OT: Bigotry and Ignorance

[vav]

Yesterday my wife called me around 8ish AM to let me know the whole block is in lock down, nobody can get in or out of their houses. I had left at 6 AM and didn't see anything unusual...anyways this is what happened. Very hard to explain to my 7 year old...

http://wpri.com/2015/10/15/police-fire-crews-respond-to-incident-in-providence/

Some of the pics she took from our front porch:

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5653/22033953490_7e06f3c313_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/zz4LHQ)download_20151016_112731 (https://flic.kr/p/zz4LHQ) by VIAR VAPA (https://www.flickr.com/photos/63560619@N06/), on Flickr

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/752/22033954130_b0edb53659_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/zz4LUS)download_20151016_112314 (https://flic.kr/p/zz4LUS) by VIAR VAPA (https://www.flickr.com/photos/63560619@N06/), on Flickr

[brockd15]

What a shame. Hopefully that's all that ever comes of it.

Any word on if the rice in the bags was just rice?

[vav]

What a shame. Hopefully that's all that ever comes of it.

Any word on if the rice in the bags was just rice?

Yup. Last night past 9 pm I found a letter in my mailbox from the PPD that it was indeed just rice.

[Lewis Moon]

https://02varvara.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/fear-ignorance-hate.jpg

[vav]

;)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_qhYu5VOM6U4/TMc3FZtCQ8I/AAAAAAAAADI/VqxAYu7gKgI/s1600/anti-racism-brains-small-29795.jpg

[joosttx]

;)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_qhYu5VOM6U4/TMc3FZtCQ8I/AAAAAAAAADI/VqxAYu7gKgI/s1600/anti-racism-brains-small-29795.jpg

Only if that was true. I think this is the great lie about racism, is that racist people are dumb. I have met some very intelligent people who are stark raving racist.

[brockd15]

Only if that was true. I think this is the great lie about racism, is that racist people are dumb. I have met some very intelligent people who are stark raving racist.

I agree, it really isn't about intelligence.
Not that ignorance is really about intelligence either, but I think it's far, far overstated.

All that aside, what's really sad is that while we hate to see these things happen, I'm sure most of us aren't all that surprised. Unless you're in the neighborhood where it's up close and personal, and even then the shock is probably more due to it happening right there as opposed to it happening at all.

[mg2ride]

What was the lock down for?

Bags of rice with nasty grams in them?

Making a big deal over this kind of thing simply fuels the fire of these idiots.

[bikerboy337]

Wow Vav, saw that on the news all day yesterday here in PVD... so sorry your family was right there...

[brockd15]

What was the lock down for?

Bags of rice with nasty grams in them?

Making a big deal over this kind of think simply fuels the fire of these idiots.

I think the lockdown was while they made sure the rice was just rice and not some sort of toxic chemical.

[Lewis Moon]

I think the lockdown was while they made sure the rice was just rice and not some sort of toxic chemical.
Due diligence precautions.
I work in the environmental sector. One of our rules is to always ask the "how stupid would we look" question: "How stupid would we look if we just assumed it was rice...and it wasn't?"

...of course, looking stupid is the least of our worries in a situation like this.

[William]

Sorry you had to experience that vav, unfortunately there are a lot of very intolerant closed minded individuals in the world.






William

[redir]

That definitely sucks. On a happier note, that reminds me of my child hood as my grand parents lived right around the corner on Hope St.

[gasman]

Due diligence precautions.
I work in the environmental sector. One of our rules is to always ask the "how stupid would we look" question: "How stupid would we look if we just assumed it was rice...and it wasn't?"

...of course, looking stupid is the least of our worries in a situation like this.

I would much rather see this approach then to say- don't worry it's nothing.
Better safe than sorry.

Sorry to see something like this happen.

[OldCrank]

Nasty crap. And it seems to get way too much TV and web-share.

I was surprised to find out where the KKK originated- just 'next door' in CT. Had always assumed it was a deep-south thing. Hate travels too well IMO.

Hope they just keep someone warm by burning that nonsense.

[soulspinner]

Its everywhere.

[Mark McM]

I was surprised to find out where the KKK originated- just 'next door' in CT. Had always assumed it was a deep-south thing. Hate travels too well IMO..

Actually, most historians agree that the KKK was found in Pulaski, Tennessee in 1865. Not only do we know the actual date it was founded (December 24, 1865), but also the names of the 6 founders (J. Calvin Jones, Frank O. McCord, John B. Kennedy, John C. Lester, James R. Crowe, Richard R. Reed).

[AngryScientist]

What a totally unproductive use of time from assumably adult human beings. Hope they catch a few of them and throw them in jail.

[classtimesailer]

I would tell my 7 year old that those are halloween costumes.
In our neighborhood, they use little rocks to weight bags with messages. Is the rice thing a Charlie Manson thing? Over reaction on the part of Authority for sure.

[rugbysecondrow]

Dumb question, what was the crime? They are calling it a hate crime, but they didn't actually say what the crime was. A note, albeit a nasty note, but is that a crime?




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[Louis]

Over reaction on the part of Authority for sure.

Only in hindsight can you say this. If it had been dusted with anthrax and they didn't bother testing, people would be all over them for negligence.

[mg2ride]

Dumb question, what was the crime? They are calling it a hate crime, but they didn't actually say what the crime was. A note, albeit a nasty note, but is that a crime?




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Thank You

I was afraid to ask.

Hate is becoming a crime. It's more of a sickness than a crime.

[Louis]

I think the event described above was more like "hate speech."

This is what the FBI says about "hate crime."

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/civilrights/hate_crimes/overview

Hate Crime�Œverview

Investigating hate crime is the number one priority of our Civil Rights Program. Why? Not only because hate crime has a devastating impact on families and communities, but also because groups that preach hatred and intolerance plant the seeds of terrorism here in our country.

Defining a Hate Crime

A hate crime is a traditional offense like murder, arson, or vandalism with an added element of bias. For the purposes of collecting statistics, Congress has defined a hate crime as a �”�riminal offense against a person or property motivated in whole or in part by an offender�—� bias against a race, religion, disability, ethnic origin or sexual orientation. Hate itself is not a crime鷐nd the FBI is mindful of protecting freedom of speech and other civil liberties.

[Elefantino]

Racism is, unfortunately, part of the human condition.

It won't stop in any of our lifetimes. The best we can hope for is each of us trying to make our tiny parts of this world a better place.

[unterhausen]

the people that did it obviously wanted to create the appearance that they had spread toxic materials around, it's the same level of crime as a bomb threat. I think we can all agree that bomb threats are pretty serious, the local Walmart has been getting bomb threats and has to evacuate every time. Must cost them a lot of money each time.

[kramnnim]

Why rice? Wouldn't powdered sugar be more suspicious?

Maybe they thought ricin looks like rice.

[Louis]

I haven't read much about this incident, but who knows, it may be as simple as maybe the bags were previously used to transport rice and the haters didn't bother to clean them out 100%.

[Rouleur88]

Only if that was true. I think this is the great lie about racism, is that racist people are dumb. I have met some very intelligent people who are stark raving racist.

I agree. Years ago, late 70's, I was staying in Rio as a guest of the South African Ambassador to Brasil. His Son and I were newly acquainted friends and I was preparing to end my year long visit to Brasil and return to the United States. Apartheid was still in place in South Africa at the time. At a large dinner the night before I left, I asked the Ambassador how his Government could perpetuate this human rights atrocity on the native Blacks of South Africa.
Mind you all week I had a few opportunities to engage in casual conversation with the Ambassador and his Family. They were, in many aspects, wonderful people. However, that night at the party, I sat in disbelief as the Ambassador delivered a soliloquy about how Western people just did not understand how primitive native Africans were. That the various Tribes would practically cease to exist if not for the stern hand of the White Man. He said much more, some of it recorded in anger in my journal that night. But the point was, this Ambassador was a Harvard/Oxford Phd who was speaking from his heart about what he sincerely believed.
That conversation was a turning point in my awareness of racists. They are everywhere, not just in the South, not just transported by Pick Up trucks, and thirst quenched by cheap beer. They're not all stupid and we assume as much at our own peril.

[rugbysecondrow]

the people that did it obviously wanted to create the appearance that they had spread toxic materials around, it's the same level of crime as a bomb threat. I think we can all agree that bomb threats are pretty serious, the local Walmart has been getting bomb threats and has to evacuate every time. Must cost them a lot of money each time.


I think somebody notes above the most obvious answer, they wanted to weigh the note down so it didn't blow away. If somebody were wanting to make a false threat, rice seems to be the least likely candidate.




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[oldpotatoe]

I agree. Years ago, late 70's, I was staying in Rio as a guest of the South African Ambassador to Brasil. His Son and I were newly acquainted friends and I was preparing to end my year long visit to Brasil and return to the United States. Apartheid was still in place in South Africa at the time. At a large dinner the night before I left, I asked the Ambassador how his Government could perpetuate this human rights atrocity on the native Blacks of South Africa.
Mind you all week I had a few opportunities to engage in casual conversation with the Ambassador and his Family. They were, in many aspects, wonderful people. However, that night at the party, I sat in disbelief as the Ambassador delivered a soliloquy about how Western people just did not understand how primitive native Africans were. That the various Tribes would practically cease to exist if not for the stern hand of the White Man. He said much more, some of it recorded in anger in my journal that night. But the point was, this Ambassador was a Harvard/Oxford Phd who was speaking from his heart about what he sincerely believed.
That conversation was a turning point in my awareness of racists. They are everywhere, not just in the South, not just transported by Pick Up trucks, and thirst quenched by cheap beer. They're not all stupid and we assume as much at our own peril.

:rolleyes:pretty ballsy, IMHO.

[AJM100]

Over reaction on the part of Authority for sure.

Bingo - what he said. Every firetruck from all corners of the city of providence responded and you have the Pink Floyd gas mask brigade walking around literally flanked by police officers and other officials in plain uniform sans protection. I walked right by the scene unmolested (within 15 feet) and without anyone establishing a perimeter or otherwise showing concern about the presence of hazardous material. If the threat was so real Vav's wife would never have been allowed to so close to take photos.

Obviously my comment is directed to the perceived over reaction of the gas mask suit guys. As to the racist notes, the one good thing is that the perps do not appear to have "targeted" any families in particular. Seems a random act. Not sure this rises to the level of a hate crime or serious criminal "conduct" per se, but in this post-911 day and age I am sure the feds could spin the presence of the rice into a WMD/terrorist related threat if they wanted to do so. Which is more scary to me . . .:mad:

I am sad for the families who had to endure receipt of the notes and then the inconvenience of the official response.

[kevinvc]

. As to the racist notes, the one good thing is that the perps do not appear to have "targeted" any families in particular. Seems a random act. Not sure this rises to the level of a hate crime or serious criminal "conduct" per se, but in this post-911 day and age I am sure the feds could spin the presence of the rice into a WMD/terrorist related threat if they wanted to do so. Which is more scary to me . . .:mad:

I am sad for the families who had to endure receipt of the notes and then the inconvenience of the official response.

It is from a position of safety and privilege to be able to so easily blow this off. It was just a few months ago that a young man went and killed a number of people in their church solely because of their race. Several synagogues and black congregant churches have been vandalized or burnt over the last couple of years.

What seems like nothing more than a bigoted prank to some definitely creates a level of fear and intimidation in other populations. This is the very definition of terrorism and should clearly be treated as a criminal offense by law enforcement .

[rugbysecondrow]

It is from a position of safety and privilege to be able to so easily blow this off. It was just a few months ago that a young man went and killed a number of people in their church solely because of their race. Several synagogues and black congregant churches have been vandalized or burnt over the last couple of years.



What seems like nothing more than a bigoted prank to some definitely creates a level of fear and intimidation in other populations. This is the very definition of terrorism and should clearly be treated as a criminal offense by law enforcement .


The habit of using "privilege" as a trump card in an argument is weak tactic which has recently been popularized. It is frustrating because it is the perfect response to shout people down. Any response means their privilege affords them no perspective, or they succumb and agree.

The note reads like a white hate group calling out another black hate group.

If I am being honest, I say we invite the two groups to battle it out, sell tickets, and maybe there would be a few less of both in the world.

That said, I don't see a crime. I don't see a threat. I don't see terrorizing. Maybe I am obtuse from my privilege.


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[mg2ride]

...they wanted to weigh the note down so it didn't blow away...

Secondary. The primary reason for using rice (or even better yet small rocks) is so they can throw it at people.

[jzisk]

The disenfranchised, oppressed are not "using privilege as a trump card" as you say. Institutional racism and bigotry are the outcome of the powerful, privileged from a more subtle position within the institutions that make it more difficult for certain groups to succeed-- And the point is that those in power seldom recognize their attitudes, and never see the un-level playing field. That is the mark of privilege. I've taught at several high schools, two elite universities, and in clinical settings for over 35 years now, and I watch racist, bigotted actions couched in bland, unwitting rationalizations over and over again in every setting where people are hungry to keep their small bit of power.

This was a nasty action at an imaginably deadly level directed at a particular ethnic group-- regardless of how the perp' perceived the victim (you cannot blame a Black Panther for his or her murder just because he or she is a member of the Black Panthers.). It was a hate crime by the tightest definition, and savage bigotry by the loosest. And we need to be mindful of our "privilege" in our responses.

[ptourkin]

The habit of using "privilege" as a trump card in an argument is weak tactic which has recently been popularized. It is frustrating because it is the perfect response to shout people down. Any response means their privilege affords them no perspective, or they succumb and agree.

The note reads like a white hate group calling out another black hate group.

If I am being honest, I say we invite the two groups to battle it out, sell tickets, and maybe there would be a few less of both in the world.

That said, I don't see a crime. I don't see a threat. I don't see terrorizing. Maybe I am obtuse from my privilege.


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Yes, because one of these groups is largely imaginary, consisting of about nine marginal people, who although they say hateful things, haven't killed anyone, but nonetheless has been held up as boogeyman by blonde anchors on Fox and the other, with the assistance of government, did kill many, many people for many years. Great equivalence. No problems here. Keep moving...

[jzisk]

Right on, right on.

[rugbysecondrow]

The problem is that people overlay "privilege" on a certain segment of the population as a substitute for thought, purporting that as their perspective. Is that any worse than any other type of prejudgment based on race?

Here is the situation: agree with me and you have overcome your privilege, disagree and you are incapable of understanding the issue because of your privilege.

We all have perspectives, they will often differ, those perspectives forms our opinions.


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[malcolm]

The disenfranchised, oppressed are not "using privilege as a trump card" as you say. Institutional racism and bigotry are the outcome of the powerful, privileged from a more subtle position within the institutions that make it more difficult for certain groups to succeed-- And the point is that those in power seldom recognize their attitudes, and never see the un-level playing field. That is the mark of privilege. I've taught at several high schools, two elite universities, and in clinical settings for over 35 years now, and I watch racist, bigotted actions couched in bland, unwitting rationalizations over and over again in every setting where people are hungry to keep their small bit of power.

This was a nasty action at an imaginably deadly level directed at a particular ethnic group-- regardless of how the perp' perceived the victim (you cannot blame a Black Panther for his or her murder just because he or she is a member of the Black Panthers.). It was a hate crime by the tightest definition, and savage bigotry by the loosest. And we need to be mindful of our "privilege" in our responses.

I don't think I've ever seen this expressed better. For the masses this is where racism resides. Most people don't wish anyone any harm but they also don't want to give up any of their privilege so that makes it easy to overlook an uneven playing field and it's been that way so long and so ingrained it just seems like the way it is. From a position of comfort it's easy to villainize those struggling to secure their position in society.

White people of which I'm one have had a long time to skew the odds for success in our favor. Same with sexism it's so common most don't even see it deny it existence or daily occurrences.

In this example I think most are commenting on the response. I do think it was over done and seemingly in an ineffective manner, but it's easy to armchair quarterback. The folks managing such a scenario are in a no win situation. Too little and your screwed too much and you are second guessed. It does seem to me if you thought the threat was real you should have secured a perimeter to ensure public safety then brought in the hazmat guys. You also have to deal with the fact that everyone wants a piece of the action all the various groups train for this and when an event arises they all want to play no matter what may be in the public's best interest.

[AJM100]

It is from a position of safety and privilege to be able to so easily blow this off. .

Your take away from my post was that I blew this act off? That is a head scratcher. :crap:

If you didn't figure it out from my comment that I literally live a few blocks away from this incident not sure I understand how I experience this from a position of safety or privilege - it occurred in my immediate community. And for all you know I am Jewish and a target of the bigotry.

Did what occurred amount to a "hate" crime? That is a complex question based on the facts of the incident. In our society we punish conduct not speech however distasteful the latter may be. Did the act of throwing/leaving these notes amount to conduct, yes. But since no identifiable person was literally "hit" with the packaged note and no property damage resulted, it is hard to make a case for a prosecutable "hate" crime IMHO.

Is what occurred acceptable or should it be condoned = absolutely not, its reprehensible and will not be tolerated by this community.

[Ray]

The disenfranchised, oppressed are not "using privilege as a trump card" as you say. Institutional racism and bigotry are the outcome of the powerful, privileged from a more subtle position within the institutions that make it more difficult for certain groups to succeed-- And the point is that those in power seldom recognize their attitudes, and never see the un-level playing field. That is the mark of privilege. I've taught at several high schools, two elite universities, and in clinical settings for over 35 years now, and I watch racist, bigotted actions couched in bland, unwitting rationalizations over and over again in every setting where people are hungry to keep their small bit of power.

This was a nasty action at an imaginably deadly level directed at a particular ethnic group-- regardless of how the perp' perceived the victim (you cannot blame a Black Panther for his or her murder just because he or she is a member of the Black Panthers.). It was a hate crime by the tightest definition, and savage bigotry by the loosest. And we need to be mindful of our "privilege" in our responses.
Brilliantly said. I highly recommend the book "Between the World and Me" by Ta-Nehisi Coates, a brilliant black man who's overcome a tough background to attain a serious level of privilege himself, but who continues to fear for the life of his teenage son based on the institutional racism that still exists and that so many of us are blind to. Because to fully acknowledge it would require action that would threaten the very privilege so many of us take for granted. Some will accuse me of "white guilt" for agreeing with his basic conclusions in that book. And I fully cop to that - more of us should feel it IMHO.

-Ray

[mg2ride]

.....they also don't want to give up any of their privilege......

This isn't racism, it's reality.

I will openly state that I'm not interested in giving up any of my "privileges" to anyone. Regardless of race, religion, nationality, age or sex.

As well, I have no interested in taking anyone else's privileges away simply to even the playing field.

[malcolm]

This isn't racism, it's reality.

I will openly state that I'm not interested in giving up any of my "privileges" to anyone. Regardless of race, religion, nationality, age or sex.

As well, I have no interested in taking anyone else's privileges away simply to even the playing field.

Maybe maybe not. I'll give a corollary story. I was at a meeting of spouses of a society my wife belongs to. Most of the spouses were women not that that matters but all come from a life of privilege myself included. They were discussing health care with righteous indignation over the fact that everyone in the US couldn't have top tier health care. After listening carefully I said well everyone in the US can have top quality health care but how many of you are willing to give up say 10% of your income to fund it. Well no one.

It may not be direct racism but it perpetuates it's existence. It doesn't make you a bad person. It's just we all go along with the way things are especially when it benefits us. It's the rare individual that is willing to give up their own comfort to elevate a fellow human being.

[mg2ride]

.....how many of you are willing to give up say 10% of your income to fund it. Well no one...

Did you ever consider that people don't answer this kind of question because their answer is just as meaningless and the question is. They don't answer because they know you can't deliver. It is no different than me asking you if you would give up the life of your children if it meant utopia for the rest of us? Would you?

It should also be noted that you can make up for my unwillingness to give up 10% of my income by simply giving up 20% of yours. Assuming you were only talking to 4 or 5 other people you could easily have covered for them all, if you are willing?


...It's the rare individual that is willing to give up their own comfort to elevate a fellow human being...

As stated, that is complete and utter B.S and reeks of elitism. Every one of us(damn near anyway) sacrifices our own comforts to elevate other people. Namely our children, spouses, siblings and those close to us. We just all have different limits and abilities when it comes to sacrificing for the rest of the world. Most times it is not because we won't it is because we know we can't.

My point is really just that individually, or even collectively, we can not solve the ills of the worlds through sacrifice. Many religions have tried and failed.

[OtayBW]

My point is really just that individually, or even collectively, we can not solve the ills of the worlds through sacrifice. Many religions have tried and failed.Interestingly, this is one of the core distinctions between the 'Northern' (Mahayana) and the 'Southern' (Theravadan) schools of Buddhism where the latter holds this sacrifice as a goal, and the former tends not to. I'll leave it at that....

[mg2ride]

...I'll leave it at that....

Good advise even if it was not meant to be. I think I will follow your lead on this one.:beer:

[Jake January]

Racism is, unfortunately, part of the human condition.

It won't stop in any of our lifetimes. The best we can hope for is each of us trying to make our tiny parts of this world a better place.

Yes but racism is not human nature, it is a learned condition me thinks.

And I agree racists aren't stupid by a long shot.
Just study people like Harry J. Anslinger and William Randolph Hearst. Likely we will never undo the damage they helped do to the world.
At least we can do our little parts to help propagate some truth regarding the very deeply entrenched racist policies of US Federal government and their "long-arm" the United Nations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_J._Anslinger

[rugbysecondrow]

Your take away from my post was that I blew this act off? That is a head scratcher. :crap:



If you didn't figure it out from my comment that I literally live a few blocks away from this incident not sure I understand how I experience this from a position of safety or privilege - it occurred in my immediate community. And for all you know I am Jewish and a target of the bigotry.



Did what occurred amount to a "hate" crime? That is a complex question based on the facts of the incident. In our society we punish conduct not speech however distasteful the latter may be. Did the act of throwing/leaving these notes amount to conduct, yes. But since no identifiable person was literally "hit" with the packaged note and no property damage resulted, it is hard to make a case for a prosecutable "hate" crime IMHO.



Is what occurred acceptable or should it be condoned = absolutely not, its reprehensible and will not be tolerated by this community.


I 100% agree with your take. I don't agree or support the behavior, but acts, even despicable ones like this, might not be crimes.


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[Ray]

I 100% agree with your take. I don't agree or support the behavior, but acts, even despicable ones like this, might not be crimes.

I think the analogy to a bomb threat is a good one. When speech goes beyond mere free speech into threatening action. Distributing hate speech in an area intended to terrorize or create the impression of impending/future violence I think probably rises to the level of a hate crime. Whether that's what happened here I don't know, but if that's the set of circumstances, it's more than just free speech.

-Ray

[rugbysecondrow]

Maybe, but there wasn't a threat in the note, at least I didn't read one.






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[Louis]

Maybe, but there wasn't a threat in the note, at least I didn't read one.

Are we reading the same note?

"Now ride to the sound of the guns and let's get this settled once and for all."

That doesn't sound like an invitation to go out to tea. At least not to me.

[rugbysecondrow]

What you posted isn't a threat.


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[Louis]

What you posted isn't a threat.

I can see how you might think that, but the folks on the receiving end (and the courts) would disagree.

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/civilrights/hate_crimes/images/klan3.jpg

[malcolm]

Did you ever consider that people don't answer this kind of question because their answer is just as meaningless and the question is. They don't answer because they know you can't deliver. It is no different than me asking you if you would give up the life of your children if it meant utopia for the rest of us? Would you?

It should also be noted that you can make up for my unwillingness to give up 10% of my income by simply giving up 20% of yours. Assuming you were only talking to 4 or 5 other people you could easily have covered for them all, if you are willing?




As stated, that is complete and utter B.S and reeks of elitism. Every one of us(damn near anyway) sacrifices our own comforts to elevate other people. Namely our children, spouses, siblings and those close to us. We just all have different limits and abilities when it comes to sacrificing for the rest of the world. Most times it is not because we won't it is because we know we can't.

My point is really just that individually, or even collectively, we can not solve the ills of the worlds through sacrifice. Many religions have tried and failed.


I tend to agree with you, but either I didn't make my point or you missed it. I was not intending to suggest we or any group write a check or pull money from their savings. Change only comes when the law or rules written and unwritten are changed. When goods and/or services are considered well they cost money and will usually need to be paid for by the government. The government has no resources it didn't first obtain from tax payers. The folks of privilege usually bear the tax burden, unless you have enough privilege then you can get around it. That is the arbitrary 10% I mentioned and I promise you if any good or service is increased be it health care or what have you it has to be paid for. Leaving out effectiveness and efficiency of the government.

My example was meant to demonstrate apparently poorly, that even well intended good people tend to support the status quo especially when it benefits them. We'll talk about leveling the playing field and making all things equal for all people but do little to actually effect change and often times knowingly or unknowingly work against it. I personally do everything I can to pay lower taxes because I think they government is ineffective and inefficient or at least that's what I've convinced myself of. Change in areas of privilege is almost always initiated by those that don't have it.

[Ray]

I personally do everything I can to pay lower taxes because I think they government is ineffective and inefficient or at least that's what I've convinced myself of. Change in areas of privilege is almost always initiated by those that don't have it.
Kind of a funny thing - I personally do the same thing under whatever set of rules we have in place, probably because I feel it's almost my obligation to do so, like I'd be a sucker if someone else paid less under the same set of rules.

BUT...

I regularly vote for people and actions that I know will result in my taxes increasing if they're going up for things I think are worthwhile - such as paying for healthcare for those less well off than I, for better public education, etc, etc, etc. And I vote against people who will cut my taxes for no good reason except to get my vote or raise them to fight wars I oppose (which is not ALL wars, but most of 'em recently). But I still pay 'em at the minimum level I can based on whatever set of rules we've agreed to, even if I don't agree...

-Ray

[malcolm]

Kind of a funny thing - I personally do the same thing under whatever set of rules we have in place, probably because I feel it's almost my obligation to do so, like I'd be a sucker if someone else paid less under the same set of rules.

BUT...

I regularly vote for people and actions that I know will result in my taxes increasing if they're going up for things I think are worthwhile - such as paying for healthcare for those less well off than I, for better public education, etc, etc, etc. And I vote against people who will cut my taxes for no good reason except to get my vote or raise them to fight wars I oppose (which is not ALL wars, but most of 'em recently). But I still pay 'em at the minimum level I can based on whatever set of rules we've agreed to, even if I don't agree...

-Ray

I do the exact same thing. I was trying to explain to my daughter how I could like Bernie Sanders even though he would probably cost me money if he was elected. Not sure how good a job I did but I think she got it at the end.

[Rouleur88]

:rolleyes:pretty ballsy, IMHO.

I understand your sarcastic response. Diplomacy wasn't my strong point during my youth.