If the SuperPista Ultimate is not fancy enough for you

[Gsinill]

http://silca.cc/products/silca-custom-builder-program-richard-sachs

It does look good though IMHO ;)

[pdmtong]

There are people who own both a peg and a Sachs who will now buy the Sachs pump in addition to the Dario version acquired a few months ago.

That would be almost $2k in pump/pump

[mg2ride]

There are people who own both a peg and a Sachs who will now buy the Sachs pump in addition to the Dario version acquired a few months ago.

That would be almost $2k in pump/pump

A fool and his money....

[SlackMan]

http://silca.cc/products/silca-custom-builder-program-richard-sachs

It does look good though IMHO ;)

Thanks for the link! I just ordered one in each color!






Seriously, who buys these?

[AngryScientist]

this is different than just the pump. it is a piece of art put together by arguably the best bicycle painter in the business. neither he or sachs appear to be nearing retirement, but neither of them are going to be making/painting frames forever, so if their work is meaningful to a person, i can see buying this pump. the same goes for the dario pump. people spend much, much more money for art that hangs on a wall or sits on a shelf.

[fuzzalow]

A fool and his money....

Seriously, who buys these?

Would you two just please stop it.

[avalonracing]

Would you two just please stop it.

Touchy...

[ultraman6970]

IMO silca is losing its path now.

Silca shop pumps where all the time, old, rusty, greasy but they always worked to perfection.

[pdmtong]

this is different than just the pump. it is a piece of art put together by arguably the best bicycle painter in the business. neither he or sachs appear to be nearing retirement, but neither of them are going to be making/painting frames forever, so if their work is meaningful to a person, i can see buying this pump. the same goes for the dario pump. people spend much, much more money for art that hangs on a wall or sits on a shelf.

the pump itself falls into the category of "if I could I would". the naysayers - you really need to try one before yapping. and take the price out of the equation as price discussions all lead down the same dark path. from a product standpoint, functionally, aesthetically, ergonomically, the pump is fantastic.

now the paint. it's simple.

what price, art? the crazy thing is it's actually "affordable" if you really wanted one. which makes the contemplation a bit more complicated for some.

BTW the Dario ones sold out in hours.

[fuzzalow]

Touchy...

No, not in the least. I'm trying to keep them from further embarrassing themselves in their whinging about money in public.

[christian]

It looks great. You have to credit Silca with figuring out there was a market for this.

[brewsmith]

Wowza, think I'd rather have an italian bike rather than an italian pump for the price tag

[rnhood]

It appears Silica is taking a smart approach, and not making any until they get an order. But the fishing line is out there.

[reggiebaseball]

Am I the only one who is offended by this item?

It would be worth it if the builder MADE the pump,
but taking a standard pump and blazing someone's logo on it and charging 10X the normal price, and 100X the cost to produce is vulgar.
And it is taking advantage of the people who love them most, (who is gonna buy this other than a person who has already shelled out $3k+ for one or more of their frames)

It's the builders version of becoming "KISS" (the band, not keeping it simple).

To be honest, it would not surprise me to see Speedvagen or Ritte pumps like this,
and maybe not even Mr. ATMO.

but Dario becoming part of this sucks.

I dont credit Silca at all for this "artisinal pump"



It sounds more like some builders may not WANT to be making frames forever, so they are monetizing their name and logo onto products made by other people - we will see how that goes.

[ultraman6970]

You cant blame them for cashing up before retiring, and makes sense because that keeps the sport related people working but, yes... lose somehow the spirit behind... maybe many of us are still too naive to think "it is not about the money." When at the end, money talks, you cant live w/o it.

I think like you, IMO silca is losing the path set by the old owner... but it is true too that the company is not italian no more and the dude that bought it, bought it to make money, so you can't blame them for this type of products.

You have to remember too, that some dudes have farms of money... and those dudes can buy whatever they want at any time they want just because they can or they dont know what to do with it... a product made for them in specific, sucks?? well it depends a lot of how u look at the things as this point :)

[beeatnik]

doods, this pump wont send Mr. Sachs to Barbados for retirement.

House Industries, Richard Sachs, Silca, I like your style.

[charliedid]

Looks nice. Not art. Bike Pump.

Buy it if ya like it.

[duke]

Another Sachs put on. You should be used to it by now.

[mg2ride]

Would you two just please stop it.

I not quite sure what you are asking me to stop doing, but the likely answer is "no".

P.S. You are free to keep asking though.

[BobbyJones]

Wait'll you guys see the collaboration Dario is doing with Ferrari. (and I don't mean Michele)

[mg2ride]

...whinging...

I learn something new everyday.

I don't think I have ever heard or seen that word used before.

It is pronounced like Stewie's "Cool Whip"?

[fuzzalow]

Am I the only one who is offended by this item?

It would be worth it if the builder MADE the pump,
but taking a standard pump and blazing someone's logo on it and charging 10X the normal price, and 100X the cost to produce is vulgar.
And it is taking advantage of the people who love them most, (who is gonna buy this other than a person who has already shelled out $3k+ for one or more of their frames)

It's the builders version of becoming "KISS" (the band, not keeping it simple).

To be honest, it would not surprise me to see Speedvagen or Ritte pumps like this,
and maybe not even Mr. ATMO.

but Dario becoming part of this sucks.

I dont credit Silca at all for this "artisinal pump"



It sounds more like some builders may not WANT to be making frames forever, so they are monetizing their name and logo onto products made by other people - we will see how that goes.

I don't think this is a fair or justified aspersion to cast upon any of these builders. Adding insult to injury by also suggesting that SpeedVagen, Ritte and Mr. Sachs would readily involve themselves in this offensive commercialism but which also ensnared Mr. Pegoretti, which you suggest would have acquiesced to this marketing idea only with reluctance. Unfair and all pure conjecture.

What values and ethics are violated by their actions in doing this, other than what you yourself personally object to? And which you can hold true to yourself in sustaining your point of view by NOT BUYING the product. C'mon man, you can't be saying you begrudge Mr. Pegoretti or Mr. Sachs from making any stipend their licensing deal allows them to garner in the selling of pumps that their customers want to buy? Nobody put a gun to anyone's head and made them buy this pump.

Some of the negative comments here are heartless. Any one of you that object to this pump would shut up right quick if it could be yours for $100. There's no outlook on the bigger picture here or the positive vibe for builders benefiting in any small way from the bikes & the branding of their name. Instead it's the tired old nag that you're offended by an offering of a niche consumer product at a price that perceived by you as unreasonable. Well, you've had your say and you've voted NO with your wallet. I trust you will have the decency and love of freedom to allow others to vote YES or NO with their wallet with the same choice you have.

Best of fortune to Mr. Pegoretti and Mr. Sachs in this. Silca made a darn nice pump that was worthy of these builder's adornment.

[beeatnik]

^yes

[dgauthier]

this is different than just the pump. it is a piece of art (. . .)

Would you two just please stop it.

You cant blame them for cashing up before retiring (. . .)

(. . .) Some of the negative comments here are heartless. (. . .)

Okay, this is what I was talking about . . .

I can't help but be reminded of the recent Ceramicspeed thread. (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=173782&highlight=ceramicspeed) Ceramicspeed was selling an expensive cycling product of dubious benefit, and they were so roundly pilloried you'd think they were molesting children. Here on the other hand, people rush to defend the vendors' right to make a buck.

I don't get the double standard. Is it because Dario and Sachs and Bell are "cycling royalty?" As a cyclist this product insults my intelligence. The vendors associated with it are demonstrating they think their customers are idiots, and are laughing in their faces.

Another Sachs put on. You should be used to it by now.

Terrific point. I was hoping that was the case, but usually when it's a joke, the "add to cart" button doesn't work. This one works. It looks like a legit product to me.

Am I the only one who is offended by this item? (. . .)

No you're not the only one. If a Peg, Sachs, Bell or Silca product was ever in my future, it isn't now. I'm interested in sports equipment. These vendors are selling jewelry.

[oldpotatoe]

Am I the only one who is offended by this item?

It would be worth it if the builder MADE the pump,
but taking a standard pump and blazing someone's logo on it and charging 10X the normal price, and 100X the cost to produce is vulgar.
And it is taking advantage of the people who love them most, (who is gonna buy this other than a person who has already shelled out $3k+ for one or more of their frames)

It's the builders version of becoming "KISS" (the band, not keeping it simple).

To be honest, it would not surprise me to see Speedvagen or Ritte pumps like this,
and maybe not even Mr. ATMO.

but Dario becoming part of this sucks.

I dont credit Silca at all for this "artisinal pump"



It sounds more like some builders may not WANT to be making frames forever, so they are monetizing their name and logo onto products made by other people - we will see how that goes.

Are you really 'offended'?:eek:

[peanutgallery]

I just want to know if these are compatible with my Rapha commuter tuxedo?

[joosttx]

doods, this pump wont send Mr. Sachs to Barbados for retirement.

House Industries, Richard Sachs, Silca, I like your style.

You forgot Joe Bell. They all have excellent style.

[alancw3]

i just want to know if anyone would really buy that pump? it is so ridiculous that words escape me. HEY IT IS A BIKE PUMP!!!!!

[yngpunk]

...taking a standard pump and blazing someone's logo on it and charging 10X the normal price, and 100X the cost to produce is vulgar...


Let's be fair here...the standard pump is still $450 retail.

[reggiebaseball]

I don't think this is a fair or justified aspersion to cast upon any of these builders. Adding insult to injury by also suggesting that SpeedVagen, Ritte and Mr. Sachs would readily involve themselves in this offensive commercialism but which also ensnared Mr. Pegoretti, which you suggest would have acquiesced to this marketing idea only with reluctance. Unfair and all pure conjecture.

What values and ethics are violated by their actions in doing this, other than what you yourself personally object to? And which you can hold true to yourself in sustaining your point of view by NOT BUYING the product. C'mon man, you can't be saying you begrudge Mr. Pegoretti or Mr. Sachs from making any stipend their licensing deal allows them to garner in the selling of pumps that their customers want to buy? Nobody put a gun to anyone's head and made them buy this pump.

Some of the negative comments here are heartless. Any one of you that object to this pump would shut up right quick if it could be yours for $100. There's no outlook on the bigger picture here or the positive vibe for builders benefiting in any small way from the bikes & the branding of their name. Instead it's the tired old nag that you're offended by an offering of a niche consumer product at a price that perceived by you as unreasonable. Well, you've had your say and you've voted NO with your wallet. I trust you will have the decency and love of freedom to allow others to vote YES or NO with their wallet with the same choice you have.

Best of fortune to Mr. Pegoretti and Mr. Sachs in this. Silca made a darn nice pump that was worthy of these builder's adornment.

Mr Pegoretti is a proponents of "made by hand"
"fatti con le mani e il buon senso" is what it says on the box of my second MXXXXXO in my living room.

If Dario wanted to hand-TIG a bunch of $300 coathangers or corkscrews, that would be one thing. If Dario wants to release an art book of his own frame art and sell signed copies for $800 - that is fine too, I might pick one up. If Dario was taking a Silca and spending 15 minutes ciavete painting it or stenciling it himself - even that would be perfectly fine by me.

But this is a $400 premium put onto a product THAT HE NEVER TOUCHED, basically bilking his fans for a silk screened logo.

You really cannot understand the distinction? There comes a point where a brand seeks to exploit it's customers, those that are most loyal, and I see this as crossing that line.

If you want to charge $6000 for a hand made hand painted frame - that is fine. You are an artist and your price will self select your audience. Part of what justifies your price (to me) is your integrity as a builder - something with your logo on it bespeaks of quality an hand-made unique-ness.

If you want to let someone else screen print your logo onto an item and mark it up - that is simply contrary to the stated philosophy of the artisinal frame builder IMO.

Ritte, Speedvagen, or we can add Firefly and Baum too, all are marketing shops. (This is not to say their bikes are inferior). For them, a collaboration with Silca or Rapha to shlock some uber-priced nonsense would be totally expected - they would consider it smart marketing I suspect.

To hear Dario is doing it is sad I think. I hope it was a momentary lapse in judgement (maybe bad advice from a business partner/adviser) and does not mark a philosophical departure for the brand.


Have you ever corresponded with Dario? He is very blunt and funny in English.

If you emailed Dario and said "hey, my friend has very limited funds (only $1000) and is eager to try your brand, do you think he should pick up a used palosanto or Duende, or your new logo'd Silca pump?"
What do you think he would say to you?

[andrew+]

i just want to know if anyone would really buy that pump? it is so ridiculous that words escape me. HEY IT IS A BIKE PUMP!!!!!

I predict they'll sell out very quickly.

We're in the midst of a new Gilded Age. For a relative minority, $800 is nothing, pocket lint, not worthy of a single thought.

[simonov]

Mr Pegoretti is a proponents of "made by hand"
"fatti con le mani e il buon senso" is what it says on the box of my second MXXXXXO in my living room.

If Dario wanted to hand-TIG a bunch of $300 coathangers or corkscrews, that would be one thing. If Dario wants to release an art book of his own frame art and sell signed copies for $800 - that is fine too, I might pick one up. If Dario was taking a Silca and spending 15 minutes ciavete painting it or stenciling it himself - even that would be perfectly fine by me.

But this is a $400 premium put onto a product THAT HE NEVER TOUCHED, basically bilking his fans for a silk screened logo.

You really cannot understand the distinction? There comes a point where a brand seeks to exploit it's customers, those that are most loyal, and I see this as crossing that line.

If you want to charge $6000 for a hand made hand painted frame - that is fine. You are an artist and your price will self select your audience. Part of what justifies your price (to me) is your integrity as a builder - something with your logo on it bespeaks of quality an hand-made unique-ness.

If you want to let someone else screen print your logo onto an item and mark it up - that is simply contrary to the stated philosophy of the artisinal frame builder IMO.

Ritte, Speedvagen, or we can add Firefly and Baum too, all are marketing shops. (This is not to say their bikes are inferior). For them, a collaboration with Silca or Rapha to shlock some uber-priced nonsense would be totally expected - they would consider it smart marketing I suspect.

To hear Dario is doing it is sad I think. I hope it was a momentary lapse in judgement (maybe bad advice from a business partner/adviser) and does not mark a philosophical departure for the brand.


Have you ever corresponded with Dario? He is very blunt and funny in English.

If you emailed Dario and said "hey, my friend has very limited funds (only $1000) and is eager to try your brand, do you think he should pick up a used palosanto or Duende, or your new logo'd Silca pump?"
What do you think he would say to you?

Where are you finding that Dario never touched the pumps or that they're just screen printing his name on a pump. All the ones on the Silca site look to be custom painted and unique one offs. http://silca.cc/products/super-pista-ultimate-artist-edition-dario-pegoretti-3

So, assuming he really did paint them each individually, with his own hands, are you now ok with the premium price?

I've never interacted with Dario, but if he's a reasonably competent businessman I would imagine he wouldn't care much whether someone bought a pump vs. a used frame. In fact, it's more likely that the pump would earn him some money whereas the used frame sale wouldn't. And either sale has a likelihood of someone connecting with the brand enough to order a new bike, which is where he earns his living.

A brand selling their wares to people willing to buy them isn't exploitation. Jacking up gas or food prices in the wake of a hurricane is exploitation. Selling a branded, non-necessary product to a customer is commerce.

Your posts reads like any frame builder/shop that isn't struggling and toiling away with little recognition is a sell out. Speedvagen, Firefly and Baum aren't marketing companies. They're successful bike companies that happen to be great at marketing. Contrast that with the countless companies that have their bikes coming out of a mold in someone else's factory and then slap some paint on it and call it a premium product.

Honestly, I don't get why some people get so worked up over how others spend or earn their money. Especially when we're not talking about criminal enterprise or exploitative practices. These are bike pumps for people who can afford most anything they want. Good for them.

[jlwdm]

?.

You really cannot understand the distinction? There comes a point where a brand seeks to exploit it's customers, those that are most loyal, and I see this as crossing that line.

...

I am a huge believer in personal responsibility. Successful designers in all fields design overpriced and failed designs at times. You think these items are overpriced but others may not. (I would not buy one). I do not see this as exploiting a customer - a customer was not forced to buy a pump to buy a bike, the customer made a decision to buy the pump. The buyer decided the value to him and acted accordingly.

Jeff

[reggiebaseball]

Sorry, I didnt realize he painted the pumps. One off hand painted pumps are appropriate even at $1200. Yes I am totally fine with them.


It's just the Sachs pumps that suck ATMO.

[OtayBW]

...And either [pump or used frame] sale has a likelihood of someone connecting with the brand enough to order a new bike, which is where he earns his living...My sense is that sales of $800-$900 'artisan bicycle pumps' would be relatively unlikely to someone not familiar with the brand/vendor. People drop that kind of dough specifically because they are familiar and want the collectible, or one-off item. In contrast, I think someone not truly familiar with the brand - but curious about it - will likely become more connected as a long-term customer after purchasing a used frame than he will after buying a floor pump.

[simonov]

My sense is that sales of $800-$900 'artisan bicycle pumps' would be relatively unlikely to someone not familiar with the brand/vendor. People drop that kind of dough specifically because they are familiar and want the collectible, or one-off item. In contrast, I think someone not truly familiar with the brand - but curious about it - will likely become more connected as a long-term customer after purchasing a used frame than he will after buying a floor pump.

Fair point, though there are plenty of brands where people buy expensive accessories when they can't afford the real deal (cars in particular). Then again, the price of the pump probably takes it out of that realm. So yeah, agreed.

[OtayBW]

^ Thanks. I'm not trying to nit-pick with all this. People buy what they want and can afford. As someone who has a beautiful working Silca floor pump now for 30 years and who also bought a used Peg Responsorium last year because of the curiosity factor, I'm now a confirmed lover of both!

But on the $900 Silca artisan floor pump - well, I am still trying to wrap my head around that.....:rolleyes:

[Grant McLean]

I don't get the double standard. Is it because Dario and Sachs and Bell are "cycling royalty?" As a cyclist this product insults my intelligence. The vendors associated with it are demonstrating they think their customers are idiots, and are laughing in their ....

It's not a double standard, just a difference of what people value.
If super bearings and other useless 'Marginal gains' appeal to you, buy it,
But it's not surprising that a bunch of aging and uncompetitive recreational
riders would have not much love for for these tech gimmicks.

I can differentiate between products, it doesn't insult my intelligence if
A cool looking pump or pair of uber expensive bibs appeals because they're
cool. What it demonstrates to me is these brands know their customers
are wealthy. The fact you assume such a negative attitude says more about
you, don't you think?

[avalonracing]

This has been a fun thread to read through. It's all relative though. Sure I think an $800 pump is ridiculous. My friends and the woman that I've been dating would think it's insane. Yet those same people I just mentioned wouldn't blink at going out for the evening and having an $800 bar tab, which I think is bat···· crazy.

[beeatnik]

$1270 Chair
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/586/21212473728_30df8de43e_b.jpg
http://www.dwr.com/product/cesca-side-chair-leather.do?sortby=ourPicks

A less expensive version thrown out by a nearby office. I found 4.
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/696/21212415358_db6e95ba4f_b.jpg

Not Knoll, not authorized, not made in the USA (any longer, at least)
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/569/21389398912_22c25ef185_c.jpg

Beautiful design is not given away. Nor should it be.

[bostondrunk]

.....

No you're not the only one. If a Peg, Sachs, Bell or Silca product was ever in my future, it isn't now. I'm interested in sports equipment. These vendors are selling jewelry.


Then I'm guessing you'll never be interested in a Pinarello/Colnago/Ridley/Canyon/Felt/Merlin/Madone/

You can buy any old cheap frame that will more than make due. But these above companies, damn, they throw a carbon mold together in China, spray paint it, and charge $6k. Damn!

:crap:

While Sachs has no personal appeal to me, I do want one of the 'normal' versions of the new Silca Ultimate pump.

[fuzzalow]

Hey, buy what you like, enjoy the things that can add to the experience. Sometimes you just wanna have things that don't make a lotta sense. Just because. Now how could anybody disparage somebody else just for doin' that?

I am totally cool about somebody not seeing the value in something like this in their own terms and perspective. I will admit to some dismay and bemusement when it gets to ad hominem towards to persons that like or buy these kinda niche products - like this is anybody else's business. Sheesh, call 'em stupid but they figured out how to earn enough to buy one - maybe not so stupid after all.

[sessl]

Fascinating thread. It's amusing that people say these pumps are an insult to intelligence. Perhaps you ought to view them as a confirmation of your intelligence? I for one would love one as a fixture in my home...

[sjauch2]

Paceline, the forum that likes to complain about expensive things.

[jmoore]

When someone else spends a bunch of money for something you don't value, it's OMG crazy. When we spend a bunch of money for something we value, it's perfectly fine.

An $800 bike pump is crazy to me, but there are a lot of other things that are WAY more expensive that people spend money on. Heck how many women have multiple $800 purses that get used for a few months and thrown away? At least this pump will be around for a while.

[dgauthier]

Then I'm guessing you'll never be interested in a Pinarello/Colnago/Ridley/Canyon/Felt/Merlin/Madone/

I'd love a Spectrum.

[bostondrunk]

I'd love a Spectrum.

I would too, actually. Always been a fan of Tom's work.
But again, a walmart bike would get me from point A to point B too.... :banana:

[round]

If Dario was taking a Silca and spending 15 minutes ciavete painting it or stenciling it himself - even that would be perfectly fine by me.

But this is a $400 premium put onto a product THAT HE NEVER TOUCHED, basically bilking his fans for a silk screened logo.


hey Reggie ciao,
sorry but I am not able to be so fast, don't forget that I'm a little ahead with the age !!!
d

[happycampyer]

^^^ priceless

[dgauthier]

It's not a double standard, just a difference of what people value.
If super bearings and other useless 'Marginal gains' appeal to you, buy it,
But it's not surprising that a bunch of aging and uncompetitive recreational
riders would have not much love for for these tech gimmicks.

I can differentiate between products, it doesn't insult my intelligence if
A cool looking pump or pair of uber expensive bibs appeals because they're
cool. What it demonstrates to me is these brands know their customers
are wealthy. The fact you assume such a negative attitude says more about
you, don't you think?

Absolutely it says something about me. Knowing these vendors frequent this forum, I was trying to send a strong message that this sort of product alienates certain customers.

A high quality, hand made steel bicycle frame can be a wiser choice for noncompetitive 100+ miles a week cycling enthusiasts like ourselves, providing a lifetime of enjoyment and not giving up one iota of performance compared to the latest breaks-if-it-falls-over reinforced plastic mass market frame. A bike is sports equipment, a tool to optimally perform a function, not a fancy bit of conspicuous consumption one buys to impress one's friends. At least, that's the message these vendors have been sending in the past. But a useless painted bicycle pump made for the more money than brains crowd sends a completely different message. In my opinion, these vendors are squandering their credibility, and saying their products are just as much of a sham as a $3000 Italian designer purse.

My negativity reflects my disappointment. I thought these vendors meant what they've been saying all these years.

[zap]

This has been a fun thread to read through. It's all relative though. Sure I think an $800 pump is ridiculous. My friends and the woman that I've been dating would think it's insane. Yet those same people I just mentioned wouldn't blink at going out for the evening and having an $800 bar tab, which I think is batï½·ï½·ï½·ï½· crazy.

pissing money away......

[fuzzalow]

hey Reggie ciao,
sorry but I am not able to be so fast, don't forget that I'm a little ahead with the age !!!
d

There you have it, confirmation from Signore Pegoretti of fatti con le mani on these pumps. Say what you will, those pumps are worth every penny to me and I missed the offering!

Have you ever corresponded with Dario? He is very blunt and funny in English.

I met Signore Pegoretti and conversed with him. I pilgrimaged to NAHBS - Charlotte 2014 with the expressed purpose in meeting him. He was as gracious, modest and affable as one could expect from a man who possesses true talent rather brow beating a marketing mantra of contrived cool and duplicity ;). But neither version of these pumps is an exercise in grift.

I wrote about him here: Commentary on NAHBS 2014 - Aspired to Gagosian and Settled for Interbike-lite (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=145648&highlight=gagosian)

[reggiebaseball]

There you have it, confirmation from Signore Pegoretti of fatti con le mani on these pumps. Say what you will, those pumps are worth every penny to me and I missed the offering!


Yes I know, I apologize for any slander on my part - I did not know the nature of the Dario collection pumps.

Once somebody linked to them, and I could see they were hand painted it eliminated my concerns.

I already said they were well worth the price if he painted them.

I would have bought one myself, if I saw the black ciavete before it was sold.

I am glad he is not being exploitative of his fans, as Sachs clearly is ATMO.

I am sorry to have dragged Dario into this rant, someone mentioned he did a similar run to Sachs and so I threw him under the bus, because I hold his work in high regard and was sad to hear he might be like Sachs.

But the obvious difference between Darios limited edition of 10 hand painted pumps and the Sachs/Silca collaboration for 100+ stenciled pumps - well that illustrates my original point about the difference between artistry and usury quite clearly.

To close - Dario is good, so are his special edition pumps. Mea culpa.

Sachs should get his torch out and make bikes faster if he wants more revenue, not spend his time putting his logo on exploitative pumps. Just because some rich fools will pay for crap, does not justify making it.

[J. Anquetil]

I don't mind people trying to make a living, of course not. I no longer mind people trying to make a living on the basis of idiotically high prices just because there are people who will only buy the most expensive anything even if it is an inferior product. What I cannot respect are the abusive schemes of those who have made of these forums a cult for themselves, and then milk the fools who have fallen for their self-serving practices. Oh, they are smooth, they are funny, they are shameless. Too many of those around.

[Joachim]

I don't mind people trying to make a living, of course not. I no longer mind people trying to make a living on the basis of idiotically high prices just because there are people who will only buy the most expensive anything even if it is an inferior product. What I cannot respect are the abusive schemes of those who have made of these forums a cult for themselves, and then milk the fools who have fallen for their self-serving practices. Oh, they are smooth, they are funny, they are shameless. Too many of those around.

Abusive schemes when talking about bike stuff? Funny. No seriously. Funny.

[fuzzalow]

Yes I know, I apologize for any slander on my part - I did not know the nature of the Dario collection pumps.

Once somebody linked to them, and I could see they were hand painted it eliminated my concerns.

I already said they were well worth the price if he painted them.

I would have bought one myself, if I saw the black ciavete before it was sold.

I am glad he is not being exploitative of his fans, as Sachs clearly is ATMO.

I am sorry to have dragged Dario into this rant, someone mentioned he did a similar run to Sachs and so I threw him under the bus, because I hold his work in high regard and was sad to hear he might be like Sachs.

But the obvious difference between Darios limited edition of 10 hand painted pumps and the Sachs/Silca collaboration for 100+ stenciled pumps - well that illustrates my original point about the difference between artistry and usury quite clearly.

To close - Dario is good, so are his special edition pumps. Mea culpa.

Sachs should get his torch out and make bikes faster if he wants more revenue, not spend his time putting his logo on exploitative pumps. Just because some rich fools will pay for crap, does not justify making it.

Hey reggiebaseball, dontworryboudit. I freely admit to being a fan-boi of Dario. And it is true that, in a manner that IMO is reflective of the man, his offering of a hand painted special limited edition pump is as honest as Dario himself most certainly is as a person. Signore Pegoretti just puts it out there and the work always does the talking for him. No need to BS when there is no BS.

As far as your pointing out the difference in hand painted Peg pumps versus however way the Sachs pumps are painted, yes you are also correct. But in defense of RS, his pumps are no less legitimate than the Pegoretti pumps, they just reflect on the different oeuvre, approach & talents of each of their respective builder affiliations. And if anybody likes a builder, then they like the builder. Buy the pump!

Finally, those that try to extend the cult beyond borders that they themselves have paid for the right of editorial purview have met with limited success here in this forum. It is a tribute to the quality of this forum that those opinions are allowed to be voiced here at all and that my opposition to them is also allowed to be expressed. What J. Anquetil refers to a "abusive schemes" I wouldn't agree is an apt description. Rather it is more like it is cultivating a sycophantic mindset for commercial exploitation. Seems crazy to me but hey, whatever turns you on.

[e-RICHIE]

I've been traveling to and from races since Thursday and still won't be home until next Friday - but have certainly seen this thread. Sorry it's taken this long for me to post.

I'm used to the points of view regarding what something should sell for, if it's "worth it", and related. It's the internet, so I'm also used to strong opinions, vitriol, and comments that veer into the personal. I've had a login here since Gary/Kahuna started the room that's evolved into what we have now and have seen conversations take all directions.

For the sake of clarity, I want to clear some air. The pumps are great in my opinion, whether decorated or not. I'm 100 percent behind Josh's efforts to take his brand in the direction he deems best. I trust his judgement.

As far as the link in the OP is concerned, there's a bit of projecting at play here. These pumps are sold by Silca and decorated by JB. The list price reflects what Josh and Silca deem to be a fair one for the original $500 item as well as the costs involved to admin the flow of custom orders and pay JB for his time and labor. I'm not involved in the line itemization, the revenue stream, or any part of these. I'd be lying if I intimated that I wouldn't go to the ends of the Earth to help them promote these pumps.

It's not that I'd feel corrupt by taking a cut, or any less of a framebuilder, or a bad citizen of the community I'm part of. I certainly profit from having my logo on twenty cent water bottles that cost than three dollars to get screened then sell for twenty seven dollars for a three-set. And I also liked the money once made from t shirts I offered that came from El Salvador. And I'll include the caps from China, the kits from Poland, and the handlebar wrap that's made in Taiwan. And to tie this together, selling JB painted Impero pumps to match frames has been a standard option since the 1970s. I'm sure I've sold a thousand of these if I sold one. Some add-ons are what we consider a license to print money, however tawdry that characterization may seem. When you work alone making one bicycle at a time, additional revenue streams help. I can live with the ones I've selected over time to help me stay in business.

Thank you.

[Keith A]

Richard -- thanks for your input!

[velomonkey]

I'll try to add what I can.

At this point I would never buy a new silca pump - any of their pumps. In my view Josh has aimed too high.

Here is what I can say: of all the places I put my dollars; food, clothes, car, gas, mortgage, banks, cable companies, mobile phone companies, online sites . . . . . Richard Sachs doesn't even register . . . I mean that as a compliment.

This is a guy who created the artisan frame building movement. There are dozens of companies who follow his lead and we all benefit.

These pumps are an extension of a brand - a well earned brand. They aren't the brand, the man or the product.

Richard do what you do - Josh, take it down a bit and then I'll look, but I get what you're doing; it's just a bit too high.

[fuzzalow]

This is a guy who created the artisan frame building movement. There are dozens of companies who follow his lead and we all benefit.

Disagree. There were many before him. If anyone could be called the godfather of the American craftswork bicycle, I'd suggest Albert Eisentraut.

Albert has also taught dozens his craft; his notable students include Bruce Gordon, Joe Breeze, Skip Hujsak, Mark Nobilette, and Bill Stevenson, making Eisentraut the American godfather of modern day frame building.

Quoted from: Classic Rendezvous USA builders (https://web.archive.org/web/20130805105520/http://classicrendezvous.com/USA/Eisentraut_main.htm)

The Silca pumps are a good move upmarket and will appeal to those with an appreciation of such items. Simple.

[Wakatel_Luum]

Absolutely it says something about me. Knowing these vendors frequent this forum, I was trying to send a strong message that this sort of product alienates certain customers.


Agree...

It's nice to own beautiful things but I can't help if I get a whiff of elitism...I guess it's just the same with everything else these days, why shouldn't cycling be the same... :(

Back to my bubble...

[velomonkey]

Disagree. There were many before him. If anyone could be called the godfather of the American craftswork bicycle, I'd suggest Albert Eisentraut.

The Silca pumps are a good move upmarket and will appeal to those with an appreciation of such items. Simple.

Wait, so you're going to argue that the 'new' slica pumps are a good move, but Sachs aint the first it goes to Einsentraut? Ok . . . .

It's like we're arguing Boyer or LeMond - sure one was 1st, the other is another league.

I'm talking the other league and by extension - silca is the other league. got it.

[bostondrunk]

Agree...

It's nice to own beautiful things but I can't help if I get a whiff of elitism...I guess it's just the same with everything else these days, why shouldn't cycling be the same... :(

Back to my bubble...


I just don't understand how folks can feel this way, yet its OK to spend $5000+ on a frameset instead of $1000. Go to the custom bikes gallery, see the money spent on 'elitism' there! Does anyone -really- believe you need to spend thousands on a frame for it to be reliable and last a long time??? If so, you've been brain washed.

If you're a smart shopper, you can find the new Silca pump for a little under $400 US. So that is about $300 above a 'normal' high end pump like Specialized or Lezyne. $300 is a drop in the bucket to some, less than a lot of folks spend on a pair of Assos shorts, etc.
Don't understand the hate. Some folks spend 10k on a Rolex, which to me is an incredible joke.
If spending a few hundred extra on a quality tool isn't for you, then don't buy it!

As for the eRitchie upcharge version.....he's been around these forums forever.....I love/hate the guy...;) The paint job is a chance for fans of his to have something unique, done by the best bike painter in the world.

As I get a bit older (but younger than eRitchie), I find myself not being as much of a 'bike whore', selling off some stuff, and going for quality over quantity. I am almost certainly buying one of the Silca pumps, sans paint job. But I might put an eRitchie sticker on it... :)

[mg2ride]

Will: See, the sad thing about a guy like you is, in 50 years you're gonna start doin' some thinkin' on your own and you're going to come up with the fact that there are two certainties in life: one, don't do that, and two, you dropped 150 grand on a ····in' education you could have got for a dollar fifty in late charges at the public library!

Clark: Yeah, but I will have a degree. And you'll be servin' my kids fries at a drive-thru on our way to a skiing trip.

Will: That may be, but at least I won't be unoriginal. But I mean, if you have a problem with that, I mean, we could just step outside - we could figure it out.

Clark: No, man, there's no problem. It's cool.

[fuzzalow]

Wait, so you're going to argue that the 'new' slica pumps are a good move, but Sachs aint the first it goes to Einsentraut? Ok . . . .

It's like we're arguing Boyer or LeMond - sure one was 1st, the other is another league.

I'm talking the other league and by extension - silca is the other league. got it.

Hmm, I dunno. Our exchanges have usually been civil, if not cordial. I don't see where my earlier response to you was inflammatory to incite what reads as a snippy reply here on your part.

Giving credit to that single builder for the creation of "the artisan frame building movement" is just the type of bombastic, self promoting drivel one could expect would be implied by said builder of himself. Incorrect IMO. You did a great job regurgitating the grandiose.

Hey, this is all loose talk about bike stuff. You come across as irritated or angry over a not inexpensive bicycle pump. Your dislike of the product and frustration over its pricing need not be vented on me in a simple conversation. I don't wanna hear it.

That's all for me on this one. See you at the next stop.

[pdmtong]

Comparing the extravagance of the pump to the extravagance of a frame, shoes etc. is more than just relative price comparison of substitute goods. I'd also consider a factor for price/value and price/utility.

Value of course is personal. People spend on material goods or services per their wants. No rationale there.

A relative utility argument can be made. The $400 pump puts air in. So does a $40 pump. 60 seconds. Air in. Done. Not much difference. Yes, the silica has nice ergonomics, is durable, is aesthetically beautiful. But that incremental goodness is visual, or experienced for 60 seconds. not over 100/10,000 and hours . So to me, the incremental utility delivered by the pump is much less relative to the incremental utility from extravagant spending on a frame etc.

I sort of went through this exercise with my Blackburn Air Tower 5 - the mack daddy one that inflates a mtb tire to 40 psi in 10 strokes. Blackburn made a carbon fiber barrel version of the same. I bought it. How freaking cool. But in the end I returned it since it wasnt doing anything my existing AT5 did, and where I store my pump in the corner of the garage who cares what it is made of. No one sees it but me.

If I had a salon area for bike storage and tinker, with some couches, and a flat screen, yea, I am all over the basic and probably all over the Dario or ATMO. It would make the entire "I'm going for a ride" a bit more ritualistic.

So I guess this is all to say I dont have an issue with the product or the price. If i had the right set up and the spare cash, sure, I buy one. But my reality is this is a product that's not a good fit for me and other than the initial lust, fades into the corner of my mind as just another "that's cool to have" thing.

My threshold? I'm in for a standard ultimate at $200. But only because I tried it at my LBS and yes, there is a difference.

[Wakatel_Luum]

I just don't understand how folks can feel this way, yet its OK to spend $5000+ on a frameset instead of $1000. Go to the custom bikes gallery, see the money spent on 'elitism' there! Does anyone -really- believe you need to spend thousands on a frame for it to be reliable and last a long time??? If so, you've been brain washed.


I never mentioned $5000 bike frames, don't allocate me a category...? My last frame was an old $299 steel Olmo with a carbon LOOK fork and bits I had in the garage...

[professerr]

This thread is the best advertisement for Rock Lobster frames I've seen. $1500, your choice of steel or aluminum, full custom geometry. Artiste Edition Rock Lobster graphics included free of charge.

[avalonracing]

Now a Rapha pump... THAT would be worth it!

[Tony T]

Need to get the next one named the SuperPista Ultimate Supreme at a price of $1,000
(IMO, the Dario would be worth $1,000)

[professerr]

For the sake of clarity, I want to clear some air. The pumps are great in my opinion, whether decorated or not. I'm 100 percent behind Josh's efforts to take his brand in the direction he deems best. I trust his judgement.

As far as the link in the OP is concerned, there's a bit of projecting at play here. These pumps are sold by Silca and decorated by JB. The list price reflects what Josh and Silca deem to be a fair one for the original $500 item as well as the costs involved to admin the flow of custom orders and pay JB for his time and labor. I'm not involved in the line itemization, the revenue stream, or any part of these. I'd be lying if I intimated that I wouldn't go to the ends of the Earth to help them promote these pumps.

It's not that I'd feel corrupt by taking a cut, or any less of a framebuilder, or a bad citizen of the community I'm part of.


Well, for the sake of clear clarity I'll point out that while there may be no revenue sharing per se, Silca sponsors the Sachs cyclocross team. This is no great secret -- it's in a classifieds post by Sachs across the hall where he was promoting his sponsor's product. Also info there fwiw regarding $100 Joe Bell has charged to paint frame pumps.

I think the clever wags who sell such things are at least as deserving of the money as those who buy them.

[e-RICHIE]

Well, for the sake of clear clarity I'll point out that while there may be no revenue sharing per se, Silca sponsors the Sachs cyclocross team. This is no great secret -- it's in a classifieds post by Sachs across the hall where he was promoting his sponsor's product. Also info there fwiw regarding $100 Joe Bell has charged to paint frame pumps.

I think the clever wags who sell such things are at least as deserving of the money as those who buy them.

Thank you.

[pdmtong]

And now there are three!

...Dario, Richard, and now Sacha

https://instagram.com/p/7s4-F8rhmS/?taken-by=thevanillaworkshop

[beeatnik]

$800 pump, I like your style.

$11,000 couch, I like your style.
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/733/21451569356_0b49a25609_b.jpg

http://hivemodern.com/pages/product1164/knoll-florence-knoll-sofa

[beeatnik]

$25 T-shirt, I like your style
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/743/21498633315_40f600d16b_h.jpg


http://www.theadairgroup.com/specials/1-dollar-t-shirts/

[e-RICHIE]

I'd suggest some Tellasons but the temperature is already high enough atmo...








$25 T-shirt, I like your style
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/743/21498633315_40f600d16b_h.jpg


http://www.theadairgroup.com/specials/1-dollar-t-shirts/

[beeatnik]

$50 bell, I like your style
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/564/21500908556_88d78ef3f7_o.jpg

$3 bell, your days are numbered (ah, but what days we had)
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/751/21290205240_7da264c62e_c.jpg

[tuscanyswe]

Id very much like to have one of those pumps. I just don't want to pay the tag. That applies for so many cycling items, hard for me to tell what makes these pumps any different in that regard.

Ill get a used one in 3 years.. But perhaps it will cost even more then? :)