The lost art of tying and soldering wheels

[EPOJoe]

Anyone still doing this? If so, are you noticing any improvement in wheel performance?

[11.4]

Flames of hell, erupt!

The only thing you didn't ask is whether T&S works better with tubular or clincher rims.

There have been countless threads, mostly very vociferous, in this forum. Search and ye shall find. And find. And find. And find.

[malcolm]

I bought some used DT Swiss Mon Chasseral wheels a few years back and they were tied and soldiered. Don't know I can tell any difference. They are nice wheels though.

Back in the day they were very common. I almost never see it done any more.

[tv_vt]

I did it myself a decade ago - had a pair of wheels with DT Revolution spokes that were creaking a lot. Tied and soldered one of the crosses and that quieted them right down. It's one way to get a little more life out of a pair of older wheels.

Hey, PS - it doesn't work on radial lacing :-)

[bicimechanic]

I still do it for folks a few times a year. I enjoy doing it and I think it looks classic and cool. Does it do anything? Maybe. Maybe a little stiffer. Just make sure you make them tight, don't use a lot of solder and put a drop of oil on them now and then.

[zzy]

Without having seem much research/Jobst Brandt posting on the matter, seems like a bad tradeoff of stiffness for durability. The spokes need to flex, especially on the rear, so the crosses will grind a bit. Suspect you'd need a lot of tension too.

[Louis]

Flames of hell, erupt!

The only thing you didn't ask is whether T&S works better with tubular or clincher rims.

There have been countless threads, mostly very vociferous, in this forum. Search and ye shall find. And find. And find. And find.

I'm a newbie trying to figure out what the single best type of lube would be for my chain.

Any thoughts? (I ride in both wet and dry conditions.)

Thanks. ;)

[Cicli]

I'm a newbie trying to figure out what the single best type of lube would be for my chain.

Any thoughts? (I ride in both wet and dry conditions.)

Thanks. ;)

Solder it. :bike:

[11.4]

Tihsepa, good one.

Louis, shame on you.

OP, this is a topic beaten to death many times without ever showing a decisive win for either side. Search this forum.

[oldpotatoe]

Anyone still doing this? If so, are you noticing any improvement in wheel performance?

I do it. Why is up for discussion but why I do it.

Aluminum rims get deformed(bent), mostly from smacking something. Spokes become slack there and like a metal coat hanger, back-forth-back-forth-spokes break. T&S reduces the movement of the spoke at the flange, particularly on non drive side rear, reducing the possibility of broken spokes at that deformed place. So, I guess not breaking a spoke means better wheel performance but in terms of stiffness, acceleration, never noticed that.

T&S on big guy wheels, on more than a few disc brake wheels, also for big guys. Done more than a few track wheels so there isn't a spoke slapping around. Like tubulars, not magic or a black art.

[jzisk]

I did it for a few seasons-- we all did in the early 1970's, if we thought we were hotshots. I never noticed better performance , nor less problems. The weight penalty on a moving radius seemed foolish so I stopped. It's easy to do and difficult to undo.

[victoryfactory]

I'm a newbie trying to figure out what the single best type of lube would be for my chain.

Any thoughts? (I ride in both wet and dry conditions.)

Thanks. ;)

When you're out riding, stop at a gas station and fish an empty oil can out of the trash. There's always enough in there to do the job. 10/40 works best. 😉
(I've done that, actually)
VF

[bfd]

I do it. Why is up for discussion but why I do it.

Aluminum rims get deformed(bent), mostly from smacking something. Spokes become slack there and like a metal coat hanger, back-forth-back-forth-spokes break. T&S reduces the movement of the spoke at the flange, particularly on non drive side rear, reducing the possibility of broken spokes at that deformed place. So, I guess not breaking a spoke means better wheel performance but in terms of stiffness, acceleration, never noticed that.

T&S on big guy wheels, on more than a few disc brake wheels, also for big guys. Done more than a few track wheels so there isn't a spoke slapping around. Like tubulars, not magic or a black art.

Too bad Jobst is not around to disagree with you...from Sheldon Brown's Bicycle FAQ:

While writing The Bicycle Wheel, to conclusively determine what effect tying and soldering of spoke crossings in a wheel had, I asked Wheelsmith to lend me an untied pair of standard 36-spoke rear wheels, on Campagnolo low and high flange hubs. I had an inner body of a freewheel machined with flats so that a wheel could be clamped into the vise of a Bridgeport milling machine while the left end of its axle was held in the quill.

With the hub rigidly secured, with its axle vertical, dial gauges were mounted at four equally spaced locations on the machine bed to measure rim deflections as a 35lb weight was sequentially hung on the wheel at these positions. The deflections were recorded for each location and averaged for each wheel before and after tying and soldering spokes.

The wheels were also measured for torsional rigidity in the same fixture, by a wire anchored in the valve hole and wrapped around the rim so that a 35-lb force could be applied tangential to the rim. Dial gauges located at two places 90 degrees apart in the quadrant away from the applied load were used to measure relative rotation between the wheel and hub.

Upon repeating the measurements after tying and soldering the spokes, no perceptible change, other than random measurement noise of a few thousandths of an inch, was detected. The spokes were tied and soldered by Wheelsmith, which did this as a regular service. The data were collected by an engineer who did not know what I expected to find. I set up the experiment and delivered the wheels. (emphasis added).

Jobst Brandt

http://sheldonbrown.com/brandt/tied-soldered.html

[malcolm]

In reading OPs post I don't think he implies it created a stiffer wheel

[Joxster]

I T&S mine, it helps if I break a spoke and it stops hipsters putting postcards in my spokes

[oldpotatoe]

Too bad Jobst is not around to disagree with you...from Sheldon Brown's Bicycle FAQ:

While writing The Bicycle Wheel, to conclusively determine what effect tying and soldering of spoke crossings in a wheel had, I asked Wheelsmith to lend me an untied pair of standard 36-spoke rear wheels, on Campagnolo low and high flange hubs. I had an inner body of a freewheel machined with flats so that a wheel could be clamped into the vise of a Bridgeport milling machine while the left end of its axle was held in the quill.

With the hub rigidly secured, with its axle vertical, dial gauges were mounted at four equally spaced locations on the machine bed to measure rim deflections as a 35lb weight was sequentially hung on the wheel at these positions. The deflections were recorded for each location and averaged for each wheel before and after tying and soldering spokes.

The wheels were also measured for torsional rigidity in the same fixture, by a wire anchored in the valve hole and wrapped around the rim so that a 35-lb force could be applied tangential to the rim. Dial gauges located at two places 90 degrees apart in the quadrant away from the applied load were used to measure relative rotation between the wheel and hub.

Upon repeating the measurements after tying and soldering the spokes, no perceptible change, other than random measurement noise of a few thousandths of an inch, was detected. The spokes were tied and soldered by Wheelsmith, which did this as a regular service. The data were collected by an engineer who did not know what I expected to find. I set up the experiment and delivered the wheels. (emphasis added).

Jobst Brandt

http://sheldonbrown.com/brandt/tied-soldered.html

Hey, I've had Jobst personally berate me about T&S...Yup, I've read his book and yes, he was a master and yup, I don't agree with everything in his book.

AND the above, altho eloquent, is not the reason I T&S..it's all about spoke movement at the flange, mostly on the non-drive side rear..grab spokes where they cross and squeeze together..see how much spoke movement at the flange, then try with T&S wheel..see? Try it on yours..you don't have one? nancy.

[oldpotatoe]

In reading OPs post I don't think he implies it created a stiffer wheel

Reality,what a concept..

[malcolm]

Reality,what a concept..

Probably way overrated.

[JLP]

I tie and solder mostly as a nod to those who came before me. And it can't make a worse wheel, so there you go...

[11.4]

Like Tater, I've found that the proof is in the pudding. Pick up wheels and see if they are different after T&S. I find it helps mostly with lateral stability, and never expect it to affect rotational or longitudinal stability. And it helps if a spoke breaks, so for some uses it can be very helpful for non-rigidity reasons. Lots of people like to talk the theory, but race the wheels and if you race to strain the stability of the wheel, you'll likely see the difference.

[Tandem Rider]

The testing didn't show any improvement because the job wasn't finished...


Ya gotta crimp the nipples after a few rides and re-truing, otherwise it won't work...


Backing away from the mess I made with that stir....

:eek:

[oldpotatoe]

The testing didn't show any improvement because the job wasn't finished...


Ya gotta crimp the nipples after a few rides and re-truing, otherwise it won't work...


Backing away from the mess I made with that stir....

:eek:

Sapim, done for ya

[redir]

I've done it. Didn't notice any difference. Don't do it any more. Still have a couple TS wheelsets. I don't shave my legs either.

[Mark McM]

Hey, I've had Jobst personally berate me about T&S...Yup, I've read his book and yes, he was a master and yup, I don't agree with everything in his book.

AND the above, altho eloquent, is not the reason I T&S..it's all about spoke movement at the flange, mostly on the non-drive side rear..grab spokes where they cross and squeeze together..see how much spoke movement at the flange, then try with T&S wheel..see? Try it on yours..you don't have one? nancy.

How often do spokes experience side loads in use, as in your squeeze test? If they did, then maybe tying and soldering spokes might make a difference. But since they don't experience such loads, tying and soldering spokes makes no difference.

[Mark McM]

Tihsepa, good one.

Louis, shame on you.

OP, this is a topic beaten to death many times without ever showing a decisive win for either side. Search this forum.

That's kind of like saying that the existence of Bigfoot has been beaten to death many times without either side admitting defeat.

Except, in this case, we actually have tied and soldered wheels to examine and test. And despite the physical evidence, one side still refuses to admit defeat.

[Mark McM]

Hey, I've had Jobst personally berate me about T&S...Yup, I've read his book and yes, he was a master and yup, I don't agree with everything in his book.

We're still waiting for you to publish your book, to show us where Brandt went wrong.

[11.4]

That's kind of like saying that the existence of Bigfoot has been beaten to death many times without either side admitting defeat.

Except, in this case, we actually have tied and soldered wheels to examine and test. And despite the physical evidence, one side still refuses to admit defeat.

Huh? In your previous post you acknowledged to Tater that side loads could benefit from T&S. That was my point elsewhere in this thread. One encounters side loads all the time in track, sometimes in cross, and sometimes in road. It really depends on whether one rides aggressively or not. So for some people it won't matter; for others, it will matter more.

[11.4]

We're still waiting for you to publish your book, to show us where Brandt went wrong.

It's the movie. Currently in preproduction. Tater will be played by Liam Neeson, Jobst by Dennis Hopper, and Sheldon by Jack Nicholson.

[ptourkin]

My wheel builder likes to do it. I trust him. He takes good care of me and builds reliable wheels. I let him do what he wants. If someone can show me a negative effect that is more than marginal, I might reconsider.

[Mark McM]

Huh? In your previous post you acknowledged to Tater that side loads could benefit from T&S. That was my point elsewhere in this thread. One encounters side loads all the time in track, sometimes in cross, and sometimes in road. It really depends on whether one rides aggressively or not. So for some people it won't matter; for others, it will matter more.

Wheels encounter side loads, but spokes do not - when you side load the rim, the spokes only experience changes in axial loads, not lateral loads. The spoke squeeze test previously referenced places the spokes under direct lateral loading, and do not simulate loads experienced in a wheel under use.

Spokes behave much like the guy wires on this wind turbine tower:

http://www.kansaswindpower.net/Tilt.jpg

A high wind will generate a high side load on the wind turbine at the top of the tower. The result is that guy wires on the upwind side get tighter, and the guy wires on the downwind side get looser. But there are no side loads on the wires due to the side loading of the turbine at the top.

[Mark McM]

My wheel builder likes to do it. I trust him. He takes good care of me and builds reliable wheels. I let him do what he wants. If someone can show me a negative effect that is more than marginal, I might reconsider.

The negative effects are mostly unnecessary time and expense. Theoretically, the heat of soldering may partially anneal the spoke wire (which will result in a loss of some of the strength gain from cold working), but spokes don't typically break in the middle, so this slight loss of strength should not increase the chance of spoke breakages.

[11.4]

Wheels encounter side loads, but spokes do not - when you side load the rim, the spokes only experience changes in axial loads, not lateral loads. The spoke squeeze test previously referenced places the spokes under direct lateral loading, and do not simulate loads experienced in a wheel under use.

Spokes behave much like the guy wires on this wind turbine tower:

http://www.kansaswindpower.net/Tilt.jpg

A high wind will generate a high side load on the wind turbine at the top of the tower. The result is that guy wires on the upwind side get tighter, and the guy wires on the downwind side get looser. But there are no side loads on the wires due to the side loading of the turbine at the top.

Except the wheel doesn't act like a unitary attachment point at the apex (or at the contact patch). It is a much more dynamic interaction that also involves differential drive/non-drive-side tension on some wheels, rider weight on the system, shock load effects from hitting road irregularities, the rigidity (or lack thereof) of the rim itself (both vertical and lateral deflection), and other elements. This is why Jobst's test was far too simplistic and unrepresentative.

[oldpotatoe]

The negative effects are mostly unnecessary time and expense. Theoretically, the heat of soldering may partially anneal the spoke wire (which will result in a loss of some of the strength gain from cold working), but spokes don't typically break in the middle, so this slight loss of strength should not increase the chance of spoke breakages.

Hmmm..I often never charged and it was fun, and my time. 'Unnecessary', I guess according to some, and Jobst(RIP) but YMMV I guess...my time.

Only 33 posts, snow in northeast, we can do better!!

[Mark McM]

Except the wheel doesn't act like a unitary attachment point at the apex (or at the contact patch). It is a much more dynamic interaction that also involves differential drive/non-drive-side tension on some wheels, rider weight on the system, shock load effects from hitting road irregularities, the rigidity (or lack thereof) of the rim itself (both vertical and lateral deflection), and other elements. This is why Jobst's test was far too simplistic and unrepresentative.

And here I thought that the Bigfoot analogy was going to far, but maybe not. Before trying to come up with hypothesis to explain something, you first have to demonstrate that there is something to be explained (the Bigfoot believers have plenty of theories, but no real evidence). What evidence do you have of the existence of extra dynamic interactions?

A bicycle wheel is a very rigid and lightweight structure. It is therefore appropriate to model loads as quasistatic, since internal inertial affects are relatively minor. Henri Gavin, a professor of civil engineering, did a study on bicycle wheel spoke patterns (http://people.duke.edu/~hpgavin/papers/HPGavin-Wheel-Paper.pdf)to determine if spoke patterns affected fatigue loading (spokes fail in fatigue). In addition to finite element analyses, he also instrumented bicycle wheels with strain gauges to measures stresses/strains under actual riding conditions. He found that the measured loadings matched the finite element analysis quite well, indicating that the quasistatic loading model is valid.

[oldpotatoe]

And here I thought that the Bigfoot analogy was going to far, but maybe not. Before trying to come up with hypothesis to explain something, you first have to demonstrate that there is something to be explained (the Bigfoot believers have plenty of theories, but no real evidence). What evidence do you have of the existence of extra dynamic interactions?

A bicycle wheel is a very rigid and lightweight structure. It is therefore appropriate to model loads as quasistatic, since internal inertial affects are relatively minor. Henri Gavin, a professor of civil engineering, did a study on bicycle wheel spoke patterns (http://people.duke.edu/~hpgavin/papers/HPGavin-Wheel-Paper.pdf)to determine if spoke patterns affected fatigue loading (spokes fail in fatigue). In addition to finite element analyses, he also instrumented bicycle wheels with strain gauges to measures stresses/strains under actual riding conditions. He found that the measured loadings matched the finite element analysis quite well, indicating that the quasistatic loading model is valid.

I was about to say the same thing!;)