anyone shift careers?

[jimcav]

I plan on leaving the military next year. other than summer work as a kid it is the only employer I've had. I don't really want to do similar work, but am not sure what to do. I have a friend who was unsatisfied as a lawyer and spent several thousand on a company that said they would help him figure out what he was best suited for and place him--they just took his money. I don't think I have a hobby that could turn into a business. I missed the boat on marijuana. Just curious if anyone went through this and had a resource that actually helped/worked for them. We want to keep the kids in their current school system, which means I must keep working so my fallback is to do the same type of work as a federal employee, but I'd really rather discover something else, just not sure how to go about discovering what it could be

[brockd15]

I think it will depend a lot on what you do now and how that experience could translate to other fields.

Another big factor would be how much income you need. The lower that number goes the more options you have, since for most things outside your current profession, you'd be starting on the bottom rung, essentially entry-level.

[rnhood]

I think you have to make up your own mind on this. Consider your your education, that should help point you in a direction. If you have many years in the military then something in a shipyard might be a good option. If you have a marketable college degree (e.g., engineering) however, then your options are far greater. I don't think you need a placement agency trying to tell you what to pursue. You need to make up your own mind on this, then employ an agency if needed to help place you in the specific line of work.

[SPOKE]

One thing I can tell you is "double dipping" has paid off for my Father & brother. Both retired after 20+ years in the military then shifted over to a civil service career. Pension & healthcare benefits are great for them.

[jimcav]

One thing I can tell you is "double dipping" has paid off for my Father & brother. Both retired after 20+ years in the military then shifted over to a civil service career. Pension & healthcare benefits are great for them.

I just don't look fwd to the work, but I don't feel passionate about something else. the cost of living here is stupid too, but my wife wants to stay.

[eddief]

Yes, they charge for their services, but good ones have tools that will facilitate the process of YOU deciding what YOU want to do next in YOUR career.

[SPOKE]

I just don't look fwd to the work, but I don't feel passionate about something else. the cost of living here is stupid too, but my wife wants to stay.

I get every bit of this Jim. Just make a complete assessment of your skill set and understand where these skills fit into the marketplace. Get a resume put together and start shopping now before you make the choice to leave the military. Just don't underestimate your military training as it relates to the private sector employers.

[Avincent52]

I'm sorry if I'm coming in late here and others know all this about you, but I'd need more info to give you any kind of meaningful advice.

What did you do in the military?
Do you have a college degree or other credentials?
Where do you live?
Approximately how old are you?
Do you have enough savings or access to capital to allow you to start your own business or invest?

In any case, good luck.
I'm in a kind of similar situation (see the If Money Only Mattered thread) but without any kind of a pension etc.

[vqdriver]

i think a good first step is to decide if you want to do something that you enjoy or something that you're good at. for some folks that's the same thing, but i consider them the lucky ones. there's nothing wrong with pursuing a good income or having your career and passions lie in different realms. in fact, it can be argued that a good income would actually enhance your personal interests by relieving a lot of stress or pressure. be honest with yourself.

you could start by talking to your wife or parents/siblings. they know you best with regards to talent and temperament and may say something along the lines of "you know, i always imagined you doing ...... "

[OtayBW]

...the cost of living here is stupid too, but my wife wants to stay.A ha! The plot thickens! Why not try googling 'transferrable skills' for a start?...

[oldpotatoe]

I plan on leaving the military next year. other than summer work as a kid it is the only employer I've had. I don't really want to do similar work, but am not sure what to do. I have a friend who was unsatisfied as a lawyer and spent several thousand on a company that said they would help him figure out what he was best suited for and place him--they just took his money. I don't think I have a hobby that could turn into a business. I missed the boat on marijuana. Just curious if anyone went through this and had a resource that actually helped/worked for them. We want to keep the kids in their current school system, which means I must keep working so my fallback is to do the same type of work as a federal employee, but I'd really rather discover something else, just not sure how to go about discovering what it could be

Are you getting out or retiring?

[jzisk]

I've been in three distinct careers-- Psychology, Chemistry and Teaching. Each change was difficult to plan and initiate, with enough drama that I spent lots of time talking it over with friends and family, and in one cases sought professional counseling. Money and time were the big issues, but looking for deeper job satisfaction was the compelling need...

[SoCalSteve]

I believe there are places you can go where you can get tested on your interests, your personality, your skill sets, etc.

They then put this all together and figure out what job sectors or careers you would be suited for and what would satisfy you with your personality type. Career counseling, but with lots of testing.

I know UCLA Extension offered this many years back. You may want to check colleges or the private sector for this. Seems to be a great way to figure it out!

Good luck!

[carpediemracing]

I went from bike shop to IT to (placeholder) regular small biz retail employee to, just recently, car sales. I wanted to try car sales for about 15 years, I needed a job, and that's why I went with that.

Think about your passions. You post here so you must like bikes at some level. Any bike companies nearby? Do you have experience managing/organizing a large number of people? THink of what you did and how that can translate into non-military positions.

Fine, if you were a sniper then there probably isn't a ton of regular jobs out there, but even then you could teach technique etc.

I'm wondering if I made a good move but the beauty of it is that the Missus supports this experiment of mine. We've given myself a year or two to see how it works out. In the meantime I'm missing being involved with bike stuff and I'm missing making IT money.

[Ralph]

Unless you are retiring.....the grass may not be greener on other side. Anything you can do in civil service? Where you would get special consideration for your military experience?

[eddief]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Color_is_Your_Parachute%3F

With 10 million copies sold in more than twenty languages, What Color Is Your Parachute?, written by career guru Richard N. Bolles, is the world's most popular job-hunting guide. This perennial New York Times and BusinessWeek bestseller helps job-searchers find meaningful work in any economy. However, the book is not only about finding a job in hard times; it's also about finding your passion.

What Color Is Your Parachute? will help you identify the skills you most enjoy using as well as the field in which you will most enjoy using them. The book will also help you find jobs without depending on agencies, ads, and online postings.

Updated each year to cater to the specific requirements of today's job market, What Color Is Your Parachute? has all the answers you're looking for and more. It's the guide that millions of job-hunters have turned to for more than three decades.

[Seramount]

hmmm, I don't even know what a 'career' is...

here's a list of jobs, in order, that I've had since graduating from college:

Environmental Technician (major natural gas transmission company) - collected field data and assisted preparation of Env Impact Statements

Tour Manager - led guided camping trips for Europeans in the western US national parks system

Bartender

Laboratory Manager - state university agricultural research station

Self-employed - real estate (house-flipper)

Environmental consulting firm - multiple positions (HazWaste, Toxicology, Geotechnical, Air Monitoring)

Self-employed - fungal contamination investigator during the Great Mold Scare

Compliance Officer, state env regulatory agency


bottom line is that you can re-invent yourself multiple times if you have to...

[bigbill]

I retired from the Navy in 2012 as a Lieutenant Commander with 27 years. 15 of those years were as an enlisted submarine electrician. I ran nuclear reactors on submarines and carriers. I used a headhunter (Lucas Group) which cost me nothing. They set me up with companies looking for operation managers, maintenance managers, engineers, and technical service. I now make diapers for a huge worldwide company and will soon move from Process Engineer to Operations Manager.

I was surprised in what companies were looking for in military officers/NCO's. My background was nuclear engineering, Lucas had me interview with roofing material companies, Ventura Foods (Smart Balance), Honeywell, James Hardy (Hardy Plank), Trinity Industries (barges, wind towers), etc. These companies were looking for people ready made to manage.

[rounder]

I did. Not a military career.

I started off working with a job at the local office of the Federal Reserve Bank. Then got a job at the local commercial bank. I loved it there until the company had hard times and was taken over.

I was out of a job. Filed for unemployment. Applied for jobs daily. Worked on temp jobs for two years (not fun). Fell into a job with a large accounting firm. Travelled endlessly.

Ended up with a D.C. area accounting job with a small firm. Been there for 20 years love it there. Lesson learned...be flexible.

[Wakatel_Luum]

I quit working for a big shipping company in their finance team and became a masseur...less money but better quality of life style...less stress and healthier...

[carpediemracing]

Would you consider a career in law enforcement?

You a people person? or better at focusing on individual tasks?

Random thoughts/qustions.

[wallymann]

I plan on leaving the military next year. other than summer work as a kid it is the only employer I've had. I don't really want to do similar work, but am not sure what to do. I have a friend who was unsatisfied as a lawyer and spent several thousand on a company that said they would help him figure out what he was best suited for and place him--they just took his money. I don't think I have a hobby that could turn into a business. I missed the boat on marijuana. Just curious if anyone went through this and had a resource that actually helped/worked for them. We want to keep the kids in their current school system, which means I must keep working so my fallback is to do the same type of work as a federal employee, but I'd really rather discover something else, just not sure how to go about discovering what it could be

what do you do in the military? which branch? officer or enlisted? trigger puller? loggie? comms? maintainer? security? R&D? hard to say what your options might be w/o knowing at least a little about your experience.

leadership and clear thinking in particular are very valuable in the private sector.

[Schmed]

I think we all have to find that intersection where SKILLS meet INTERESTS and figure your career around that.

That way, your skills provide the value and your interests keep you motivated.

For me, I really enjoy figuring things out and troubleshooting and my skills are math and chemistry. Engineering has been a great career for me, and I still enjoy what I do many years later. And it pays for Ti bikes and such.

[A1CKot]

Lots of helpful information here http://www.militaryonesource.mil/deployment-and-transition/separating-from-the-military
I'm in a similar situation. I just extended 10 months to PCS back state side to make the transition easier. Main difference is I like my job and I'm single. Your marketable skill outside of your career field is management. Everyone in the military has management skills and this is what may get you hired over someone with a higher education level. When looking for a pay equivalent add up all your benefits you receive in the military to find an equivalent paying job. As an E-5 my equivalent pay would be closer to $70k a year even though my base pay is only $31k. Insurance, housing and food make up a large amount of the unrealized income. Considered Guard or Reserves as a fall back to give you some of the benefits while you figure out what you path you want to take.

Its also an election year so things for the military could be very different in a years time.

I'm not trying to talk you into staying or leaving the military but these are things that I have thought about in my own decision to stay or go. Good luck!

[oldpotatoe]

Lots of helpful information here http://www.militaryonesource.mil/deployment-and-transition/separating-from-the-military
I'm in a similar situation. I just extended 10 months to PCS back state side to make the transition easier. Main difference is I like my job and I'm single. Your marketable skill outside of your career field is management. Everyone in the military has management skills and this is what may get you hired over someone with a higher education level. When looking for a pay equivalent add up all your benefits you receive in the military to find an equivalent paying job. As an E-5 my equivalent pay would be closer to $70k a year even though my base pay is only $31k. Insurance, housing and food make up a large amount of the unrealized income. Considered Guard or Reserves as a fall back to give you some of the benefits while you figure out what you path you want to take.

Its also an election year so things for the military could be very different in a years time.

I'm not trying to talk you into staying or leaving the military but these are things that I have thought about in my own decision to stay or go. Good luck!

If he is retiring(don't know), no reserves or guard jobs possible unless he wants to quit(before retiring) and join..not smart. He can retire but not get retirement pay till age 62.

If he is retiring, pensions make for lots of flexibility. If just getting out, well, I'd say stay in till retirement. Not many places you can retire with 20 years with the pay and benefits.

[A1CKot]

If he is retiring(don't know), no reserves or guard jobs possible unless he wants to quit(before retiring) and join..not smart. He can retire but not get retirement pay till age 62.

If he is retiring, pensions make for lots of flexibility. If just getting out, well, I'd say stay in till retirement. Not many places you can retire with 20 years with the pay and benefits.

True. Wouldn't make sense to go guard/reserve if he is retiring. The 20 year thing sure sounds nice but in has become increasingly difficult to make it that far. I'm in aircraft maintenance and nearly everyday I go to work I hear or have a conversation about getting out. The doing more with less plan the Air Force has adapted seems to be back firing and driving people away. That and the force shaping and constant threat of government shut down year after year really calls into question how secure a active duty military career is... That said, I have no regrets about joining but my happiness and health will drive my decision when my contract comes up int 2017.

[oldpotatoe]

True. Wouldn't make sense to go guard/reserve if he is retiring. The 20 year thing sure sounds nice but in has become increasingly difficult to make it that far. I'm in aircraft maintenance and nearly everyday I go to work I hear or have a conversation about getting out. The doing more with less plan the Air Force has adapted seems to be back firing and driving people away. That and the force shaping and constant threat of government shut down year after year really calls into question how secure a active duty military career is... That said, I have no regrets about joining but my happiness and health will drive my decision when my contract comes up int 2017.

Military is going to be funded regardless. Shutdowns are temporary political stunts and don't effect active duty pay or benefits.

YUP, each gotta make their own decision about the military. I had an exchange tour with the USAF flying F-4s in MacDill, and it is very different that the 'vibe' in the USN, when it came to the maintainers. MUCH smaller force, a squadron of 12 jets had 250 troops, and a lot of those weren't wrench turners..maybe 125 or so actual maintainers so..easy to rise in the organization..and get that E-6, to be able to retire. BUT I still saw a lot of E-5s, on their second enlistment(8 years)..see the next 12 as a huge step..and get out. Lots of great knowledge going out the door. But even with bonus', schools, lots still didn't like the 'haze gray and underway', part..I did tho, flying off a boat. Join the Navy and see the world, I really did.

Good luck in your decision..you're single, get out and join the senior service(That'd be the USN).

[Mikej]

Military is going to be funded regardless. Shutdowns are temporary political stunts and don't effect active duty pay or benefits.

YUP, each gotta make their own decision about the military. I had an exchange tour with the USAF flying F-4s in MacDill, and it is very different that the 'vibe' in the USN, when it came to the maintainers. MUCH smaller force, a squadron of 12 jets had 250 troops, and a lot of those weren't wrench turners..maybe 125 or so actual maintainers so..easy to rise in the organization..and get that E-6, to be able to retire. BUT I still saw a lot of E-5s, on their second enlistment(8 years)..see the next 12 as a huge step..and get out. Lots of great knowledge going out the door. But even with bonus', schools, lots still didn't like the 'haze gray and underway', part..I did tho, flying off a boat. Join the Navy and see the world, I really did.

Good luck in your decision..you're single, get out and join the senior service(That'd be the USN).
They are proposing no more "20 year retirements" instead after 12-14 years you get a crappy 401k- thanks Obama!

[wallymann]

...The doing more with less plan the Air Force has adapted seems to be back firing and driving people away...

the cynical part of me thinks that IS PART OF THE PLAN -- how the hell else are we going to pay for the taxpayer-dollar-burning, lockheed-profit-generating, joke-of-a-program JSFs?!

[unterhausen]

well, buying super-expensive airframes is going to mean smaller maintenance corps. So you're probably right. In today's world of asymmetric warfare, it doesn't really take a lot of airplanes to do the job. And I'm not sure I see that turning around any time soon.

When I was in and the Republicans played their budget games, it was always pretty stressful. Of course, in our case it meant that we had less money to play with for a while, and then when the inevitable happened, we would have to work harder to spend it. But it mostly was just ridiculous showboating. That was before the endless continuing resolutions that we have now, and they have had to deal with their budgets being cut in a significant way. I don't know how the upper management deal with that, it's no doubt a big distraction.

[wallymann]

...so you're probably right. In today's world of asymmetric warfare, it doesn't really take a lot of airplanes to do the job...

thats the problem with JSF...it doesnt do it's job! but lockheed sure did do a great sales-job!

but i digress...lots of great ideas and thoughts for the OP to plan for his next phase...i'd be curious about what his military experience included, to give more relevant ideas for things to consider. i work for a tech company and was in our DoD practice for ~8 years in the enterprise logistics/supply-chain space...and there is always a place for smart, motivated, and experienced ex-military folks to do things that are more interesting than just crossing the street and trading your CAC-card for a contractor-badge.

[jds108]

Jim,

Just a little note when I thought about doing something similar. My work has all been in IT and I wanted to do something completely different.

I spent quite a bit of time looking at franchises - which is to say to open a semi-fast food restaurant. Since I've never done anything like that, going in via a franchise ostensibly gives you the support to make it a success. I didn't follow-through as I found it difficult to determine just how much of my time it would take to make it a success, as well as the big unknown with respect to how much profit such a business would generate.

I ended up cashing in all of my 401k and similar to buy properties and become a landlord. I'm still working my regular job, but I'll be able to "retire" early and just be a landlord. It takes a big investment to generate decent returns, so this route isn't particularly easy in my opinion.

Don't know if any of this helps - just sharing my own personal experience.

[jimcav]

Are you getting out or retiring?

I didn't plan to go at my 1st opportunity, but my wife is sick of moving, and the next move would put my son in high school when I face this same decision

[jimcav]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Color_is_Your_Parachute%3F

What Color Is Your Parachute? will help you identify the skills you most enjoy using as well as the field in which you will most enjoy using them. The book will also help you find jobs without depending on agencies, ads, and online postings.

Updated each year to cater to the specific requirements of today's job market, What Color Is Your Parachute? has all the answers you're looking for and more. It's the guide that millions of job-hunters have turned to for more than three decades.

I will give that a try and see what it points me to--doesn't cost much1

[jimcav]

I retired from the Navy in 2012 as a Lieutenant Commander with 27 years. 15 of those years were as an enlisted submarine electrician. I ran nuclear reactors on submarines and carriers. I used a headhunter (Lucas Group) which cost me nothing. They set me up with companies looking for operation managers, maintenance managers, engineers, and technical service. I now make diapers for a huge worldwide company and will soon move from Process Engineer to Operations Manager.

I was surprised in what companies were looking for in military officers/NCO's. My background was nuclear engineering, Lucas had me interview with roofing material companies, Ventura Foods (Smart Balance), Honeywell, James Hardy (Hardy Plank), Trinity Industries (barges, wind towers), etc. These companies were looking for people ready made to manage.

I am using a headhunter very specific to the same work, which is what is stressing me--I don't enjoy it. I will look into a more general approach like you describe with Lucas. I still have to do the TAPS class or whatever they call it now so maybe will get leads there too

[unterhausen]

thats the problem with JSF...it doesnt do it's job! but lockheed sure did do a great sales-job!
I hate to sound like one of the old F4 curmudgeons I used to work with, but they can still make F16's or F18's if forced. I worked on F16's, but I always thought the F18 was pretty much all we needed as far as fighters go. I suppose this kind of thinking is why I didn't exactly rocket to the top.

As far as the OP goes, I have worked with a lot of retired NCOs and Officers. It's not as easy to get a GS job as it used to be, but I think they are still hiring. If you don't have any obvious skills to market, this is one of the things to consider. It's been 20 years now since I got out, so I am not as attuned to what is going on in that job market as I used to be. All I can say is stay away from the people that see you as a way to make their living, there are jobs out there for you. There seems to be a number of bottom feeders out there that prey on the military, stay away from people that use hard sell tactics to get you to pay them to sell their "product."

[jimcav]

Jim,

Just a little note when I thought about doing something similar. My work has all been in IT and I wanted to do something completely different.

I ended up cashing in all of my 401k and similar to buy properties and become a landlord. I'm still working my regular job, but I'll be able to "retire" early and just be a landlord. It takes a big investment to generate decent returns, so this route isn't particularly easy in my opinion.

Don't know if any of this helps - just sharing my own personal experience.
I once worked with a JAG who was on his way to doing that--he owned multi-unit building in a terrible part of town--but I think he had the personality and legal know how to work those tenant issues. I am near San Diego so no way I can invest in income generating property here, and not sure I could do long-distance landlording. We still have a house back in Maryland and it is good investment in the long run but there is ZERO net income from it now.

I do love home improvement stuff, and IF I could get my wife to agree to go back to the Midwest where I am from, that would be a different price point and I could flip houses with high school buddies who I am still extremely close with. But Marriage is all about compromise, so I imagine I will stay here and do work I dislike :)

[Avincent52]

Jim
I think you need to answer two questions.

A) Tell me about a time that you were really happy/satisfied/fulfilled on the job.

B) Tell me about a time where you were really successful on the job.

Then break those stories down and think about what skills/experience you called upon in each of those situations.

Armed with that information, it will be much easier to find a civilian career path that's going to make you happy.

If they point you toward author/freelance journalist, I'd reconsider and perhaps move toward something marketable like reality show host or killer for hire. Ask me how I know.

[jimcav]

Great to hear the experiences and I have some resources I didn't know about before.

I am easily able to continue similar work outside the military, I just really don't want to. It causes the same feeling in my gut where you've been dating a person and you know it isn't right, and while there isn't anything specifically horrible, you just know you need something else.

Anyway, I think with my love of home improvement projects and prior woodworking hobby I could flip houses and enjoy that. I am doing my annual trip with my old High School cross country team and one is a contractor, so will talk to him--maybe I can take my pension, fly to the midwest for a few weeks at a time to do a house, and then come home.

A lot to think about and 9 months to figure it out

[jimcav]

Well, IMHO you are funnier than many things I've read in the new Yorker, if that means anything to you!
A) Never, literally. I used the navy to go to college (which obligated me 7 years), then added more education on their dime. By the time I could first get out, it seemed foolish to not just go until I could retire, but the whole time it has been unfulfilling personally. Seemed the "right" call when my 18 yr old EGO felt what was the point of straight As etc if i was going to the only state school I could afford, but it has whittled away at me--I only "regress" to being the person I was when I am back with high school friends, and that is tempered by a feeling I can't really start over. Might not be true, I need to figure that out.
B) I have always been successful, but that is because I am in an inherently inefficient organization. Lots of "average" folks, very high turnover of the active duty (rotate every 2-3 years max), and stuck with GS workers who do the absolute minimum or screech to a halt when something outside the 7 things they do every day comes to their desk... I have gotten good at pushing things along and using lean six approaches etc to remove the "no value added" crap, and in the end I read FAST so I can always look up the actual regulation, law etc and quote it to move things along

I guess I should say I have enjoyed some of the people I work with, especially some of the more elite forces types, but that was more "water cooler" or lunchtime PT time with them, not the actual "work"

Jim
I think you need to answer two questions.

A) Tell me about a time that you were really happy/satisfied/fulfilled on the job.

B) Tell me about a time where you were really successful on the job.

Then break those stories down and think about what skills/experience you called upon in each of those situations.

Armed with that information, it will be much easier to find a civilian career path that's going to make you happy.

If they point you toward author/freelance journalist, I'd reconsider and perhaps move toward something marketable like reality show host or killer for hire. Ask me how I know.

[Avincent52]

Jim
So why don't you start out working as a contractor?
Take a job working on someone's bathroom or kitchen evenings/weekends/vacation while you're still enlisted.
(If you want to come to NJ, you could do mine.)

Then see how the reality jibes with your hopes.

Because a big part of a successful"flip" (from what I know about it) has little to do with hammer and nails, and everything to do with hiring subcontractors, handling permits, managing budgets and hitting deadlines, things that were probably part of the old job you're trying to get away from.

(BTW, thanks for the kind words--we were both typing at the same time I think. I've actually written just about everyplace *but* The New Yorker. Funny is as funny does, I guess.)

[Avincent52]

...

[Mikej]

Jim
So why don't you start out working as a contractor?
Take a job working on someone's bathroom or kitchen evenings/weekends/vacation while you're still enlisted.
(If you want to come to NJ, you could do mine.)

Then see how the reality jibes with your hopes.

Because a big part of a successful"flip" (from what I know about it) has little to do with hammer and nails, and everything to do with hiring subcontractors, handling permits, managing budgets and hitting deadlines, things that were probably part of the old job you're trying to get away from.

(BTW, thanks for the kind words--we were both typing at the same time I think. I've actually written just about everyplace *but* The New Yorker. Funny is as funny does, I guess.)

GC needs a license, then a group of subs he can trust. San Diego may not be the place to learn. I'd be gunnin' for that G job -

[oldpotatoe]

thats the problem with JSF...it doesnt do it's job! but lockheed sure did do a great sales-job!

but i digress...lots of great ideas and thoughts for the OP to plan for his next phase...i'd be curious about what his military experience included, to give more relevant ideas for things to consider. i work for a tech company and was in our DoD practice for ~8 years in the enterprise logistics/supply-chain space...and there is always a place for smart, motivated, and experienced ex-military folks to do things that are more interesting than just crossing the street and trading your CAC-card for a contractor-badge.

Even the Phantom had problems when it was new. The F-35 has some issues but it's still one of only 2 true 5th generation fighters in existence and the only super sonic VTOL aircraft. Even as under developed it is now, it's still better avionics wise than any SU or MIG series or Rafale/EuroFighter/Viggen

Besides, the F-15/16/18 are 2 decade old+ designs, time for a new aircraft. If you look at similar time line in development of any other fighter from any country, you'll see the same issues. Avionics wise, F-35 clearly superior to even F-22.

[oldpotatoe]

They are proposing no more "20 year retirements" instead after 12-14 years you get a crappy 401k- thanks Obama!

Gee, I retired in 1993 and they had been saying that for about 10 years. As for thanking Obama, you need to do some research about who's idea this may be. The president doesn't do fiscal policy like this, congress does.

But the first window is proposed to be at 15 years, with a standard retirement at 20 for those that qualify. Right now, with up or out, you leave at 15 years you get nothing, pension wise.

Stay with any company for 10 years and you leave, you get that crappy 401k, thank the company.

[Mikej]

Gee, I retired in 1993 and they had been saying that for about 10 years. As for thanking Obama, you need to do some research about who's idea this may be. The president doesn't do fiscal policy like this, congress does.

But the first window is proposed to be at 15 years, with a standard retirement at 20 for those that qualify. Right now, with up or out, you leave at 15 years you get nothing, pension wise.

Stay with any company for 10 years and you leave, you get that crappy 401k, thank the company.

Obama proposal and supports retirement pay reduction and troops paying their health care. Not to drift. Google it -

[oldpotatoe]

Obama supports it and troops paying their health care in proposals in the current military budget. Not to drift.

I'll take your word for it but who wrote it, who approved it and where is the 12-14 get out with '401k' in lieu of a 20 year retirement? That would be congress, btw. But no 12-14 get out provision.


Troops paying their own health care? Sorry-no.

[Avincent52]

GC needs a license, then a group of subs he can trust. San Diego may not be the place to learn. I'd be gunnin' for that G job -

Okay. How about just taking one job working on a friend's house or doing day labor for a contractor who's already licensed.
I'm just saying that there is a difference between the "Honey Do" list and working as a contractor and before you go too far down the road, it makes sense to really try it out.

[oldpotatoe]

Obama proposal and supports retirement pay reduction and troops paying their health care. Not to drift. Google it -

So what, he doesn't write law or budgets. Even if it had legs(it doesn't), he'll be playing golf in Hawaii full time before anything like this is really in a defense budget.

What has legs is a 25 year retirement vice 20, I think that's a good idea
So the '12-14 year retirement with some silly 401k, thanks Obama' may be a bit of political theater on your part.

[Mikej]

so what, he doesn't write law or budgets. Even if it had legs(it doesn't), he'll be playing golf in hawaii full time before anything like this is really in a defense budget.

What has legs is a 25 year retirement vice 20, i think that's a good idea
so the '12-14 year retirement with some silly 401k, thanks obama' may be a bit of political theater on your part.

dude - what ever - it was in the paper - i dont care -why do you argue everything?

[oldpotatoe]

dude - what ever - it was in the paper - i dont care -why do you argue everything?

I don't, dude. But do I wish to have accuracy when it comes to military matters? Why yes I do, guilty. There's enough bad gouge out there already.

[majorpat]

As far as the new compensation/retirement plan, if you are already in you are under the old system or you can opt for whatever finally gets approved. Old Potatoe is right, Congress is driving this bus, but don't be fooled, each service supports it because it deals with their most expensive line item - personnel costs. Either way, the 20 year retirement paradigm probably needs a fresh take and the President will merely be at the end of the line to sign it into law.
Honestly, for the newer generations working without the expectation or deisre for a defined pension, the new proposal may be a good deal. It would be for JimCav as he would have something when he decided to walk away from active duty.
On another note, don't disregard Guard/Reserve as each unit has a small cadre of active guard/reserve (AGR) positions and dual-status military technicians that are full time. In my case: 9 years active USMC, 5 years USMCR, out for 4 years then Air National Guard AGR for the last 5.5 years. Currently over 20 for pay calculation with 15 active years and I will retire in 5 more with active duty retirement starting the next day. Dual status mil techs will double dip: collect GS retirement and Guard/Reserve retirement at 60. Many ways to skin the cat.
Pat

[fuzzalow]

Thank you for the clarification on ^ majorpat. There will never be the word pension in my lexicon, especially with the words "defined benefit".

It was well and proper that dude got whipped for the cheap, gratuitous shot on the sitting president. Who, while apparently not in control of the facts but certainly in control of his vitriol, chose to ready, fire, aim. Well, at least dude reads, so he says.

Thanks oldpotatoe.

[Mikej]

M[QUOTE=fuzzalow;1842633]Thank you for the clarification on ^ majorpat. There will never be the word pension in my lexicon, especially with the words "defined benefit".

It was well and proper that dude got whipped for the cheap, gratuitous shot on the sitting president. Who, while apparently not in control of the facts but certainly in control of his vitriol, chose to ready, fire, aim. Well, at least dude reads, so he says.

Thanks oldpotatoe.[/QUOTE

I am a combat decorated Marine btw - I will say again what I originally stated - Barrak Obama supports a 401k style pension for the military.(this is not to help the service member) He also supports health care benefits being paid for by service members (this also is not meant to help the service member, along with said service members 1% raises). It can be read in multiple National news papers so go and read it - i did not claim it is or was going to be law, it's out there and I sarcastically thanked Obama for it because it is not meant to help the people doing the hardest job on the planet of which I have done as a U.S. MARINE - -it is meant to take things away so politicians can look good. So please carry on with your disrespectful tone toward me in the safety of your house, provided by guess who?
And to jimcav my apologies for this thread not being kept straight - I am out of here.

[oldpotatoe]

[QUOTE=fuzzalow;1842633]Thank you for the clarification on ^ majorpat. There will never be the word pension in my lexicon, especially with the words "defined benefit".

It was well and proper that dude got whipped for the cheap, gratuitous shot on the sitting president. Who, while apparently not in control of the facts but certainly in control of his vitriol, chose to ready, fire, aim. Well, at least dude reads, so he says.

Thanks oldpotatoe.[/QUOTE

I am a combat decorated Marine btw - I will say again what I originally stated - Barrak Obama supports a 401k style pension for the military.(this is not to help the service member) He also supports health care benefits being paid for by service members (this also is not meant to help the service member, along with said service members 1% raises). It can be read in multiple National news papers so go and read it - i did not claim it is or was going to be law, it's out there and I sarcastically thanked Obama for it because it is not meant to help the people doing the hardest job on the planet of which I have done as a U.S. MARINE - -it is meant to take things away so politicians can look good. So please carry on with your disrespectful tone toward me in the safety of your house, provided by guess who?

Thank you for your service.

[wallymann]

So please carry on with your disrespectful tone toward me in the safety of your house, provided by guess who?

maybe OP would thank you for your service, after you first thank him for his service. i thought marines generally werent so prickly.

[wallymann]

Even the Phantom had problems when it was new. The F-35 has some issues but it's still one of only 2 true 5th generation fighters in existence and the only super sonic VTOL aircraft. Even as under developed it is now, it's still better avionics wise than any SU or MIG series or Rafale/EuroFighter/Viggen

Besides, the F-15/16/18 are 2 decade old+ designs, time for a new aircraft. If you look at similar time line in development of any other fighter from any country, you'll see the same issues. Avionics wise, F-35 clearly superior to even F-22.

yabbut...the JSF will cost something very close to $200 MILLION PER PLANE. it was sold as an all-aspect 5th generation fighter that could dogfight and be a bomb-truck. right now it cant get out of it's own way in a dogfight and 4th-gen fighters can eat it for lunch all day long. JSF will rely on the tiny fleet of raptors for protection. a useful weapon load must be carried externally so it loses all of it's stealthy advantages. the phantom had problems, the tomcat had problems...the JSF IS the problem. it's a modern version of the Navy's failed attempt to adopt the F111.

i agree with you that the JSF will eventually be a reasonably-OK airplane. BUT it will COST MANY MULTIPLES of what it was supposed to cost to acquire, the cost to maintain it will also be MULTIPLES higher than what it was supposed to cost, and it will never deliver all of the promised capabilities.

a much better use of our tax dollars would have been to reopen raptor production and modernize the avionics suite. and also buy a BOATLOAD of new-build vipers and eagles to haul bombs around with raptors maintaining air superiority.

[bigbill]

I am using a headhunter very specific to the same work, which is what is stressing me--I don't enjoy it. I will look into a more general approach like you describe with Lucas. I still have to do the TAPS class or whatever they call it now so maybe will get leads there too

I did TAPS and thought it was a waste of time, but a required waste of time. It isn't geared around people who have put any thought into getting out. Resume writing, interview skills, how to wear a suit, etc. Stuff you probably know now.

The company sends me out on recruiting trips a few times a year. I've probably interviewed 50 people this year for jobs ranging from hourly fork lift operators to senior project engineers. The key is doing well on STAR interviews. Situation or Task, Action you took, and the Result of your action. The ability to relate your experiences to answer questions. Companies are interviewing people like you to see if you're a cultural fit and your ability to make sound decisions.

[majorpat]

Go easy, devildog. I'm not hassling you, just giving my two cents. Sure, the new plan is less awesome for those that get to the magic 20 years, but only about 20% of service members do the full 20. The new proposal at least gives something to those who serve less than 20. Will it be a good deal to have active duty pay for healthcare? No, but who knows what the final plan will actually entail. Is taking the career status bonus and REDUX pension a good deal? Depends on your circumstances, I guess.
Look, I don't advocate lessening veteran benefits or attempts to financially screw a 19 year old Lance Corporal out of cash for the promise of a "nest egg" he can't access until he hits 60 but it is also prudent to look at military compensation in light of the work/saving trends of a younger generation. I do think that the Post 9/11 GI Bill is a vast improvement over the Montgomery GI Bill so let's give things a chance to play out. Currently, these are just proposals until signed into law and will be scrutinized before they get there.
Finally, does our current President support these proposals? As you state, and from what I read the answer is yes. However, it is not accurate to portray these proposals as ideas generated solely from the White House.
Pat

[fuzzalow]

I am a combat decorated Marine btw - I will say again what I originally stated - Barrak Obama supports a 401k style pension for the military.(this is not to help the service member) He also supports health care benefits being paid for by service members (this also is not meant to help the service member, along with said service members 1% raises). It can be read in multiple National news papers so go and read it - i did not claim it is or was going to be law, it's out there and I sarcastically thanked Obama for it because it is not meant to help the people doing the hardest job on the planet of which I have done as a U.S. MARINE - -it is meant to take things away so politicians can look good.

We can debate and discuss policy and the merits and positions of issues and arguments surrounding veterans without resorting to personalizing snark to the president. I am not informed about the particulars of veteran retirement plans to have an opinion. I am willing to hear what you have to say, if you have something to voice other than frustration. Maybe getting more people, and people like me, to be informed by your plight would help your cause. Because I vote.

Make your case. What good is sarcasm gonna do you? Do you think Obama is listening for what you say? I was not and am not predisposed against you and I was willing to listen.

So please carry on with your disrespectful tone toward me in the safety of your house, provided by guess who?
And to jimcav my apologies for this thread not being kept straight - I am out of here.

This safety is the result of the collective national will of the United States of America to maintain the alert and readiness posture that we do. Conducted by our elected Government in command of our Armed Services in which you had proudly served. And in which each and every American taxpayer also commits to this effort. You chose to serve. That I did not serve does not make me any less an American and a patriot.

Your service does not preclude my freedom to voice my disagreement over your remarks. What you misconstrue as disrespectful tone is my freedom to disagree with your unconstructive snark which distracted and derailed any further discussion of the issues.

[ofcounsel]

So please carry on with your disrespectful tone toward me in the safety of your house, provided by guess who?


Interesting Col. Jessep complex.....

Demanding respect for ones actions or activities invariably results in the opposite effect.

[eddief]

devolving into the toilet.

[oldpotatoe]

yabbut...the JSF will cost something very close to $200 MILLION PER PLANE. it was sold as an all-aspect 5th generation fighter that could dogfight and be a bomb-truck. right now it cant get out of it's own way in a dogfight and 4th-gen fighters can eat it for lunch all day long. JSF will rely on the tiny fleet of raptors for protection. a useful weapon load must be carried externally so it loses all of it's stealthy advantages. the phantom had problems, the tomcat had problems...the JSF IS the problem. it's a modern version of the Navy's failed attempt to adopt the F111.

i agree with you that the JSF will eventually be a reasonably-OK airplane. BUT it will COST MANY MULTIPLES of what it was supposed to cost to acquire, the cost to maintain it will also be MULTIPLES higher than what it was supposed to cost, and it will never deliver all of the promised capabilities.

a much better use of our tax dollars would have been to reopen raptor production and modernize the avionics suite. and also buy a BOATLOAD of new-build vipers and eagles to haul bombs around with raptors maintaining air superiority.

You saw the same report I did. It isn't quite as bad as all that. When the F-18 was new(I was in VX-4, doing developmental test of it), it got beat up on by F-14s all the time. AND VX-4 gave it a 'fail'...lots of engineers and software later..it passed but initially at sea it was a mess.

The F-14 was the USN version of the F-111..a platform to carry the Phoenix, period. A crappier Aircraft I did not fly. F-14, very expensive, not really capable, glad its gone.

As for the USN...yes, there are lots of proposals upgrading the F-18E/F to more stealthy platforms but this has gone on for years. When the Hornet was coming on line I saw Grumman try to sell the Tomcat-21, Bombcat, essentially a F-14 version of the F-15E. I saw this pitch while at VX-4, in a 'private' suite of Grumman..during Tailhook in 'Vegas:eek:

Also saw a TigerShark..J79 version of F-5 to compete with F-16, a SuperSonic A-7..

The other issue is that it started to come online in the 2007/8 world economic crisis, so that the international buy is much smaller...

Lastly and apologize for the drift..the F-15/16 assembly lines are gone. All the stuff they make to make the aircraft, when the run is complete, this stuff is destroyed, not stored. The F-15 'may' be open because of the F-15E but pretty sure the F-16 one is gone. BUT old design, firmly Cat4, they would be Cat4 'light'. AND cost to retool would be HUGE.

Regardless the JSF is a coming. It will slowly replace older, block 30 ish F-16, 'legacy' F-18 and all AV-8s..AND a fair amount of older Hornets and Vipers in foreign countries.

[zennmotion]

I will give that a try and see what it points me to--doesn't cost much1

The parachute book is a classic, but one I like better is Zen and the Art of Making a Living (the title and my monicker are coincidental, but I wish I wrote it!) The parachute book is a little more pragmatic, the Zen book gets down to what role work has in your life. I've used it at several career changes and it resonates for me, maybe you too.
http://www.amazon.com/Zen-Art-Making-Living-Practical/dp/014311459X

[fuzzalow]

My contretemps with Mikej was not motivated by rebuttal to his villainizing of politicians but as a genuine interest to the changes to landscape regarding both retirement benefits and healthcare benefits earned by our Armed Services veterans.

These issues have become much more complex in the post 9/11 world because the United States has remained on war footing since that event and the nature and composition of the men & women that comprise our fighting forces has changed. There is a marked difference between career military and what is, by appearance and service duration, job seeker military. It is only correct that the structure of how the U.S. Government and the U.S. Taxpayer is obligated to retirement benefits for these segments of the military to also evolve accordingly.

We, as a nation, bear the responsibility and financial burden in taking care of our veterans who sustain injury and complications as a result of their service in harms way. There must be a fair distinction between what the nation cares for as far as injury versus what the veteran, as private citizen, is responsible for as what would be equivalent to normative health care.

We, as a nation, are not responsible for retirement benefits accorded to persons that have not earned those pensions for reasons of length of service. There is a clear delineation between benefits that have been rightfully earned by career military and what has not been earned by job seeker military. My interest in this subject is how fairly and properly both segments of our veterans are treated. And also considering the interests of the U.S. taxpayer. My hope is that no one is giving short shrift for what they have rightfully earned. But I also recognize that opportunism exists by those who seek rewards that exceed the merits of their service.

[oldpotatoe]

My contretemps with Mikej was not motivated by rebuttal to his villainizing of politicians but as a genuine interest to the changes to landscape regarding both retirement benefits and healthcare benefits earned by our Armed Services veterans.

These issues have become much more complex in the post 9/11 world because the United States has remained on war footing since that event and the nature and composition of the men & women that comprise our fighting forces has changed. There is a marked difference between career military and what is, by appearance and service duration, job seeker military. It is only correct that the structure of how the U.S. Government and the U.S. Taxpayer is obligated to retirement benefits for these segments of the military to also evolve accordingly.

We, as a nation, bear the responsibility and financial burden in taking care of our veterans who sustain injury and complications as a result of their service in harms way. There must be a fair distinction between what the nation cares for as far as injury versus what the veteran, as private citizen, is responsible for as what would be equivalent to normative health care.

We, as a nation, are not responsible for retirement benefits accorded to persons that have not earned those pensions for reasons of length of service. There is a clear delineation between benefits that have been rightfully earned by career military and what has not been earned by job seeker military. My interest in this subject is how fairly and properly both segments of our veterans are treated. And also considering the interests of the U.S. taxpayer. My hope is that no one is giving short shrift for what they have rightfully earned. But I also recognize that opportunism exists by those who seek rewards that exceed the merits of their service.

Well said, as I heard for a long time, 'no rewards for faithful service'. Just hanging around long enough didn't cut it. It had to be earned.

[fuzzalow]

The F-14 was the USN version of the F-111..a platform to carry the Phoenix, period. A crappier Aircraft I did not fly. F-14, very expensive, not really capable, glad its gone.

That F-14 to forever be mythologized by Hollywood as something it wasn't (i.e. Top Gun dog fighter). I could never square the bulk of that aircraft to be possible as an air superiority platform other than as a fleet defense Phoenix missile shooter.

I've told this story before when during Fleet Week the JFK was anchored in NY Harbor and I worked in an office tower along Front Street in lower Manhattan. Four F-14s in formation flew past the building, navigating the air space over the East River, flying at the same level of which I was sitting because we were on the highest floors in the building. The surprising thing was how slowly they could fly, wings in semi-swept position - slow motion formation! Hard to believe how slow until you've actually seen it.

I think I understood the F-14 after that. That aircraft was never an air-to-air fighter, it was a missile shooter that could assume station at the outer range of the battle group's defense perimeter and loiter for a long time, flying as slowly as I saw that day, while waiting for something to shoot a long-range Phoenix missile at. I guess it beats flying tankers but it is a long way from Top Gun fantasies that I might believe as being true because as a civilian I saw F-14s in the movies.

Well said, as I heard for a long time, 'no rewards for faithful service'. Just hanging around long enough didn't cut it. It had to be earned.

I am not trying to be harsh on the veterans of the modern, all-volunteer Armed Services. They face up to and do the heavy lifting for many things FUBAR about what our fighting men & women are asked to do. But they cannot feel entitled to a pension and retirement package to be more generous than they have earned and merited through their own continuous service, however long it might have been. For example, working any job for 6 years won't get much as far as retirement benefits anywhere, public or private sector. So those guys in the military that tried it and didn't make a career at it don't deserve, or have earned, the taxpayers to give them a pension.

[oldpotatoe]

That F-14 to forever be mythologized by Hollywood as something it wasn't (i.e. Top Gun dog fighter). I could never square the bulk of that aircraft to be possible as an air superiority platform other than as a fleet defense Phoenix missile shooter.

I've told this story before when during Fleet Week the JFK was anchored in NY Harbor and I worked in an office tower along Front Street in lower Manhattan. Four F-14s in formation flew past the building, navigating the air space over the East River, flying at the same level of which I was sitting because we were on the highest floors in the building. The surprising thing was how slowly they could fly, wings in semi-swept position - slow motion formation! Hard to believe how slow until you've actually seen it.

I think I understood the F-14 after that. That aircraft was never an air-to-air fighter, it was a missile shooter that could assume station at the outer range of the battle group's defense perimeter and loiter for a long time, flying as slowly as I saw that day, while waiting for something to shoot a long-range Phoenix missile at. I guess it beats flying tankers but it is a long way from Top Gun fantasies that I might believe as being true because as a civilian I saw F-14s in the movies.



I am not trying to be harsh on the veterans of the modern, all-volunteer Armed Services. They face up to and do the heavy lifting for many things FUBAR about what our fighting men & women are asked to do. But they cannot feel entitled to a pension and retirement package to be more generous than they have earned and merited through their own continuous service, however long it might have been. For example, working any job for 6 years won't get much as far as retirement benefits anywhere, public or private sector. So those guys in the military that tried it and didn't make a career at it don't deserve, or have earned, the taxpayers to give them a pension.

That's all it was..last tour, did a thing called 'Vector Logic'...essentially 300-400 from boat, on vectors, looking for Bears carrying AS-4 or the pathfinder looking for boat.

F-14 had a nasty habit of snuffing engines(TF-30) and breaking 'torque tubes' on manuvering flaps. The F-14B was going to be a much better aircraft but it got axed. "D" model better but the F-14s days were numbered by then, killed by the 'hornet mafia'...It was still an early 70s technology aircraft..good for airshows if you could get OBC to run(raining? no On Board Check-no fly).

Only one true tech item in TopGun...kudos to anybody who knows it..Otherwise is was a really silly movie. Knew a fair number of guys who either were in the movie or helped with it.

tom cruise is a short little ····e.

[majorpat]

I am not trying to be harsh on the veterans of the modern, all-volunteer Armed Services. They face up to and do the heavy lifting for many things FUBAR about what our fighting men & women are asked to do. But they cannot feel entitled to a pension and retirement package to be more generous than they have earned and merited through their own continuous service, however long it might have been. For example, working any job for 6 years won't get much as far as retirement benefits anywhere, public or private sector. So those guys in the military that tried it and didn't make a career at it don't deserve, or have earned, the taxpayers to give them a pension.

So that is the gist of the new proposals. There is no pension earned after 4 or 6 or whatever number of years. During your enlistment you would get less $$ in each paycheck with those dollars plus some sort of match from the govt put in a 401k style account. The idea being that you would have something of an investment despite serving less than 20 years. No one would get a pension after a single 4 year enlistment, just some money in an account that could be accessed upon retirement. Most of the rub is based on no defined pension for those that actually make it to 20, just what you and Uncle Sugar have contributed to your 401k style account.

As far as what you've earned as a veteran? Some argue the fairness of say a 20 year guy who somehow never deployed and maybe maintained roads on stateside bases getting a pension while a rifleman who did two combat deployments in four years actually getting shot at gets bupkus. Just something to chew on.

Pat

[gone]

As far as what you've earned as a veteran? Some argue the fairness of say a 20 year guy who somehow never deployed and maybe maintained roads on stateside bases getting a pension while a rifleman who did two combat deployments in four years actually getting shot at gets bupkus. Just something to chew on.

Pat
I am a veteran that never deployed and fully agree with this. I saw guys retire at 20-30 after doing Fl->Hawaii->Fl->Italy->Ca careers. I just never felt it was right that they'd walk away with 3/4 base pay after 30, usually straight into a govt job, while those doing the real heavy lifting (getting shot at) would potentially get less unless they stuck it out.

I thought a fair system would be everyone starts off with 30 year retirement minimum. Every year you spend deployed gets some kind of multiplier off e.g., combat zone years count 4 for 1, unaccompanied assignment in a non-combat zone counts 2 for one, etc.

I do like one aspect of the current proposal in that you don't walk away with nothing if you don't go until full retirement.

[Dave B]

I love military folks, not another job that has as much pride in it.


Jim walk out on this limb with me. Look into teaching...full stop.

You being in California means there are schools out there who NEED teachers an Cali is the worst.

The pay isn't great, but 16 weeks paid vacation, done by 3-3:30, work with kids who will be fascinated with your previous career and you actually make a difference in someone's life, well if you care enough about them. The health benefits tend to be ok and you will use it as parents send their kids to school with all sorts of ailments that are fun to share!

I don't always love my job, but it can be pretty sweet. Oh and you get a bonus every winter holiday or homemade cookies, weird gifts, and gift cards to places you have never heard of.

[bigbill]

Jim, you can take on as much or as little responsibility as you want in your next career. When I hired in to my present job, they hired me as an engineer but wanted me to be an operations manager. I held them to their offer and worked as an engineer Monday-Friday 0700-1600 with the occasional engineering coverage for project startups. When I retired, I had just finished up a deployment, homeport shift, and a long shipyard period. I was burned out and wanted nothing to do with managing anyone other than myself.

Three years later, I'm starting to burn out on engineering a little. I miss making the calls on projects and managing people. I'm over my retirement burnout so I interview this Friday for my old boss's job. I'll probably get it.

I did 27 years in the military. 20 deployments. I never really took a break in all those years, I served on 4 submarines with only a 3 year break that involved rotating shiftwork. I commissioned off my last submarine and went on to consecutive carrier tours with 4 deployments. I should have taken a break but I wanted to get that SWO pin out of the way. My last tour on the NIMITZ gave me a heart attack exactly a year before my retirement date.

The good thing about entering the civilian world is that you can quit and your employer knows that. If you are in demand, an employer is more willing to work to keep you "happy". Keeping you is cheaper than recruiting another person. It's not something to be abused, but I've found that my bosses have been open and honest as long as I am as well.

[jimcav]

[QUOTE=bigbill;I was burned out and wanted nothing to do with managing anyone other /QUOTE]

I understand the managing skillset is the most likely asset but I too am tired of it but I have to hope in civilian work you just fire the baggage instead of suffering with them as we do in DoD

[jimcav]

I do like teaching. Not sure I could do common core. I've had years of having to follow or implement policy I think is asinine so not sure I could do it and also don't think I have the right credentials for teaching, but it is certainly worth finding out the requirements
QUOTE=Mr.President;1843803]I love military folks, not another job that has as much pride in it.


Jim walk out on this limb with me. Look into teaching...full stop.

You being in California means there are schools out there who NEED teachers an Cali is the worst.

The pay isn't great, but 16 weeks paid vacation, done by 3-3:30, work with kids who will be fascinated with your previous career and you actually make a difference in someone's life, well if you care enough about them. The health benefits tend to be ok and you will use it as parents send their kids to school with all sorts of ailments that are fun to share!

I don't always love my job, but it can be pretty sweet. Oh and you get a bonus every winter holiday or homemade cookies, weird gifts, and gift cards to places you have never heard of.[/QUOTE]

[alessandro]

Jimcav, this is exciting--good luck with figuring out what's next.

I was a journalist for ten years, including some freelance. I dabbled in PR for a couple of years, then worked for two years as a writer/program manager/wrangler of the cranky older Italian boss for a tiny nonprofit that funded medical research. That was enough to put research on my resume, which led to my current job. I manage clinical trials at an academic medical center. I've been there 10 years, which is twice as long as at any other employer.

Fortune favors the prepared. For me, I had some relevant experience, but was also lucky in finding an employer that was looking for somebody like me at that time. You're still at the stage where you're determining where to look, which is both refreshing (a chance to reinvent one's self) and a bit daunting.

Companies are interviewing people like you to see if you're a cultural fit and your ability to make sound decisions.
Some great advice right there.

[alessandro]

Jim
If they point you toward author/freelance journalist, I'd reconsider and perhaps move toward something marketable like reality show host or killer for hire. Ask me how I know.

OK. How do you know?
Jerry Springer was a Cincinnati city councilman, mayor for one year, TV news anchor, and tabloid talk show host. So there's definitely a career path there. Oh, and now he has a podcast :rolleyes:

[fuzzalow]

So that is the gist of the new proposals. There is no pension earned after 4 or 6 or whatever number of years. During your enlistment you would get less $$ in each paycheck with those dollars plus some sort of match from the govt put in a 401k style account. The idea being that you would have something of an investment despite serving less than 20 years. No one would get a pension after a single 4 year enlistment, just some money in an account that could be accessed upon retirement. Most of the rub is based on no defined pension for those that actually make it to 20, just what you and Uncle Sugar have contributed to your 401k style account.

As far as what you've earned as a veteran? Some argue the fairness of say a 20 year guy who somehow never deployed and maybe maintained roads on stateside bases getting a pension while a rifleman who did two combat deployments in four years actually getting shot at gets bupkus. Just something to chew on.

Pat

Thanks for the reply. I know very little about how the pension and benefits system works for those in the military and how the accrual of those benefits works. I couldn't offer any insight into fixing the problem because Human Resources is not my field and my own experience in the private sector is limited to the 401-k which is a simple savings plan. "Defined Benefit" will never feature anywhere in my lifetime.

I don't know what the career path for someone in the military looks like so I can't know how much time in a career is spent in the fronts of the battlefield, at the highest levels of danger, versus other jobs/tasks in the military that offer substantially less exposure to injury and death. I do know that the logistics of warfare have an overhead as far as personnel in support to the actual numbers of fighting soldiers deployable into the field, something like 3 support to 1 combat soldier. I do not know if a battlefield soldier is the only job possible with no hope of career advancement to a job with less hazard. In that case, making it to retirement age only as a career battlefield soldier would seem a virtual impossibility.

I am confident that I am not the only civilian that won't know the full details about what veterans must navigate through in the Byzantine pathways of both government and military bureaucracy. I am not unsympathetic nor am I heartless and my interest in this topic is evidence to a genuine concern for veterans that goes beyond the platitude of blithely saying "thank you for your service" proffered with a vapid, ignorant smile.

The all volunteer Armed Services and possibly a permanent war footing has opened up the inevitable consequence of people moving in and out of the military, as might be found in any industry and occupation. I do not find anything wrong with anyone trying and not making a career of the military - every person is entitled to find their own way in life in their own pursuit of happiness. However I am extremely cautious towards those that desire respect, admiration or benefits for a level and quality of service they did not achieve through their own accomplishments. They often seem to elevate themselves simply because they once wore the uniform and this is unfair and disrespectful to those veterans that had served admirably and with distinction over the course of a lifetime.

My apologies to jimcav on this drift, but I do not find this topic OT outta left field and I wanted something constructive outta the conversation.

[Mikej]

Look- anybody who has put on a uniform in our armed forces is deserving of credit-honorably discharged- you do not have to serve a lifetime. And I really don't expect everybody to be an Infantry Man on the front line of a war or conflict to get respect- most people have no idea that you can have a military occupation such as Motor T or admin and have been in more danger or fire fights than a "special ops" guy because when the ···· goes down the cooks will be throwing spatulas and admin clip boards (figuratively I don't want any body who has zero idea to think the grunts only give everybody else pencils and fry pans)- obviously I have to state that not ALL USMC admin or motor t have been in more danger than spec ops, grunts etc., but we need motor t and admin so the bullets and bandages get to the correct place. If you served in the most gravy duty station where the air was so "dewy sweet you didn't have to lick the stamps" for 30 years you get the same as everybody else- that is just how it works - we called it "TEAM WORK" we need support - the Corps is only about 30% infantry/ armor/ artillery / "business end" of the job -it takes the other 70% +/- of the jobs to make certain the grunts can do the job" - stealth bomber pilot = infantry support- but you would never dis a bomber pilot? Or say -Optic control as a probably never heard of occupation - but do you think the men in the infantry need their TOW missles to shoot straight and thier NVG sights to work? Or the 25mm chain gun or mortars to work? And when it comes down to it those same optic guys will be on patrol at night -so ALL get respect - even if you didn't deploy to a combat zone. And by the way, women in the USMC also retire @ 20 years without ever being in the infantry and they deserve it. The 20 year retirement is not a given because you want it - it is earned with a myriad of statistics and requirements through that 20 years that would blow your mind. Seriously it is very competitive and there are NO GIFTS like I see in the civilian world where people work thier asses of but don't do march madness or fantasy land footbal so they get looked over for sports tv quote guy.

[93legendti]

Not sure how it is in the US military, but in the IDF, there are 5 support soldiers for every combat soldier. I have friends who are career sergeants and they are indispensable. One of the best meals I ever had on an IDF base was a recon tank unit's base outside Nablus (a city currently in the news for the torching of Joseph's Tomb by a certain peaceful group). My friend was the commander of the unit and his soldiers sure loved the cook - and it wasn't because he was a nice guy.

Non combat soldiers serve an invaluable role. Period. Airplane mechanics, truck drivers hauling troops, fuel, food, ammunition, mail, are serving patriotically. Period. Not everyone in the military can fire a weapon and not everyone should. (If you know the story of Gilad Shalit, he should not have been in a combat unit. He should have done his national service doing something else.) Service is service. It's necessary and admirable.

[fuzzalow]

There is not even the hint of belief from me that places a greater or lesser value on any job completed to the highest standards by any of our fighting men and women. I do not value and admire a support role any less than that of a combat role. They all serve with valor and I recognize this explicitly. I don't know how I might have miscommunicated and my apologies if that were the case.

The point I was trying to understand was does an infantryman have no progress in a career other than as an infantryman? Because anybody conducting an occupation and role as hazardous as battle front work would seem impossible to stay alive for that long, much less be capable of making use of retirement benefits earned after 20 years. Wouldn't such a person transition to a less stressful, less deadly and less hazardous role and responsibility within their Service Branch to any role other than a combat role? Would not their battlefield experience be valuable in another capacity other than reinserting them into the direct theater of battle?

OK, I think I get the issue about the proposed change in pension to be more like a 401-k savings plan versus what is today a defined benefit plan based on attained payscale after completing 20 years of active service. But under the old plan it was all or none, if you didn't make 20 years you were as good as dead if you left the service at 19 years.

In a 401-k you MUST contribute otherwise you're cutting your own throat whereas in a defined pension you get the benefit as some % of pay and there is no requirement to save for your own retirement. On face value this new plan is not attractive to 20-year vets but to those that don't make 20 years there at least is the option to save.

Y'know, I seek to understand the issues whether I have a direct involvement with them or not. Because I am a citizen, because I actually GAS about how veterans get treated and because I vote. Ideas and principles mean something to me because it is these ideas and principles that are the bedrock of any democracy. Really, it isn't all about me, I have much to be thankful for and if I were only thinking about myself it'd be pretty damn boring!

I would never likely vote for Bernie Sanders but he is right about needing millions upon millions of people to wake up and be more aware and more active and more involved in their democracy and our country.

Look at it from a slightly cynical viewpoint if you wish - I already pay a lot in taxes but even so, not as much as I used to even under the tax code under Reagan. I wouldn't be happy about paying more but if I did, I could be OK with it if that money was to benefit the middle-class and people that need it. Not that I am wealthy but the corporations don't need my help. I'll pay more, and a few percent won't make that much difference - even if I initially don't like it - I don't pretend to be a saint.

[majorpat]

Fuzzalow,
I appreciate your interest in what is for the vast majority, a niche issue, but one that I am involved in intimately. You have the gist of the new proposal on retirement.

Bernie is right, too many of us are stumbling blindly and ignoring our responsibilities as citizens. I'm glad to serve, hope I've earned whatever benefits I receive in the future and recognize that they come from the pockets of my fellow Americans.

Pat

[fuzzalow]

majorpat,

It sounds like you are doing the good work in understanding and helping other vets with the changing pension structure and to guide them to cope & plan for their retirement futures. Actions such as yours give credence to the saying "proud to be an American".

As far as this perhaps being a niche issue, well it isn't one to the veterans impacted by it. And it isn't a niche issue to the taxpayers and citizens concerned with veterans getting a fair shake. I am but one vote but I can be one of many.

[oldpotatoe]

Look- anybody who has put on a uniform in our armed forces is deserving of credit-honorably discharged- you do not have to serve a lifetime. And I really don't expect everybody to be an Infantry Man on the front line of a war or conflict to get respect- most people have no idea that you can have a military occupation such as Motor T or admin and have been in more danger or fire fights than a "special ops" guy because when the ï½·ï½·ï½·ï½· goes down the cooks will be throwing spatulas and admin clip boards (figuratively I don't want any body who has zero idea to think the grunts only give everybody else pencils and fry pans)- obviously I have to state that not ALL USMC admin or motor t have been in more danger than spec ops, grunts etc., but we need motor t and admin so the bullets and bandages get to the correct place. If you served in the most gravy duty station where the air was so "dewy sweet you didn't have to lick the stamps" for 30 years you get the same as everybody else- that is just how it works - we called it "TEAM WORK" we need support - the Corps is only about 30% infantry/ armor/ artillery / "business end" of the job -it takes the other 70% +/- of the jobs to make certain the grunts can do the job" - stealth bomber pilot = infantry support- but you would never dis a bomber pilot? Or say -Optic control as a probably never heard of occupation - but do you think the men in the infantry need their TOW missles to shoot straight and thier NVG sights to work? Or the 25mm chain gun or mortars to work? And when it comes down to it those same optic guys will be on patrol at night -so ALL get respect - even if you didn't deploy to a combat zone. And by the way, women in the USMC also retire @ 20 years without ever being in the infantry and they deserve it. The 20 year retirement is not a given because you want it - it is earned with a myriad of statistics and requirements through that 20 years that would blow your mind. Seriously it is very competitive and there are NO GIFTS like I see in the civilian world where people work thier asses of but don't do march madness or fantasy land footbal so they get looked over for sports tv quote guy.

Don't want to speak for Fuzz, but I'm thinkin' he agrees with you, I know I do. I think what he's saying is if you do one or two enlistments(8 years) or get a commission and resign that after you minimum time(depends on warfare specialty, at least in USN), say in 10 years or so...you don't really 'deserve' a pension. Sounds like with the new set up, ala a 401k type gig, these people will get 'something' but I read the 20 year 'pension' will stay in place.

But those who wear the uniform and do so honorably get MY respect cuz I know how hard it is at all levels.