bike to his. His bike was so much lighter and so smooth, it was plush feeling. Slow to return his bike back then, I now know there were too many variables for me to even try to make a fair assessment of this bike. All the bits and pieces add up to a difference and the only way to really peg the difference of two bikes is to live with them both for a while, wearing the same stuff.

Serotta must know in advance there is a shock wave with every introduction, but my guess is it's a shrug at the conference table when they've determined they have discovered the next "better" bicycle.

[rob137]

I wonder as much. That is, each time I have visited a Serotta dealer and have mentioned that prices are a bit steep, I've been told that the custom option makes all the difference in the world, thus justifying the high price. However, I have been measured/fitted (quite expensively) by three different Serotta dealers (two of them very well known, one of them actually recommended by the Serotta people themselves), and the results have been different each time: 52X53; 54X54; 51X54.

My point is, if the custom option makes so much difference, how can I be sure that I will get the right frame if each time I've been measured the results have been different? As it is, it seems like, for me, it would be a $3,000 crap shoot. Or is it $7,000?

I don't mean to be critical of our great and kind hosts, I don't want to bite that hands that feeds me so many good times here, but I'd love to know how to solve my Serotta conundrum.


Excellent point. Different fitters = different bikes. I have been luckier (? ). I have shown up 3 times to be fitted, had 2 no shows and met with one (in another state). So I only have 1 set of numbers, but I know in my heart of hearts, the numbers would be different (and so would my custom experience).

[Kahuna]

Inomalley, Cervelo provides a lucid explanation (http://www.cervelo.com/bikes.aspx?bike=SLC2006#G) that makes sense out of this admitedly unusual concept.

The company seems to target bikes for the majority of people who are able to tune (i.e. customize) their fit with component selection.

Their frames are also designed for racing and/or hard training. Those who need their bars close to saddle level are going to have a hard time getting the right fit with these bikes.

I'd have loved to buy/own a Meivici. Unfortunately Serotta priced me out of the market on that one. They're targeting a different income bracket that unfortunately I'm not a member of, yet. :)

-K


CERVELO MAKES ALL SIZES OF THEIR FRAMES WITH THE SAME SEAT TUBE ANGLE! Make that make sense to me. This makes Cervelo irrelevant in every size except one and not in the same discussion as any custom bike. :bike:

[flydhest]

catulle,
For me the virtue of the custom option isn't entirely--or even largely--in the sizing or fit, but in the tube selection and most importantly the characteristic of the total package. Leaving Serotta aside for a moment, for the smaller boutique builders, what many satisfied customers report being the cause of a successful outcome was that they described to the builder/designer what they wanted, how they wanted the bike to ride, and the designer designed and built the bike with those characteristics. I think the statements "it's the tubes, dammit" being refuted by "it's the design, not the tubes" sets up a false dichotomy. The tubes and tube selection are part of the design process. Somebody shout out "gestalt" for me. The two (along with other things) go together. That is what custom should be, in my ho. Letting the people who know about bikes do the building and designing and the fitting and the sizing and let the person who knows about themself do the describing of the bike they want.

[catulle]

[QUOTE=William] Direct to the builder has a higher percentage of success.

William


A fourth set of numbers?

[catulle]

catulle,
For me the virtue of the custom option isn't entirely--or even largely--in the sizing or fit, but in the tube selection and most importantly the characteristic of the total package. Leaving Serotta aside for a moment, for the smaller boutique builders, what many satisfied customers report being the cause of a successful outcome was that they described to the builder/designer what they wanted, how they wanted the bike to ride, and the designer designed and built the bike with those characteristics. I think the statements "it's the tubes, dammit" being refuted by "it's the design, not the tubes" sets up a false dichotomy. The tubes and tube selection are part of the design process. Somebody shout out "gestalt" for me. The two (along with other things) go together. That is what custom should be, in my ho. Letting the people who know about bikes do the building and designing and the fitting and the sizing and let the person who knows about themself do the describing of the bike they want.

I "get" Gestalt. And I believe the knowledge you have about the bicycle you need, the experience and insight of the builder, and the rapport between the two is what results in a well fitted frame. Like you said, though, we're leaving Serotta aside for a moment, of course.

[e-RICHIE]

Somebody shout out "gestalt" for me.

GESTALT YO
sorry it took so long - was out working
on the pipes and the tanlines atmo.

[lnomalley]

Inomalley, Cervelo provides a lucid explanation (http://www.cervelo.com/bikes.aspx?bike=SLC2006#G) that makes sense out of this admitedly unusual concept.

The company seems to target bikes for the majority of people who are able to tune (i.e. customize) their fit with component selection.

Their frames are also designed for racing and/or hard training. Those who need their bars close to saddle level are going to have a hard time getting the right fit with these bikes.

I'd have loved to buy/own a Meivici. Unfortunately Serotta priced me out of the market on that one. They're targeting a different income bracket that unfortunately I'm not a member of, yet. :)

-K

Kahuna, i'm aware of their rationale... and i think it's garbage. i do a good 60 plus races a year.... and putting a seatpost in backwards is not a way to deal with seat tube angle. i've also had the pleasure of doing some training with some of riis's boys and i can't say that they were too fond of the gear either.
so... look.. we can all wear the same size shoe.. it's just a matter of how many socks you need to fill the toes.

[Grant McLean]

Inomalley, Cervelo provides a lucid explanation (http://www.cervelo.com/bikes.aspx?bike=SLC2006#G) that makes sense out of this admitedly unusual concept.

The company seems to target bikes for the majority of people who are able to tune (i.e. customize) their fit with component selection.



Which definition explains the philosophy of "fitting" that totally ignors the
effect of weight distribution on the way a bike handles?
Life is about more than the distance from saddle to handlebar. YO.

g

[Johny]

i've also had the pleasure of doing some training with some of riis's boys and i can't say that they were too fond of the gear either.


Which brand of juice do they like best? :)

[Ray]

catulle,
I think the statements "it's the tubes, dammit" being refuted by "it's the design, not the tubes" sets up a false dichotomy. The tubes and tube selection are part of the design process. Somebody shout out "gestalt" for me.
I know it all goes into the mix, but I think geo is more important. I've had bikes with very different tube sets and virtually identical geometry that felt pert near identical. I've had bikes with about identical tube sets and very different geometry and they felt very different. I know tubes make a difference and, in the hand of a good designer are an important part of the mix, but I think geometry plays a larger role.

That said, a good custom fitter/designer/builder can perform magic, even for a middle B rider like me. So the custom premium is worth it atmo.

-Ray

[e-RICHIE]

Which brand of juice do they like best? :)

twins peak merlot atmo

[flydhest]

I know it all goes into the mix, but I think geo is more important. I've had bikes with very different tube sets and virtually identical geometry that felt pert near identical. I've had bikes with about identical tube sets and very different geometry and they felt very different. I know tubes make a difference and, in the hand of a good designer are an important part of the mix, but I think geometry plays a larger role.

That said, a good custom fitter/designer/builder can perform magic, even for a middle B rider like me. So the custom premium is worth it atmo.

-Ray

Ray,
I agree with you to a large extent. One conversation over the weekend, however, illustrates the interplay well, in my ho. Serotta Andrew (who should chime in if I fail to recreate the discussion correctly) was talking about an evolution of head tube sizes over the years. With some tubesets that had more flex to them, a slightly steeper HTA was spec'd, say 1/2 degree, relative to the stiffer, subsequent tubing, that HTA. The logic being that the minor flex could replicate a slackening of the HTA so the result in cornering is roughly the same. The result is that a minor tweak of the actual geometry results in a maintenance of the "effective" geometry (a phrase I just made up) because of the difference in tubing. Now, I don't know nuthin' 'bout birthin' no babies nor about bicycle design, but if that's a kosher explanation of the design evolution, then geometry--or at least its effect on bike handling, for example--cannot be neatly separated from tubing.

The beard looks good, even if I didn't recognize you at first.

[shinomaster]

I thought a Meivici was more than $4000....

[JohnS]

I thought a Meivici was more than $4000....Read his whole review. He's saying that a Meivici is comparable to many $4000 frames and therefore should be priced accordingly. Nobody said that it only costs $4000.

[shinomaster]

Rats...if they were only $4000 I would order a cross bike and a road bike! :banana:

[e-RICHIE]

reading is fundamental atmo

[Fixed]

bro it ain't about what you need it's about what you want .
if you can afford it ...you deserve it.. for all the hard work .
cheers

[Dr. Doofus]

bro it ain't about what you need it's about what you want .
if you can afford it ...you deserve it.. for all the hard work .
cheers

counter-revolutionary bro but right itpho

[1centaur]

When the MeiVici came out we all howled about the price point and begged for information that would make us think it might be worth it. Serotta posters here came up with a high degree of customization, but really nothing else - not weight, not joint construction, not "laterally stiff but vertically compliant" to a degree never witnessed by mankind, not looks (several other frames look just as good or better, IMO).

Within the possibly unmatched customization category, there are geometry and tube selection/shaping. Most of us don't need extreme geometry, so for us the issue is whether the tube shaping/selection is worth $2-4k (and BTW, Climb's review was our first assurance that we're not talking $5-6k, so it's actually positive). Because Climb can't ride every version of the tubes, nor can anyone else, Serotta can't lose that argument, nor convincingly win it. Serotta James thinks it's the best CF bike, apparently many generations more perfect than Climb's and an unknown number of generations less perfect than it will end up. Apparently it's incredibly expensive to shape tubes (and develop high-angle interfaces).

That's all we can know at this point until many riders who have had the tubes shaped for them AND who know what it feels like to ride a Parlee/Calfee/Crumpton/Time, etc. chime in to create a statistical sample of MeiVici comparisons. In other words, we may never know, and those of us who do the ride comparisons will not be universally believed.

However, to the tireless, obsessed horde of folks who hang out here poring over frame minutiae, Climb has provided the first well informed data point and for that I thank him. I am sure none of us is shocked by his conclusions. I look forward to the next data point from Mr. Brunk.

[Ray]

Ray,
I agree with you to a large extent. One conversation over the weekend, however, illustrates the interplay well, in my ho. Serotta Andrew (who should chime in if I fail to recreate the discussion correctly) was talking about an evolution of head tube sizes over the years. With some tubesets that had more flex to them, a slightly steeper HTA was spec'd, say 1/2 degree, relative to the stiffer, subsequent tubing, that HTA. The logic being that the minor flex could replicate a slackening of the HTA so the result in cornering is roughly the same. The result is that a minor tweak of the actual geometry results in a maintenance of the "effective" geometry (a phrase I just made up) because of the difference in tubing. Now, I don't know nuthin' 'bout birthin' no babies nor about bicycle design, but if that's a kosher explanation of the design evolution, then geometry--or at least its effect on bike handling, for example--cannot be neatly separated from tubing.

The beard looks good, even if I didn't recognize you at first.
Good point Fly. I heard that same conversation - I think Andrew must have had it a few times. And I remember TK talking about how ti seemed to be a naturally more responsive material than steel so that, to achieve the same handling, he'd spec a ti frame with a half degree slacker head tube than steel. Which might have something to do with the material or maybe he uses a larger diameter tube for his ti headtubes? Not sure. But in either case, it's a case of the tubing calling for a different geometry to achieve similar results.

Ahh he!!, I obviously don't know what I'm talking about to begin with.

-Ray

[Argos]

http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=12611&stc=1

reading is fundamental atmo

[Nelson]: Ha, ha! It's funny 'cause it's wrong!

Poor kid looks so happy.

[Dr. Doofus]

that's a great picture of robert mcnamara yo

[William]

that's a great picture of robert mcnamara yo

I was thinking Olie North...or Dan Qayle...or Kenny Banya.....



William

[Johny]

Little George: fuzzy f#@##$% math http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=12611&stc=1

[Serpico]

comments from Climb, and other cyclerati on this forum, are the reason I bought a Serotta

the guy doesn't like the Meivici he rode and it somehow outweighs his hundreds of positive comments and enthusiasm for Serotta over the years--huh? how does that make sense?

it's an opinion, and this is 'teh internets'--lighten up

when this forum becomes a kool-aid fest is when Serotta loses me as a customer


btw, thanks for the board Ben :beer: and thanks for the sweet bikes :)

[catulle]

bro it ain't about what you need it's about what you want .
if you can afford it ...you deserve it.. for all the hard work .
cheers


You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometime, you just might find that you get what you need... (Jagger/Richards, circa 1968) atmo

[e-RICHIE]

You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometime, you just might find that you get what you need... (Jagger/Richards, circa 1968) atmo


what they didn't want or get but needed
really badly was swimming lessons for
brian jones (http://eil.com/newgallery/Rolling-Stones-The-Brian-Jones-Y-338389.jpg) atmo.

[catulle]

what they didn't want or get but needed
really badly was swimming lessons for
brian jones (http://eil.com/newgallery/Rolling-Stones-The-Brian-Jones-Y-338389.jpg) atmo.

Too bad, atmo. He's now hanging out with Jimi, and Janis, and Jim, and Sartre, and Marilyn, and Diogenes, and Frank, and Steinbeck, and Coppi, and Marlon, and... Phewww, that's a big bunch o' dudes, man. I hear they have taken to riding W.B. Hurlow bikes. Janis rides a Mercier, though, she likes the light fuchsia hot-pink stuff. Too much Kool-Aid for Brian back on that big house, iirc. Oh well, we'll be joining them soon enough. I just hope I'll get to ride a red bike before then, atmo...!!

[Kahuna]

I don't think their rationale says anything about putting one's seatpost in backwards to compensate for choosing the wrong size frame. What they describe is something entirely different. But I hear what you're saying. If it's the wrong size frame to begin with, it's going to be the wrong size frame at the end of the day.

Kahuna, i'm aware of their rationale... and i think it's garbage. i do a good 60 plus races a year.... and putting a seatpost in backwards is not a way to deal with seat tube angle. i've also had the pleasure of doing some training with some of riis's boys and i can't say that they were too fond of the gear either.
so... look.. we can all wear the same size shoe.. it's just a matter of how many socks you need to fill the toes.
Guess I'm just lucky to find the right shoe!

-K

[shinomaster]

Sorry I didn't read the original post so well....it never spelled out the exact price for anything though..

[Climb01742]

Sorry I didn't read the original post so well....it never spelled out the exact price for anything though..

sorry, shino. i thought the price had been discussed so much, i neglected to mention it. frame price is $7095. fork and paint are extra.

[1centaur]

Hey, is that a few dollars more per generation from the original price?

[catulle]

sorry, shino. i thought the price had been discussed so much, i neglected to mention it. frame price is $7095. fork and paint are extra.

Niche marketing? The most expensive bicycle in the world? Many will go to the Orient, atmo.

[Roy E. Munson]

frame price is $7095. fork and paint are extra.

You've got to be joking.

[Too Tall]

Coming soon to a theatre near you.

[William]

Niche marketing? The most expensive bicycle in the world? Many will go to the Orient, atmo.

Hey, everyone is on the demographic bandwagon these days. Study your customer base, pick your niche, plan your attack, and set it in motion. If you've got the name, choose your poison: high volume low price, low volume high price. And remember, perception is everything. How do you go about protecting the luxury (Meivici type)niche?

A.) Constantly "educate" your best customers as to the price/value equation - why the product is worth the price.

B.) See marketing as an investment, not a cost.

C.) Stay sensitive to the equity inherent in brand - be careful not to dilute brand identity by overextending with new products and services.

D.) Understand "the loyalty effect" - the impact on long-term profitability of retaining and growing your share of best customers.

E.) Heighten service and intelligent "one to one" contact with best customers - find creative ways to meet their need to feel "special".

F.) Build collaborations and partnerships with like minded marketers.

atmo.


William


(from the William business archives)

[CalfeeFly]

[QUOTE=Kahuna](anyone want to buy a nice c50?).QUOTE]


What size? :banana:

A good friend wrenched at the local Cervelo store and it is probably the last frame he would buy. The last I heard they did not have any dedicated factories yet and were still bidding out each production run. With their growth that may very well have changed.

As far a price versus value versus this bike and that versus overall cost versus warranty versus yada-yada-yada....

The price is what the market will bear. Don't believe in an instant the the driving force of cost of any item is manufacturing cost. The cost to build an Expedition and a Focus is quite similar. Before a self-named expert disagrees...the major cost of any car is LABOR not materials. It takes almost same amount of assembly line time.

The bike industry is a business. The owners will get the maximum about of money they can for their product so they can make a profit. You can take ANY high end product and get into a similar discussion and it will go nowhere. How can you truly justify a $750 Zipp Crank? Is it really twice as good as a mere alloy crank of half that price. No the market will bear that price and sales will be sufficient to support it.

Ralph Lauren and Mercedes became the kings of price as high as the suckers will pay in the 80's. If you were in school then please don't comment...it was a heady time. Ralph charged $650 for a Polo varsity jacket in the 80's...exactly like the team gave folks in HS...the really funny one was charging more for his Burberry knock-off than the real thing. He is laughing all the way to the bank. When they decide on a production run they estimate how many suckers will pay full price at their trendy stores, how many not so big a sucker will pay Lauren Outlet Store Prices, how many will get it in Marshalls two years later and so on and so on. My wife and I started to wear his clothing when he first came out...it wasn't priced like this...then he could price it like this as wearing the right label became the in thing.

Mercedes you ask? In the 80's they realized that a segment of the American consumer loves to buy things that most others can't afford. The ultimate "high" for such folks is flaunting their cars as I know you can't buy this. It started to become apparent to me in 84 when the same "luxury" compact sedan in the States was a taxi in Athens. I started to read about their pricing and found out that they priced higher here. They found they could get a higher price and increase their margins to the extent that even though they sold less cars their net was higher.

All this to say...it is all what people will pay. A few years ago it was Ti and now it is carbon the new wonder child of cycling. I remember running in Central Park when anyone who was anyone in NYC rode a Merlin. (This is back in the New England Merlin days not TN.) The ego of those riders was a joy to watch. ;) Now they are on a carbon something.

It wasn't all that long ago that you really could say that when it came to bikes there was good news and bad news. The good news being that you get what you pay for and the bad news being you get what you pay for. The highest end wasn't the so far from the next rung down the ladder. Such is no longer the case as bicycle companies have learned marketing skills. Is Dura-Ace really all that much better than Ultegra or do we like to ride a D/A or Record bike if we can afford it? I think we all know the answer to that question.

So there is no reason to get all out of sorts. It really is just one big game. When the bicycle companies price something and the market won't support it...we see it in the Performance Catalog at 1/2 price.

[catulle]

Hey, everyone is on the demographic bandwagon these days. Study your customer base, pick your niche, plan your attack, and set it in motion. If you've got the name, choose your poison: high volume low price, low volume high price. And remember, perception is everything. How do you go about protecting the luxury (Meivici type)niche?

A.) Constantly "educate" your best customers as to the price/value equation - why the product is worth the price.

B.) See marketing as an investment, not a cost.

C.) Stay sensitive to the equity inherent in brand - be careful not to dilute brand identity by overextending with new products and services.

D.) Understand "the loyalty effect" - the impact on long-term profitability of retaining and growing your share of best customers.

E.) Heighten service and intelligent "one to one" contact with best customers - find creative ways to meet their need to feel "special".

F.) Build collaborations and partnerships with like minded marketers.

atmo.


William


(from the William business archives)

Yup. Yours are some fine business archives, atmo. Hey, business is business, iirc. BTW, point A is quite relevant to this discussion, isn't it? I mean, specifics would be nice, atmo.

[bostondrunk]

You've got to be joking.

Come on....
Its that 'custom fitting' experience, where three different fitters give you 3 very different set of numbers, that makes the crap shoot.......er.....frameset, worth every penny!!

BTW, Cervelos rock (back and forth, and then collapse due to bonding issues......)!

[bostondrunk]

I weighed in before weighing in prolly because I'm not inclined to take words all that personally...otherwise I would be offended and I don't have time or inclination for that. Being from Jersey and that not being an excuse from the State whose slogan is or should be "You got a problem with 'dat?" or "You talkin' to me?", I always inclined to err on the side of candor and downright impolitic affrontery.

I was just eating a Columbo yogurt. My wife buys them, I was hungry, I would not be inclined to eat one unless it was an obvious, right before hungry eyes (inclined to see this as a sexist male truism...) choice. I was just thinking that these "Lights" are too chalky, weirdly sweet in that artifical way, and definitely gelatinous. There is easily better yogurt imho. But don't like'em, don'teat'em. Should I tell my friends (or enemies, for that matter)? Should I tell Columbo that?

Whether or not I am ever rude or disobliging, the issue of manners I cannot associate with moral advantage or superiority. Sometimes we say stuff, sometimes we don't. Your call.

dbrk

Felt great waking up this morning, the world seemed right, didn't fall in the shower, found matching socks for work......just felt good about the day.
Then I read this post, and feel like an idiot again......thanks.
Now can someone please translate dbrk's opinion for me?!?!?
:crap:

[Dr. Doofus]

yo drunk

why don't we just get matching steel marinonis and blow the rest on beer?

see you at waffle house -- doof will explain dbrk to you there

no

forget that

those things are pricey now too (damn canadian dollar)

just waffle house then

[saab2000]

How does this Meivici compare to a Graftek?

[CalfeeFly]

yo drunk

why don't we just get matching steel marinonis and blow the rest on beer?

see you at waffle house -- doof will explain dbrk to you there


Bottom line if you have the legs (cat 3 sure seems like it) you will blow by a bunch of us on carbon me included! It is all about technique, ability and them pesky legs/lungs! :banana:

[bostondrunk]

yo drunk

why don't we just get matching steel marinonis and blow the rest on beer?

see you at waffle house -- doof will explain dbrk to you there

Marinoni won't build with lugs anymore. Doesn't that break the rules of the Steel religion????

[Dr. Doofus]

Marinoni won't build with lugs anymore. Doesn't that break the rules of the Steel religion????

you so ain't down wid da rizzle dizzle now, is you?

lugs are fo carbon

diff dam drunk

(and doof likes marinonis if its a 1 hr crit. stock megatube frames are stiff as snot)

[Dr. Doofus]

serotta can build good bikes

a meivici will be a good bike for its designed application -- whether that means 12cm of drop and a 140 stem on a "stock" geo on a full-out racer or 1cm of drop and a 9cm stem on a comfort geo cruiser that, hey, you've earned, so why not. fable of the bees, bro, imho.

we've done the tuna. give it a rest.

when serotta puts out its review model, it'll be a well-designed racer and the ex-pro who reviews it will say "best bike ever and worth every penny" because, in that particular instance, it will be. to do anything less would be stupid marketing. serotta is not stupid. they can build good bikes.

[Samster]

[.]

[Ahneida Ride]

Felt great waking up this morning, the world seemed right, didn't fall in the shower, found matching socks for work......just felt good about the day.
Then I read this post, and feel like an idiot again......thanks.
Now can someone please translate dbrk's opinion for me?!?!?
:crap:

Dbrk said:

When promulgating your esoteric cogitations and are articulating your superficial sentimentalitiles, sedulously avoid all polysyllabic profundity, pompous propensity, psittaceous vacuity, ventriloquial verbosity and vaniloquent vapidity.


Any Questions ?

[manet]

Dbrk said:

When promulgating your esoteric cogitations and are articulating your superficial sentimentalitiles, sedulously avoid all polysyllabic profundity, pompous propensity, psittaceous vacuity, ventriloquial verbosity and vaniloquent vapidity.


Any Questions ?

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00032CII2.01-A3CDPEGSIQM61V._SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg

[Sandy]

Dbrk said:

When promulgating your esoteric cogitations and are articulating your superficial sentimentalitiles, sedulously avoid all polysyllabic profundity, pompous propensity, psittaceous vacuity, ventriloquial verbosity and vaniloquent vapidity.


Any Questions ?

Yeah. I got a question. Where is my coloring book and my crayons?


Sandy

[Climb01742]

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00032CII2.01-A3CDPEGSIQM61V._SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg

that looks nothing like peter falk (faulk?).

[shinomaster]

You've got to be joking.

wow...more than I thought....I guess I loose track
of prices after $600...

[William]

Yup. Yours are some fine business archives, atmo. Hey, business is business, iirc. BTW, point A is quite relevant to this discussion, isn't it? I mean, specifics would be nice, atmo.

A.) Constantly "educate" your best customers as to the price/value equation - why the product is worth the price.

Well, bottom line, "educating" your customers basically means getting them to believe what you want them to believe about your product. Convince them it's worth the premium due to A, B, and C. Or, just go for the blatant rich factor; "The Jonses can't afford one, but you can."

atmo,

William

[catulle]

A.) Constantly "educate" your best customers as to the price/value equation - why the product is worth the price.

Well, bottom line, "educating" your customers basically means getting them to believe what you want them to believe about your product. Convince them it's worth the premium due to A, B, and C. Or, just go for the blatant rich factor; "The Jonses can't afford one, but you can."

atmo,

William

Candid and eloquent, Mr. William.

BTW, and totally irrelevant to William's fine post, if our hosts from Serotta are so forgiving with our opinions on their forum, shouldn't we be forgiving with their marketing? If they don't make a profit, then we won't have a forum, shall we? Different strokes for different folks, atmo. At the end of the day, you decide where to take your wallet, iirc.

[Climb01742]

i would draw a distinction here:

i would never criticize or question someone buying something expensive, be it a mei vici or a bentley. that is absolutely their preogative, and more power to_anyone_who can afford a mei vici or a bentley.

however i do think it is fair to question the price or value equation that a company sets. a company setting a price is a public business decision.

the former -- a personal choice -- is, rightly, off limits to questioning. the latter -- a business decision -- is, i think, fair game.

[catulle]

i would draw a distinction here:

i would never criticize or question someone buying something expensive, be it a mei vici or a bentley. that is absolutely their preogative, and more power to_anyone_who can afford a mei vici or a bentley.

however i do think it is fair to question the price or value equation that a company sets. a company setting a price is a public business decision.

the former -- a personal choice -- is, rightly, off limits to questioning. the latter -- a business decision -- is, i think, fair game.

Yup. Yours are some fine business archives, atmo. Hey, business is business, iirc. BTW, point A is quite relevant to this discussion, isn't it? I mean, specifics would be nice, atmo.

[andy mac]

Candid and eloquent, Mr. William.

BTW, and totally irrelevant to William's fine post, if our hosts from Serotta are so forgiving with our opinions on their forum, shouldn't we be forgiving with their marketing?



ummm, this implies their marketing has been misleading which i completely disagree with.

they made a new bike. they went out of their way to let people ride them. they even host a site where people speak unkindly of their product.

jeeeeze, how many other companies in any industry are so transparent?!?!?!


i am going to take the unpopular route here for people who may not know the history of the original poster and i think that is relevant:

Climb road a custom bike that wasn’t custom built for him. It was probably build with an ‘average’ person in mind.

He is not an average build. Quite light for his height I believe.

He is a decent recreational rider but has never been a pro or top amateur rider.

He has a very, very, VERY specific bike feel he is always searching for and is finding it hard, if not impossible to locate.

He has ridden and owned many of the world’s finest bicycles and has been somewhat unhappy with most of them.

The only reason he got to ride it because Andrew gave up his weekend and Serotta sent down a truck filled with bikes.

The only reason the weekend happened was because of this website.

This website is now a big part of many people’s lives.

This website etc costs money.

Bike feel is subjective.

If you don’t like it, don’t buy it.

[catulle]

ummm, this implies their marketing has been misleading which i completely disagree with.

they made a new bike. they went out of their way to let people ride them. they even host a site where people speak unkindly of their product.

jeeeeze, how many other companies in any industry are so transparent?!?!?!


i am going to take the unpopular route here for people who may not know the history of the original poster and i think that is relevant:

Climb road a custom bike that wasn’t custom built for him. It was probably build with an ‘average’ person in mind.

He is not an average build. Quite light for his height I believe.

He is a decent recreational rider but has never been a pro or top amateur rider.

He has a very, very, VERY specific bike feel he is always searching for and is finding it hard, if not impossible to locate.

He has ridden and owned many of the world’s finest bicycles and has been somewhat unhappy with most of them.

The only reason he got to ride it because Andrew gave up his weekend and Serotta sent down a truck filled with bikes.

The only reason the weekend happened was because of this website.

This website is now a big part of many people’s lives.

This website etc costs money.

Bike feel is subjective.

If you don’t like it, don’t buy it.

Er, I think I know the language well enough to say what I mean to say. If I mean to say that Serotta's marketing is misleading, I think I can find the words to say so. Just as I have posted that I've paid to be measured by Serotta certified people on three different occasions with three different results.

Having said that, I also know that a business is a business and it is up to each manufacturer to decide which way to follow in order to stay alive. And it isn't up to me to tell them what to do. I may like what they are doing and buy into it or not. In this particular case, it is actually difficult for me now to decide to order a Serotta custom frame, simply because I wouldn't know which size to order (out of the three I have been recommended). Thus my post could have come across as somewhat sarcastic. But never did I insinuate in any way that Serotta's marketing or anything else for that matter is misleading. To me, there is a great deal of difference between a system that is more or less perfect, and being misleading as synonymous of deceiving.

I'm all too aware that I'm here enjoying myself with a great bunch of people and I'm not paying a cent for the bandwidth I'm using; thus, I'm very grateful. Nevertheless, please note that when I want to say something, I can say it clearly. Hey, no biggie. Thanks for reading.

[andy mac]

Er, I think I know the language well enough to say what I mean to say. If I mean to say that Serotta's marketing is misleading, I think I can find the words to say so. Just as I have posted that I've paid to be measured by Serotta certified people on three different occasions with three different results.

Having said that, I also know that a business is a business and it is up to each manufacturer to decide which way to follow in order to stay alive. And it isn't up to me to tell them what to do. I may like what they are doing and buy into it or not. In this particular case, it is actually difficult for me now to decide to order a Serotta custom frame, simply because I wouldn't know which size to order (out of the three I have been recommended). Thus my post could have come across as somewhat sarcastic. But never did I insinuate in any way that Serotta's marketing or anything else for that matter is misleading. To me, there is a great deal of difference between a system that is more or less perfect, and being misleading as synonymous of deceiving.

I'm all too aware that I'm here enjoying myself with a great bunch of people and I'm not paying a cent for the bandwidth I'm using; thus I'm very grateful. Nevertheless, please note that when I want to say something, I can say it clearly. Hey, no biggie. Thanks for reading.


ok, why should we forgive their marketing?

[catulle]

ok, why should we forgive their marketing?

For whatever. If they want to charge $2,000,000 for a frame without paint and fork is up to them to do so. They are big enough to know what to do with their business. On my end, I'll know what to do with my wallet. That's all.

[Serotta PETE]

:beer: What is "something" worth...THAT is in the eye of the beholder. WHy is one frame worth 4K and another 6K? it sure is not that it makes us faster. (AND WHO SAYS the $4k FRAME is worth 4K??? (just because it is cheaper - sure does not make it a value)

Value, in my case is - I enjoy riding a SEROTTA (even if I ride very slow). The quality, engineering, support, and pleasure is there for me! What I buy is because I want it (and not to impress someone else- after all I only have one bike :) )

To me a Meivici is something I would want (surely not need) if I can see the value (FOR ME) that is all that counts. A CERVELO or a XYZ frame does not come into consideration for me - for I enjoy SEROTTA and the experience.

As to $$ for the function (value???), I have a SEPCIALIZED E5 frame that is outstanding for a fast?? spirited ride at $800 for frame (it is yours for $600)- - BUT it does not give me the same pleasure as my Serotta.
__________________________________________________ ______________

The reasons for a $4K or $6K bike is not there for everyone - in fact not to 98% of the population!!! Walk up and tell someone what you spent on your bike and they might start a fund for you to go see someone at the funny farm.
__________________________________________________ ______________
Forget what the price is - is the item something that you want? We all have "wants" they might be 20K plus jewelry, 100K plus cars, 1 Million plus homes,,,,etc....What makes them worth it - the fact that you want them!

Value is something that is personal to each person!! Lets respect others purchases. I envy the folks out there who have a Meivici AND I want a ride and also some good red wine with them :beer:

I leave all the technical stuff to Mike at Cyclesport,& (Steve, Andrew, Jason, Kelly, Ben, and the gang at Serotta). they make me happy with each and every purchase....Thanks for listening to my rant...

Off to ride SPOKES Meivicie........................and drink his wine.

I want a MEIVICI and Flydhest's legs...

PETE

[catulle]

:beer: What is "something" worth...THAT is in the eye of the beholder. WHy is one frame worth 4K and another 6K? it sure is not that it makes us faster. (AND WHO SAYS the $4k FRAME is worth 4K??? (just because it is cheaper - sure does not make it a value)

Value, in my case is - I enjoy riding a SEROTTA (even if I ride very slow). The quality, engineering, support, and pleasure is there for me! What I buy is because I want it (and not to impress someone else- after all I only have one bike :) )

To me a Meivici is something I would want (surely not need) if I can see the value (FOR ME) that is all that counts. A CERVELO or a XYZ frame does not come into consideration for me - for I enjoy SEROTTA and the experience.

As to $$ for the function (value???), I have a SEPCIALIZED E5 frame that is outstanding for a fast?? spirited ride at $800 for frame (it is yours for $600)- - BUT it does not give me the same pleasure as my Serotta.
__________________________________________________ ______________

The reasons for a $4K or $6K bike is not there for everyone - in fact not to 98% of the population!!! Walk up and tell someone what you spent on your bike and they might start a fund for you to go see someone at the funny farm.
__________________________________________________ ______________
Forget what the price is - is the item something that you want? We all have "wants" they might be 20K plus jewelry, 100K plus cars, 1 Million plus homes,,,,etc....What makes them worth it - the fact that you want them!

Value is something that is personal to each person!! Lets respect others purchases. I envy the folks out there who have a Meivici AND I want a ride and also some good red wine with them :beer:

I leave all the technical stuff to Mike at Cyclesport,& (Steve, Andrew, Jason, Kelly, Ben, and the gang at Serotta). they make me happy with each and every purchase....Thanks for listening to my rant...

Off to ride SPOKES Meivicie........................and drink his wine.

I want a MEIVICI and Flydhest's legs...

PETE

I couldn't agree more. To each his own, it's all unknown (B. Dylan or something, circa 1968). I'm going to watch Orange County Choppers, bye bye.

[Brian Smith]

How does this Meivici compare to a Graftek?

Now I know that some folks around here know their history enough to find the humor in that one. Graftek, ha.
Hey, maybe we should ask Stetina. He's got an Ottrot so far, so that should get us close, maybe someone could convince him that his 2-year old frame "must be getting soft" by now...

My opinion, for what it's worth, is that a Meivici is worth RIGHT NOW what it costs RIGHT NOW because it is hotstuff and because it is made by Serotta as the ultimate in carbon frames. Since it is a Serotta, that means, for one thing, that it's made of exclusive and proprietary materials which happen to be very expensive, and for another thing that it is obsessed over by a good number of skilled people, from the design stage, through testing, throughout construction, and through minute detail finishing work until it's perfect enough to let out the door. These things are not all immediately apparent during a demo test ride, and though Climb's honest impressions are not all ecstatically favorable to the demo frame/bike, they are his true impressions. They are not a problem for Serotta, and I think they are welcome here, speaking at least for myself. I'm sure there are a lot of people eager to hear from owners of production Meivicis and eager to try one themselves. Heck, I'm a "metal guy" and I'd be lying if I said I wasn't curious to try one out tailored to my desires.

I certainly DON'T feel that way about a Gra-flex as I've heard some of my elders call them! Ha.

[William]

I don't recall anyone saying Serotta's marketing was misleading. They picked their niche and they are going after it. Marketing baby.

I agree with Climb, if someone chooses to spend their dough on a Meivici, hey, have fun. But company marketing is public domain, and as such can be discussed....atmo.

As far as dissing Climb's opinion, that's crap. He's entitled to his own opinion. I guess since 99.8% of Serotta customers aren't pros either, we better discount their opinions as well.

The argument that "it wasn't tuned to him" is weak. By that statement, no one who rides a demo will get a true feel of the Meivici since it's a custom and won't be "tuned" to their personal characteristics. Then you'll have to discount everyone's opinion (except the lucky one or two folks who might fit the custom specs). :rolleyes:

Hey, group hug now.

William

[Smiley]

Well said Sir Brian Smith . I too want one just because its a SEROTTA and I know what that means in terms of build , engineering and warranty . Thank you .

[djg]

Dbrk said:

When promulgating your esoteric cogitations and are articulating your superficial sentimentalitiles, sedulously avoid all polysyllabic profundity, pompous propensity, psittaceous vacuity, ventriloquial verbosity and vaniloquent vapidity.


Any Questions ?

What's the "are" for in front of "articulating"?

[SoCalSteve]

Er, I think I know the language well enough to say what I mean to say. If I mean to say that Serotta's marketing is misleading, I think I can find the words to say so. Just as I have posted that I've paid to be measured by Serotta certified people on three different occasions with three different results.

Having said that, I also know that a business is a business and it is up to each manufacturer to decide which way to follow in order to stay alive. And it isn't up to me to tell them what to do. I may like what they are doing and buy into it or not. In this particular case, it is actually difficult for me now to decide to order a Serotta custom frame, simply because I wouldn't know which size to order (out of the three I have been recommended). Thus my post could have come across as somewhat sarcastic. But never did I insinuate in any way that Serotta's marketing or anything else for that matter is misleading. To me, there is a great deal of difference between a system that is more or less perfect, and being misleading as synonymous of deceiving.

I'm all too aware that I'm here enjoying myself with a great bunch of people and I'm not paying a cent for the bandwidth I'm using; thus, I'm very grateful. Nevertheless, please note that when I want to say something, I can say it clearly. Hey, no biggie. Thanks for reading.

You can look at this in a few ways.

1st: Do like Douglas Brooks (DBRK). He owns 50 or so bikes and he claims that none of them are exactly the same, geo wise.

2nd: Buy 3 bikes, one of each size that the three fitters found suited you.

3rd: Compromise in the middle of all three. I bet I will not get any arguement here that you can adjust a bike a cm here and a cm there. Longer seatpost showing, shorter stem, whatever...

And, just to play devils advocate...Dont you own a bike or two already? Do they fit you? Are you happy with the geometry of them? Why dont you take what you have that fits you properly now, look over the three fitters spec's and pick appropriatley.

Good luck!

Steve

[dbrk]

Dbrk said:

When promulgating your esoteric cogitations and are articulating your superficial sentimentalitiles, sedulously avoid all polysyllabic profundity, pompous propensity, psittaceous vacuity, ventriloquial verbosity and vaniloquent vapidity.


Any Questions ?


First, everyone knows that Ray was poking fun at me and that this "quotation" is a joke, right? Gosh, I hope so. I may be a pedantic dolt but...hmmm...I'd better not finish that sentence.

I will say this: Meivici sets a new price threshold for carbon custom frames and Serotta should be prepared for folks to say it's "worth" the price or that other frames, a third the cost but made of the same material are "as good" or "better". It's gonna happen. That it happens here, among real friends, fans, and clients, is likely a good thing.

pedantic d[olt]brk

[flydhest]

but if Anthony Bourdain could make you a tuna sandwich in your own kitchen . . .

[shinomaster]

that everyone complained about how much the ottrott cost when it was first introduced. Now it seems like a bargain when compared to the Meivici. :banana: What a great deal!

[Ahneida Ride]

A reliable source once told me what Serotta pays for a Legend Ti tube
set. Just the tubes !!!! I said WOW !!!!!

If this be the case, and I do believe it is, Serotta has the Legend priced
rather reasonably.

I have no idea how much a Meivici tube set goes for, or how much
Serotta spent in design and engineering. I suspect it was considerable.
One must take this into consideration.

[Ahneida Ride]

First, everyone knows that Ray was poking fun at me and that this "quotation" is a joke, right? Gosh, I hope so. I may be a pedantic dolt but...hmmm...I'd better not finish that sentence.

pedantic d[olt]brk

Ha Ha Ha Ha :D :D :D :D ;) :p :) :rolleyes:

[Climb01742]

i just reread my original post. it's funny that some folks got a bit bent when i "only" said the mei vici was as good as the best carbon frames i've ever ridden. is the only acceptable view of the mei vici is one that says its the best thing ever built? why get bent when it's as good as anything out there? there's no such bike that is "the best" for everyone.

and i still believe that if something is priced at virtually twice what its competitors are, it's fair to ask what that extra dough buys you.

[Johny]

i just reread my original post. it's funny that some folks got a bit bent when i "only" said the mei vici was as good as the best carbon frames i've ever ridden. is the only acceptable view of the mei vici is one that says its the best thing ever built? why get bent when it's as good as anything out there? there's no such bike that is "the best" for everyone.

and i still believe that if something is priced at virtually twice what its competitors are, it's fair to ask what that extra dough buys you.

Climb, are you still in the marketing business? :)

[Climb01742]

Climb, are you still in the marketing business? :)

some days i wonder, johny. (as do my clients. ;) )

[catulle]

that everyone complained about how much the ottrott cost when it was first introduced. Now it seems like a bargain when compared to the Meivici. :banana: What a great deal!

When you think that the cheapest Patek Philippe watch presently goes for $12,000 (excepting a steel case and bracelet with quartz movement ladies model going for some $7,000), then the price of these bikes make sense. It makes even more sense when Patek Philippe recently moved to larger quarters to expand production, and sales have about doubled during the past five years (and prices have also steadily increased). Of course, if you want a watch to keep time dependably and accurately, don't buy a Patek Philippe (Caution: I am NOT implying that Serotta is or is not dependable or accurate or anything else for that matter).

In other words, the economies of the US, China, the Middle East, Japan, and other smaller Asian and European locations are soaking up high-end, or simply expensive, goods to no end. So, if people are willing to pay any amount of money for a product they perceive is worth it, hey, we want a free world, don't we? Of course, in our case, some of us heavy users would want to know exactly why pay more for a new frame. We are free to ask, and the manufacturer is free to answer or not. I think it is pretty simple, ain't it?

[72gmc]

Cresting "that" hill at a certain unprecedented speed with zip remaining in my legs and the momentary blissful delusion that I'm a much more powerful rider: that's worth at least 7 grand plus a Chorus kit. I think I'll put the wife's car on craigslist.

[Skrawny]

Cresting "that" hill at a certain unprecedented speed with zip remaining in my legs and the momentary blissful delusion that I'm a much more powerful rider: that's worth at least 7 grand plus a Chorus kit. I think I'll put the wife's car on craigslist.


Word!

[Climb01742]

Cresting "that" hill at a certain unprecedented speed with zip remaining in my legs and the momentary blissful delusion that I'm a much more powerful rider: that's worth at least 7 grand plus a Chorus kit. I think I'll put the wife's car on craigslist.

if it does that for you, "word" too.

[catulle]

Cresting "that" hill at a certain unprecedented speed with zip remaining in my legs and the momentary blissful delusion that I'm a much more powerful rider: that's worth at least 7 grand plus a Chorus kit. I think I'll put the wife's car on craigslist.

A Chorus kit on a Meivici? If I have Record on my bicycles, and if I'd pay the bucks needed for a MeiVici, I'd have Record on my MeiVici, atmo. :beer:

[Zard]

The MeiVici Code Coming soon to a theatre near you.

Ha Ha. Good One.

[Serotta_Andrew]

For whatever. If they want to charge $2,000,000 for a frame without paint and fork is up to them to do so. They are big enough to know what to do with their business. On my end, I'll know what to do with my wallet. That's all.


Paint "is" an option with the Meivici, you can tint the frame and select any level 1 paint!!! http://www.serotta.com/pages/schemes.html

has anyone checked out the new pictures in the paint scheme section??

[Grant McLean]

http://www.serotta.com/pages/schemes.html

has anyone checked out the new pictures in the paint scheme section??

That's a cool feature. I need that kind of thing to see what the examples
will actually look like. I don't have an imagination. I need to see it to
believe it. Looks great.

g

[davids]

has anyone checked out the new pictures in the paint scheme section??
That's great! Keep 'em coming.

p.s. That key lime green painted-tube Ottrott needs white tape and a white saddle!

[mls]

Is record as good a value as chorus?

[CalfeeFly]

No but then I bought it. :D

Chorus works as well and weighs a little more. Record has more bling if you are into bling. I am. :banana: I figure I won't live long enough to worry about it.

[mls]

I guess ill stick w/chorus and lugged steel bikes.
I just wish i ordered a csi when i had a chance.

[Serotta_Andrew]

That's great! Keep 'em coming.

p.s. That key lime green painted-tube Ottrott needs white tape and a white saddle!

Hey, that is what I said... white tape and white saddle and maybe a white tyre..just because... anyone have a set of those Vittoria white wall open corsa tyres!!

[Dr. Doofus]

I guess ill stick w/chorus and lugged steel bikes.
I just wish i ordered a csi when i had a chance.


one word

zanconato

[Too Tall]

Dorothy...uh I mean MLS, tap your heels three times and say that again.

[mls]

should see my zank in a few weeks i hope ?