OT: Multi room home audio in new house - help!?!

[druptight]

Alright - so this is obviously OT, but there's not much this place can't seem to answer so I figured I'd give it a shot.

So I recently moved into a new to me home (built in 2003), and it has 4 sets of speakers in the kitchen, dining room, living room, and out on the back deck that are all wired to one single set of +/- poles in my den where one would presumably put their receiver and be the central point for all audio to originate to those speakers. Each speaker has a wall knob to adjust the volume from zero on up. Unfortunately, this is about the end of what I factually know about the system. I don't know how it's wired behind the walls and as much as I've googled can only figure out so much. I haven't removed the knobs yet to figure out if they adjust for impedance or not.

The room where these terminate, there are no hard wired speakers. My receiver is a yamaha rx-v367, and I have it set for simple 2 speaker stereo sound. Hooked up to the back of the receiver I have a set of speakers for that room where the receiver sits, and then a second set of wires that go to the wall which distributes out to the 4 sets of speakers.

I'm having 2 issues, one is that the receiver has gone wonky, and I believe it's because it's protecting itself from the power draw of the 5 sets of speakers hooked up to it. As long as I always leave it on it works, but if I turn it off then try to turn it back on it seems to send itself into protection mode, and the only way to get it working is to leave it on for a while set to one of the inputs that's not being used until it "warms up" then it seems to continue working when switched to one of the active inputs.

My second issue, which is rather understandable, is that the speakers in the 4 satellite rooms are pretty quiet, while the speakers in the main room are fairly normal volume. Problem is the way I have it set up if you want decent volumes in the 4 satellite rooms you have to have it blaring in the main room.

OK - so my question is, with wiring set up the way it is, what hardware to I need to properly run this system. My guess is that I need a receiver with 2 zones, zone A for the den and Zone B for the satellite rooms, then I need some sort of amplifier to send the zone B signal to the 4 satellite rooms. My problem is I'm having a bear of a time finding out if my assumptions are correct and if so, what sorts of pieces of hardware I need.

If you made it this far, thanks for reading and I welcome any real world assistance! :beer:

[Tickdoc]

sorry dude, other than home audio repair, the only thing I really suck at is bicycle repair :~)

[rnhood]

Most distributed audio systems are built on the 70 Volt platform, although there are others. But the 70V system is pretty much the defacto standard in America. Chances are your system is configured as a 70V system, and the previous owner just took the amplifier with him when he left. You would need to put a 70V amp back in the system, and drive it from the "pre" or aux" outputs of your receiver. You would not be using the amplifier portion of the receiver.

A 70V amplifier doesn't need to be very expensive - although larger commercial amps can be pricey. A search will yield many models at various power levels.

Having said this, I still recommend that you get a local audio/visual type person to come over and check that this is a 70V platform.

[Ken Robb]

Can you ask the previous owner how he handled it or who installed the speakers and wiring? I know my favorite audio/video store could make an educated guess without even looking at the house. He would certainly confirm what you have before recommending new equipment.

This shop does lots of high-end BIG systems but they are happy to help me with my simple 5-way surround audio/video system. Try a similar shop in your area if you can.

[druptight]

Can you ask the previous owner how he handled it or who installed the speakers and wiring? I know my favorite audio/video store could make an educated guess without even looking at the house. He would certainly confirm what you have before recommending new equipment.

This shop does lots of high-end BIG systems but they are happy to help me with my simple 5-way surround audio/video system. Try a similar shop in your area if you can.

I did dig up an email of the former owners. They bought the house about 1.5 years after build, so they might not have the info of who set it up, but should have an idea of how they made it run for about 10 years. Will update thread if I hear back from them.

[druptight]

Most distributed audio systems are built on the 70 Volt platform, although there are others. But the 70V system is pretty much the defacto standard in America. Chances are your system is configured as a 70V system, and the previous owner just took the amplifier with him when he left. You would need to put a 70V amp back in the system, and drive it from the "pre" or aux" outputs of your receiver. You would not be using the amplifier portion of the receiver.

A 70V amplifier doesn't need to be very expensive - although larger commercial amps can be pricey. A search will yield many models at various power levels.

Having said this, I still recommend that you get a local audio/visual type person to come over and check that this is a 70V platform.

Thanks, I'll look into this!

[shovelhd]

Pay for my trip up to Kittery and a lobster and I'll get you sorted out :)

You can go 70v but it's overkill and the sound quality isn't great through transformers. What 70v really brings you is very long signal wire lengths. You don't need that.

The key is, what is in the wall and how is it connected. If the walls all have the proper impedance L-pad, then it's about how they are wired to the receiver. With four speakers per channel, two should be connected in parallel, and each parallel pair should be connected in series. If everything is connected in parallel, that could overload your receiver and send it into protection mode. That would cause reduced volume as well. That said, sharing the power across 8 speakers is never going to be as loud as the main pair, all things equal. The cheap way to fix that is to add a separate stereo power amplifier for the other rooms that has at least a gain or master volume control. There are two ways to set this up, depending on the line outputs available from your receiver, and whether you want the remote rooms to track the main room.

[druptight]

The key is, what is in the wall and how is it connected. If the walls all have the proper impedance L-pad, then it's about how they are wired to the receiver. With four speakers per channel, two should be connected in parallel, and each parallel pair should be connected in series. If everything is connected in parallel, that could overload your receiver and send it into protection mode. That would cause reduced volume as well. That said, sharing the power across 8 speakers is never going to be as loud as the main pair, all things equal. The cheap way to fix that is to add a separate stereo power amplifier for the other rooms that has at least a gain or master volume control. There are two ways to set this up, depending on the line outputs available from your receiver, and whether you want the remote rooms to track the main room.

I think I need to pop off the volume/impedence pads and make sure they're switched appropriately for the number of speakers connected right?

I guess my problem with the wiring is that they're already buried behind the walls. Does this mean I need to start detaching things one at a time with some sort of sound coming through and see what it does to other speakers? The best solution for me is one where all the power and audio sources for the speakers come from the spot where the receiver is currently sitting and the speakers currently originate.

I'm not particularly interested in putting in a 2nd amp, as there's no convenient spot to store one near the other speakers.

[awdwon]

I moved into a house 5 years ago that had a few pairs of speakers wired up in the kitchen and living room, not as fancy with the knobs on the walls. My Cambridge Audio receiver at the time could handle two separate sets of speakers and it was quite nice. I had eventually wanted music in more rooms and wanted better speaker placement. Enter Sonos. The price of this stuff now and the amount of content available is unbelievable. I've got a bunch of the Play speakers and a Connect hooked up to my PrimaLuna Prologue with my turntable and it's the happiest I've been with my home music setup ever. Just some food for thought in case you haven't considered the Sonos.

[shovelhd]

The first thing is to figure out what is in the walls. What is the speaker impedance or are they 70v? If 70v what tap are they on? What kind of pot is in the wall? What is the impedance? How is it jumpered? How are they all connected to the receiver?

The power amp can go on top of your receiver, or anywhere else within reach of a line level signal and the speaker terminations.

[druptight]

The first thing is to figure out what is in the walls. What is the speaker impedance or are they 70v? If 70v what tap are they on? What kind of pot is in the wall? What is the impedance? How is it jumpered? How are they all connected to the receiver?

The power amp can go on top of your receiver, or anywhere else within reach of a line level signal and the speaker terminations.

I will do my best to figure out these answers, at least for the questions I understand, and will snap some pics.

W/R/T connection to receiver - all 4 sets of speakers are wired to the one +/- set of poles that terminates near the receiver. They had speaker wires hanging from them when I moved in, so I hooked them up to the L/R poles on my receiver along with the two speakers that I use in that room - 2 wires per L/R link up on the back of the receiver.

[Peter P.]

One way to identify which wire goes where is to disconnect all the speakers.

I'll assume all 4 pairs of wires are somehow bundled together at the back of the receiver i.e., 4 positive wires and 4 negative wires. Separate them, but you might want to tag them with tape, + vs. -.

It would help if we could see what the speakers looked like. Better yet; if you removed the speakers from the wall/ceiling, you might find labeling indicating they're typical 8 or 6 ohm speakers, or you might find the 25/70V matching transformer which indicates it's a "PA" type arrangement.

Anyway, assuming the "4 pairs" scenario above, turn the volume controls up to max.

Connect a 9V battery to one + and one - wire at the receiver end.

Then go to each wire at the speaker end and place a voltmeter on DC volts. You should find one of the speaker wires reads the 9VDC from the battery. Label the pair #1 + and -.

Repeat the procedure until you've identified and tagged all 4 pairs.

Connect each pair of wires, one at a time, to your receiver's second pair of speaker outputs and see if it plays nice with the pair running in your room. Add a second pair to the first and continue the test. If the receiver behaves properly until you add the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th pair of speakers, it's likely the impedance is too low causing the receiver to shut down. That indicates the owner had some other connection method to drive the system. We'll figure that out if and when we get to that point.

[druptight]

One way to identify which wire goes where is to disconnect all the speakers.

I'll assume all 4 pairs of wires are somehow bundled together at the back of the receiver i.e., 4 positive wires and 4 negative wires. Separate them, but you might want to tag them with tape, + vs. -.

Here's the problem, I have one input point, one plus and one minus connection in a wall box that goes to all 4 sets of speakers. There's no way for me to go one at a time. They're somehow wired in series or parallel or both behind the wall with only one input point for me.

I do plan to take a wall volume box off and a speaker off and I'll photograph what I find behind plus any info I get off the inside. I can do the same for the one box in the wall that leads to all 4 speakers. Will be telling if there's 8 wires culminating at that point or just 2.

[jlwdm]

I don't understand your wiring set up.

I run my whole house system from my game room receiver which also is used for the surround sound in the game room. I have a Marantz SR 5009 receiver and a Vanco SS6 6 zone impedance matching speaker selector. Works great although I have not used the system except to make sure it works.

Jeff

[Scuzzer]

Just in case it hasn't been mentioned yet, don't continue to force your receiver to drive that load. It's already given you warnings that it doesn't like it.

[54ny77]

for the speaker issue, you might look into a used niles si-1230 amp. it has a good amount of juice especially if your wire runs are long. i picked one up to deal with a similar layout as you've described (prior owner of house did a crazy multi-room/speaker setup that i couldn't for the life of me figure out). use your receiver or whatever else to feed into that via the main bus input. i'm guessing, since you said you have wall controllers (do they have power as well?) that you may need a power amp as well. in other words, you may need a lot of hardware to make it run properly, not just hook up the speakers to a random receiver.

[vav]

Kittery ME?? You still commuting to Boston?

[josephr]

Here's the problem, I have one input point, one plus and one minus connection in a wall box that goes to all 4 sets of speakers. There's no way for me to go one at a time. They're somehow wired in series or parallel or both behind the wall with only one input point for me.

I do plan to take a wall volume box off and a speaker off and I'll photograph what I find behind plus any info I get off the inside. I can do the same for the one box in the wall that leads to all 4 speakers. Will be telling if there's 8 wires culminating at that point or just 2.

Not sure which Yamaha receiver you have, but the older receivers with a speaker-B output process the same surround sound enhancement before the signal is amplified. That is to say, when in surround sound mode, whatever goes to speaker-A (Front Left, Front Right) also goes to speaker-B (Left, Right)...so it filters out the bass and rear channel portions. I found that I'd have to turn off the surround sound processing to get a full signal to the speaker-B channels.

[Web1111a]

Do the volume controls have a make and model number?

This can help figure out a lot about how it may be wired

To be clear there is only one pair if wires in the room where the receiver is

[Scuzzer]

Yeah, he's got one pair of wires driving multiple speakers. We don't know if the wall units are L-Pads or 70v units. Until then it's all speculation.

[druptight]

OK - let's try to end the speculation!

Took some things apart, here's what we found:

We've got 4 of these suckers (I believe Niles VCS-2D), one for each remote pair of speakers (here's the manual http://www.nilesaudio.com/images/legacy/manuals/vcs2dman.pdf ):

http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb465/druptight/Home%20Audio/IMG_6218.jpg (http://s1207.photobucket.com/user/druptight/media/Home%20Audio/IMG_6218.jpg.html)

Looks like this on the inside:
http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb465/druptight/Home%20Audio/IMG_6215.jpg (http://s1207.photobucket.com/user/druptight/media/Home%20Audio/IMG_6215.jpg.html)

http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb465/druptight/Home%20Audio/IMG_6225.jpg (http://s1207.photobucket.com/user/druptight/media/Home%20Audio/IMG_6225.jpg.html)

http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb465/druptight/Home%20Audio/IMG_6214.jpg (http://s1207.photobucket.com/user/druptight/media/Home%20Audio/IMG_6214.jpg.html)

Each one has input from the Amp/reciever:
http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb465/druptight/Home%20Audio/IMG_6217.jpg (http://s1207.photobucket.com/user/druptight/media/Home%20Audio/IMG_6217.jpg.html)

and output to the speakers:
http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb465/druptight/Home%20Audio/IMG_6216.jpg (http://s1207.photobucket.com/user/druptight/media/Home%20Audio/IMG_6216.jpg.html)

And everything terminates here:
http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb465/druptight/Home%20Audio/IMG_6229.jpg (http://s1207.photobucket.com/user/druptight/media/Home%20Audio/IMG_6229.jpg.html)


W/R/T the speakers, I'm not too sure how to remove the screen on the one set of in ceiling speakers, but the other three sets are:

A pair of Infinity RS 1001 (google suggests 50W, 6 ohms):
http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb465/druptight/Home%20Audio/f3fd7d53-3496-4cff-86be-7b86703faa02.jpg (http://s1207.photobucket.com/user/druptight/media/Home%20Audio/f3fd7d53-3496-4cff-86be-7b86703faa02.jpg.html)

A pair of Niles OS-6 (per google, 100W, 8 ohms):
http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb465/druptight/Home%20Audio/IMG_6233.jpg (http://s1207.photobucket.com/user/druptight/media/Home%20Audio/IMG_6233.jpg.html)

and a pair of Energy Take 5HB-1 (which appear to be from some sort of surround sound setup and 100W, 8 ohms):
http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb465/druptight/Home%20Audio/IMG_6226.jpg (http://s1207.photobucket.com/user/druptight/media/Home%20Audio/IMG_6226.jpg.html)

[Scuzzer]

We've got 4 of these suckers (I believe Niles VCS-2D), one for each remote pair of speakers

Yay! They're impedance matching transformers so you should be able to drive your speakers with a reasonable amp if everything is wired correctly. Looks like there are jumpers that set the actual impedance load.

When you install the VCS-2D-IM you will adjust a set of jumpers to set the impedance based on the total number of speakers you will be using. As with all Nilesｮ products, the installation instructions are very thorough and easy to follow.

[Peter P.]

Thanks for the photos and PDF.

The original homeowner used his system to run ONLY one pair of speakers at a time. The other 3 volume controls were turned off. Turning the other volume controls off should alleviate any problems such as yours. MAYBE the owner got away with running 2 or 3 of the 4 speaker pairs at a time but at one point he should have experienced what you're experiencing.

If you pull off the wall plate with the single pair of binding posts, you'll probably find all 4 pairs of speaker connections paralleled onto the backside.

The other scenario is the original owner never had speakers in the room where the binding posts are, but merely put the electronics there. His receiver ran ONLY the 4 pairs of speakers connected to the binding posts. To prove the theory, disconnect the speakers in the room and connect ONLY your main speaker outputs to the binding posts.

Your 2-zone theory is the third option. Your main piece of electronics would need an output for a second zone. Or, if your receiver has a low level output such as a preamp output or tape recorder, you could use that signal connected to a separate integrated amp to drive the 4 pairs of speakers.

[Web1111a]

It would be good to see what is behind the plate

My gut is all those wired are parralled together

Back in the day a speaker switcher or a amp and speaker switcher would be the way to do this

The speaker switcher would also have basically a resistor to keep the impedance up

[druptight]

The other scenario is the original owner never had speakers in the room where the binding posts are, but merely put the electronics there. His receiver ran ONLY the 4 pairs of speakers connected to the binding posts. To prove the theory, disconnect the speakers in the room and connect ONLY your main speaker outputs to the binding posts.

Your 2-zone theory is the third option. Your main piece of electronics would need an output for a second zone. Or, if your receiver has a low level output such as a preamp output or tape recorder, you could use that signal connected to a separate integrated amp to drive the 4 pairs of speakers.

If these are my options, which is sort of where I figured I'd wind up, I could just always run my TV audio in that room out of the TV speakers and only hook the receiver up to my turntable/wifi audio sent out to the 4 zones.

Alternatively, I'm interested in the last paragraph. This is what the receiver back looks like:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/914auxdSzuL._SL1500_.jpg

Could I hook the "audio out" rca cables to some sort of AMP to power the other 4 rooms? If so - and I think this may be my best option, what piece of equipment is this Amp? Search as I may, there's a million different options and the technical specs on them are all latin to me - not sure what I'm looking for. I assume some sort of powerful 2 channel amp?

I could also just grab some sort of receiver with a zone B, but those appear to be about $300 minimum.

EDIT: Audio out on my Yamaha receiver will only send out analog audio - so none of my HDMI or TV signals would go out, just my incoming turntable and wifi audio. This still may be enough for me, would only prevent from say - listening to a game while out on the patio or while in the kitchen cooking. Would still need some sort of amp to take that signal and amplify it out to the 4 sets of speakers.

[druptight]

It would be good to see what is behind the plate

My gut is all those wired are parralled together

Back in the day a speaker switcher or a amp and speaker switcher would be the way to do this

The speaker switcher would also have basically a resistor to keep the impedance up

I literally went on a wild goose chase around the house last night, hoping I'd find some sort of speaker switcher central Niles location somewhere in a closet, but came up empty. I'll unscrew that plate tonight.

[shovelhd]

The mystery as to how the speakers are wired together remains. Those are good quality pads, but if they are all wired together in parallel they are presenting less than a 2 ohm load to the receiver, which most cannot handle. Pull the plate with the banana jacks to solve the mystery.

[shovelhd]

Could I hook the "audio out" rca cables to some sort of AMP to power the other 4 rooms? If so - and I think this may be my best option, what piece of equipment is this Amp? Search as I may, there's a million different options and the technical specs on them are all latin to me - not sure what I'm looking for. I assume some sort of powerful 2 channel amp.

That's exactly what I suggested at the beginning of this thread. You can use any old tag sale integrated amp or receiver. If you want to buy new, I installed a lot of Audiosource AMP-100's in home theatre systems. They are cheap and work well.

[druptight]

That's exactly what I suggested at the beginning of this thread. You can use any old tag sale integrated amp or receiver. If you want to buy new, I installed a lot of Audiosource AMP-100's in home theatre systems. They are cheap and work well.

My only problem here would remain that I couldn't send my incoming HDMI/digital sound out through that output - just my incoming audio from turntable/airplay.

Audiosource seems to have amps that can take an incoming amplified speaker line, then send it out, like the AMP 210, but that appears to be a little pricey.

[josephr]

call the dude you bought the house from and tell him this is a part of the audio system that came with the house. You need it to make it work.


http://www.nilesaudio.com/product.php?prodID=ZR-8630AV&recordID=Multizone%20Receiver&categoryID=Multizone%20Products&prdcdID=FG00934

[druptight]

Something like this might be just the ticket:

http://www.amazon.com/4-ZONE-Speaker-Selector-Switcher-Control/dp/B003ED2DZA/ref=sr_1_7?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1446039182&sr=1-7&keywords=multi+zone+receivers

Receiver out to this,

Then my 4 sets of speakers to one output on here, and my other set for the room with the receiver goes to a 2nd output on here. Alternatively, if I find that all my speakers terminate at that one wall plate, I can hook them up to something like this independently.

[shovelhd]

My only problem here would remain that I couldn't send my incoming HDMI/digital sound out through that output - just my incoming audio from turntable/airplay.

Audiosource seems to have amps that can take an incoming amplified speaker line, then send it out, like the AMP 210, but that appears to be a little pricey.

Why not?

You can get outboard speaker-line converters but you don't need them. You don't need a speaker switch either unless you want to be able to control all rooms from the same place.

[druptight]

Why not?

You can get outboard speaker-line converters but you don't need them. You don't need a speaker switch either unless you want to be able to control all rooms from the same place.

Well - I should say I can't with my current receiver. The "Audio out" jack on the yamaha only distributes audio from analog sources (per the manual). Any "digital" sourced audio (HDMI) has to go out through the amplified speaker hook ups.

[shovelhd]

Well - I should say I can't with my current receiver. The "Audio out" jack on the yamaha only distributes audio from analog sources (per the manual). Any "digital" sourced audio (HDMI) has to go out through the amplified speaker hook ups.

Serves you right for buying a Yamaha :). What source is driving the HDMI audio? If it is a set top box you can always feed the receiver via the L-R outputs.

[Peter P.]

That's exactly what I suggested at the beginning of this thread. You can use any old tag sale integrated amp or receiver. If you want to buy new, I installed a lot of Audiosource AMP-100's in home theatre systems. They are cheap and work well.

Exactly. The audio out the red/white audio jacks should be analog. Get ANYTHING, another receiver, an integrated amp, whatever. Connect the audio out to any of the inputs and you should be set. You could buy the speaker selector you pictured but you'd have to break out that one pair of binding posts to all four sets of speakers, which may necessitate a trip to the big box hardware store for the proper wall plate connection and a little drywall cutting to accommodate a larger outlet box.

I'd still incrementally test adding pairs of those 4 pair speakers to your Main speaker outputs to see if running just the 4 pairs without a pair in the room, will work.

[druptight]

The mystery as to how the speakers are wired together remains. Those are good quality pads, but if they are all wired together in parallel they are presenting less than a 2 ohm load to the receiver, which most cannot handle. Pull the plate with the banana jacks to solve the mystery.

Mystery solved - nothing is wired in parallel - each one goes from the box with banana jacks to the wall controller, then to the speakers, individually:

http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb465/druptight/Home%20Audio/IMG_6237.jpg (http://s1207.photobucket.com/user/druptight/media/Home%20Audio/IMG_6237.jpg.html)

I guess I just need to decide what my best bet is to get all my incoming audio headed out to those speakers, including HDMI. Seems like maybe a 2 zone reciever, but in the mean time I've got a spare receiver I can use.

Serves you right for buying a Yamaha . What source is driving the HDMI audio? If it is a set top box you can always feed the receiver via the L-R outputs.

HDMI is coming from various sources - set top box, roku box, and a DVD player I haven't hooked up yet.

I already tried to feed the audio with the L-R outputs, but you can't have the receiver pulling video from HDMI and audio from L/R at the same time.

Seems I know what I need to know - I think I'm between getting that 4 channel switch I posted earlier and using one output for the 4 sets, and one for the in room speakers OR just getting a new multi-zone receiver.

FWIW, I did hear back from the previous owner and he said he just had everything hooked up to a receiver and it worked for him - haven't replied yet to see if it was multi zone or what.

I appreciate all the feedback and any further insights will be appreciated as well.

Thanks for joining me on this wild goose chase! :help:

[josephr]

Mystery solved - nothing is wired in parallel - each one goes from the box with banana jacks to the wall controller, then to the speakers, individually:

http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb465/druptight/Home%20Audio/IMG_6237.jpg (http://s1207.photobucket.com/user/druptight/media/Home%20Audio/IMG_6237.jpg.html)

I guess I just need to decide what my best bet is to get all my incoming audio headed out to those speakers, including HDMI. Seems like maybe a 2 zone reciever, but in the mean time I've got a spare receiver I can use.



HDMI is coming from various sources - set top box, roku box, and a DVD player I haven't hooked up yet.

I already tried to feed the audio with the L-R outputs, but you can't have the receiver pulling video from HDMI and audio from L/R at the same time.

Seems I know what I need to know - I think I'm between getting that 4 channel switch I posted earlier and using one output for the 4 sets, and one for the in room speakers OR just getting a new multi-zone receiver.

FWIW, I did hear back from the previous owner and he said he just had everything hooked up to a receiver and it worked for him - haven't replied yet to see if it was multi zone or what.

I appreciate all the feedback and any further insights will be appreciated as well.

Thanks for joining me on this wild goose chase! :help:

Just make sure one of these rooms is a bike room -- and, we all know, bikes are happiest when its Led Zeppelin played at an excessive volume!