To quill or not to quill

[Plavcan]

Making my first foray into custom bikes. Considering a lugged Waterford. Question is: threaded or threadless fork. From a visual standpoint, i prefer a quill stem. Not sure from a performance standpoint.

Any thoughts?

[Louis]

Not sure from a performance standpoint.

Doesn't seem to be holding him back much:

http://unpopular.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c365453ef0154323e6968970c-pi

[thirdgenbird]

If you get a good quill (steel in particular) you won't notice performance issue for normal riding situations.

I've got a vgc black 130 -17 salsa and an equally nice chromed 140mm -17 ITM eclypse if you are interested. Both are headed to the classifieds soon.

[Louis]

If Nitto makes it (lugged or not) you know it's good.

http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/images/products/Accessories/lugstem.jpg

[Slow Eddie]

If your bars are anywhere close to the level of your saddle, a quill stem like the Nitto Technomic will get you there without having to resort to a super tall head tube, a huge stack of spacers, or an almost-vertical stem.

[oldpotatoe]

Making my first foray into custom bikes. Considering a lugged Waterford. Question is: threaded or threadless fork. From a visual standpoint, i prefer a quill stem. Not sure from a performance standpoint.

Any thoughts?

There is no 'performance' advantage to a threadless stem/headset.

[Tickdoc]

Making my first foray into custom bikes. Considering a lugged Waterford. Question is: threaded or threadless fork. From a visual standpoint, i prefer a quill stem. Not sure from a performance standpoint.

Any thoughts?

I chose quill, not so much for performance, but for looks.

Won't go wrong either way.

[Frankwurst]

I dunno. I've had quill stems and threaded forks (even on my custom) since the 70's and never had a performance problem (with the bikes) but I've always had steel bikes and now that I think about it they have all been lugged. :beer:

[ultraman6970]

Quill

[FlashUNC]

Quill all the way.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/667/21479261820_e732a06be8_b.jpg

[guido]

It doesn't get better than a Nitto Pearl or Technomic... (although the lugged is pretty amazing...)

[rwsaunders]

If you have a favorite set of bars, make sure that they play well with a quill stem, or that the quill friendly equivalent shares a similar drop and reach. I have a Nitto Pearl on one bike mated with a set of Nitto Noodles and all is well. You can go Flash's route too and commission a custom stem.

[Ken Robb]

One of the loveliest bikes I can remember was a lugged Waterford 2200 in black paint with polished stainless lugs and alloy gruppo. White box pinstripes might have made it even better? My RS 1100 was one of my best riding bikes ever and I've had some beauties. You are going to have a wonderful bike!:beer:

[tumbler]

I vote quill as well. If you're going lugged steel, you might as well go all the way.

[ERK55]

And quill will limit you to 1" headtube, no?

[Seramount]

I consider my DA quill to be artwork.

[Slow Eddie]

And quill will limit you to 1" headtube, no?

All of the production 1-1/8" quill stems I can recall are MTB stems, which will usually mean 25.4 clamps.

[Ken Robb]

I had a wonderful tour of Waterford by Richard Schwinn when I dropped in. You might want to drive to Waterford and let them fit you for your new bike. It would be a wonderful experience. You would see how it's done and meet the guys who will build your frame/fork.

[Ken Robb]

And quill will limit you to 1" headtube, no?

so what? There is no reason to go bigger on a steel/quill set-up.

[ColnagoFan]

so what? There is no reason to go bigger on a steel/quill set-up.

What about bar clamp all 26 or are there some 31.8?

[FlashUNC]

Definitely 26. 31.8 would look odd.

[Quilts]

+1 to using a quill stem.

[AJM100]

IF Crown Jewel from 1998, quill is the way with steel IMO, especially vintage variety. :bike:

[R3awak3n]

On a lugged waterford I would do quill, I would go threadless on a bunch of other bikes though.

I would always go for some titaniun up front, ibis ti stem all the way.

http://www.pedalroom.com/p/1990-jp-weigle-road-20539_5.jpg

[smontanaro]

As someone whose newest bike dates from the mid-80s, I vote quill.

One thing I have seen mentioned about quill stems is that they can be kind of noodly. Most of my bikes have Cinelli 1A stems, though I have a couple Nittos as well. I've never had a problem, but I'm not the strongest rider in the world. Perhaps the "quill stems are weak" knock comes from threadless stem fanboys (or marketing types with a product to push) who feel the need to justify their choice (or give you a plausible excuse to buy their latest product). YMMV.

As long as you are going custom, might as well ask your framebuilder about a custom stem. :) Some examples from a Google search:

http://www.culturecycles.com/2013/01/map-bicycles-constructeur-custom-quill-stem/
http://www.bikerumor.com/2013/02/06/road-to-nahbs-2013-winter-bicycles-eric-estlund/
http://www.llewellynbikes.com/HTML/handlebar_stem.html

Yeah, the last one actually shows threadless stems, but damn! are those lovely! Betcha Llewellyn could make you a stunning quill stem.

[fourflys]

I vote quill for sure if you have that choice!

one point I'd make though... make sure you learn how to get bars into a quill stem the right way, without scratching them all up... trust me on this one... ;)

[bobswire]

As someone whose newest bike dates from the mid-80s, I vote quill.

One thing I have seen mentioned about quill stems is that they can be kind of noodly. Most of my bikes have Cinelli 1A stems, though I have a couple Nittos as well. I've never had a problem, but I'm not the strongest rider in the world. Perhaps the "quill stems are weak" knock comes from threadless stem fanboys (or marketing types with a product to push) who feel the need to justify their choice (or give you a plausible excuse to buy their latest product). YMMV.

As long as you are going custom, might as well ask your framebuilder about a custom stem. :) Some examples from a Google search:

http://www.culturecycles.com/2013/01/map-bicycles-constructeur-custom-quill-stem/
http://www.bikerumor.com/2013/02/06/road-to-nahbs-2013-winter-bicycles-eric-estlund/
http://www.llewellynbikes.com/HTML/handlebar_stem.html

Yeah, the last one actually shows threadless stems, but damn! are those lovely! Betcha Llewellyn could make you a stunning quill stem.

Llewellyn: Quote
Before you ask, I do not build new stems for old bikes or stems for new lugged bikes which are not Llewellyns. I also do not produce a quill lugged stem.
In other words peep off! :)

[thwart]

Quill? I dunno... only if you can somehow get Waterford to make a 1.25 inch to 1 inch tapered head tube.

As we know from the current trend in bike frames, tapered head tubes are the only way to go to maximize stiffness and get truly optimal performance.

... and now let's move on to the need for an appropriate carbon fork.

;) :D

[fuzzalow]

Quill. Nothing more elegant than a Cinelli 1A stem short of any of the custom boutique lugged stems from the builders. Stiffness? Naw never been a factor. All the effort yanking on bars should be redirected as effort and drive down in through the crankset. Any other effort is a waste of good hemoglobin. That picture of Andy Hampsten's posted earlier this thread is perfect illustration - does he look like he's yanking at bars to you?

http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-hjZefZVzFqM/UW_5hclSq_I/AAAAAAAAAVk/g_xmEVr1bS8/s1024-no/dsc00256.jpg

[thirdgenbird]

Nothing beats the look of a long/low quill wid giro bars and c10 levers.

[fuzzalow]

Nothing beats the look of a long/low quill wid giro bars and c10 levers.

Yeah, I think so too. But it isn't setup that way for looks as far as any of my bikes. There's a proper, correct and efficient way to ride a drop bar bike for the purpose of sport cycling. Yanking on bars is not part of that method. And this kind of setup is the result. But all secondary no matter how anyone sets up a bike because it's all good and it's........All done in service of the ride.

http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-sxX9CmAL7RI/UW_5fPLmzEI/AAAAAAAAAVU/qA2z1X_EE9c/s1024-no/dsc00251.jpg

[merckx]

Yeah, I think so too. But it isn't setup that way for looks as far as any of my bikes. There's a proper, correct and efficient way to ride a drop bar bike for the purpose of sport cycling. Yanking on bars is not part of that method. And this kind of setup is the result. But all secondary no matter how anyone sets up a bike because it's all good and it's........All done in service of the ride.

http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-sxX9CmAL7RI/UW_5fPLmzEI/AAAAAAAAAVU/qA2z1X_EE9c/s1024-no/dsc00251.jpg

Wow, wow, wow. Proper indeed. Are those Cinelli Mod. 64's?

[merckx]

Yeah, I think so too. But it isn't setup that way for looks as far as any of my bikes. There's a proper, correct and efficient way to ride a drop bar bike for the purpose of sport cycling. Yanking on bars is not part of that method. And this kind of setup is the result. But all secondary no matter how anyone sets up a bike because it's all good and it's........All done in service of the ride.

http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-sxX9CmAL7RI/UW_5fPLmzEI/AAAAAAAAAVU/qA2z1X_EE9c/s1024-no/dsc00251.jpg

Just found this again, and felt compelled to add an additional comment.

Wow!

[jds108]

Quill = prettier, heavier, and not as "stiff". I've got plenty of both and the difference in stiffness makes no difference to me.

At this point in my life I'd go with a quill just because I want my bikes to be aesthetically pleasing. Why not?

And fuzz - nice job on setting up that bike!

[MikeD]

I wouldn't go quill. Choices for handlebars and stems are very limited. I like the feel of the new handlebars as compared to the ones on the Bruce Gordon above that slope down to the brake lever. Ever had a stem corrode to the steerer tube? That problem is eliminated with a threadless stem.

[Ken Robb]

Ever had a stem corrode to the steerer tube? That problem is eliminated with a threadless stem.

No. I use a miracle preparation called "GREASE" when I install them. ;)

[Waldo]

I wouldn't go quill. Choices for handlebars and stems are very limited. I like the feel of the new handlebars as compared to the ones on the Bruce Gordon above that slope down to the brake lever. Ever had a stem corrode to the steerer tube? That problem is eliminated with a threadless stem.

Soma Highway 1 bar comes in 26.0 clamp and ticks all the modern short-and-shallow boxes. I'm going with a quill stem on my forthcoming Kvale.

[drewellison]

Quill = prettier, heavier, and not as "stiff". I've got plenty of both and the difference in stiffness makes no difference to me.
!

I like quill stems too, but I make sure I only get ones which plane well and are horizontally stiff and vertically compliant. ;)

[Waldo]

Snip: Quill = prettier, heavier, and not as "stiff". I've got plenty of both and the difference in stiffness makes no difference to me.

Anyone who has watched me try to touch my toes agrees that I also have plenty of pretty, heavy and stiff...

[Kingfisher]

finally found perfect stem for my advancing age...profile h20 on both csi's. The tilt is nice in that I don't have to raise a conventional cinelli 1a to it's max height. not too fond of the graphics, but, plenty stiff enough and easy to change handlebars.

csi's handle like a dream and i cannot tell any performance difference with quill vs new style

[classtimesailer]

If the tubes are traditional diameter, go quill. If they are oversized, go thread less. Unless you get a custom threadless that "looks correct" with traditional sized tubes. Most treadless stems are too fat for most steel bikes.

[zennmotion]

not too fond of the graphics

Acetone will fix that right up.

[Waldo]

finally found perfect stem for my advancing age...profile h20 on both csi's. The tilt is nice in that I don't have to raise a conventional cinelli 1a to it's max height. not too fond of the graphics, but, plenty stiff enough and easy to change handlebars.

csi's handle like a dream and i cannot tell any performance difference with quill vs new style

Form definitely follows function. I'd go with a Nitto Tecnomic -- relatively inexpensive with an enormous quill.

[djg21]

I seem to disagree with the consensus and believe that threadless 1 1/8" is the way to go. Threadless stems are far stiffer than quill stems.

[OtayBW]

I posted this earlier, but I just received this today and am really happy with it, so I say QUILL!!:
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j42/zelmo_2006/3TTT_IMAG0532_cropped.jpg (http://s77.photobucket.com/user/zelmo_2006/media/3TTT_IMAG0532_cropped.jpg.html)

I'm currently trying to match it up with a compatible 3TTT (or similar) bar with an acceptable (shallow) drop. This will go on a De Rosa that I recently acquired; the other bikes all have threadless.

[93legendti]

I recall Richard Sachs posting about quill stems/threaded forks in some cases, leading to HT deformation.

[baldbones]

Worth checking out Nitto 106 bars which are to me a higher quality than the Soma but both good.

I've gone back to quill, they just work and look great!

[drewellison]

I recall Richard Sachs posting about quill stems/threaded forks in some cases, leading to HT deformation.

I've seen instances of older quill stems which used a cone instead of a wedge, and if those were reefed too tight, then they could bulge out the steering tube. I don't think the wedges have that issue, do they?

And you certainly want the cone/wedge to be below any threaded part of the steering tube.

[brockd15]

I like quill stems fine and haven't noticed a difference in performance, but I'd probably go threadless because of the abundance of bar and stem options and the convenience. I hate threading a short 'n shallow bar (ala Soma Hwy 1) through a quill stem. I also hate having to unwrap one side or bars if you need to change stems for some reason.

Probably not something you do all that often, but I'd still prefer to avoid it.

[bikingshearer]

I'm mildly surprised Dave Kirk hasn't weighed in on this. Word is he some opinions on the subject. :hello:

I bet Richard Schwinn & Co. have some, too. If the OP has decided to go Waterford custom, I'd suggest asking them the original question and letting them guide him. I mean, isn't that the sort of "this one is being built just for me" info one goes to an expert custom builder for? And if you don't trust the builder on this, why are you trusting them to build your dream machine?

I do not mean this to be as snarky as it sounds, and it is certainly not a knock on Waterford. It just strikes me as odd that a conversation with the builder wouldn't be all the discussion that is needed.

[sevencyclist]

Both of these work well with respect to stiffness and performance.

Difference in favor of threadless
1. Weight
2. Ease of bar change

Difference in favor of quill
1. Ease of height adjustment, especially significant ones

Neutral depending on OP
1. Aesthetics
However, IMHO, if lugged, quill looks better; if TIG, modern threadless looks better.

[mhespenheide]

Threadless stems are far stiffer than quill stems.

Politely, I would disagree with the "far". Try riding a hollow steel quill stem like a Salsa and they're stiffer than the solid aluminum quill stems. That will make up most of the difference in stiffness unless you're Andre Griepel and want to go up to Shimano's PRO line.

[Rusty Luggs]

Why not get it spaced 120 while you're at it....
Threadless.

[93legendti]

I've seen instances of older quill stems which used a cone instead of a wedge, and if those were reefed too tight, then they could bulge out the steering tube. I don't think the wedges have that issue, do they?

And you certainly want the cone/wedge to be below any threaded part of the steering tube.

I do not know. I have had less then 10 quill bikes. I will search out Richard's post.

Here you go:

Listen to Coach e-RICHIE:
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=199240&postcount=4
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=199284&postcount=22
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=199398&postcount=67
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=199455&postcount=73

[palincss]

I seem to disagree with the consensus and believe that threadless 1 1/8" is the way to go. Threadless stems are far stiffer than quill stems.

1) Stiffness in a stem only matters if you're yanking on the bars, right? And see comments earlier in this thread re: yanking on bars. 2) How do you feel about threadless 1"? Certainly looks much nicer if the frame isn't made of OS tubing.

[palincss]

I like quill stems fine and haven't noticed a difference in performance, but I'd probably go threadless because of the abundance of bar and stem options and the convenience. I hate threading a short 'n shallow bar (ala Soma Hwy 1) through a quill stem. I also hate having to unwrap one side or bars if you need to change stems for some reason.

Probably not something you do all that often, but I'd still prefer to avoid it.

Well, with threadless setups if you want to raise the bar height there's an excellent chance you will have to change the stem to do it (unless you haven't already flipped a flippable stem, or if you've left a protuberance of head tube above the stem "just in case"), whereas with a quill stem you just loosen the stem and raise it. If the extension is right and you aren't maxed out, there's no reason to change the stem.

[MikeD]

Soma Highway 1 bar comes in 26.0 clamp and ticks all the modern short-and-shallow boxes. I'm going with a quill stem on my forthcoming Kvale.


Want to buy mine? The bends on this bar are disappointing to me, to say the least. I much prefer my Easton EA70 bar. I think I'm going to have to get one of those adapters on my touring bike to mount a threadless stem so I can use an EA70, or should have put out the extra money for a Nitto.

[MikeD]

No. I use a miracle preparation called "GREASE" when I install them. ;)


Works well for a while until sweat gets in there. You have to remove the stem and clean and regrease periodically. I'd rather avoid the maintenance. See http://yarchive.net/bike/frozen_stem_remove.html

[Ken Robb]

[QUOTE=MikeD;1872154]Works well for a while until sweat gets in there. You have to remove the stem and clean and regrease periodically. I'd rather avoid the maintenance. See http://yarchive.net/bike/frozen_stem_remove.html[/QUOTE

I do regrease my stems and seat posts once a year. It takes me about 2-3 minutes with one Allen wrench. It has been working well for me for 60 years. I also have some bikes with threadless stems and they are fine too but I certainly didn't buy them to prevent frozen stems. :D

[pdmtong]

There is an in-between solution.

The custom threadless "quill" (have Winter Cycles make it) as seen on my lugged steel (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=1864915&postcount=96)

Sacha's stem pre-loads with a regular expansion plug onto a 1" steerer tube, and has a single bolt face plate that the bars wind through (like a regular quill). note he custom fabricated a conical spacer to make the transition more visually graceful.

There is zero advantage of this set up to a regular quill or a regular threadless other than adding a bit more of the hand made element to a custom frame. a waterford is certainly a bike to consider this kind of treatment.

There is one disadvantage though, and that is the current position is essentially fixed in terms of height. any change, up or down, would require a new spacer to be fabricated as I have no idea where I would find a metal silver spacer, even if non-conical, that would tie the headset into the stem like this does.

[djg21]

Politely, I would disagree with the "far". Try riding a hollow steel quill stem like a Salsa and they're stiffer than the solid aluminum quill stems. That will make up most of the difference in stiffness unless you're Andre Griepel and want to go up to Shimano's PRO line.

I had Salsa stems on my bikes years ago before threadless 1 1/8" stems became the norm. They are hard to find now. I've seen them on EBay recently for $150. They were far stiffer than the Cinelli quill stems, but not as stiff as the newer threadless stems that can be used with wider diameter bars.

The OP is having a custom frame built. If I were having a new frame built, I would not opt for older technology, especially when it would limit the availability of bars that I could use. Just my opinion.

[thirdgenbird]

I had Salsa stems on my bikes years ago before threadless 1 1/8" stems became the norm. They are hard to find now. I've seen them on EBay recently for $150.

I can't part with a one owner low milage one for under $40

[93legendti]

Salsa quill stems for ~$150 on eBay? I think I have 3 or 4. Hot damn!

[thirdgenbird]

Salsa quill stems for ~$150 on eBay? I think I have 3 or 4. Hot damn!

I'm seeing sold listings around $20-60 depending on size and condition. Mine is perfect and in package but won't sell.

[djg21]

1) Stiffness in a stem only matters if you're yanking on the bars, right? And see comments earlier in this thread re: yanking on bars. 2) How do you feel about threadless 1"? Certainly looks much nicer if the frame isn't made of OS tubing.

I don't agree with this. Granted, I used to use a 130-140mm quill stem on my old race bikes, but I remember feeling my bars flexing whenever I went hard or sprinted. The Salsa stem made a huge difference.

I still have one of my old frames that was built for me by Tony Mezzatesta in 1995. It has taken up full-time residency on my Computrainer. A few years back I replaced the fork with an inexpensive Ritchey Carbon fork with a 1" Al steerer. I use a Thompson stem and spacer. If you go this route, don't get a carbon steerer (are they even made anymore?).

[93legendti]

I'm seeing sold listings around $20-60 depending on size and condition. Mine is perfect and in package but won't sell.

I'd be happy at $40-50 each