OT: VW cheating emissions on TDI vehicles

[bcroslin]

It appears that the official vehicle of Paceliners everywhere is about to see a big fat recall. Allegedly, '09-15 TDI's have software that detects emissions testing and appears to make the cars seem to be cleaner than they actually run in the real world.

Autonews story here (http://www.autonews.com/article/20150918/OEM/150919800/vw-faces-epa-california-probes-for-clean-air-violations-over-diesel)

(We own a 2010 TDI and I don't care if the EPA says there's demons in my engine they can't have my Sportwagen)

[Cat3roadracer]

Saw that in the NYT today. What will the fix be? How will it affect our mileage?

[Ken Robb]

Fines are dandy--especially combined with jail time for people who ordered and/or signed off on this fraud.

I wonder how owners can be forced to allow their cars to modified to be legal. It seems very likely that legal will mean decreased performance,economy or both.

[bcroslin]

Fines are dandy--especially combined with jail time for people who ordered and/or signed off on this fraud.

I wonder how owners can be forced to allow their cars to modified to be legal. It seems very likely that legal will mean decreased performance,economy or both.

I'll give it 90 days before a class-action lawsuit notice lands in our mailboxes

[zap]

Saw that in the NYT today. What will the fix be? How will it affect our mileage?

Allow the union to hold another vote and let them win.

[AngryScientist]

Incredible.

This could be a big deal for VW. What were they thinking.

[kgreene10]

Argh! I just bought my first new car ever - a 2015 Golf Sportwagen TDI. I bought it specifically for the combination of fuel efficiency and performance. I wonder if I can return it? I doubt it, of course. But I don't want to give up on those qualities or pollute the air. What a pisser.

[Cicli]

Wait and see. Wait and see.

I teach diesel emissions and engine management systems for a major OEM. There is alot of technology there and its hard for the competition to figure out. This could all be an attempt by the competition to slow VW down. Euro6 emissions is tough too and they have no problem over there.

My theory is based on my information of what Navistar was accusing the competition of doing. The reality was the accuser was the one involved in the wrong doing. They (Navistar) just couldnt figure out the technology. In the end they ended up buying their exhaust aftertreatment systems from their competition (Cummins). Wait and see.

[stephenmarklay]

I had to serve on jury duty this week and I was amazed and interested as lawyers spun the webs and spun the facts.

VW can hire the best so this is far from an open and closed deal.

[AJosiahK]

Just heard this on NPR quick reviews

Lame :/

[ergott]

I just had a recall this summer that involved a reflash of the brain. Wonder if that's related. I did the reflash at a dealer for free and didn't notice any difference. I keep track of my mileage and no difference there either.

[ultraman6970]

Question... after reading the problem basically is that the software just turn on and off the emissions control system (or whatever is called) just when is needed instead of having it on all the time?? right??

If thats the problem, isnt a solution to upgrade the software so the emission system is always on??

[velomonkey]

Call me old fashion: but the VW wagon never got anywhere with me cause I'm 6'3" and, while the tall need a car - that car aint for me (the SAAB 95 wagon with a 4 cylinder engine and turbo and far roomier interior was a superior car - one of the best highway cars ever made). Also, 'turbo' and a hatchback was the original cheater: cars in Europe are taxed on weight and HP - hatchbacks give you more room, turbo gives you more speed without HP. Tesla is a hatchback for a reason.

I dig the VW, but that car can't fit tall people and, well, surprise, surprise.

[Black Dog]

Allow the union to hold another vote and let them win.

???:confused:???

Trolling?

[ergott]

Question... after reading the problem basically is that the software just turn on and off the emissions control system (or whatever is called) just when is needed instead of having it on all the time?? right??

If thats the problem, isnt a solution to upgrade the software so the emission system is always on??

Most likely, but the EPA won't like being duped like that. Someone will pay for this with their head.

[jc031699]

I just had a recall this summer that involved a reflash of the brain. Wonder if that's related. I did the reflash at a dealer for free and didn't notice any difference. I keep track of my mileage and no difference there either.

Me too, and it was listed as a recall on my notification in the mail. I can't even find that "recall" listed anywhere online.

[bcroslin]

I just had a recall this summer that involved a reflash of the brain. Wonder if that's related. I did the reflash at a dealer for free and didn't notice any difference. I keep track of my mileage and no difference there either.

Same thing here. We had an issue with the software download and they insisted we reschedule to have the software updated.

[ergott]

There's a forum I check in with for VW JSW stuff.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/forumdisplay.php?5311-Jetta-SportWagen

[Saint Vitus]

I'll just leave this right here...


http://www.bbc.com/news/business-34257424

[Cicli]

Me too, and it was listed as a recall on my notification in the mail. I can't even find that "recall" listed anywhere online.

All recalls are listed on the NHTSA website. Most of them are listed long before we even have a solution for them.

[velomonkey]

Allow me to give the response for the 11 people on the stage during the debate this week.



"China pollutes more than the US."

[Anarchist]

Wait and see. Wait and see.

I teach diesel emissions and engine management systems for a major OEM. There is alot of technology there and its hard for the competition to figure out. This could all be an attempt by the competition to slow VW down. Euro6 emissions is tough too and they have no problem over there.

My theory is based on my information of what Navistar was accusing the competition of doing. The reality was the accuser was the one involved in the wrong doing. They (Navistar) just couldnt figure out the technology. In the end they ended up buying their exhaust aftertreatment systems from their competition (Cummins). Wait and see.

I remember this, the voice of reason.

[yngpunk]

Same thing here. We had an issue with the software download and they insisted we reschedule to have the software updated.

Popular opinion is that the recall that some owners received starting back in April is related. Makes one wonder if VW was trying to get ahead of the issue before being "forced" by the government to fix the issue.

From what I've read, most people don't notice a difference in performance or fuel economy post software update. For those who've had their ECU tuned, this is another matter since it is believed that the ECU flash with new software will erase the tune and potentially make it difficult to re-tune.

[kramnnim]

If someone is looking to sell one of these horrible polluting machines, let me know...!

[eddief]

if you can't trust VW, who can you trust? Just in case you are Sheldon Cooper, this is sarcasm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82CtZX9gmZ8

[christian]

The federal government should reject the type certification of all the affected cars as it was attained by fraud, collect them, crush them, and let the owners settle with VW via the court system. Or use the threat of it to levy the appropriate fines of VW.

They won't do that, but intentional fraud to beat a regulation should mean billions in fines.

[David Kirk]

I own a 2013 TDi and it will be interesting to learn more about what the trickery does. I suspect it doesn't have a large effect on everyday driving but that the ECU was optimized for the rolling road test done in the EU to give it a better emissions rating which the euros think about when they shop for a car....unlike most of the USA.

But we will see.

I've put about 30,000 miles on mine now and it's averaged over 42 mpg for that time in all type of driving and never once have I seen any soot come out the tail pipe. Come to think of it the inside of the tail pipe is not even black.

All that said VW effed up in a big way on this one and they should pay a hefty price for this stupid decision.

dave

[bcroslin]

So since VW can tweak the ECU software I wonder if I can get them to flash my ECU so I can roll coal on those jerk cyclists.

Oops, wrong forum. :D

[christian]

I own a 2013 TDi and it will be interesting to learn more about what the trickery does. I suspect it doesn't have a large effect on everyday driving but that the ECU was optimized for the rolling road test done in the EU to give it a better emissions rating which the euros think about when they shop for a car....unlike most of the USA.

dave

Reading the NOV, it sounds like they basically shut off the lean NOx selective catalyzer. Since that has a finite lifespan based on the amount of NOx catalyzed, turning it off would mean a longer service life for the (very expensive) part. Turning it on full time shouldn't have a performance impact, but it might mean replacing that catalyzer every 30,000 miles hereafter. Since the catalyzer has to operate at a specific temperature, I'm guessing it was pretty easy - only send power to the part when the CARB/EPA cycle is being run - wheel speed indicating dyno/rolling road, specific rpm ranges etc. I guess the government needs to keep those testing protocols even more secret.

It's pretty damn sneaky and not something that got done by accident, that's for sure. And pretty amazing that they didn't admit it until the EPA said, "F*ck you then, we won't type certify your 2016 cars until you explain the variance between the test protocol results and real world results."

Good work government and WVU scientists!

[carpediemracing]

If this was pro cycling it's like VW got caught with electric motors in their bikes. There's no way around the deliberate attempt to get away with breaking the rules. It's not like a manufacturing tolerance was a bit off.

Having said that...

We are a two TDI household (2010, 2011). Also, as of a couple months ago, I'm technically an employee of a dealership family that has a VW dealership, and I park with their employees because we share lots.

[christian]

Hey Dave, I guess one could say that this is another piece of car technology derived direct from F1 (a la the 1994 traction control scandal).

[PacNW2Ford]

The federal government should reject the type certification of all the affected cars as it was attained by fraud, collect them, crush them, and let the owners settle with VW via the court system. Or use the threat of it to levy the appropriate fines of VW.

They won't do that, but intentional fraud to beat a regulation should mean billions in fines.

So the solution to having cars that cause too much pollution is to create 700,000+ tons of solid waste?

[David Kirk]

It's going to be very interesting to see how this shakes out and what VW has to do to our cars. Mine was in for basic service not that long back and I was told there was a service campaign and that the ECU was updated. I wonder if it was due to this?

I just read in the Times that VW could be fined as much as $37K for every car they sold that was part of this scheme and they said that would total $18,000,000,000 - yep 18 billions dollars.

That could hurt the bottom line. The thing that sucks is that there will be one guy at the most high up who's head will roll and then it will be the guys on the line that pay for it in the long run.

I'm pissed. I bought the car because of its high MPG and lower emissions not in spite of them.

dave

[Louis]

And of course what we really need is less government regulation, not more, because that interferes with the proper operation of the economy.

[don compton]

In the mid 1990's my son was dating a girl whose father worked for CARB. He told me that over 90% of car pollution was caused by old cars. But, the state knowing this, would not do anything about this because it would cause a tremendous uproar. There's a lot of bull���� when it comes to pollution measurements.
As bad as it sounds, I just don't believe anything politicians or gov't spokesmen say anymore. Lying to the public seems to be their MO

[eddief]

me and Sheldon Cooper are learning.

And of course what we really need is less government regulation, not more, because that interferes with the proper operation of the economy.

[mvrider]

I read this too. The gist seems to be that Europe is reconsidering their love affair with diesels.

I'll just leave this right here...


http://www.bbc.com/news/business-34257424


In this case, VW admitted the existence of the defeat device.

EPA's Notice of Violation:
http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/documents/vw-nov-caa-09-18-15.pdf

[gavingould]

I dig the VW, but that car can't fit tall people

i'm guessing you mean "tall people in the rear seats behind a tall person in the front"? i agree if there are 6 footers in the front, avg adults in the back might not be too happy with legroom. supposedly this has been helped with the new 2016 model year MQB platform.

i'm 6'5" and have no issues finding a comfortable driving position in the Sportwagen. considering decreased headroom with the panoramic moonroof, i still don't have the seat pushed all the way back...

[David Kirk]

i'm guessing you mean "tall people in the rear seats behind a tall person in the front"? i agree if there are 6 footers in the front, avg adults in the back might not be too happy with legroom. supposedly this has been helped with the new 2016 model year MQB platform.

i'm 6'5" and have no issues finding a comfortable driving position in the Sportwagen. considering decreased headroom with the panoramic moonroof, i still don't have the seat pushed all the way back...

Me too - I'm 6'4" and if I put the seat all the way back I can't push the clutch all the way in. Lots of room for me.

dave

[ergott]

I'm glad you two chimed in. I'm not tall at all, but know from cleaning my car that the seat goes way back on the rails. Sure you'll take out the knees of the person behind you, but I have the seat pretty far forward and even have the height up all the way.

[DHallerman]

As bad as it sounds, I just don't believe anything CORPORATE CEOs and other top executives say anymore. Lying to the public seems to be their MO.

Ah, fixed that.

Dave, who owns a 2013 SportWagen TDI and is quite pissed by this corporate malfeasance

[mistermo]

Call me old fashion: but the VW wagon never got anywhere with me cause I'm 6'3" and, while the tall need a car - that car aint for me (the SAAB 95 wagon with a 4 cylinder engine and turbo and far roomier interior was a superior car - one of the best highway cars ever made). Also, 'turbo' and a hatchback was the original cheater: cars in Europe are taxed on weight and HP - hatchbacks give you more room, turbo gives you more speed without HP. Tesla is a hatchback for a reason.

I dig the VW, but that car can't fit tall people and, well, surprise, surprise.

I'm 6'2" plus a bit. I find my VDub wagon fits my longer torso'd body better than some SUVS (Toyota 4Runner to be specific). No issues for me.

Specific to the thread at hand, if the original story is true, I have NO IDEA, how they can reduce emissions without a total recoding of the ECU, which would render the car materially different.

[mistermo]

There's a forum I check in with for VW JSW stuff.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/forumdisplay.php?5311-Jetta-SportWagen

This issue is specific to TDI VWs. Vortex is good, but there's also this:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/

[akelman]

So either the car performs as advertised or pollutes more than advertised? Terrific. I fear that VW will f��ix the problem with the recall, lowering performance by some amount that the article fails to mention, but then many VW owners, a group already renowned for tweaking their cars, will install an after-market software patch to restore performance. Like I said, terrific.

These cars don't work the way that VW promises at the point of sale. I think TDI owners should be allowed to return them. I suspect the class-action suit will be very interesting.

[akelman]

I mean, if you can't trust German industrialists, who can you trust?

[CNY rider]

I guess we may find out if jail for criminal behavior has been abolished for all corporate executives or only those in banking and finance.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-09-19/vw-clean-diesel-scheme-exposed-as-u-s-weighs-criminal-charges

[93legendti]

Given that the EPA was just caught lying in a scandal, I can see why they want to change the subject.


"FARMINGTON, N.M. Officials from the Environmental Protection Agency said Sunday that the Gold King Mine discharged an estimated 3 million gallons of contaminated water, three times the amount previously believed."


http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/08/09/navajo-nation-epa-spill/31384515/

A mine safety team working for the Environmental Protection Agency has inadvertently triggered the spill of a million gallons of mine wastewater in San Juan County.
The orange-colored discharge started flowing from the Gold King Mine near Silverton into Cement Creek and then the Animas River on Wednesday and prompted heath officials Thursday to warn agricultural and recreational water users to avoid the river.

EPA confirmed Friday the discharge from the mine contained heavy metals and metalloids including lead and arsenic, along with cadmium, aluminum, copper and calcium, but the agency didn't immediately discuss amounts or health risks.


https://www.cpr.org/news/newsbeat/epa-admits-it-triggered-million-gallon-mine-waste-release-animas-river

[velomateo]

It's going to be very interesting to see how this shakes out and what VW has to do to our cars. Mine was in for basic service not that long back and I was told there was a service campaign and that the ECU was updated. I wonder if it was due to this?

I just read in the Times that VW could be fined as much as $37K for every car they sold that was part of this scheme and they said that would total $18,000,000,000 - yep 18 billions dollars.

That could hurt the bottom line. The thing that sucks is that there will be one guy at the most high up who's head will roll and then it will be the guys on the line that pay for it in the long run.

I'm pissed. I bought the car because of its high MPG and lower emissions not in spite of them.

dave

My 2012 Golf TDI just had the same ECU update about 6 weeks ago. The dealer really couldn't (wouldn't) tell me what exactly it was for or how it would effect performance. I didn't notice any drop in power after the update, so I was relieved. I don't feel like my TDI has a a ton of power anyway, especially next to my wife's 2.0 turbo CC, which has basically the same engine a the GTI. But, I don't want to get a new ECU program that will make it have even less.
I would hate to have spent a couple thousand on APR mods, only to have it all deleted with a new ECU program.

[54ny77]

i just read an article on this on bloomberg. that's friggin' mind boggling.

vw is screwed.

[Climb01742]

i mean, if you can't trust german industrialists, who can you trust?

lol.

[kevinvc]

That Bloomberg article is amazing.

What is so damning is that this was something actively pursued. This isn't an oversight, said Bloomberg Intelligence auto-industry analyst Kevin Tynan.
Someone at VW had to decide that cheating the system was going to be a better use of time, money and resources than meeting the regulatory requirements, Tynan said.

This is where the potential criminal charges come into play. Combined with the billions of dollars in potential fines by the EPA and a class action lawsuit by owners who have now seen the value of their vehicles decrease significantly, this could be a crippling blow to VW. I wonder if the German government holds to the concept of "too big to fail".

[buddybikes]

Not sure if it will matter that much, not much has been put in the press - nothing on network news that I have seend. I bet most people in VW sales rooms today don't know anything about it. I only learned about it here...

[christian]

The statutory fine that the EPA can levy is equal to about 18 months of net income for the entire VW group. Wouldn't bankrupt the company, but it's not ideal. Cash reserves are around 50m Euro I think so the treasurer is going to have to do some reserving and cash flow analysis.

[4Rings6Stars]

Not sure if it will matter that much, not much has been put in the press - nothing on network news that I have seend. I bet most people in VW sales rooms today don't know anything about it. I only learned about it here...

It's a headline on most news sites that I have visited...

[gavingould]

i wouldn't be too surprised if whatever the 'fix' is has already been done to mine. was at the dealer 3 weeks ago for 30k mi/3yr service, then last weekend because the check engine dummy light had been lit since the first restart after driving it back out of the dealer.
they replaced the exhaust flap this past weekend (other owners should have also rec'd a letter from VW stating significant warranty extension on that part)

i'm betting they applied whatever ECU shenanigans during my 30k along with whatever outstanding recalls were already in place or they got it while replacing the flap.

have a riding buddy who until recently was a mech/tech for VW/Audi, none of this was surprising to him.

[zap]

I would hate to have spent a couple thousand on APR mods, only to have it all deleted with a new ECU program.

Pretty common for ecu's to get upgraded at time of service at dealerships resulting in mods being deleted. It is also very difficult to mod ecu's these days so aftermarket firms have resorted to piggyback systems.

There is a push for manufacturers to retain legal ownership of ecu's.

[bcroslin]

Pretty common for ecu's to get upgraded at time of service at dealerships resulting in mods being deleted. It is also very difficult to mod ecu's these days so aftermarket firms have resorted to piggyback systems.

There is a push for manufacturers to retain legal ownership of ecu's.

I don't know that a manufacturer can make a claim on the hardware making up the ECU but they certainly can claim ownership of the software.

btw - there's a great thread on this topic on the site metafilter (http://www.metafilter.com/153117/EPA-Accuses-VW-of-Emissions-Cheating) where some smart folks have chimed in. Worth a read while laying on the couch watching college football.

[kgreene10]

I have just 1100 miles on my new 2015 Sportwagen TDI. I wonder if I can return it an ms get the gas model instead. In sure the answer is no, in which case I'm itching to get the class action suit going ASAP. I'm really bothered by this.

[SlackMan]

I have just 1100 miles on my new 2015 Sportwagen TDI. I wonder if I can return it an ms get the gas model instead. In sure the answer is no, in which case I'm itching to get the class action suit going ASAP. I'm really bothered by this.

Probably can't return it, but a class action lawsuit was filed Friday so just be patient.

[bcroslin]

I have just 1100 miles on my new 2015 Sportwagen TDI. I wonder if I can return it an ms get the gas model instead. In sure the answer is no, in which case I'm itching to get the class action suit going ASAP. I'm really bothered by this.

I've dialed back my vitriol a bit after reading and doing some research on the potential issues. Bottom line: it seems that most manufacturers are doing similar things to get around Cali emission standards. The thread I linked to is full of good info.

[Ralph]

Now we know why some of you can get such incredible fuel economy on long light steady throttle trips.

[Jaq]

Meanwhile, just a couple dozen of the container ships that ferry these little beauties around the world - along with our TVs and organic coconut oil and iPhones and DI2s and Rapha kits - puke out as much pollutants as all the world's cars combined.

Thank god our frugal consumer habits have left us complexly innocent in all this.

[kgreene10]

Meanwhile, just a couple dozen of the container ships that ferry these little beauties around the world - along with our TVs and organic coconut oil and iPhones and DI2s and Rapha kits - puke out as much pollutants as all the world's cars combined.

Thank god our frugal consumer habits have left us complexly innocent in all this.

From what I've read, about 20% of each overseas car's carbon footprint is accounted for by the manufacturing process and pre-sale transportation.

[grawk]

I'm happy to leave the hack in place. I'll be doing all my future service at an independent.

[Seramount]

it's the times we live in.

lying and cheating are all-prevalent.

politicians, athletes, car makers...it's a long list.

[SlackMan]

I'm happy to leave the hack in place. I'll be doing all my future service at an independent.

And massively contribute to air pollution? Are you being serious?:eek:

[Louis]

And massively contribute to air pollution? Are you being serious?:eek:

Time to ROLL COAL in a Jetta !!!

[grawk]

it's hardly massively polluting. Having to do an expensive service less often coupled with better performance is a modification I'd pay to do.

I drive a vehicle that gets over 40mpg, that's the entirety of the concession to the environment I'm currently prepared to make. If everyone in this country drove the most efficient car, it wouldn't make a dent compared to helping china get to where they give a ���� about their environment and stop polluting like it's 1950.

[SlackMan]

it's hardly massively polluting. Having to do an expensive service less often coupled with better performance is a modification I'd pay to do.

I drive a vehicle that gets over 40mpg, that's the entirety of the concession to the environment I'm currently prepared to make. If everyone in this country drove the most efficient car, it wouldn't make a dent compared to helping china get to where they give a ｷｷｷｷ about their environment and stop polluting like it's 1950.

A quote from the Bloomberg article linked above: "During normal driving, the cars pollute 10 times to 40 times the legal limits, the agency estimated."

If I were to drive a car that gets 10mpg (which I don't, and I often commute by bike), I would still be way ahead of your concession.

Sorry, but I am floored by your comment...and I am a skeptic when it comes to man-made climate change!

[grawk]

The standards were made to make it impractical to sell diesel passenger vehicles, rather than to do actual good. They were intended to favor gas/electric hybrids. I guarantee my tdi engine, as sold today, is a cleaner running engine than any gas vehicle per mile today, or any vehicle sold prior to 2012.

[PacNW2Ford]

A quote from the Bloomberg article linked above: "During normal driving, the cars pollute 10 times to 40 times the legal limits, the agency estimated."

If I were to drive a car that gets 10mpg (which I don't, and I often commute by bike), I would still be way ahead of your concession.

Sorry, but I am floored by your comment...and I am a skeptic when it comes to man-made climate change!

I guarantee you that 40 illegal TDIs are polluting way less than one old Subaru, that's why it's hardly "massively". We would be way better off crushing old Subarus and giving their owners these cars from an environmental standpoint.

[SlackMan]

How can the above two posters possibly know whether the assertions they make are true given that all we know is that the VW TDIs emit a range of pollutants much, much higher than the legal limit?

Looking at this another way, if all you have to do is get the update and reduce emissions by a factor of 10x to 40x, how could you possibly justify not doing it?

[grawk]

Because they put the change in the code to make the car perform better and more reliably. I'm not willing to make my car worse because some politicians want to make hybrid cars seem better.

[SlackMan]

Because they put the change in the code to make the car perform better and more reliably. I'm not willing to make my car worse because some politicians want to make hybrid cars seem better.

Did you see the quote from the Bloomberg article? By turning off the emissions controls as they do, the cars emit 10x to 40x the limit. Are you saying that you are okay with driving the car around emitting 10x to 40x the limit? I'm still puzzled as to why this is even a possibility you are considering.

What am I missing?

[velotrack]

Given that this is new information, I'd like to hear more facts before I take a super strong stance on this. It's nice to see more than one side, and a greater variety of definite facts and numbers, before raising the pitchforks...

[kgreene10]

Because they put the change in the code to make the car perform better and more reliably. I'm not willing to make my car worse because some politicians want to make hybrid cars seem better.

This is freakin' ridiculous. It does make for some fun sparring though!

Now I'm off to create a superfund site in the storm drain in front of my house. I'll be damned if I'm going to let some (evil) politicians keep me from killing the maximum number of fish. Maybe I'll get lucky and pollute the water table while I'm at it. I must have maximum front yard performance.

[Elefantino]

I guess we may find out if jail for criminal behavior has been abolished for all corporate executives or only those in banking and finance.
I doubt VW gives as much money to candidates as banking and finance. So they'll be an easier target for the DOJ.

In other words, VW execs will be breaking rocks soon.

[bcroslin]

I doubt VW gives as much money to candidates as banking and finance. So they'll be an easier target for the DOJ.

In other words, VW execs will be breaking rocks soon.

Heh. Yeah, about that. Turns out VW's (and other automakers) lobbyists get paid quite a bit to influence the EPA. (http://www.wired.com/2015/09/epa-opposes-rules-couldve-exposed-vws-cheating/)

[David Kirk]

What VW did was set it up so that a key emissions piece of equipment doesn't operate under normal driving conditions but does during the emissions test. The reason for this is simple......the piece of equipment tends to wear out in about 30,000 miles and the regs say that VW needs to cover it for many years (I think ten but not sure) so........by leaving it turned off virtually all of the time it will never wear out and they will never be forced to replaced these under warranty.

It was a pure money saving issue for them.

I suspect that VW will be forced to do three things - first the cars will need to be recalled to have the ECU reflashed so the emissions stuff works all the time as it should. Second they will need to warranty the part when it goes bad from actually being used...over and over agin if need be...lastly they will pay a massive fine.

This is going to hurt them on a real way.

Dave

[bcroslin]

What VW did was set it up so that a key emissions piece of equipment doesn't operate under normal driving conditions but does during the emissions test. The reason for this is simple......the piece of equipment tends to wear out in about 30,000 miles and the regs say that VW needs to cover it for many years (I think ten but not sure) so........by leaving it turned off virtually all of the time it will never wear out and they will never be forced to replaced these under warranty.

It was a pure money saving issue for them.

I suspect that VW will be forced to do three things - first the cars will need to be recalled to have the ECU reflashed so the emissions stuff works all the time as it should. Second they will need to warranty the part when it goes bad from actually being used...over and over agin if need be...lastly they will pay a massive fine.

This is going to hurt them on a real way.

Dave

From everything I've read that seems like one of the possibilities. Apparently the NOx trap is expensive to replace and the warranty on the emissions system is 8 years or 80k miles which is well past the period it's rated for. Just the recalls and repairs are going to be in the $100's of thousands.

[Louis]

This is going to hurt them on a real way.

I sure hope so.

The other question will be whether or not there are any criminal charges are well. GM just payed a massive fine for the ignition stuff, but as far as I know, no criminal charges. Let's hope they can pin something on the VW guys.

[summilux]

I mean, if you can't trust German industrialists, who can you trust?

Ashley Madison

[mjb266]

Because they put the change in the code to make the car perform better and more reliably. I'm not willing to make my car worse because some politicians want to make hybrid cars seem better.

Dude, go drive the turnpike from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh and notice how the trees don't grow on the ridges. Go check out Bethlehem steel and look at the odd vegetation (or lack thereof). Emissions and acid rain are real. Acid mine drainage is as well. As are all the superfund sites. Your libertarian bent screws over the rest of us in ways not seen for a hundred years. Take your awesome diesel car and head over to China where air quality is carcinogenic.

They cheated and got caught. You are caught up in their cheating and refuse to acknowledge it.

Much easier to blame a politician than a brand you chose to believe in.

[jds108]

Dude, go drive the turnpike from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh and notice how the trees don't grow on the ridges. Go check out Bethlehem steel and look at the odd vegetation (or lack thereof). Emissions and acid rain are real. Acid mine drainage is as well. As are all the superfund sites. Your libertarian bent screws over the rest of us in ways not seen for a hundred years. Take your awesome diesel car and head over to China where air quality is carcinogenic.

They cheated and got caught. You are caught up in their cheating and refuse to acknowledge it.

Much easier to blame a politician than a brand you chose to believe in.

Give grawk a break, he's got more important things on his mind. Just wait and he'll tell us...

[mistermo]

The standards were made to make it impractical to sell diesel passenger vehicles, rather than to do actual good. They were intended to favor gas/electric hybrids. I guarantee my tdi engine, as sold today, is a cleaner running engine than any gas vehicle per mile today, or any vehicle sold prior to 2012.

I drive a tdi and I hope these statements are true, but believe they are not. I would very much like to be proven wrong.

[slowgoing]

What VW did was set it up so that a key emissions piece of equipment doesn't operate under normal driving conditions but does during the emissions test. The reason for this is simple......the piece of equipment tends to wear out in about 30,000 miles and the regs say that VW needs to cover it for many years (I think ten but not sure) so........by leaving it turned off virtually all of the time it will never wear out and they will never be forced to replaced these under warranty.

Good explanation. Thx.

[grawk]

Dude, go drive the turnpike from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh and notice how the trees don't grow on the ridges. Go check out Bethlehem steel and look at the odd vegetation (or lack thereof). Emissions and acid rain are real. Acid mine drainage is as well. As are all the superfund sites. Your libertarian bent screws over the rest of us in ways not seen for a hundred years. Take your awesome diesel car and head over to China where air quality is carcinogenic.

They cheated and got caught. You are caught up in their cheating and refuse to acknowledge it.

Much easier to blame a politician than a brand you chose to believe in.

Pretty sure it wasn't tdi engines that caused any of that. Burning coal with no SO2 or NOx remediation is a real problem.

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

Dude, go drive the turnpike from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh and notice how the trees don't grow on the ridges. Go check out Bethlehem steel and look at the odd vegetation (or lack thereof). Emissions and acid rain are real. Acid mine drainage is as well. As are all the superfund sites. Your libertarian bent screws over the rest of us in ways not seen for a hundred years. Take your awesome diesel car and head over to China where air quality is carcinogenic.

They cheated and got caught. You are caught up in their cheating and refuse to acknowledge it.

Much easier to blame a politician than a brand you chose to believe in.

Or any interstate/turnpike, better yet watch the news when there's a snowstorm that closes one or at night when there's construction and what will you see. Miles of idling tractor trailers and the very present smell of diesel fumes. Never bought into diesel being the cure all, 37 to 42 mpg every day of the week (my calculations not some live the fantasy numbers from a VW advert) in my "dated tech" '06 Honda Civic.

[oldpotatoe]

Or any interstate/turnpike, better yet watch the news when there's a snowstorm that closes one or at night when there's construction and what will you see. Miles of idling tractor trailers and the very present smell of diesel fumes. Never bought into diesel being the cure all, 37 to 42 mpg every day of the week (my calculations not some live the fantasy numbers from a VW advert) in my "dated tech" '06 Honda Civic.

My mixed city/hwy mileage on my 2013 tdi SW has been consistently 38-42mpg for 40,000 miles. Am I sweated up about all above? Nope. Love my tdi.

[shovelhd]

Ashley Madison

I love my TDI. It's had the update and it performs the same. VW will be forced to cover the effected part for as long as I care about it. I hope it's not my last diesel vehicle. It's the effect on the marketplace that I am most concerned about.

[SlackMan]

I hope the following provides some useful information to help estimate how VW might handle warranty issues. It involves a somewhat similar situation with a series of Volvos (of which I owned one), albeit Volvo did not appear to have acted with intent to defraud EPA.

http://www.autosafety.org/1999-2002-volvo-electronic-throttle-module

[alancw3]

damage control:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/volkswagen-investigate-breach-u-environment-130056594.html

[Louis]

damage control:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/volkswagen-investigate-breach-u-environment-130056594.html

They're sorry they were caught is more like it, and now wishing they had done a better job disguising the naughty behaviour.

[oldpotatoe]

I sure hope so.

The other question will be whether or not there are any criminal charges are well. GM just payed a massive fine for the ignition stuff, but as far as I know, no criminal charges. Let's hope they can pin something on the VW guys.

Really? GM=VW...didn't know anybody died because VWs emission gig.

Oh, nobody did.

[Louis]

Really? GM=VW...didn't know anybody died because VWs emission gig.

Oh, nobody did.

Just because someone doesn't die in a fiery crash doesn't mean that the additional pollution didn't do any damage.

[oldpotatoe]

Just because someone doesn't die in a fiery crash doesn't mean that the additional pollution didn't do any damage.

Damage from death or alleged damage from some TDIs emission part? To equate the GM issues and these is 'misguided', regardless of how serious those relatively small numbers of TDIs might be and their impact might be to you.

[Louis]

Peter, I'm not sure what your point it.

GM should have had more than a just a fine.

VW should have more than just a fine.

[Dustin]

Peter, I'm not sure what your point it.



GM should have had more than a just a fine.



VW should have more than just a fine.


Yes, as with so many financial institutions that paid only a fine without so much as acknowledging any wrongdoing.

Increasingly it seems that if the rule for normal people is "commit the crime and do the time," the rule for the powerful is only "do the crime and pay the fine."

Deux poids, deux mesures.

[SlackMan]

I hope the following provides some useful information to help estimate how VW might handle warranty issues. It involves a somewhat similar situation with a series of Volvos (of which I owned one), albeit Volvo did not appear to have acted with intent to defraud EPA.

http://www.autosafety.org/1999-2002-volvo-electronic-throttle-module

Sorry, my bad in linking to the wrong article. The punchline is that Volvo extended warranty to 10 years or 200,000 miles. I suspect that something similar could be agreed to in VW's situation.

[old fat man]

Peter, I'm not sure what your point it.

GM should have had more than a just a fine.

VW should have more than just a fine.

He has no point, he has a biased opinion as a tdi owner. Same as his opinion on campy and hand built wheels.

I too have a biased opinion when I use or own something I really like. I have a biased opinion that mike zanconato makes the best steel bikes period.

[Rada]

Yes, as with so many financial institutions that paid only a fine without so much as acknowledging any wrongdoing.



Deux poids, deux mesures.

Or get a bail out and a big bonus

[oldpotatoe]

Peter, I'm not sure what your point it.

GM should have had more than a just a fine.

VW should have more than just a fine.

My point is the GM case that involved people getting killed is not the same as this about emissions equipment. One is heinous, the other isn't, imho.

[Louis]

My point is the GM case that involved people getting killed is not the same as this about emissions equipment. One is heinous, the other isn't, imho.

True, and both need to be punished appropriately.

[oldpotatoe]

He has no point, he has a biased opinion as a tdi owner. Same as his opinion on campy and hand built wheels.

I too have a biased opinion when I use or own something I really like. I have a biased opinion that mike zanconato makes the best steel bikes period.

You are right about
-love my TDI...hopefully my last car
-I would rather walk than use Shimano and certainly never spam
-I will never own a 'wheelouttabox'..

[christian]

Will Winterkorn survive Monday? I give him until Wednesday because getting the VW board together will inexplicably take them two days. He was already damaged goods. He's definitely out this week.

I find it amazing how many people are willing to excuse deliberate fraud by a company to fail to comply with a federal statute. I like VWs but this should be punished severely. Laws only matter if deliberate breaking of them results in significant punishment.

[oldpotatoe]

True, and both need to be punished appropriately.

I agree....appropriately...

[akelman]

I find it amazing how many people are willing to excuse deliberate fraud by a company to fail to comply with a federal statute. I like VWs but this should be punished severely. Laws only matter if deliberate breaking of them results in significant punishment.

This is right on. I'm always amazed at how people seem to equate the things they buy with their core identity, but I guess that's what happens in a culture of consumption. For my part, I've loved my Sportwagen TDI, but I expect never to do business with VW again.

[Anarchist]

Did I mis something?

Has it been proven, other than in newspaper articles, that this actually happened?

[cinema]

Did I mis something?

Has it been proven, other than in newspaper articles, that this actually happened?

yeah ceo apologized

[p nut]

Did I mis something?

Has it been proven, other than in newspaper articles, that this actually happened?

From the Yahoo article linked earlier:
"We have admitted to it to the regulator. It is true. We are actively cooperating with the regulator," a Volkswagen spokesman said on Sunday"

[m_sasso]

Other Volkswagen news https://vid.me/YdCg

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

Did I mis something?

Has it been proven, other than in newspaper articles, that this actually happened?


"We have admitted to it to the regulator. It is true. We are actively cooperating with the regulator," a Volkswagen spokesman said on Sunday.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/volkswagen-investigate-breach-u-environment-130056594.html

[goonster]

I find it amazing how many people are willing to excuse deliberate fraud by a company to fail to comply with a federal statute. I like VWs but this should be punished severely. Laws only matter if deliberate breaking of them results in significant punishment.

Agreed 100%. This really is egregious, and quite rare in its scope and brazenness. Criminal charges against individuals would not be out of place.

I've heard suggestions that VW acted in good faith, but that appears to be BS because regulators have been asking very specific questions about varying emissions levels, and the company denied at length.

VW has announced an external investigation. German legislators are asking if similar tricks were used in Europe.

[ergott]

Sales on new models halted. I wonder what this means for owners. I do love the car and hope the fix (I assume there has to be one at this point) doesn't drastically effect the car. I could afford a loss of a few hp over the loss of mileage.

http://jalopnik.com/volkswagen-tells-dealers-to-halt-sales-of-new-tdi-cars-1731923302

[christian]

There won't be any performance impact of mileage impact - the NOx catalyzer is effectively a heated element in the exhaust pipe that traps specific exhaust particles. It's all downstream from the combustion chamber. The fix is to put a new program on, or "reflash" the engine management computer so the computer tells the NOx catalyzer to stay on all the time.

The only impact will be you'll have to replace the NOx catalyzer more frequently. Perhaps every 30-40,000 miles rather than never. But given this, consumers will never pay a dime for that.

[bthornt]

Volkswagen's stock price falls 20%, follow the link: http://www.usnews.com/news/business/articles/2015/09/21/vw-stock-crashes-after-admitting-it-rigged-us-emission-tests

[ergott]

There won't be any performance impact of mileage impact - the NOx catalyzer is effectively a heated element in the exhaust pipe that traps specific exhaust particles. It's all downstream from the combustion chamber. The fix is to put a new program on, or "reflash" the engine management computer so the computer tells the NOx catalyzer to stay on all the time.

The only impact will be you'll have to replace the NOx catalyzer more frequently. Perhaps every 30-40,000 miles rather than never. But given this, consumers will never pay a dime for that.

Thanks, good to know.

[Ralph]

Sales of new and used 4 cyclinder TDI's halted. This affects values. I imagine some lawsuits will follow. This mess will take a while to unravel.

But hey.....We have a orphan Mercury we inherited from my wife's Mom. Not worth much, so we just drive it.

[45K10]

I loved our 2013 Jettawagon TDI but we traded it in for a 15 Rav4 back in March ( more room for the baby). I am really surprised that VW would willingly violate the law like that. I wonder how high up the ladder that decision went?

[LJohnny]

There won't be any performance impact of mileage impact - the NOx catalyzer is effectively a heated element in the exhaust pipe that traps specific exhaust particles. It's all downstream from the combustion chamber. The fix is to put a new program on, or "reflash" the engine management computer so the computer tells the NOx catalyzer to stay on all the time.

The only impact will be you'll have to replace the NOx catalyzer more frequently. Perhaps every 30-40,000 miles rather than never. But given this, consumers will never pay a dime for that.

I am confused. So if this has no impact on the performance of the vehicle then why did they turned it off and only to be on while tested for emissions?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[1centaur]

That last question is the most interesting one. It is somewhat hard to believe this decision was made at the CEO level, though it's possible a cover-up decision was made there. But it also seems unlikely it was made at some minor software designer's level. Somebody in the chain felt some pressure to achieve something that could not be achieved by legitimate means. Was the pressure technical or monetary or both? What sign-off standards does VW have? Did the outside software provider (Bosch) know? And then when the CARB failures started happening, at what point did higher levels of management know? And then what decision(s) did they make?

There is a good reason this is an external investigation.

[oldpotatoe]

I am confused. So if this has no impact on the performance of the vehicle then why did they turned it off and only to be on while tested for emissions?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

And how did it 'know' that emissions were being tested? Know to 'turn it on'? And this to just prevent the cost of replacement?

[yngpunk]

There won't be any performance impact of mileage impact - the NOx catalyzer is effectively a heated element in the exhaust pipe that traps specific exhaust particles. It's all downstream from the combustion chamber. The fix is to put a new program on, or "reflash" the engine management computer so the computer tells the NOx catalyzer to stay on all the time.

The only impact will be you'll have to replace the NOx catalyzer more frequently. Perhaps every 30-40,000 miles rather than never. But given this, consumers will never pay a dime for that.

My understanding is that the effected vehicles use a LNT and not an SCR and in addition to the LNT needing to be replaced more frequently it will also impact performance and fuel economy

[christian]

My understanding is that the effected vehicles use a LNT and not an SCR and in addition to the LNT needing to be replaced more frequently it will also impact performance and fuel economy

Yes, the operation of the LNT would require something like a max 1.4% penalty in fuel economy during lean engine combustion. This, to me, falls under "no mileage impact." But yes, fuel economy would reduce for some (not all) combustion conditions. If your overall fuel economy goes from 38 to 37.7 mpg, it would be difficult to even detect under normal driving protocols.

[christian]

And how did it 'know' that emissions were being tested? Know to 'turn it on'? And this to just prevent the cost of replacement?

The CARB/EPA test protocol is well known by the industry; the computer was specifically programmed to identify this case, based, presumably, on relative wheel speed, and specific throttle positions and rpm ranges. This would be enough to tell the computer the car is running on a dyno and subject to a specific test. It should be noted that the car isn't programmed to cheat on periodic smog checks (for which most diesels are exempt anyway), but rather to cheat on the specific test the federal government uses to certify the car for sale in the US.

And yes, to prevent the cost of replacement. The part in question is expensive, and VW offered an 8-year warranty on it.

I've programmed engine control units (ECUs) in race cars, including doing something similar (engaging a specific protocol based on a set of difficult-to-replicate conditions) to what VW did. It's not rocket science. It does require a laptop.

[oldpotatoe]

The CARB/EPA test protocol is well known by the industry; the computer was specifically programmed to identify this case, based, presumably, on relative wheel speed, and specific throttle positions and rpm ranges. This would be enough to tell the computer the car is running on a dyno and subject to a specific test. It should be noted that the car isn't programmed to cheat on periodic smog checks (for which most diesels are exempt anyway), but rather to cheat on the specific test the federal government uses to certify the car for sale in the US.

And yes, to prevent the cost of replacement. The part in question is expensive, and VW offered an 8-year warranty on it.

I've programmed engine control units (ECUs) in race cars, including doing something similar (engaging a specific protocol based on a set of difficult-to-replicate conditions) to what VW did. It's not rocket science. It does require a laptop.

Get it-testing, the CARB/EPA test, not when I get Colorado emissions tested before I get my license plates..10-4. I'm assuming this has nothing to do with this, or does it? Not sure if my TDI is exempt or not.

[goonster]

But it also seems unlikely it was made at some minor software designer's level. Somebody in the chain felt some pressure to achieve something that could not be achieved by legitimate means.

1. No software engineer has the authority to approve something like this. There would be multiple approvals at the director level, at least.

2. There is more than one chain. All major mfg companies have a separate Quality organization, with separate reporting structure up to at least the VP level, to prevent active or passive collusion. On top of that, there is probably a separate compliance department, again with separated "chain of command" so peers cannot be pressured.

Did the outside software provider (Bosch) know?

They may well have known, but their contribution is compartmentalized, and they should be off the hook. They are responsible for making the engine run the way they are told, not for it being legal in market Z, or what comes out of the tailpipe.

And then when the CARB failures started happening, at what point did higher levels of management know? And then what decision(s) did they make?

Not CARB failures per se, but regulatory inquiries re. third party findings.

Yup, that's where the coverup could become worse than the crime.

[christian]

I'm not sure we know yet. CARB/EPA isn't saying that that was affected - just the certification test.

But the dumbest (simplest) programming for this would be to use the ABS wheel sensors to tell anytime the car is on a dyno (which would encompass almost all testing):

Get Wheelspeed(Rear-Left) as WRL (Cars have wheelspeed sensors on all four wheels to allow the usage of ABS and traction control systems)
Get Wheelspeed(Rear-Right) as WRR
Get Wheelspeed(Front-Left) as WFL
Get Wheelspeed(Front-Right) as WFR
Get RPM as RPM
WheelspeedRear = avg(WRL, WRR)
WheelspeedFront = avg(WFL, WFR)
If WheelspeedRear < WheelspeedFront
(the car is on a dyno)
And RPM > 0
(the car is running)
Do NOxCatalyzer

That's terrible dummy code, but you get the idea. It's really, really simple. Obviously, the VW code would be more sophisticated, but this would be one way to do it.

[goonster]

With very few exceptions, regulators approach manufacturers with the basic assumption that they are acting in good faith with respect to complying with the letter and spirit of the law. Once that trust breaks down, it is a long, hard battle to get back in the regulators' good graces.

Outright evasion is rare, because the downside is so great.

If a bank takes $5 out of everyone's account illegitimately, the situation is easily remedied, but the big problem for customers and overseers is that they would do it in the first place.

[Climb01742]

I'm the happy owner of an '09 GTI. It's my second VW. My local VW dealer has really upgraded their store and service department/experience the last few years. In adspeak, I was becoming a brand loyalist and was seriously considering the coming Sportswagon diesel w/4-motion or a new Microbus if it ever materialized. But damn, this changes things for me. In a time when corporations' actions become more transparent via social media, how you act is such a part of your 'brand', not just your products. How I'll feel as time passes, I'm not sure, but I've really gone from digging VW to being highly suspicious. I bet I'm not alone. $18B in fines is a lot, but I wonder how much loyalty this might cost VW too. Companies can't be cheating a-holes so easily anymore.

[David Kirk]

How long before the class action lawsuit starts? I expect one of those letters to show up sooner rather than later.

dave

[alancw3]

i wonder if this had anything to do with the ousting of ferdinand piech as chairman of vw many months ago. he had been the ceo and chairman for many years before a power struggle within the company. i would think that a high level executive had to sign off on this decision on the programming.

[grawk]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-09-19/volkswagen-emissions-cheating-found-by-curious-clean-air-group

[rwsaunders]

Here's a copy of the letter that the EPA issued to VW last week. As with anything, it looks like the issue has been on the table since May 2104 following the results of the WVU study. As the issue includes vehicles assembled since 2009, the design certainly predates the assembly date.

It's interesting to note that the "cheat" device isn't a part per se, but an algorithm as indicated in paragraph 2 on page 4. Assemble the Bosch coders and get them in a room...somebody will talk.

http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/documents/vw-nov-caa-09-18-15.pdf

In PA we have yearly mandatory safety inspections, and depending on where you live, emissions inspections, if that makes any sense. While the EPA is at work on VW, focusing on ongoing emissions testing for all vehicles would make sense as well.

PS to mjb regarding the PA Turnpike trees...road salt, gypsy moths and the locust leaf miner. Not making excuses for vehicle pollution, but it's deeper than that. You should see the ash borer damage in western PA.

[CNY rider]

With very few exceptions, regulators approach manufacturers with the basic assumption that they are acting in good faith with respect to complying with the letter and spirit of the law. Once that trust breaks down, it is a long, hard battle to get back in the regulators' good graces.

Outright evasion is rare, because the downside is so great.

If a bank takes $5 out of everyone's account illegitimately, the situation is easily remedied, but the big problem for customers and overseers is that they would do it in the first place.

Maybe it once worked that way.
SOP in this country now is for politicians (both parties, neither is any better) to accept huge bribes (sorry I meant to say "corporate campaign contributions") and then pick the industry insiders to serve as the regulators after they have been elected.
Then when the corporate folks finish their government work they go become lobbyists for those same industries or go work at law firms that do the companies bidding.
It's a big revolving door.
We live in a synergistic corporate/government kleptocracy.

[denapista]

Just in time when I want to buy a Golf Sportwagen. They won't be able to give those things away after this debacle. $24k for a loaded SE will now be way lower than that! I'm excited. Going to get out of my falling apart A4 Avant and get a TDI Golf Sportwagen.

[ultraman6970]

Shares are going down... who needs a new car? :P

[CSTRider]

I think VW should hire Lance as a spokesperson - he can go on Oprah and tell the world that everyone is doing it and it's just not possible to pass an EPA test without cheating.

(It's impossible for any thread to reach 10 pages without bringing LA into the discussion ...) :hello:

[Ken Robb]

My morning newspaper states that there is a "Stop Sales" order on VW/Audi diesels. Considering the high percentage of VW sales that are diesels I wonder how many dealers will fold if this isn't solved quickly.

[PQJ]

Damn. Cue class action lawsuits from dealers, too. "This sucker could go down."

[velomonkey]

Here is what I love.

The BMW X5 passed the tests no problem (a great car, a buddy and my parents have the diesel and it works with great MPG)

It was only when they wouldn't certify 2016 cars that VW confessed (the software update you all got was a feeble attempt at a cover up - which failed)

There is a party tonight to release the new 2016 with Lenny Kravitz playing

You can't make this stuff up, this was a really, really bad move on VWs part and it's gonna cost them considerably.

[thwart]

Wow.

As I've told several people over the past 2 yrs that I've owned my car (Golf tdi 6 spd manual)... it's just unbelievable that a car that's so much fun to drive can get that kind of mileage, even when driven hard.

True dat...

Technology exists to reduce the amount of nitrogen oxides emitted by diesels. But the technology also tends to reduce fuel economy as well as performance. The software installed by Volkswagen on vehicles sold in the United States avoided this trade-off, which could have come as a disappointment to American customers, by scaling back pollution controls when the car was not being tested.
(from the NYT)

[FlashUNC]

Now if they can get around to fixing their garbage PCV system and related rear main seal failure that happens in their 2.0T gas motors.

Says the guy dealing with this now on a motor with 45k on the clock...

[Keith A]

Not sure if this has been posted yet, but here's a statement posted today (21 September 2015) from Prof. Dr. Martin Winterkorn, CEO of Volkswagen AG...

Wolfsburg The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency and the California Air Resources Board (EPA and CARB) revealed their findings that while testing diesel cars of the Volkswagen Group they have detected manipulations that violate American environmental standards.

The Board of Management at Volkswagen AG takes these findings very seriously. I personally am deeply sorry that we have broken the trust of our customers and the public. We will cooperate fully with the responsible agencies, with transparency and urgency, to
clearly, openly, and completely establish all of the facts of this case. Volkswagen has ordered an external investigation of this matter.

We do not and will not tolerate violations of any kind of our internal rules or of the law. The trust of our customers and the public is and continues to be our most important asset. We at Volkswagen will do everything that must be done in order to re-establish the trust that so many people have placed in us, and we will do everything necessary in order to reverse the damage this has caused. This matter has first priority for me, personally, and for our entire Board of Management.

[MattTuck]

Not sure if this has been posted yet, but here's a statement posted today (21 September 2015) from Prof. Dr. Martin Winterkorn, CEO of Volkswagen AG...

Awesome. an external investigation... I know just the guy....

http://peerie.adaptive.net/faces/full/9/36485-316609.jpg


I was talking to a friend at work earlier and I was joking that they were going to pin this on a 'rogue programmer'.... Ted would be just the man for the job.

[goonster]

And how did it 'know' that emissions were being tested? Know to 'turn it on'?
The Germans even have a word for it: Testzykluserkennung (http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/abgas-skandal-bei-vw-eine-vertrauenskrise-und-viele-offene-fragen-13816081.html), i.e. "test cycle recognition."

Heh, heh . . . :beer:

[SlackMan]

Hmmm. It's interesting that Daimler's stock price and BMW's stock price are both down materially (and the automotive index) as of this posting even though the broad market is up at the moment.

http://quotes.wsj.com/XE/XETR/BMW

http://quotes.wsj.com/DDAIY

[downtube]

The highest ranking person to have signed of on this needs to be placed in a cozy jail cell for at least 10 years. I think that would permanently stop these type of shenanigans.

[Ken Robb]

CEO of VW AG stealing a line from "Casablanca": I'm shocked to discover there is gambling going on here!

[benb]

My impression is there is more here than "turning the catalyzer off". It sounds like it also involved running the engine lean, which helps fuel economy and some other emissions but just happens to hurt a lot with NOx emissions... so if they have to turn the catalyzer on & remap the fuel fuel economy would go down.. just a question of how much. If it was just about the catalyst and the fuel mapping didn't make much of a difference you would have thought they wouldn't lean the mixture so much. If the fuel savings is significant enough to risk this it would imply the fuel savings will be noticed by drivers.

It sounds like a real achilles heel for diesels... run rich, you get clean NOx emissions but sub-optimal MPG and particulates, run lean you get low particulates and great MPG but poor NOx levels.

I guess I don't understand why the fuel & air can't mixed ahead of time like a petrol engine to get this under control. (From what I've read the only reasons petrol engines don't also have this problem are a) they are able to more carefully optimize fuel:air ratios and ensure that almost all of the oxygen is burned off. b) Lower compression ratio. )

Oh well have fun filling the Urea tank in the 2016+ VWs since that solves this issue too.

[CNY rider]

The highest ranking person to have signed of on this needs to be placed in a cozy jail cell for at least 10 years. I think that would permanently stop these type of shenanigans.

Not a cozy cell.
High security prison, general population with a cellmate who hasn't seen a woman in a few decades.
You think we would be seeing ongoing massive banking fraud like LIBOR fixing cases now if some of the criminal banksters from 2007-2008 era had done hard time in the general prison population?
I don't think so.

[downtube]

Not a cozy cell.
High security prison, general population with a cellmate who hasn't seen a woman in a few decades.
You think we would be seeing ongoing massive banking fraud like LIBOR fixing cases now if some of the criminal banksters from 2007-2008 era had done hard time in the general prison population?
I don't think so.

Good answer. Good answer. I like the way you think. I'm gonna be watching you. :-)

[Tony]

Not a cozy cell.
High security prison, general population with a cellmate who hasn't seen a woman in a few decades.
You think we would be seeing ongoing massive banking fraud like LIBOR fixing cases now if some of the criminal banksters from 2007-2008 era had done hard time in the general prison population?
I don't think so.

They don't put high profile inmates with the general population, they go into PC, (Protective Custody) or what they now call Sensitive Needs yard.

[yngpunk]

Not a cozy cell.
High security prison, general population with a cellmate who hasn't seen a woman in a few decades.
You think we would be seeing ongoing massive banking fraud like LIBOR fixing cases now if some of the criminal banksters from 2007-2008 era had done hard time in the general prison population?
I don't think so.

Not that I have any first hand knowledge, but high security prison typically means solitary confinement for 23 hours a day and is reserved for the likes of Ramzi Yousef, Zacarias Moussaoui, Ted Kaczynski, Richard Reid, and Jeff Fort

[grawk]

It's because the cars are engineered for germany, which has strict but not crazy regulations, but isn't biased against diesel.

[Mark McM]

Really? GM=VW...didn't know anybody died because VWs emission gig.

Oh, nobody did.

Actually, I'll bet some people did die. Or at least they died a little bit earlier than they might have otherwise

Everybody dies eventually. The difference is, how long they live before they die. A few cars that crash may cause a few people to die much earlier than they might otherwise. Many cars with bad emissions may cause many people to die a little bit earlier than they would have otherwise.

[Mark McM]

Increasingly it seems that if the rule for normal people is "commit the crime and do the time," the rule for the powerful is only "do the crime and pay the fine."

When was that ever not the case?

[sjbraun]

As I purchased a JSW TDI in March, I'm curious to see how this plays out. I expect at a minimum, the warranty on the car will be increased considerably beyond 3 yrs/36k. Heck, maybe they even replace my JSW (with only 9k miles on it,) with a urea burning 2016.

[kgreene10]

A number of the posts here are really informative. Thanks and keep them coming.

Will the consumer class action suit include foregone resale profits as a consideration? Does that kind of thing happen?

Also, as I've mentioned, I have a 2015 JSW TDI with just 1,100 miles on it. I got the automatic even though I really wanted the manual. The thing just doesn't drive very well. The transmission shifts three times before I hit 20mph and often response to the pedal lags, so I step down, and then the turbo kicks in, peeling the skin off my face. The dealer tells me that I have to get used to how it drives. Could be, but everything is smooth in my wife's Honda CRV. Thoughts? I honestly wouldn't mind returning the thing.

[Brian Smith]

So wait, the idea is to inject hydrocarbons into a metallic combustion chamber, ignite it via compression or electrical spark, and then produce torque via a piston, connecting rod, and a crankshaft with offset rod journals? Furthermore that this arrangement requires dramatic coaxing to attain contemporary U.S. emissions standards? How quaint! Someone might feel encouragement to cheat with regard to making this Rube Goldberg arrangement compliant with testing and yet also palatable to buyers? Shocker!

TL DR: "ICE LOL!"

[Louis]

The thing just doesn't drive very well. The transmission shifts three times before I hit 20mph and often response to the pedal lags, so I step down, and then the turbo kicks in, peeling the skin off my face. The dealer tells me that I have to get used to how it drives. Could be, but everything is smooth in my wife's Honda CRV. Thoughts? I honestly wouldn't mind returning the thing.

You're obviously too old for that car. Drive it like a 19 yr old kid and you'll be fine. ;)

[Ken Robb]

A number of the posts here are really informative. Thanks and keep them coming.

Will the consumer class action suit include foregone resale profits as a consideration? Does that kind of thing happen?

Also, as I've mentioned, I have a 2015 JSW TDI with just 1,100 miles on it. I got the automatic even though I really wanted the manual. The thing just doesn't drive very well. The transmission shifts three times before I hit 20mph and often response to the pedal lags, so I step down, and then the turbo kicks in, peeling the skin off my face. The dealer tells me that I have to get used to how it drives. Could be, but everything is smooth in my wife's Honda CRV. Thoughts? I honestly wouldn't mind returning the thing.

Early upshifts and delayed downshifts are ways to decrease fuel consumption. It can be effective but that is not my preferred way for a transmission to work. If these VWs have a "Sport Mode" button that usually makes a transmission upshift and downshift at higher engine rpm so the car feels more lively. Failing that you can probably shift it manually can't you?

[akelman]

If these VWs have a "Sport Mode" button that usually makes a transmission upshift and downshift at higher engine rpm so the car feels more lively. Failing that you can probably shift it manually can't you?

There's no sport mode. But the driver can shift manually.

[grawk]

Mash on the right pedal, it'll shift at the right spots. The DSG is the best automatic out there. That said, you shoulda gone manual.

[Netdewt]

I'm mostly annoyed with people calling into question the viability of diesel as a fuel in any capacity.

If the software update ruins my mileage, I'll be getting aftermarket software...

[ofcounsel]

I'm mostly annoyed with people calling into question the viability of diesel as a fuel in any capacity.

If the software update ruins my mileage, I'll be getting aftermarket software...

Medium to long term, that's where it's going.

[p nut]

...If the software update ruins my mileage, I'll be getting aftermarket software...

So that you're back to out of compliance emission levels again? Sounds pretty irresponsible.

[grawk]

So that you're back to out of compliance emission levels again? Sounds pretty irresponsible.

The VAST majority of cars on the road pollute more than a TDI. NOx emissions on the TDI meet european standards, which are generally stricter on pollution than even california. If you're driving an electric car in an area fed with hydro power, or a VERY few other cars, you have room to criticize, otherwise, not so much.

[akelman]

The VAST majority of cars on the road pollute more than a TDI. NOx emissions on the TDI meet european standards, which are generally stricter on pollution than even california. If you're driving an electric car in an area fed with hydro power, or a VERY few other cars, you have room to criticize, otherwise, not so much.

Can you link to the European standards? Can you link to California's standards? Can you let me know precisely how much the TDI is emitting as it's currently configured?

[bcroslin]

I'm mostly annoyed with people calling into question the viability of diesel as a fuel in any capacity.

If the software update ruins my mileage, I'll be getting aftermarket software...

I read somewhere it would affect mileage by 1-2% Not enough to notice. What you will notice is your NOx trap being replaced every 30k miles.

[akelman]

Decent rundown of the situation here (http://jalopnik.com/your-guide-to-dieselgate-volkswagens-diesel-cheating-c-1731857018). It doesn't seem clear to me what is and isn't effected. I'm not sure anyone knows yet. It seems like a big mess.

[sailorboy]

I just came back from the BMW dealer with a pending trade on my '13 TDI wagon for a m235i...seriously.

I wonder if I will get better hwy mileage in it that I would've with whatever recall 'fix' VW comes up with. :butt:

BTW, in case anyone is wondering all dealers know and are killing us on trades, so if I were you and you're considering a trade-in now is not a good itme. Just hold onto it and get the fix done and hope for the best.

I decided to get out while I could. Whole thing is sickening.

[oldpotatoe]

Actually, I'll bet some people did die. Or at least they died a little bit earlier than they might have otherwise

Everybody dies eventually. The difference is, how long they live before they die. A few cars that crash may cause a few people to die much earlier than they might otherwise. Many cars with bad emissions may cause many people to die a little bit earlier than they would have otherwise.

O brother, I'm out of this one, what balderdash. How many cars are there on the road world wide? What percentage are VW TDI? What impact do places like China and India have on death and pollution and dying early? Big picture please, not VW TDI killing somebody. So ya really think these TDIs are directly responsible for somebody dying early...Yee-farging-gads.

I'm out.

[grawk]

Can you link to the European standards? Can you link to California's standards? Can you let me know precisely how much the TDI is emitting as it's currently configured?

The article I linked to earlier spoke to this. I'll let you scroll back.

[nmrt]

Wait, I'm confused...
The article you linked (if it is the Bloomberg one) says that the US emission standars are more stringent than Europe.

"Mock, European managing director of a little-known clean-air group, suggested replicating the tests in the U.S. The U.S. has higher emissions standards than the rest of the world and a history of enforcing them, so Mock and his American counterpart, John German, were sure the U.S. versions of the vehicles would pass the emissions tests, German said. That way, they reasoned, they could show Europeans it was possible for diesel cars to run clean."

What am I missing?


The article I linked to earlier spoke to this. I'll let you scroll back.

[rnhood]

I have never thought much of VW cars. I had two weak moments, one back in '68 when I bought a bug ('66 model), and a used Audi 5000 in '87. Never again. They are a button hole short of junk.

[akelman]

The article I linked to earlier spoke to this. I'll let you scroll back.

I read the article earlier. Unless I missed something, it doesn't include the information that I asked about. Did I miss something?

[gavingould]

There's no sport mode.

uh, yes there is. put it in S. that's the "sport" mapping for the DSG. the "manu-matic' mode sucks atmo, slow to shift.

[grawk]

I read the article earlier. Unless I missed something, it doesn't include the information that I asked about. Did I miss something?

my bad, I posted a different article than I meant to. I'll update tomorrow, when I'm not watching a hockey game.

Anyway, Europeans are generally stricter about emissions.

[54ny77]

If you still had that '66 you'd be surprised how much it'd be worth.

An acquaintance restores old VWs, especially vans. Old buses and newer (80's/90's) Vanagons more specifically. You'd choke if you knew how much those things go for, esp. the more rare/desirable models. He ships 'em all over the world.

I have never thought much of VW cars. I had two weak moments, one back in '68 when I bought a bug ('66 model), and a used Audi 5000 in '87. Never again. They are a button hole short of junk.

[oldpotatoe]

I have never thought much of VW cars. I had two weak moments, one back in '68 when I bought a bug ('66 model), and a used Audi 5000 in '87. Never again. They are a button hole short of junk.

Yup, what you bought 30 or 40 years ago is exactly like what's going on now. I've owned 7 VWs, never had any issue with any of them, from the 61 Beetle including my JSW.

Guess you've never driven a K car. I'm tapping out.

[velomonkey]

From Popular Mechanics (http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a4567/4330313/)

"The 50-state light-duty vehicle limit for emissions of nitrogen oxides is 0.07 grams per mile. In Western Europe, the limit is 0.29. Reducing NOx to nitrogen and oxygen is much harder with a diesel engine because the exhaust is typically cooler and contains less oxygen compared to a gas engine."

[kgreene10]

You're obviously too old for that car. Drive it like a 19 yr old kid and you'll be fine. ;)

Ah, that makes some sense especially for up shifts. The downshift issue is just plain weird -- I notice it a lot when cornering without gunning it. The car seems to want to slow to a stop unless I stomp on the gas and then go into hyperspace. I'll keep working on it, though I'm tempted to bring it back and say I want a gas model with a manual. And I got the wrong color too. I'm good in a lot of situations but apparently buying a new car is not one of them.

[palincss]

As I purchased a JSW TDI in March, I'm curious to see how this plays out. I expect at a minimum, the warranty on the car will be increased considerably beyond 3 yrs/36k. Heck, maybe they even replace my JSW (with only 9k miles on it,) with a urea burning 2016.

I bought mine in February, with just over 8K on it now. As for the free replacement -- that'd be nice, but in your dreams...

[sjbraun]

There's no sport mode. But the driver can shift manually.

My 2014 JSW has a Sport mode. Not sure why that would be missing on the 2015 models.

[akelman]

From Popular Mechanics (http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a4567/4330313/)

"The 50-state light-duty vehicle limit for emissions of nitrogen oxides is 0.07 grams per mile. In Western Europe, the limit is 0.29. Reducing NOx to nitrogen and oxygen is much harder with a diesel engine because the exhaust is typically cooler and contains less oxygen compared to a gas engine."

Thanks! Much appreciated! Now if someone knows how much NOx the TDI is currently emitting, that would be interesting. In the meantime, I guess we can assume, based on the data the EPA has released so far, that the number is up to 40x.07, which is ~10x the European standard.

That leaves me wondering if TDIs sold in the US are dirtier than the ones sold in Europe. I can't imagine they are. But if not, I don't understand the discrepancy. Actually, I guess "as much as 40 times as much pollution as allowed under the Clean Air Act" (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/19/business/volkswagen-is-ordered-to-recall-nearly-500000-vehicles-over-emissions-software.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=second-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=1) could mean many different things.

Eh, time will tell. For now, I'm going to try not to think about the fact that one of my cars has been rendered nearly worthless by a company that used concentration camp labor during WWII.

[akelman]

My 2014 JSW has a Sport mode. Not sure why that would be missing on the 2015 models.

I suspect I was wrong.

[palincss]

If these VWs have a "Sport Mode" button that usually makes a transmission upshift and downshift at higher engine rpm so the car feels more lively. Failing that you can probably shift it manually can't you?

Of course they have S mode. And Tiptronic, too. It's funny: I have a 2014 JSW TDI with DSG and have never experienced these issues. I drove a 2015 GSW TDI with DSG when they first came out while my car was having the service campaign, and aside from shifting into and out of S mode being slightly different, the cars drove just the same.

[palincss]

There's no sport mode. But the driver can shift manually.

Of course there is S mode.

[akelman]

Of course there is S mode.

As I said, a mere two comments above yours, I was wrong. It's not even the first time today that's happened. I'm hoping I can make it to bed without another such mishap, but I can't promise.

[Corso]

Not surprised: ex owner of a Audi A4-1.8 turbomotor, shared with VW. Google class action suite on that motor...

When I had my car at MY mechanic (after getting hosed by Audi dealerships(s), I was told that when the US gov said all imports had to have the onboard diagnostics (OBD) port, VW/Audi added the plug in ports, but the wiring wasn�š complete, just a dummy port. When they finally made them functional, they had their own codes/computers readers, not universal as the gov mandated.

VW was fined big time for that, so I was told

I loved my 2001 A-4 when it was new, problem is, they don't stay new, and I'll never buy an Audi/VW ever again.

[goonster]

Now if someone knows how much NOx the TDI is currently emitting, that would be interesting. In the meantime, I guess we can assume, based on the data the EPA has released so far, that the number is up to 40x.07, which is ~10x the European standard.

I guess that depends on what you mean by "current." For a 2012 JSW, the WVU study (http://www.theicct.org/use-emissions-testing-light-duty-diesel-vehicles-us) has your answer: up to ~1.5 g/km in urban traffic.

For now, I'm going to try not to think about the fact that one of my cars has been rendered nearly worthless by a company that used concentration camp labor during WWII.

Oh, c'mon. This is hardly the time for a Godwin's Law violation. :rolleyes:

If it makes you feel any better, I'll buy your car for worthless + $500.

[shovelhd]

My impression is there is more here than "turning the catalyzer off". It sounds like it also involved running the engine lean, which helps fuel economy and some other emissions but just happens to hurt a lot with NOx emissions... so if they have to turn the catalyzer on & remap the fuel fuel economy would go down.. just a question of how much. If it was just about the catalyst and the fuel mapping didn't make much of a difference you would have thought they wouldn't lean the mixture so much. If the fuel savings is significant enough to risk this it would imply the fuel savings will be noticed by drivers.

It sounds like a real achilles heel for diesels... run rich, you get clean NOx emissions but sub-optimal MPG and particulates, run lean you get low particulates and great MPG but poor NOx levels.

I guess I don't understand why the fuel & air can't mixed ahead of time like a petrol engine to get this under control. (From what I've read the only reasons petrol engines don't also have this problem are a) they are able to more carefully optimize fuel:air ratios and ensure that almost all of the oxygen is burned off. b) Lower compression ratio. )

Oh well have fun filling the Urea tank in the 2016+ VWs since that solves this issue too.

All internal combustion engines have the tradeoff between lean running and emissions. The issue is not lean running, it's that diesels are most efficient when they run hot. Hotter exhaust means higher NOx.

Adblue is not a universal cure. Maybe cranking up the dosage for cars equipped with it may get emissions to pass without the switch, maybe not. Remains to be seen. But for those of us 2009-2014 owners, it's going to take some creative design and extensive modification to update the hundreds of thousands of vehicles sold. A software detuning would be unacceptable. It would be materially changing the vehicle I bought, which I bought specifically to avoid using Adblue. It's going to take a while and it could get very messy. Meanwhile there's a stop sale order in the US and Canada. The clock is ticking.

I had the emissions update done to mine last month, the first attempt by VW to cover this up. My fuel mileage dropped a little bit. Regens occur at about the same intervals, but it runs rough during the cycle. It was a small step backwards.

Chip mods are a tough deal in CARB states like MA and CA. They are easily detected during inspections.

[akelman]

Oh, c'mon. This is hardly the time for a Godwin's Law violation.

I don't think it's a Godwin violation if the people in question actually collaborated with the Nazis.

[Louis]

Oh, c'mon. This is hardly the time for a Godwin's Law violation. :rolleyes:

Since I'm not involved with this particular argument I can post these:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-kZNInNJY4EE/UI6pjGMYlSI/AAAAAAAAFKo/VEfd4aRKXMo/s1600/hitler-and-volkswagen-beetle.png

http://orig07.deviantart.net/7fc5/f/2013/023/7/d/7d7f252898496447dda4889bab0e57ba-d5sgew2.jpg

http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/wwfeatures/624_351/images/live/p0/1f/wg/p01fwg0g.jpg

http://s1d3.turboimagehost.com/sp/438ac61c2e0698b7e32d40dddfd968c3/volkswagen-beetle-hitler.png

[christian]

Oh, c'mon. This is hardly the time for a Godwin's Law violation. :rolleyes:I rode in a ThyssenKrupp elevator today. Not one made with slave labor though. :)

[p nut]

The VAST majority of cars on the road pollute more than a TDI.... If you're driving an electric car in an area fed with hydro power, or a VERY few other cars, you have room to criticize, otherwise, not so much.

Do you have any references supporting this? Everything I'm finding says the opposite.

[goonster]

I don't think it's a Godwin violation if the people in question actually collaborated with the Nazis.

The people you are referring to were rabid, mass-murdering Nazis, but since they did not manage the engine control software of today's VW TDI's it has nothing to do with this.

[akelman]

The people you are referring to were rabid, mass-murdering Nazis, but since they did not manage the engine control software of today's VW TDI's it has nothing to do with this.

Oh, dude, you were serious? In that case, consider my entirely accurate statement retracted. If I want to fight about history, I've got plenty of opportunities at the office.

[akelman]

Also, I bought the car, so I obviously don't consider the current management at VW culpable for the corporation's past crimes. I really was just kidding around. I promise!

[goonster]

Since I'm not involved with this particular argument I can post these
Now, all the Porsche owners will feel bad . . . :(

[Louis]

Now, all the Porsche owners will feel bad . . . :(

They can take some aspirin - as long as they don't choose Bayer...

[goonster]

They can take some aspirin - as long as they don't choose Bayer...

Well played.

[echappist]

They can take some aspirin - as long as they don't choose Bayer...



Well played.

+1. beat me to it. Though with all the headaches here, i won't blame the owners if they decide to go chase after elusive dragon (aka heroin, also made by Bayer). In case people are wondering, Bayer was part of IG Farben of the Zyklon infamy (Farben is German for "dye" as a few of the constituent companies started by making dye material). ThyssenKrupp, as previously mentioned, was another conglomerate that saw significant expansion during WW-II and subsequent division afterwards.

to bring this onto a lighter note, i've been following Bundesliga quite a bit lately after having given up on the gladiatorial sport known as American Football. I guess this makes it all the easier not to like VfL Wolfsburg.

I guess this also make the choice for my next car a lot easier. Previously i had thought about possibly getting a CPO VW SW for my next car, but after this episode, the decision is a lot easier to make. Though truth be told, the VW never stood much of a chance as their CPO policy is rather stingy. It's gonna be a Volvo V60 all the way from hereon out.

[Louis]

The thing is, during WW2 entire economies were converted over to supporting the war effort and killing of all types, whether it be bullets, poison gas, or A-bombs. The issue of collective guilt is an interesting question that we won't solve on this thread or elsewhere, but obviously the vast majority of Americans (and the rest of the world) don't have any problems buying German or Japanese products.

Heck, all the "Made in China" stuff we buy today by the ship-load isn't guilt free either, nor are the sweatshops in Bangladesh or Vietnam or wherever. The last few pairs of shoes and boots I've bought were all Made in USA, and believe me, they were way more expensive than some of the alternatives. I can't criticize someone who's decided that they don't want to pay $350 for a pair of Danner Mountain Lights...

[Scuzzer]

I can't criticize someone who's decided that they don't want to pay $350 for a pair of Danner Mountain Lights...

Ouch, my Mtn Lights were only $120, but I bought them in 1984. Used them last month for a trip up to the cabin so for longevity alone I think they're worth the expense.

Oh wait, this is the VW thread. Nevermind.

[palincss]

It's gonna be a Volvo V60 all the way from hereon out.

Except that it's too small inside to fit a bicycle with fenders & both wheels on.

[ergott]

I really want diesel to work. I'm just so board of driving little 4-banger gas engines. They need to be revved up to 4k plus for any sort of power. The best part of diesel is all the power is in the low range where you normally keep the engine revs.

Here's to a solution that keeps me happy with the car!

:beer:

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

The way this will end, and end quickly, VW admits very little to no wrong doing (spin). Catalyzer (or whatever it's called) will be warranted forever, warranty transferable and they'll settle for about half on the fines that would be possibly levied. Imho.

[MattTuck]

This seems to be a quickly escalating story. Calls for investigations in Europe and South Korea.

VW stock is way down, default risk way up.

[ergott]

We already got a warranty extended on the HPFP (high pressure fuel pump) after VW finally admitted that it's prone to failure. It's a very expensive fix and initially they just told people they were using bad diesel. Turns out to be an issue so we got the letter in the mail. It's even transferrable.

[sjbraun]

When did you receive the letter? I haven't received anything from VW concerning the HPFP. I bought my 2014 JSW in March.

[ergott]

When did you receive the letter? I haven't received anything from VW concerning the HPFP. I bought my 2014 JSW in March.

Some time early summer. Mine's a 2011. I'll have to dig it up.

[akelman]

Per this article (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/22/business/the-wrath-of-volkswagens-drivers.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0), it sounds like we could be waiting awhile before there's any meaningful resolution to this tire fire. VW has up to a year to engineer a fix for the problem and then issue its recall. In the meantime, I hope they announce a buy-back program. I'm not especially optimistic on that front.

[akelman]

The way this will end, and end quickly, VW admits very little to no wrong doing (spin). Catalyzer (or whatever it's called) will be warranted forever, warranty transferable and they'll settle for about half on the fines that would be possibly levied. Imho.

VW has already admitted culpability. The question now is who knew what and when and who's going to be punished and how severely: massive fines or prison time for executives.

[Rusty Luggs]

Old, but decent basic article describing how emissions regs. work in the US.
Note that regs. are fuel neutral. Light vehicle diesels and gas fueled engines comply with same standards but also note standards are a fleet-average standard, not individual vehicle standard.
http://www.edmunds.com/car-technology/untangling-us-vehicle-emissions-regulations.html

Info on TDI emissions controls, worth reading if you want to ponder and speculate on the potential complexity of any fix or ways emissions compliance cert. might have been gamed.
http://www.natef.org/NATEF/media/NATEFMedia/VW%20Files/2-0-TDI-SSP.pdf

[martl]

http://fotos.rennrad-news.de/f3/3/396/396491-nrwjddr6ruwp-cpggf8swgaauhcu_jpglarge-medium.jpg (http://fotos.rennrad-news.de/p/396491)

[christian]

Ooops, it turns out that all 11m of those cars sold all intentionally evaded emission controls.

So... Ducati gets shuttered, Bentley and Lamborghini get bought by the sovereign wealth fund of Dubai, Audi is Chinese within the year (Chinese bureaucrats love their A6s), and worst case Mercedes buys MAN (if Euro regulator allow it). And the Porsche family take their namesake brand private again. The stock of the remaining VW/Skoda won't be worth much.

Crime doesn't pay kids! Obligatorywhythefismartinwinterkornstillemployed? Oh yeah, because the board doesn't meet until Friday.

[druptight]

Link for the below:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/23/business/international/volkswagen-diesel-car-scandal.html

They apparently are deciding to cut their losses and admit widespread cheating worldwide. Turns out this cheat wasn't only installed on US sold cleandiesel cars, but on a worldwide basis. Fun times for us TDI owners.

Ooops, it turns out that all 11m of those cars sold all intentionally evaded emission controls.

So... Ducati gets shuttered, Bentley and Lamborghini get bought by the sovereign wealth fund of Dubai, Audi is Chinese within the year (Chinese bureaucrats love their A6s), and worst case Mercedes buys MAN (if Euro regulator allow it). And the Porsche family take their namesake brand private again. The stock of the remaining VW/Skoda won't be worth much.

Crime doesn't pay kids! Obligatorywhythefismartinwinterkornstillemployed? Oh yeah, because the board doesn't meet until Friday.

[MattTuck]

If something is too good to be true....

From what I've read and been told, the combination of excellent fuel economy and low cost (compared to other TDI vehicles on the market) on the VW TDI was too good to be true. As I understand it, the engineering behind the Mercedes and BMW TDI system is pretty advanced, with a special fluid and collector that must be changed out of the car at certain intervals that collects the NO. The VW system found a way around that costly engineering challenge...

[druptight]

If something is too good to be true....

From what I've read and been told, the combination of excellent fuel economy and low cost (compared to other TDI vehicles on the market) on the VW TDI was too good to be true. As I understand it, the engineering behind the Mercedes and BMW TDI system is pretty advanced, with a special fluid and collector that must be changed out of the car at certain intervals that collects the NO. The VW system found a way around that costly engineering challenge...

I'm not 100% sure that this is true. It seems to me that VW successfully mastered the engineering challenge, emission levels are reduced during testing. From what I understand they then turned that functionality off except during testing because the part that reduces the emissions had to be changed every 30K miles, and they didn't want to pay for that cost under an extended warranty.

[PQJ]

Crime doesn't pay kids!

Of course it does. It's the getting caught that's the problem.

[akelman]

I'm not 100% sure that this is true. It seems to me that VW successfully mastered the engineering challenge, emission levels are reduced during testing. From what I understand they then turned that functionality off except during testing because the part that reduces the emissions had to be changed every 30K miles, and they didn't want to pay for that cost under an extended warranty.

A friend in the engineering school told me this morning, after I said something very much like the above, that we're wrong, that, in fact, meeting emissions standards is both a cost problem (as you said and as I thought) AND ALSO a significant engineering problem. The fix, my friend insists, will have an impact on performance and mileage, making these wonder cars that much less wondrous and desirable. How much of an impact? That's the part I still don't understand at all.

Meanwhile, it remains to be seen if VW will be a going concern. Perhaps there won't be any fix at all!

[benb]

All internal combustion engines have the tradeoff between lean running and emissions. The issue is not lean running, it's that diesels are most efficient when they run hot. Hotter exhaust means higher NOx.


Not true, diesel exhaust temps ( are lower than petrol exhaust temps . The exhaust temp has less to do with NOx, it has to do with excess oxygen in the exhaust due to the way fuel is metered. Ranges are complex but it sounds like it's something like a 500F difference.

Petrol Engine - Throttle body/bodies - meters air and fuel
Diesel - no throttle body, air intake is open all the way all the time - intakes as much air as possible - meters only fuel (typically)

So at low throttle the petrol engine takes in a small amount of air and a small amount of fuel and burns them. At high throttle it takes in lots of air and lots of fuel and burns them.

The diesel always takes in as much air as it can and uses a little or a lot of fuel. When it's using just a little bit of fuel that's when NOx emissions go up relative to a petrol engine.

Lean running = hotter exhaust temps = lower emissions except for NOx

NOx emissions are produced if the fuel mixture is excessively lean and there is excess air left in the cylinder. The cylinder pressure causes the N + O2 to react under pressure/temp and for NOx.

VW was clever here as running lean increased MPG and reduces most of the other emissions except for NOx.. since you can't see NOx it made us all happy to be driving around on the road with VWs since they aren't emitting soot, etc..

[akelman]

Having said that, please do bear in mind, as I noted above, that my comment was based entirely on hearsay. I'm the guy who didn't realize his car had a sport mode (which, because of this thread, I used for the first time this morning, pouring even more particulates into the air).

[FlashUNC]

Ooops, it turns out that all 11m of those cars sold all intentionally evaded emission controls.

So... Ducati gets shuttered, Bentley and Lamborghini get bought by the sovereign wealth fund of Dubai, Audi is Chinese within the year (Chinese bureaucrats love their A6s), and worst case Mercedes buys MAN (if Euro regulator allow it). And the Porsche family take their namesake brand private again. The stock of the remaining VW/Skoda won't be worth much.

Crime doesn't pay kids! Obligatorywhythefismartinwinterkornstillemployed? Oh yeah, because the board doesn't meet until Friday.

He's not. Out as of this morning. Replaced by Martin Mueller.

[Jaq]

In a slightly related incident (about execs going to jail)....

Former Peanut Corporation of America Owner Stewart Parnell was sentenced to 28 years in prison in Albany, Georgia on Monday. (http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2015/09/21/peanut-executive-salmonella-sentencing/72549166/)

[martl]

He's not. Out as of this morning. Replaced by Martin Mueller.

Not officially. One Newspaper reported he's sacked (tagesspiegel), which was called "ridiculous" by the VW spokesman.

Crisis meetings seem to be in abundance at the moment, some say an emergency board meeting is due in a couple of hours. The full board is scheduled to meet on friday.

Cerman car club ADAC says they tested many cars also with other methods than the officially used ones. They say a) they occasionally get different reszlts than the official tests, but b) they find no significant differences between engines from different car makers. So VW engines aren't as good as they tried to look, but they are no worse than any BMW, Mercedes, or other brands.

[ultraman6970]

At the begining I read that were like 400.000 cars the affected ones (here in the us), but looks like that number globally is like 11 million cars?? ���?

Doubt this will be fixed with a simple recall...

http://www.wsj.com/articles/volkswagen-emissions-scandal-relates-to-11-million-cars-1442916906

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

Ooops, it turns out that all 11m of those cars sold all intentionally evaded emission controls.

So... Ducati gets shuttered, Bentley and Lamborghini get bought by the sovereign wealth fund of Dubai, Audi is Chinese within the year (Chinese bureaucrats love their A6s), and worst case Mercedes buys MAN (if Euro regulator allow it). And the Porsche family take their namesake brand private again. The stock of the remaining VW/Skoda won't be worth much.

Crime doesn't pay kids! Obligatorywhythefismartinwinterkornstillemployed? Oh yeah, because the board doesn't meet until Friday.

Makes boring, last forever Hondas seem so, much more sexy (as I duck from my exploding airbag:rolleyes:).

Love the Porsche going private again prospect.

[bcroslin]

When the dust settles you're going to see that several other manufacturers (if not all) are also cheating on emissions through similar software defeats. VW is going to be the tip of the iceberg.

We make our last car payment on our JSW next month and then my intention is to simply drive the thing until the doors fall off.

[FlashUNC]

When the dust settles you're going to see that several other manufacturers (if not all) are also cheating on emissions through similar software defeats. VW is going to be the tip of the iceberg.

We make our last car payment on our JSW next month and then my intention is to simply drive the thing until the doors fall off.

For a VW, that may not take very long. Though I admit I'm a tad grumpy given the major engine-out service I need at less than 50k on my GTI.

[zap]

When the dust settles you're going to see that several other manufacturers (if not all) are also cheating on emissions through similar software defeats. VW is going to be the tip of the iceberg.

We make our last car payment on our JSW next month and then my intention is to simply drive the thing until the doors fall off.

According to reports, the BMW X5 diesel did well in the WVA study.

I'm a bit surprised that the '15 Golf TDI is caught up in this as I understand this model has the adblue system.

VW will have a new chief..if not tomorrow then by the end of this work week.

[alancw3]

bottom line is that vw cheated and now has to pay the price. i just hope it is the $18 billion it should be. and i think there should be criminal charges for the executives of vw of america and prison time.

[yngpunk]

When the dust settles you're going to see that several other manufacturers (if not all) are also cheating on emissions through similar software defeats. VW is going to be the tip of the iceberg.

We make our last car payment on our JSW next month and then my intention is to simply drive the thing until the doors fall off.

Sign seen in a tobacco shop: "When cigars are outlawed, only outlaws will smoke cigars"

[oldpotatoe]

When the dust settles you're going to see that several other manufacturers (if not all) are also cheating on emissions through similar software defeats. VW is going to be the tip of the iceberg.

We make our last car payment on our JSW next month and then my intention is to simply drive the thing until the doors fall off.

Me too. Paid cash for mine in 2013. May get recall software, VW will pay for thingy if it breaks. No difference in performance or mileage. VW isn't going under, any more than Toyota or Chevy or Ford or Chrysler. I guess if you want to be outraged or 'sickened', even if you want to start throwing the 'n' word around(nazi)..hope you don't have any Japanese stuff, or Chinese or......

[druptight]

bottom line is that vw cheated and now has to pay the price. i just hope it is the $18 billion it should be. and i think there should be criminal charges for the executives of vw of america and prison time.

The $18B is just in the US. And they set aside $7B to "fix the problem" on the cars globally, so add those two up and you're at $25B for US fines and global car fixes, but before any European fines.

I have a feeling the 25% drop in stock price over 2 days isn't going to be the end of it. VW stock won't be looking like a bargain for a while still.

[christian]

VW isn't going under, any more than Toyota or Chevy or Ford or Chrysler.I agree, but they're going to have a few tough quarters to say the least.

$7.3b set aside to fix the problem
$18b in potential US regulatory fines
Unknown amount in Euro fines, as the cars aren't Euro compliant either
Lawsuits

They have ~$50b in the bank, so lots of cash on hand, but the potential US regulatory fines alone represent ~18 months of net income.

It's not a pretty story. I wouldn't be surprised if the Bentley/Lamborghini halo brands get spun off, though they're not worth a lot - maybe a billion.

[alessandro]

This is a wild story about regulatory authority, but mainly about chance:

It Took E.P.A. Pressure to Get VW to Admit Fault
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/22/business/it-took-epa-pressure-to-get-vw-to-admit-fault.html

Even with the looming punishment, the company almost got away with it. In fact, it most likely would have if not for a strange twist of fate and the curiosity of several auto researchers.

There's a movie script in here--except that nobody died--yet--and only people like me would pay to go see it.

[texbike]

Will Winterkorn survive Monday? I give him until Wednesday because getting the VW board together will inexplicably take them two days. He was already damaged goods. He's definitely out this week.



He's not. Out as of this morning. Replaced by Martin Mueller.

Good call! I would imagine that Herr Piech is enjoying this.... ;)

Texbike

[cinema]

I wonder if the resulting computer code to bypass emission testing was the result of a significant increase in environmental standards that are unsustainable for diesel. i literally have no idea and am not a diesel guy or even a car guy.

To that extent, how sustainable are they for regular gasoline cars? are other manufacturers doing the same thing to skirt unrealistic regulations? I'm as pinko commie as they come but am always wary of unrealistic regulation (often fueled by partisan infighting). it not only affects large business but we the peeps who live among them. headline today was dow plunges over 200 points with fears over VW debocle. how this actually reasonably relates to thousands of different publicly traded companies in every industry is beyond me but my 401k doesn't care about reason.

[GScot]

I bought a 2014 with a manual last year and love it. In the camp of fix it and move on. If the fix makes the car suck then I'll be upset.

What I'm dying to know is just how big their balls were in skirting emissions so long. I'll rate that upon finding out if there is a cheaply deployed in the field fix that brings everything into compliance such as a software update and maybe a simple mechanical update like a additional/bigger/etc catalyst. Or if it is an ordeal that requires extensive mechanical mods.

[Ken Robb]

I bought a 2014 with a manual last year and love it. In the camp of fix it and move on. If the fix makes the car suck then I'll be upset.

What I'm dying to know is just how big their balls were in skirting emissions so long. I'll rate that upon finding out if there is a cheaply deployed in the field fix that brings everything into compliance such as a software update and maybe a simple mechanical update like a additional/bigger/etc catalyst. Or if it is an ordeal that requires extensive mechanical mods.

If VW could easily fix the emissions problem without adversely affecting economy and/or performance they would have done that from the start rather than develop the cheater program. They could have used urea injection like BMW and Mercedes did. They chose to save the cost of those systems and gain the sales advantage of telling potential buyers that they would not face the added bother and expense of buying/adding urea fluid to a VW. Major STUPID decision.

[zap]

If VW could easily fix the emissions problem without adversely affecting economy and/or performance they would have done that from the start rather than develop the cheater program. They could have used urea injection like BMW and Mercedes did. They chose to save the cost of those systems and gain the sales advantage of telling potential buyers that they would not face the added bother and expense of buying/adding urea fluid to a VW. Major STUPID decision.

'15 Golf TDI does have urea injection.

http://www.tflcar.com/2014/08/does-the-2015-vw-golf-tdi-keep-the-virtues-of-its-predecessors-review/

[GScot]

If VW could easily fix the emissions problem without adversely affecting economy and/or performance they would have done that from the start rather than develop the cheater program. They could have used urea injection like BMW and Mercedes did. They chose to save the cost of those systems and gain the sales advantage of telling potential buyers that they would not face the added bother and expense of buying/adding urea fluid to a VW. Major STUPID decision.

Certainly what it looks like and that means they had the nerve to think it could never bite them in the ass down the road. If they have an easily installed by dealer quick fix that doesn't require butchering the car I'll figure that was a contingency plan.

[druptight]

This is a wild story about regulatory authority, but mainly about chance:

It Took E.P.A. Pressure to Get VW to Admit Fault
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/22/business/it-took-epa-pressure-to-get-vw-to-admit-fault.html


Here's the interesting part for me - I've read a lot of people claiming that even though it was 40x above regulatory standards, our TDI's are still belching out way less crap than most cars on the road. This quote seems to refute that:

In the lab, the two VWs performed flawlessly. But when they were taken out on the roads in California, they were belching out levels of nitrogen oxide that were 30 to 40 times higher than the regulatory standards. Even the heavy-duty trucks the researchers had tested had never performed that poorly by comparison.

[jghall]

Not read all 17 pages, so apologies if already linked.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0BRGasUUr4&feature=youtu.be

[verticaldoug]

http://www.theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/WVU_LDDV_in-use_ICCT_Report_Final_may2014.pdf

This is the research report presented by West Virginia which kicked off the problem.

Page 38 has the set-up for testing.

Apologies if this has already been posted by 17 pages is a lot to page. We should just get a masochistic viewall option.

[pff]

I bought a 2014 with a manual last year and love it. In the camp of fix it and move on. If the fix makes the car suck then I'll be upset.

Fix it and move on? Presumably it's impossible to fix, or they would have fixed it in the first place. This wasn't a mistake or an oversight, this was obviously intentional. And even if they could wave a magic wand to fix emissions without making the car perform worse, the damage to the environment and public health over the last ten years is not reversible. The most likely outcome seems to be the company pays a big fine, hurting the shareholders but leaving the execs' golden parachute intact. We really need to see some jail time for the execs behind this if we don't want this kind of corporate malfeasance to be discouraged. I'm also a bit disappointed that the standards bodies designed a test that was so easy to defeat.

[ofcounsel]

Nevermind