Why I Gave Up on "Coaching" Myself

[MattTuck]

For a long time, I was "coaching" myself. I studied biology under-grad, I was able to read the latest scientific articles about interval training, I bought Joe Friel's book and thought I was smart enough to figure it out. I felt like I was qualified to do my own training.

I can't say why I was so resistant to seeking professional help. Maybe it was a certain yankee individualism, or desire for self reliance... but I clung to 4x8 min intervals as if they were the holy grail of training. I even started threads and tried to get some of you to drink the kool-aid.

Well, I have to publicly say that I was wrong.

A while back, I had corresponded with Joachim about some training questions and considered hiring him to help me develop a plan through last winter. I ended up sticking to my 4x8's and didn't see much progress by the spring. I was a bit discouraged with my narrow interpretation of polarized training. Around May, he sent me a message letting me know that his coaching services had gone official as 'Performance Scientific' with a snazzy website (http://www.performancesci.com/) and everything. I started working with Joachim as my coach about 2.5 months ago. His scientific approach and deep background in physiology really gave me confidence in his ability and when I asked nerdy biology related questions about training he gave me detailed biological answers that helped me understand what was happening. His understanding of the human body is incredible.

I recently completed a ride with two folks on the forum that are both much stronger and lighter riders than me. I won't say that I crushed them thanks to Joachim's coaching, as that isn't the truth. But through his training, he gave me the fitness to hang with those guys on most of the route, save for the really steep stuff. I'm 100% certain that without his training, this 200 pound out of shape guy would have been destroyed 2 hours into the ride, and would have thrown in the towel. Instead, I put up something like 12 PRs out of 16 segments along the route*... and still felt pretty good by the finish.

I've made huge strides in the short time that Joachim has been coaching me, especially in my ability to go harder for longer. And I'm sure that as I continue to shed the weight (I've lost 10 pounds based on his training and diet advice), those gains will be amplified and my climbing ability will really improve.

He's been a great adviser and coach, and has worked around a sometimes challenging riding schedule. Also, having a coach has been great for both accountability and dealing with small obstacles that invariably arise during training.

I'd say he is too kind (read: tolerant of BS) when subjects of training come up on this board. For many moons he let me believe in my 4x8 min intervals. Only after he started coaching me did he fully explain how and why that training plan was inadequate. I'm sharing this with you all in case you are following the path I followed... there is still time to correct it. The human body is a complex system and I should have realized that a simple interval routine was 'too good to be true.' Much like a fad diet, I fell into the trap of believing in an easy path to fitness.

I wanted to be a stronger rider so I could 1) get out for longer rides and feel stronger on the bike so I could enjoy that time more and 2) get out and ride with folks without having to pick short routes with little climbing because I was heavier than Jan Ullrich in April. He has helped me achieve both of those goals.

In any event, I wanted to share this little story with you because I now feel like I was selling snake oil in the past and want to set the record straight. 4x8s may have their place, but as part of a bigger training program. If you are thinking about working with a coach, I totally recommend Joachim. He's been great to work with.


* I am not a strava junkie, it is just an easy way to gauge performance.

[Mikej]

4x8's are soo 2000's - 2x20's are in.

[Joachim]

Thanks Matt! I will say that Matt worked extremely hard and stuck to the program. With regards to 4x8 or 2x20 or 1x40's or whatever, the point is that there is not a "one size fit all" for intervals. Everything has it's place, human physiology is complicated and needs more than just one type of interval. Despite all of this, you still need to put in the work. Nothing substitutes for riding, just like "time crunched" programs will never substitute for putting in the hours.

[MattTuck]

4x8's are soo 2000's - 2x20's are in.

I asked Joachim if he was ever going to prescribe tabata intervals... another great training fad. His answer was something like this. :no:

[rugbysecondrow]

Working with a coach seems to be a great idea if you have specific goals you are trying to achieve.

[Louis]

Someone has to push the pace:

http://www.corbisimages.com/images/Corbis-JS9600.jpg?size=67&uid=8b86cba7-b494-4a7b-b754-2f9842e7ee12

[laupsi]

Congrats Matt! Glad to hear I'm not the only one benefitting from all that knowledge and wisdom. To add, doubt if there are many coaches out there w/the temperament and resolve that Joachim possesses. Truly one of the best when it comes to a personalized and dedicated program!

Cheers and Ride On!!!

[Uncle Jam's Army]

Gotta pile on and say Joachim is the man. I highly recommend Joachim and his coaching methods.

[Joxster]

Minute on, minute off for reps of 60, then 20mins steady and repeat for another 4 sets. Thats the way forward ;)

[SlackMan]

I asked Joachim if he was ever going to prescribe tabata intervals... another great training fad. His answer was something like this. :no:

So, no puking then? Can't be a serious workout. ;)

[kramnnim]

How much do people normally pay for coaching? And would I get more enjoyment out of buying shiny new bike parts instead?

[laupsi]

not sure if your post was in jest, but your sentiment, whether for humor or not, rings true for many. truth is, performance will eventually peak and remain steady or fall off, (the latter is true for most due to over training). no amount of newer or better will propel you further.

money spent on a coach is far and away the best investment I made to date outside of my PM and the bike I train on. it has taken a long time to realize, but sooner or later all come to the same conclusion. it's just a matter of time!

[Joxster]

How much do people normally pay for coaching? And would I get more enjoyment out of buying shiny new bike parts instead?

What do you want to get out of it? I view coaching is a must for racing, riding sportives has no place for a coach. Just ride more with club riders to learn.

[MattTuck]

How much do people normally pay for coaching? And would I get more enjoyment out of buying shiny new bike parts instead?

Mark, I think it depends on the coach and what you want exactly. I know you're already a very strong rider, so I'm sure a coach would approach you differently than me. I have to imagine you'd be a much better candidate for achieving your potential.

As for whether you'd get more enjoyment out of new bike parts instead, I can't say. Probably a lot of psychology wrapped up in the answer to that question. I'd suggest talking to Joachim if you're really curious.

[eippo1]

Working with a coach seems to be a great idea if you have specific goals you are trying to achieve.

Or if you have trouble trying to figure out what those goals could or should be...

[laupsi]

money spent on a coach is far and away the best investment I made to date outside of my PM and the bike I train on. it has taken a long time to realize, but sooner or later all come to the same conclusion. it's just a matter of time!

obviously if you're riding for the pure pleasure of simply being out there and feeling the breeze you wouldn't want or need a coach. I get that. my comment was directed at those who are competitive and expect improvement over time.

[Joachim]

What do you want to get out of it? I view coaching is a must for racing, riding sportives has no place for a coach. Just ride more with club riders to learn.

I coach riders who pin on a number every weekend, some weekends, once per year. I also coach riders who felt that the are not progressing anymore, including "club" riders and riders doing sportives/gran fondo's or just weekend club riders who would like to ride further and/or faster. Or someone coming back from injury. Given that it's personalized coaching, each program is tailored to the rider and that does not mean everything is based on looking at the power output on a Garmin. We talk about custom frames all day long on here. Well, coaching is similar in terms of design and application. There are unlimited variations and hopefully it gives each rider what they need out of it.

[beeatnik]

Joachim, would you be able to elaborate on MattTuck's lack of (or limited) improvement. I didn't read his previous thread but it sounds like the main issues were load and weight (diet). A riding buddy seems to have similar issues. He rides at least 600K monthly, races once or twice a month ("pack fodder") is carrying an extra 20 pounds at 5'10" 190. I've ridden with him for 4 years and every year he loses power. Where 4 years ago he could average 9-10mph on a 4% grade climb now he's at 7. On high intensity, A-group rides (50K at 40kph), he would normally lose contact on the last 1/3 of the ride, now he gets dropped at the first hard acceleration.

[Joachim]

Joachim, would you be able to elaborate on MattTuck's lack of (or limited) improvement. I didn't read his previous thread but it sounds like the main issues were load and weight (diet). A riding buddy seems to have similar issues. He rides at least 600K monthly, races once or twice a month ("pack fodder") is carrying an extra 20 pounds at 5'10" 190. I've ridden with him for 4 years and every year he loses power. Where 4 years ago he could average 9-10mph on a 4% grade climb now he's at 7. On high intensity, A-group rides (50K at 40kph), he would normally lose contact on the last 1/3 of the ride, now he gets dropped at the first hard acceleration.

Before I start let me make sure I understand correctly. When you say 'lack of improvement' or 'limited improvement' are we talking pre coaching here, when he was still doing 4x8's, 3 months ago?

[beeatnik]

Yes, pre-coaching.

[Uncle Jam's Army]

Because he spent too much time posting on this forum instead of riding his bike.:p

[MattTuck]

Because he spent too much time posting on this forum instead of riding his bike.:p

damn, that's harsh. :) :help:

[beeatnik]

Well...that splains it.

[Joachim]

Weight is only one part of the picture. Sure, it's important for climbing faster but to be a better rider, we needed to address multiple variables. This would be the case for 99.9% of the riders out there who would like to improve. I think part of the stagnation in improvement comes from sticking with one type of (high intensity) interval week after week after week. The other part was definitely a substandard foundation. Can't put the roof on a house if the foundation is not solid! So once we addressed the foundation with on the bike strength training, endurance and eventually moved to more high intensity workouts, together with the weight loss, he made an order of magnitude improvements. Everything affects everything else so instead of saying it's only one or two things, we run the risk of missing other important pieces of the puzzle.
With regards to your friend, has he been following the same approach year after year, besides the extra weight? While the w/kg is important and could be one of the factors why he gets dropped earlier (on a climb I assume), another issue could be that his power output is not improving (irrespective of weight, you notice his w/kg but how is his power on the flats?). How is his recovery/rest/sleep? How much time does he take off in the winter? Lots of variables....tell him to email me :)

[kramnnim]

I'm still wondering how much the coaching costs. Or is it a "if you have to ask..." kind of thing?

[beeatnik]

With regards to your friend, has he been following the same approach year after year, besides the extra weight? While the w/kg is important and could be one of the factors why he gets dropped earlier (on a climb I assume), another issue could be that his power output is not improving (irrespective of weight, you notice his w/kg but how is his power on the flats?). How is his recovery/rest/sleep? How much time does he take off in the winter? Lots of variables....tell him to email me :)

Ya, essentially. Most of his high intensity training was at the track. Then a couple of Zone 1/2 rides on the bike path w/ a fast group ride on Sat.

[Joachim]

I'm still wondering how much the coaching costs. Or is it a "if you have to ask..." kind of thing?

If you are seriously interested, you can contact me through my website and we can take it from there. After all, this is MattTuck's thread :).First ask yourself if you think you can benefit from coaching? Was that humor when you mentioned earlier if shiny bike parts will make you happier than coaching? Coaching (not me specifically) can range from $25 to $2000+ per month. There is not one fixed price. Some coaching programs are cookie cutter, some are individualized, some have restrictions (limited) in terms of contact, some are completely unrestricted.

[Joachim]

Ya, essentially. Most of his high intensity training was at the track. Then a couple of Zone 1/2 rides on the bike path w/ a fast group ride on Sat.

In that case I'm sure there are tons of possibilities to help him improve.

[weisan]

Matt pal, congrats on your success so far with Joachim pal's help.

When I read Joachim's responses, I get the same feeling with reading posts from pals like David Kirk, Ergott, Old Potatoe...I am sure that others that I didn't mention....not only do they know their stuff inside out, generous with their time and spot on with their advice every time, they are also genuinely concerned for the welfare of those they are trying to help. They are the best of the best that this community has to offer. Thank you for being here.

[Joachim]

Matt pal, congrats on your success so far with Joachim pal's help.

When I read Joachim's responses, I get the same feeling with reading posts from pals like David Kirk, Ergott, Old Potatoe...I am sure that others that I didn't mention....not only do they know their stuff inside out, generous with their time and spot on with their advice every time, they are also genuinely concerned for the welfare of those they are trying to help. They are the best of the best that this community has to offer. Thank you for being here.

That's a compliment of the highest order :). Thank you very much!

[Tim Porter]

I'm lucky to have spent some time riding with laupsi in Mallorca and Girona and have enjoyed every minute. I remember a couple of springs ago when he said he had started working with Joachim and that it was the best thing he had done in many moons. Laupsi is a great rider and fantastic guy and it's very cool to hear that Joachim is having such a great effect on riders like Matt. Even at almost 63, I'm tempted to see what I can do what Joachim's help! Tim

[Joachim]

I'm lucky to have spent some time riding with laupsi in Mallorca and Girona and have enjoyed every minute. I remember a couple of springs ago when he said he had started working with Joachim and that it was the best thing he had done in many moons. Laupsi is a great rider and fantastic guy and it's very cool to hear that Joachim is having such a great effect on riders like Matt. Even at almost 63, I'm tempted to see what I can do what Joachim's help! Tim

You are always welcome! Age is just a number...

[Peter P.]

He rides at least 600K monthly, races once or twice a month ("pack fodder") is carrying an extra 20 pounds at 5'10" 190. I've ridden with him for 4 years and every year he loses power. Where 4 years ago he could average 9-10mph on a 4% grade climb now he's at 7. On high intensity, A-group rides (50K at 40kph), he would normally lose contact on the last 1/3 of the ride, now he gets dropped at the first hard acceleration.

The extra weight is EVERYTHING when it comes to climbing. Losing weight is free speed on hills. On the flats, not so much, but lost weight is the biggest improvement your friend can make. As for getting dropped at the first hard acceleration, assuming that 600k/month is real then either he's not doing any intensity replicating those hard accelerations-assuming those accelerations are on the flats-or it's the weight-assuming the accelerations are on the hills.

[jwess1234]

Great thread--thanks all!

Slight thread drift, and I know this varies by person, but approximately how much time (rides/week or in hours) do you need to to be able to commit to a coaching program to make it successful/worth the time and money?

I've bought the Friel book and power meter and am definitely using the tools as intended...

[Joachim]

Great thread--thanks all!

Slight thread drift, and I know this varies by person, but approximately how much time (rides/week or in hours) do you need to to be able to commit to a coaching program to make it successful/worth the time and money?

I've bought the Friel book and power meter and am definitely using the tools as intended...

Successful can mean a lot of different things to different people. I have riders that are competitive with 7-8hrs per week. I also have riders that do not race and prepare for sportives/gran fondos with less. I also have riders preparing for gran fondos that do 14hrs per week. It all depends on your goals. Not every goal relies on 7hrs per week or more than 18hrs per week (one of my riders trying to get a pro contract).

[oldpotatoe]

Matt pal, congrats on your success so far with Joachim pal's help.

When I read Joachim's responses, I get the same feeling with reading posts from pals like David Kirk, Ergott, Old Potatoe...I am sure that others that I didn't mention....not only do they know their stuff inside out, generous with their time and spot on with their advice every time, they are also genuinely concerned for the welfare of those they are trying to help. They are the best of the best that this community has to offer. Thank you for being here.

Grazie sir for the kind words.

[ptourkin]

I've been coached remotely from LA (beeatnik probably knows my coach)for the last two years, mostly aiming for the Silver State 508 and made big improvements.

Periodization works but one of the primary advantages I found with being coached by someone else was a safeguard against overtraining, which I think many self-coached people engage in. I suffered from a bunch of maladies for about a year, made no gains despite my volume, visited endocrinologists and other specialists and never came up with anything. Eventually I realized it was overtraining.

This article was informative. It seems to be an issue with elite ultra-runners, many of whom coach themselves:

http://www.outsideonline.com/1986361/running-empty

[MattTuck]

Since I kicked off this post with some touchy feely type of statements, I wanted to just put some actual numbers out there that are quantifiable in case folks were curious about the magnitude of improvement.

Went out Saturday to test my form. Here are some results.

Goal hill, 2.3 miles @ 4% average (513 ft of gain): My previous PR was from 9/10/2008, and was done in 12:54. This was my fastest ever time for this climb, and was done when I was weighing ~185. Saturday, was done in 11:48. Kicker was I am at 197 today. Other PR I have recorded is from 9/29/2014 @ 13:28. That was done at close to my current weight, end of last season, feeling in good shape. Probably one or two pounds over where I am today. This result alone has made all my work Joachim worth it. Back in 2008, before botched surgeries, and divorce, and getting fat, that was the fittest (and lightest) I ever felt on a bike, and it feels great to put up a performance that shows I'm back to that point... actually surpassed my fitness from that year, crushed it. I almost cried when I hit the lap timer at the top of the climb... it was a long time coming.

I can only imagine how much stronger I'll be when I get back to that weight.

A few other tests from Saturday's ride.
Short Power Climb, 0.3 miles @ 6% average: Previous PR 1:37. Saturday was at 1:20. Moved up 175 places on strava, not that strava places mean much.

Steady climb, 1.2 miles @ 8% average: Previous PR 11:13. Saturday, 10:10.


Anyway, those are some hard numbers. I'm super excited about the rest of this season and hoping to come into next season stronger (and lighter).

[guido]

Great work! Keep it up!

[GParkes]

I decided to get back in to competition this year after 20 years of time off. I actually decided to dive in to tri's (no hating guys) and used a coach primarily for swim/run workouts. However, she wrote all my bike workouts so I didn't toast my legs for run days. With the focused, specifically designed bike work outs, I made huge gains in FTP and endurance with nominal saddle time. If you want improvement without guessing, get a coach. They design, and all you have to do is the work - which isn't work if you enjoy riding.