high spoke count, light wheels

[AngryScientist]

Brian cdn has opened my eyes that it is entirely possible to build a wheelset with 32 spokes under 1500g with relatively pedestrian parts. i assumed that to get a high spoke count wheel in that weight category you would need pretty boutique-ee parts, but record hubs and stans rims - wowsers.

who's riding a wheelset like this? thoughts?

[oldpotatoe]

Brian cdn has opened my eyes that it is entirely possible to build a wheelset with 32 spokes under 1500g with relatively pedestrian parts. i assumed that to get a high spoke count wheel in that weight category you would need pretty boutique-ee parts, but record hubs and stans rims - wowsers.

who's riding a wheelset like this? thoughts?

Actually it's how you make light wheels. Light hub, light rim, enough spokes to support that light rim. This idea that you subtract 8 spokes(about 60 grams-24h vs 32h) but then add 150 grams to rim to make it reliable. Backwards but 'low spoke count wheels' are marketing buzzwords of the day.

Used to 'race' with GEL280/GL330 , but 36h and 15/16 spokes, very light, very reliable but still went OTB.

[thirdgenbird]

I've got 28h t11 hubs to open pro rims. Traditionally they are not high spoke count but they basically are today. Weight is around 1500g which is my break point for light.

[Anarchist]

I have not seen the reference wheel set that started this thread but the thing that leaps out at me is this .... Stan's rims.

I would take virtually any penalty in excess weight to avoid having to deal with those.

[AngryScientist]

I have not seen the reference wheel set that started this thread but the thing that leaps out at me is this .... Stan's rims.

I would take virtually any penalty in excess weight to avoid having to deal with those.

why? i am completely unfamiliar with them. quality issue?

[pff]

why? i am completely unfamiliar with them. quality issue?

Stan's alpha rims were stupid light but they'd collapse in a stiff breeze.

Edit: I used the past tense because I thought they quit making them but I suppose not.

Anyway, to address the original question, the best way to do this imo is not to shave rim weight or lower spoke count but get lighter hubs. The difference between dt240 and tune or even bhs if youre on a budget is pretty substantial.

[peanutgallery]

passable QC for a disc application on a mtb but completely unusable for a road or rim brake app. They must be velocity or weinman rejects and you just can't get them true enough. I've regretted every one that I've built. Crazy at the seam and the aluminum is too rigid to true effectively or consistently if there isn't going to be a huge 29er tire installed. Buy just about anything else for a road rim and you;ll be doing well by comparison

why? i am completely unfamiliar with them. quality issue?

[kramnnim]

I think my American Classic Sprint 350s are 32h, and just over 1400g.

No issues with my Stans Alpha 340s, bouncing around on gravel with 28mm tires.

[pff]

No issues with my Stans Alpha 340s, bouncing around on gravel with 28mm tires.

How much do you weigh?

Bouncing around on gravel presumably means you're traveling slower than you would on the road (particularly descending) and having high volume tires also provides more cushion. If you're on a typical road setup and you hit a pothole at 40mph that's a lot more stress on the wheels than any off road application.

[FlashUNC]

I've seen more Stans rims with problems than just about every other rim maker combined.

I went the light but high spoke count route once with a set of Velocity Escapes. Rim cracked at the spoke hole fairly quickly. Swore me off that idea. I'd rather deal with the extra hundred grams for something more reliable, or spend the money and go carbon if I'm in a weigh weenie mode.

[ceolwulf]

Not precisely the same but my latest set with Archetypes laced to BHS hubs with Sapim Race and Sapim Strong on drive side 24/28 came in around 1550 g. So those could easily have been lighter.

[cinema]

you could try looking for some reviews on kinlin xr200 rims. i haven't tried them but they are silly light. stans rims are soft, as are lighter velocity rims.

It looks like 28/32 kinlins with 240s hubs, cx rays, brass nipples will clock in at a claimed 1429g.

[ergott]

Kinlin XR19W is a better option for a lightweight rim.

There have been people that have had tires blown off the Stan's Alpha and since I sold them to customers in other states, I can't verify user error. It was easier for me to just get the wheels back from them and switch to the Kinlins.

[Anarchist]

I recently built a set for my wife.

BHS hubs, DT Swiss 440 rims and DT spokes.

24/28 (my wife weighs about 110 lbs) - under 1500 gms.


Pretty standard components, easy to repair, easy to service the hubs and reliable rims.

[Mark McM]

Brian cdn has opened my eyes that it is entirely possible to build a wheelset with 32 spokes under 1500g with relatively pedestrian parts. i assumed that to get a high spoke count wheel in that weight category you would need pretty boutique-ee parts, but record hubs and stans rims - wowsers.

who's riding a wheelset like this? thoughts?

What makes you think spokes are heavy? For most wheels, strength and stiffness are increased more per gram of spoke than per gram of rim or hub. I suspect that people think that low spoke count wheels must be lighter because it "looks" like there is less wheel (more air between the spokes). In actuality, the spokes make up only about 1/4 to 1/3 of the total weight of the wheel. The rim may be half the weight of a wheel, so reducing the weight of the rim is usually the most effective way to cut wheel weight, even if you have a to add a few extra spokes to gain back stiffness/durability.

I've actually got a pair of wheels that weigh 1100 grams that use 36 spokes in the rear and 32 spokes in the front. But they use very light rims (and hubs).

[Tony]

There have been people that have had tires blown off the Stan's Alpha and since I sold them to customers in other states, I can't verify user error. It was easier for me to just get the wheels back from them and switch to the Kinlins.

I'm 165 lbs, no issues with Stans 340s outside of blowing some tires off while inflating.
If a tire stays on after inflating it has been my experience it will stay on in all conditions of riding.

[Bob Ross]

who's riding a wheelset like this? thoughts?

I have (had? They've since been rebuilt) 28-spoke DT Swiss Mon Chasseral on one bike, they're a sub-1500g alloy clincher. Not sure I would want to risk running anything under 1400g, as I tend to be hard on wheels and these got pretty beat up -- which is why they had to be rebuilt after 3 or 4 years. But I'll probably spec something similar for my next bike.

[benb]

I've actually got a pair of wheels that weigh 1100 grams that use 36 spokes in the rear and 32 spokes in the front. But they use very light rims (and hubs).

Can you describe these more or share some pictures? Sounds like a pretty cool wheelset.

[Tony]

I've actually got a pair of wheels that weigh 1100 grams that use 36 spokes in the rear and 32 spokes in the front. But they use very light rims (and hubs).

What wheelset are you referring to?
Thanks

[ergott]

I'm 165 lbs, no issues with Stans 340s outside of blowing some tires off while inflating.
If a tire stays on after inflating it has been my experience it will stay on in all conditions of riding.

You have to understand from my point of view I cannot sell a product with that potential. As my customer described it to me it happened some time after installation. I just can't quibble over nuance when safety is a concern.

[dgauthier]

Yup, lotsa spokes supporting light rims is the ticket to a light wheel set.

If I'm not mistaken, the motivation to reduce the spoke count (while adding mass to the rim to compensate) is to make the wheel more aerodynamic. Anecdotally, when I switched to 32 spoke handbuilts from low spoke count readymades I did notice the handbuilts caught more air when descending. Didn't matter though, as the increased lateral stiffness of the handbuilts made them perform better in every other circumstance.

[Mark McM]

Can you describe these more or share some pictures? Sounds like a pretty cool wheelset.

I haven't got any pictures at the moment, but I should mention that they use Hi-E rims, which are ridiculously light tubular rims, handmade in Tennessee. The front rim is only 210 grams, and the rear is 280 grams. More about Hi-E can be found at Classic Rendezvous:

http://www.classicrendezvous.com/USA/Hi_E.htm

The hubs are Tune Mig70 front and Mag190 rear (70 g and 190 g, respectively).

And, of course, the spokes are all DT Revolution with alloy nipples (about 4 grams per spoke+nipple).

As you might guess, I only use these wheels for uphill TTs.

[oldpotatoe]

I have not seen the reference wheel set that started this thread but the thing that leaps out at me is this .... Stan's rims.

I would take virtually any penalty in excess weight to avoid having to deal with those.

Agree, built some, not a fan.

[veloduffer]

I've got a set of Stan's 340 with Tune hubs (24/28h) that came in at 1320 grams. I haven't had any issues other than truing once. I'm 175 lbs but easy on equipment. Also, they were built by Ergott.

I have used stock Stan's 340 on my cross bikes as well without a problem using 700x32 tires in races. In summary, I have 3 sets of wheels with Stan's and have had no issues.

[Joxster]

Up until last year I was running a 28 spoke GEL280 radial on record front with a GEL330 32 spoke x 3 on record and I'm a bit chunky (110kgs) without any problems. I also like the Ambrosio Excellite rims

[kramnnim]

How much do you weigh?

Bouncing around on gravel presumably means you're traveling slower than you would on the road (particularly descending) and having high volume tires also provides more cushion. If you're on a typical road setup and you hit a pothole at 40mph that's a lot more stress on the wheels than any off road application.

145. Not a lot of 40mph descents with potholes around here, thankfully.

[NickR]

I had the Stans 340 1st gen, eventually a crack develop by the spoke hole. The rear was the first to go, then the front.

[cmg]

had a local shop build a set on Stans 340 rims with parts from BHS, 28 front, 32 rear. after about 200-400 miles the eyelets on the rear cracked. i'm around 200lbs so that's what i blame them on. Rebuilt the rear using a KINLIN 200xr and no problems since. yea, i did the sapim light spokes on the front and thicker on the drive side rear. got the idea from the AC 350 sprinter wheelsets i have. it's the rotating weight at the rim that matters. hub weight has little effect on rotating torque. If i were to get another set built i'd use the 310 gram rims from American Classic. there a little wider. while your overall speed and average speed may improve a little the real difference will be in the spin up, when the front of group takes off, you'll be able to catch. or when you go uphill. Use light tires, tubes and a light rim tape as well. for example use a Maxxis Xenith on the rear and a conti supersonic for the front and vederstein latex tubes. the best would be a mix of lightness an depth. do it it's fun.

[phcollard]

Kinlin XR19W is a better option for a lightweight rim.


That's what I would go for too. Oh wait that's what I had!

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=174241

Nick those were the lightest wheels that I had. They were also the most reliable. Although the streets are crap here I never had to touch them up in 2000km.

[dustyrider]

My solution to lightweight is to never weigh anything! Currently my dt240 32 hole laced to dt440 with dt db spokes feel amazing. What do they weigh? They're lighter than the other wheels I have.

[mod6]

I had the Stans 340 1st gen, eventually a crack develop by the spoke hole. The rear was the first to go, then the front.

Same here both my gen 1 cracked at the spoke holes. The replacements brake tracks wore out in a couple of thousand miles. Live in a pretty flat area. Had better luck with their MTB rims

[weisan]

Cheap, fast, durable.

Pick two.

[pff]

Cheap, fast, durable.

Pick two.

Honestly you're lucky to get one out of those. (Mavic is zero of them ;) Expensive wheels can be lightweight but not durable, so that's just one of three.

If we're not talking microseconds or one-upping the joneses, a few hundred grams is not going to make a lick of difference. Just get high spoke count, wide rims, big tires, and the ride will be sublime. You can comfort yourself with the fact that bigger tires have lower rolling resistance, hence are faster.

[Anarchist]

I got curious as a result of this thread so I went threw my GL330 wheel set on the scale.

Mavic GL330. 28 h front, 32 hole rear.

Front is DT Swiss Revolution 2x on brass nipples.

Rear is DT Swiss Competition 3x on brass nipples.

1345 gms.

All standard stuff. All easy to service.

[AngryScientist]

I got curious as a result of this thread so I went threw my GL330 wheel set on the scale.

Mavic GL330. 28 h front, 32 hole rear.

Front is DT Swiss Revolution 2x on brass nipples.

Rear is DT Swiss Competition 3x on brass nipples.

1345 gms.

All standard stuff. All easy to service.

Hubs?

[Anarchist]

Hubs?

I forgot that part didn't I?

This wheel set uses BHS hubs, I wanted to get them built up and had not yet got around to cutting up a bunch of the other wheel sets I have around here.

Now the wheels are built and NOW I have a drawer full of hubs that I have taken out of other stuff. The shiny Campy high flange hubs would have looked good. Maybe next set.

The BHS hubs are good though. Roll nice and easy to service.

You could make theses a lot lighter though. I'm 6 feet and 190 pounds. If I was a smaller lighter guy, these wheels would be a Lot lighter.