OT: Do you think VW dealers are dealing?

[eddief]

Might be a good time to buy a non TDI VW?

[Avincent52]

Maybe, but I think you're gambling that this gets sorted out.
The fines and the lawsuits could bankrupt VW several times over, so they'll need a bailout from the German govt.
Beyond that, there's the question of how this will affect the resale value of even the non-diesel versions, because consumers aren't always very savvy about these distinctions.

[dave thompson]

The emissions scandal coupled with VWs reputation for frequency and high cost of repairs, I can't fathom why anyone would even look twice at that brand.

[rnhood]

The emissions scandal coupled with VWs reputation for frequency and high cost of repairs, I can't fathom why anyone would even look twice at that brand.

Agree. In fact I don't think I would look at an Audi or Porsche now either.

[David Kirk]

I seriously doubt the fines could ever bankrupt the company. I read that that they had enough liquid cash to pay the fines out of pocket.

The will take a hit with a fine, with a recall and with reduced sales but they will still be here.

dave

[whateveronfire]

I wouldn't do it. Every VAG product I've owned has had repair costs that far outstripped the driving value. The last one I had (MkVI GTI) had (before 40K) two computers, smog problems, and two fell injectors blow.

My used E90 has had far far fewer problems. If you want German, go BMW or Merc.

It bums me out, as a Cayman was on my short list for next car. No more, thanks.

(I agree they won't go out of business, but I still wouldn't buy one of their products given the quality control issues AND the fraud).

[shovelhd]

Yes I do.

[bcroslin]

I own a TDI and I love the car but after this fiasco with the emissions scandal I will never buy another VW again and I would not recommend a VW to anyone else. My wife owned a '99 new Beetle and it was the biggest POC we've ever owned and I swore I would not buy another VW when we traded it in for a Honda. A few years later I saw a JSW and loved it and my buddy who is a VW dealer mechanic swore that everything VW produced from '08 forward was solid and I had nothing to worry about buying a JSW. Wrong.

In the words of W: "fool me once, shame on, shame on you. Fool me, you can't get fooled again.

Or something like that.

[eddief]

but no one was saying much about overall reliability.

[cnighbor1]

If you live in a state with no emission testing than I would go for it
I been following Jetta TDI for five years Price down over $3000 from a few months ago
wife has 350k manual on her 2003 SW
Use http://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/649589917/overview/ to get alert about them
however read some writes up them first

[Ken Robb]

The last one I had (MkVI GTI) had (before 40K) two computers, smog problems, and two fell injectors blow.

My used E90 has had far far fewer problems. If you want German, go BMW or Merc.

).

Not to be contentious but I'll bet that the parts that failed on your GTI were made by Bosch and Bosch supplies fuel, emissions and ignition components to the other German auto manufacturers as well as VW. Maybe you were just unlucky with your VW and have been lucky (so far) with your BMW?

[thirdgenbird]

The emissions scandal coupled with VWs reputation for frequency and high cost of repairs, I can't fathom why anyone would even look twice at that brand.

I drove a 2013 Corolla last week. It drove and felt more comparable to a 1997 dodge neon than it did our 2014 VW. The Toyota had 50k on the clock and I wouldn't have given 4K for it. It might be reliable, but I hated every second inside of it. I don't have high standards either. I daily drive a 1963 rambler.

[ftf]

Not to be contentious but I'll bet that the parts that failed on your GTI were made by Bosch and Bosch supplies fuel, emissions and ignition components to the other German auto manufacturers as well as VW. Maybe you were just unlucky with your VW and have been lucky (so far) with your BMW?

Bosch makes the parts but the car maker designs the parts and the tolerances. Not that I'd buy any German car.

[54ny77]

that was hilarious!

It might be reliable, but I hated every second inside of it. I don't have high standards either. I daily drive a 1963 rambler.

[ultraman6970]

You cant compare a corolla with a jetta for example, heck even the camry drives like crap compared with a TDI jetta... but in price there's a lot of difference too.

Toyota, you can beat them up for centuries w/o even opening the engine, reliable? yes... but arent performance cars, that is what you get with a VW, even in the same size range you cant compare them. Heard many people complaining about reliability of german cars... never had one so cant give any opinion about it. But yes, japanese cars... reliable, performance type of car like a VW? no way... too light of a car to even dream to drive like a heavier car.

Between you and me probably the rambler rocks big time compared with the corolla :)

[thirdgenbird]

A base golf appears to be cheaper than a base Corolla.

Edit:
I missed the stripper Corolla. The golf is $2800 more (msrp) when both cars have an automatic transmission. I didn't look at the options to see how compatible the two were. If the 2015s are similar to the earlier ones, I would say the golf has more standard features.

[dave thompson]

I drove a 2013 Corolla last week. It drove and felt more comparable to a 1997 dodge neon than it did our 2014 VW. The Toyota had 50k on the clock and I wouldn't have given 4K for it. It might be reliable, but I hated every second inside of it. I don't have high standards either. I daily drive a 1963 rambler.

The Corolla is an awfully pedestrian car.

[seaswood]

They all do it, performance versus reliability.
All German cars are performance weighted.
Toyota is more reliability weighted.

Mini had to have a valve job before 50,000 miles due to carbon on valves.
Anything before 2012 & even some after are still have issues.
Mini has yet to admit any fault.
But that was an expensive valve job, I should of bought a Passat!

[thirdgenbird]

The Corolla is an awfully pedestrian car.

so are most of the competitive offerings. That's why people consider VW.

You could also look at a Subaru if you don't mind head gasket replacements.

[FlashUNC]

I've gotten a couple emails from my VW dealer about a $2k rebate on all models for current owners. They don't mention the recall, but that's my bet.

[Ken Robb]

So far my 2007 MINI Cooper S has been trouble-free though I did need to replace Bosch sparkplugs sooner than expected because the compression seals failed. The turbo motor may be harder on them than expected. My mechanic said NGK was now also recommended for the S so we tried them and all is well but it's only been 5,000 miles.

Most of you know I owned/drove BMWs from 1985-2014 and I'm a 30-year member of BMWCCA so I appreciate the many good features of German cars but I got more and more annoyed by the premature failures of things that wouldn't have failed on most Japanese or American cars in recent years.

My opinion: our 2014 Mazda 3 sedan w/2.5L engine and 6 speed automatic drives very much like a German car and still feels brand new after 15,000 miles and two services that totalled about $60 if I remember correctly. Our dealer threw in the first one for nothing so maybe it should have been $100-120. It is VERY difficult to detect any undesirable front-wheel drive characteristics, the steering has nice weight/feel, brake pedal is firm, transmission programming is perfect. John Hine is a wonderful dealership. Buying and getting service are actually pleasant. Oh yeah: averaging 35+ MPG on regular gas.

[thirdgenbird]

Mazda does make a nice alternative.

[sg8357]

Ramblers eat GTIs for lunch.

[FlashUNC]

Ramblers eat GTIs for lunch.

Except for that pesky thing known as "a corner."

[thirdgenbird]

Except for that pesky thing known as "a corner."

10-4

I also think my 2.5 jsw will also out accelerate my v8 rambler. I love both cars for different reasons.

[Tin Turtle]

I think that the question is not so much whether or not you can get a deal now. I would be considering expected length of ownership and depreciation. If you want the thing for 7+ years its not a big deal, but if you want to turn it in 24 months it might be a gamble. It is hard to say how this will shake out, and what "fixes" they may try to implement to correct the fraud. If they do some things that get bad press, it will keep the resale low for quite a while.

[grawk]

Except for that pesky thing known as "a corner."
Also, can't pass a gas station

[palincss]

but no one was saying much about overall reliability.

And how on earth could they, with a brand new platform?

[Ken Robb]

I think that the question is not so much whether or not you can get a deal now. I would be considering expected length of ownership and depreciation. If you want the thing for 7+ years its not a big deal, but if you want to turn it in 24 months it might be a gamble. It is hard to say how this will shake out, and what "fixes" they may try to implement to correct the fraud. If they do some things that get bad press, it will keep the resale low for quite a while.

It may be a good time to look at leasing VW products since you will know what your highest cost will be and you might be able to make a little on the back end if resale values bounce back more than the lease company's calculations. I have had leases with and without a buy-out option at the end. I don't know if that option is still available. At any rate, if you love the idea of driving a VW but have a reasonable fear of future VW values being very low due to the scandal a lease provides you with insurance against that.

[mg2ride]

Outside of a very few small pockets (like these threads) I'm not hearing anyone talking about this and I have had to explain it to a few friends at work because that have not followed it at all. I don't think it has popped up on my Google News feed in the last week.

I'm expecting this to be a bump in the road for VW and I'm giving VERY serious consideration to sitting up a buy order for a few 100 shares if it hits the mid 80s or maybe even 90 again.

[dpk501]

Might be a good time to buy a non TDI VW?

I went to look for one. They have all been removed and not being sold.

[whateveronfire]

My 99 Passat had several major failures before 75k. (Water pump, all electric window operators, and the sunroof just opened when it felt like it and wouldn't close). My A6 was also a disaster zone.

Does Bosch do the whole computer system on the VWs? It was replaced twice.

Yes, the E90 has been great so far. Normal wear and tear only. I know that it will cost a bit to fix if something else gets wrong.

We've also owned multiple Minis with nothing but routine stuff.

I know it's just anecdotal, but after three cars from one company with problems and very few problems with toyotas, Hondas, or the BMW group, I'll give VAG a wide berth.

Not to be contentious but I'll bet that the parts that failed on your GTI were made by Bosch and Bosch supplies fuel, emissions and ignition components to the other German auto manufacturers as well as VW. Maybe you were just unlucky with your VW and have been lucky (so far) with your BMW?

[shovelhd]

I went to look for one. They have all been removed and not being sold.

He said non-TDI, i.e. Gasser. The TDI's have been pulled off the lots but the gassers, hybrids and electrics are for sale as well as used cars other than CPO TDI's.

[oldpotatoe]

Maybe, but I think you're gambling that this gets sorted out.
The fines and the lawsuits could bankrupt VW several times over, so they'll need a bailout from the German govt.
Beyond that, there's the question of how this will affect the resale value of even the non-diesel versions, because consumers aren't always very savvy about these distinctions.

They have $50 Billion in the bank as cash. It's not going to bankrupt them even one times over.

[oldpotatoe]

I wouldn't do it. Every VAG product I've owned has had repair costs that far outstripped the driving value. The last one I had (MkVI GTI) had (before 40K) two computers, smog problems, and two fell injectors blow.

My used E90 has had far far fewer problems. If you want German, go BMW or Merc.

It bums me out, as a Cayman was on my short list for next car. No more, thanks.

(I agree they won't go out of business, but I still wouldn't buy one of their products given the quality control issues AND the fraud).

Anecdotal evidence is just that. I have owned 7 VWs along with Honda, Ford(2), Mitsubishi.

I have a 15 year old New Beetle and except for headlights and a window motor, nothing has gone wrong with it. The Ford Ranger Truck..what a POS.

SO a big YMMV...I have had great luck from a '61 Beetle, SquareBacks, Vanagon, Bus', and now my Jetta..40k-nothing to report except a back door strut.

[dawgie]

I have been getting emails from VW about various promotions, but nothing so great that it would make me want to buy right now. I've got a Golf 2.5 and it has been very reliable, and Consumer Reports rates it very highly. However, all of the new gasoline VWs have a new turbo engine thats reliability remains to be seen.

The new turbo engine gets better mileage -- if VW wasn't cheating about those ratings too -- than the old 2.5. However, unless I'm mistaken, the new turbo engines run on premium gas, which is a deal-killer for me. One of the benefits of driving a smaller car is saving on fuel costs, but you won't save any money buying premium gas. This was a really stupid move on VW's part and pretty much writes them out of the equation as far as I'm concerned.

[pcxmbfj]

My experience post warranty with BMW (10yrs old, 75k mi) is like re-buying the car.

Makes me remember fondly the Toyota and Nissan's owned before.

[grawk]

I wouldn't own most modern german cars after the warranty expires. The only exception has been the VW TDIs.

[benb]

How is a golf that different than a Corolla? I haven't driven a Corolla in a long time but they're both low powered front wheel drive economy cars with too much weight in the front and inability to put their power down well. One is painted with a thicker veneer of "sportiness" but it doesn't make it anything special. Honda & Mazda do the same thing with applying a bit of tuning to try and make the car more fun but in the end they're all about the same but the VW breaks down more. My guess is if you throw them on the track the best driver would determine which one would win.

Reminds me of years ago when Nissan marketed the heck out of the Maxima as if it was somehow a sports car. Then it'd perennially get compared to the Camry and the Accord and they'd all have pretty much identical performance #s and the only difference might have been which models/packages you could get a manual transmission in.

[AngryScientist]

How is a golf that different than a Corolla? .

just go to a showroom and close the driver door of both cars.

one will sound like you dropped your empty coors lite can on the concrete, one will sound like you dropped a 4" text book.

[FlashUNC]

How is a golf that different than a Corolla?

One's a hatchback and one's a sedan, for starters.

[thirdgenbird]

just go to a showroom and close the driver door of both cars.

one will sound like you dropped your empty coors lite can on the concrete, one will sound like you dropped a 4" text book.

Not to mention everything I touched in the Corolla (2013) felt like a 90s econobox. Fit and finish is worlds apart.

Both cars are "slow" but the Corolla was much more unrefined and raspy. Neither handle like my Porsche, but the VW feels way tighter and more composed. Even my wife (a fairly inexperienced driver) commented on the steering feel and handling of the VW the first time she drove it.

It's not about track times. It's about driver feel and feedback.

[whateveronfire]

Anecdotal evidence is just that. I have owned 7 VWs along with Honda, Ford(2), Mitsubishi.

I totally agree that my experience shouldn't determine whether some buys a car. (And I referred to my experience as anecdotal later in the thread).

I guess what I'd say (beyond every car can be great and every car can be less so) is tha VW's less than stellar reputation for reliability is not a function of my 99 Passat and 10 GTI. The TDI thing hardly inspires confidence.

That said, I'd drive any of their products over a Corolla. A Lexus IS-F on the other hand...

[oldpotatoe]

just go to a showroom and close the driver door of both cars.

one will sound like you dropped your empty coors lite can on the concrete, one will sound like you dropped a 4" text book.

Which is which?

For the anecdotals here, helped daughter in law find a new car after Hyundai blew up(75,000 miles)....drove an Outback, cheap, tinny, plastic-y, noisy but otherwise under powered. Under whelmed, bought a CRV.

[goonster]

All German cars are performance weighted.
Toyota is more reliability weighted.


Good to know the marketing works, but still too nuanced.

Can you reduce this further?

[benb]

If door sounds are what matters go for it, enjoy having a basket case.

It's not like the Golf performs any better in a side crash situation than the Corolla... the sound of the Corolla is likely because it doesn't have 50lbs of sound deadening material in the door.. leading to it having better fuel economy than a Golf assuming the same type of engine. (I'd assume the Corolla of some years might have been worse in the small overlap frontal test though, Toyota screwed the pooch on that one for years.)

Brand loyalty/foreign-country loyalty in car buying is a funny thing.

[david]

I wonder about long-term pressures to reduce costs in order to make up for the losses.
That could affect product quality of future vehicles. And at the dealer level, it could affect quality of service in the very near future.
If you lease, you might be protected from serious downside. But I wonder if VW will soon be suffering from declining resale values, which tend to increase lease payments. Unless VW significantly subsidizes the leases. Will be interesting to watch.

[oldpotatoe]

I wonder about long-term pressures to reduce costs in order to make up for the losses.
That could affect product quality of future vehicles. And at the dealer level, it could affect quality of service in the very near future.
If you lease, you might be protected from serious downside. But I wonder if VW will soon be suffering from declining resale values, which tend to increase lease payments. Unless VW significantly subsidizes the leases. Will be interesting to watch.

This whole gig is 'interesting'. I know a 'fix' will happen that won't cost me anything but time. Hopefully mileage and performance won't suffer in my family car. Yup, it's quick but I drive my grand daughters around in it. I'm not looking to buy another car, ever. Hope it's the last one, been only a few weeks since the crap hit the fan.

[FlashUNC]

I wonder about long-term pressures to reduce costs in order to make up for the losses.
That could affect product quality of future vehicles. And at the dealer level, it could affect quality of service in the very near future.
If you lease, you might be protected from serious downside. But I wonder if VW will soon be suffering from declining resale values, which tend to increase lease payments. Unless VW significantly subsidizes the leases. Will be interesting to watch.

News this morning was VW is being very public about the austerity that's going to have to happen to cover for these legal costs, fines, etc etc.

I'm hoping this doesn't mean fun stuff like the Golf R goes away, but may need to get it while the getting's good.

[Ken Robb]

The new turbo engine gets better mileage -- if VW wasn't cheating about those ratings too -- than the old 2.5. However, unless I'm mistaken, the new turbo engines run on premium gas, which is a deal-killer for me. One of the benefits of driving a smaller car is saving on fuel costs, but you won't save any money buying premium gas. This was a really stupid move on VW's part and pretty much writes them out of the equation as far as I'm concerned.
The 2 liter turbo gas engine needs premium fuel but the 1.8 Liter that repalced the old 2.5L is designed for regular gas.

[yngpunk]

News this morning was VW is being very public about the austerity that's going to have to happen to cover for these legal costs, fines, etc etc.

I'm hoping this doesn't mean fun stuff like the Golf R goes away, but may need to get it while the getting's good.

I suspect that the fun stuff like the Golf R also has the highest margin for VW (have you priced a Golf R lately :eek:) so not likely to go away.

[goonster]

I suspect that the fun stuff like the Golf R also has the highest margin for VW

The volume is so low, I bet it barely breaks even. If it made real money, there would never be a model year without one.

Projects like the Golf R are justified on the basis of "halo effect" marketing.

Mind, VW needs all the halo it can get . . .

[FlashUNC]

I suspect that the fun stuff like the Golf R also has the highest margin for VW (have you priced a Golf R lately :eek:) so not likely to go away.

Except I'm already getting emails from VW about $2k on the hood of any new model, including an R, if I come by a new car as an existing VW owner. And that's layered in addition to every other rebate they offer for other models.

I'm guessing foot traffic into dealerships has dried up the last few weeks.

Does tempte to go look at the R though.

[shovelhd]

It's only $500 loyalty out here as far as I have seen.

[palincss]

The new turbo engine gets better mileage -- if VW wasn't cheating about those ratings too -- than the old 2.5. However, unless I'm mistaken, the new turbo engines run on premium gas, which is a deal-killer for me. One of the benefits of driving a smaller car is saving on fuel costs, but you won't save any money buying premium gas. This was a really stupid move on VW's part and pretty much writes them out of the equation as far as I'm concerned.

The horsepower ratings were obtained with premium, but the engines will run on regular unleaded also.

[palincss]

It's only $500 loyalty out here as far as I have seen.

The $2000 offer is nation wide. There's also a similar, but more restrictive, offer in Canada.

[david]

Except I'm already getting emails from VW about $2k on the hood of any new model, including an R, if I come by a new car as an existing VW owner. And that's layered in addition to every other rebate they offer for other models.

I'm guessing foot traffic into dealerships has dried up the last few weeks.

Does tempte to go look at the R though.

i would imagine that dealer traffic is painfully low right now and dealers will be very eager to make their monthly for October, if they can even get close. Next month, projections might be adjusted and desperation may ebb. October 30/31st could be great days to negotiate.

[Ken Robb]

The horsepower ratings were obtained with premium, but the engines will run on regular unleaded also.
But the 2 Liter high performance cars will not only lose power but probably get reduced mileage due to the retarded timing needed to quell pinging on low-octane fuel. I don't know if less mileage on cheaper fuel would save much $$ vs. better mileage on more expensive premium fuel. Personally I would only run regular in an engine designed for premium in an emergency. I enjoy having all the performance I paid for and worry a little that my knock sensors/ECM might not be quick enough to avoid all negative effects on my engine. Oh heck! Enough kidding around. I love the instant torque I get when I boot it in the ass.:banana:

[pjm]

Both cars are "slow" .

The base Golf did 0-60 in C&D in 6.8 seconds. Not exactly slow.

[thirdgenbird]

The base Golf did 0-60 in C&D in 6.8 seconds. Not exactly slow.

What year? Mine is a 14 with the 2.5 5cyl. I wouldn't call it quick but it never feels lacking.

[shovelhd]

What year? Mine is a 14 with the 2.5 5cyl. I wouldn't call it quick but it never feels lacking.

It's slow compared to the 1.8T and 2.0T.

[AngryScientist]

we've got a 2.0 (NA) Jetta MKVI. it is dead reliable, but anything but quick.

[thirdgenbird]

we've got a 2.0 (NA) Jetta MKVI. it is dead reliable, but anything but quick.

That seems to be the story with VW. The NA engines are slow and reliable, the turbo engines are quick and problematic. I went with a 14 as a result.

[paredown]

That seems to be the story with VW. The NA engines are slow and reliable, the turbo engines are quick and problematic. I went with a 14 as a result.

Part of the problems though were that VW did not provide the proper advice to either their dealer network or the customers, so that a lot of the 1.8 turbos were not getting synthetic oil (even after the service advisories), not getting their oil changed frequently enough--compounded by the fact they undersized the filters (1998-2004).

They also pushed out the service interval on the timing belts to 105,000 miles--to make the cars look more affordable.

Add to that the problem that most of their customers had never heard of the idea of letting the turbo cool before turning off the engine and they had a huge problem.

Those 1.8Ts are sweet motors, and properly cared for were as reliable as anyone else's 4T--but they went to the old 2.5 because it was cheap, reliable and wasn't as fussy about service intervals.

What I have noticed about the Toyota service system is that they are very proactive, and somehow seem more uniform in their response to problems--maybe Toyota NA has more leverage or pays them better for service advisories?

VW NA oth is badly run, or at least does not have the same control over the dealer network. The forums like VWVortex were full of threads where people were still arguing with the dealers about synthetic oil for their Turbos long after the ···· hit the fan and the service advisories were clear that synthetic oil was a must. Similar stories abound on the TDi forum about wrong-headed service departments who don't have a clue about diesels...

[thirdgenbird]

I don't disagree

I've got a reputable independant shop down the road and they strongly reccomend proper synthetic in all VWs including my 2.5. They said they have seen a lot of sludge issues in improperly maintained cars.

[AngryScientist]

any shop claiming to be a VW specialist should be using nothing other than oils that meet the strick VW specs. i believe the current is 504 for most gas engines, something else for diesel, but very specific.

when last i checked, the only oil approved for gas engines readily available in US auto parts stores were,

-mobil-1 0w-40 euro formula
-castrol syntec 0w-30 euro formula
-castrol syntec 5w-40 euro formula
-penzoil platinum 5w-30 euro

that's IT.

the list is even shorter for tdi vehicles.

there really should be no question as to what to run in these cars, and after the 1.8t fiasco, it's clear that the vw spec should be adhered to, especially for turbo motors.

[AngryScientist]

edit:

here's the list:

http://www.anciravolkswagen.com/blogs/949/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Approved-Oil-List.pdf

[oldpotatoe]

I don't disagree

I've got a reputable independant shop down the road and they strongly reccomend proper synthetic in all VWs including my 2.5. They said they have seen a lot of sludge issues in improperly maintained cars.

I have 'my guy' shop also. I trusted the dealer to change the oil, that's about it(first 3 free), they flushed the brakes at 30k per recommendation and I promptly got a low brake fluid light....adios. They gave me great deal on my TDI but ain't gonna have them work on it...altho I guess they will do the recall gig. :eek:

[shovelhd]

I know of VW dealers that use 504 approved synthetic oil in diesels that require 507 to minimize ash in the DPF. Tough to prove, though.

[eddief]

wonder about the gas Sportwagen?

http://news.yahoo.com/vw-dealers-offer-hefty-discounts-diesel-crisis-keeps-210316443--finance.html

[shovelhd]

wonder about the gas Sportwagen?

http://news.yahoo.com/vw-dealers-offer-hefty-discounts-diesel-crisis-keeps-210316443--finance.html

Not for me. The manual only comes in the "S" as a five speed, and cloth seats. Two strikes.

I test drove a 2016 6MT GTI today. It's lower and rides a bit harsher than my 2014 JSW TDI, but it's an option. I know that there are a handful of regional dealers advertising $4,700 off a $30K GTI (includes loyalty and credit discount). I could walk right in and get that. It all comes down to trade-in value. My local dealer where I did the test drive (for a $25 gift card) was talking MSRP. Ya right. I'm going back on Friday to get a trade value and see what they have to offer. If it doesn't hit all four points (new car price, trade-in price, interest rate, and monthly payment) then I will simply sit and wait until 11/20 for the CARB plan to emerge and go from there. I am in no rush whatsoever, and if the remediation plan isn't crazy, I'd be happy to keep the car.