Interesting article about steel bike frames

[oldpotatoe]

Still relevant

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/new-research-unlocks-secrets-of-steel-tubing-189907

[EricEstlund]

I'm not sure how they are choosing the "best", but this blending of tubes is what many of us have been up to for years. Still, some steel coverage by industry mags is always nice.

[weisan]

Good read, thanks old pal
Correct me if I am wrong, my understanding is, one doesn't really have to go to different tube manufacturers to get the specific tubing specifications you want. If you have enough clout or a close working relationship with them, they can make or supply whatever you want to achieve the desired effect. And most of them already have enough variety in their product catalog to choose from... And then there's tubing that came out of mutual partnerships like the PegoRichie tubing....

Nevertheless the idea of having an extra analytical tool supported by an updated database of all the available suppliers to assist with the building process cannot be discounted.

[EricEstlund]

There sure are a lot of great options in tubes, and yes, most of the big houses will make custom tubes if you hit their minimum order quantity.

[MattTuck]

Steel is real, baby!

[palincss]

I'm not sure how they are choosing the "best", but this blending of tubes is what many of us have been up to for years.

Especially since all they list is the specific manufacturer and alloy, and not the wall thickness or tubing outside diameter -- which together have far more significance. Then there's the question of how do you define "best" -- best for whom? Best how? Best for what?

It's nice they used software, that's cool and modern. But you can write software to say or do most anything. This is software: 'perl -e "print '2 + 2 = 6'" and it will run perfectly, I just tested it...

[AJM100]

I would assume frame builders have been already doing this . . . interesting read . . . I also assume the difficulties encountered with mixing have something to do with whether it is filet brazed or TIG welded.

[oldpotatoe]

I would assume frame builders have been already doing this . . . interesting read . . . I also assume the difficulties encountered with mixing have something to do with whether it is filet brazed or TIG welded.

And $.

[OtayBW]

I'm not sure how they are choosing the "best"...

...Then there's the question of how do you define "best" -- best for whom? Best how? Best for what? My first impression exactly.

[soulspinner]

Some stainless some not, 3 manufacturers. You couldnt tune the right mix of Columbus or Reynolds to accomplish this same feel on a 56 with one tubeset?

[dpk501]

But think of all the tubing decals you could have on your bike!!!!

Some stainless some not, 3 manufacturers. You couldnt tune the right mix of Columbus or Reynolds to accomplish this same feel on a 56 with one tubeset?

[bikingshearer]

This sounds evolutionary, not revolutionary, to me. Two of my main riders date from 1978 and 1982, one from England and one from the USA, both from builders well-known as among the very best. Both have tubes from a mix of sources, chosen by the builder, and neither has a tubing sticker on it. I have no idea what they used and that's okay with me - it is the rider that holds the bikes back, not the other way around.

What this article is talking about seems to be about quantifying something that bespoke builders have long done based on experience and client feedback. Nothing wrong with that. But I don't see how it could ever completely remove input from the builder from the equation if for no other reason than there will always be some folks who like things stiffer or noodlier or twitchier or [fill in your characteristic of choice here] than most.

[sworcester]

I wonder if some builders can chime in here, do the different manufacturers tubes, like chainstay different on either side or the head tube to top tube, create an issue with mating to the lugs?
I have had a few Serotta steel bikes and loved them.

[velotrack]

It feels silly to have one preselected group of tubes and saying it's the "best" - because it definitely won't be the best for everybody. It's up to the experienced framebuilder to assess the strength/flexibility/experience/body of the rider and pick a set of tubes, or mix and match, based on that. Not to mention a great tubeset means nothing without proper fit, geometry, etc. Cool article though and it's undoubtedly good that this much thought is being put to steel frames.

[David Kirk]

There's two things here that I have to say I just don't get -

1) the article picks a 'best' tubeset. Is this 'best' for everyone regardless of size and weight? I just don't see how one set of tubes can be best for everyone even if the set is made up of the so-called 'best' tubes available regardless of brand.

2) On the far flip side I also don't get how any builder worth their salt can build bike after bike using the same stock tubeset (regardless of brand) with the idea that this set of tubes is best for the rider. Could the stock tubeset one pulls from the box be ideal for one person? Of course. But for everyone? No way.

It just doesn't make sense. I feel strongly that one of the task the builder needs to do is evaluate the rider as best possible and then pick the tubes to suit the rider. Riders are so much different I just can't see how any one tubeset is the best - whether it be the brand X stock tubeset of be a mix and match from different brands and materials.

dave

[Rudy]

My Ellis is a mutt. Dave Wages chose each tube. And nailed it.

[benito]

tange ultra strong DS chain stay?

intrigueing premise... but yes: best for whom. the computer?

i hope that computer is fat like me.

[marciero]

What might be of interest here is the technique used to do the modelling, or rather, how the technique is applied to bike design. From the title, "Parametric finite element analysis..." it appears to be an application of standard engineering techniques. The language "best" and "highest performing" in the article was written by the Cycling Weekly writer, not the engineers. As some here have pointed out, it depends on how you measure "best", etc. "Optimal based on this metric" would better describe. I'm sure that whatever metric they used can be changed in the algorithm. That's the whole idea of software. It seems they used a rather simple metric based on vertical and lateral stiffness. But that doesn't mean you could'nt use more nuanced metrics that were based on rider preferences. That's where the bike designer would come in. Defining those metrics is a completely different question though.

Another thing is that the algorithm apparently just ran a case-by-case simulation using all different combinations of existing available tubes. What would be great is if tube diameter and wall thickness were the "parameters" in the title, with the algorithm determining which tube profiles were optimal with respect to a user-defined metric. Maybe this is in fact the case, since you would think you input those parameters since they determine the mechanical properties that the algorithm is based on. You would think you could run simulations based on profiles for tubes that are not currently available.

[paredown]

It would be great to read the conference paper for details.

Anyone going--Barcelona is fabulous in the fall!

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

Steel is real, baby!

Hell yeah. Have 5, on the hunt for number 6. Have ti, carbon etc., always go back to steel.

[oldpotatoe]

Still relevant

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/new-research-unlocks-secrets-of-steel-tubing-189907

I think the 'study' is kinda silly but my take-away is that in spite of the 3 other frame material 'revolutions', aluminum, titanium and now carbon, carbon, everywhere..the steel bike tubing makers have not been sitting on their hands. Modern steel tubesets into bike frames are still the best combo of what you are looking for in a bike frame, IMHO.

Also interesting it seems this steel(and titanium) renaissance is centered in the US. I have a friend in the Netherlands and he is having a real hard time finding anybody decent, fairly close, who will build him a steel frame like he wants.

Probably gonna get a Waterford or Gunnar.

[weisan]

Modern steel tubesets into bike frames are still the best combo of what you are looking for in a bike frame, IMHO.
...
Tell that to the Carbon/Ti crowd...:rolleyes:
BTW, I agree.

I have a friend in the Netherlands and he is having a real hard time finding anybody decent, fairly close, who will build him a steel frame like he wants.


Maybe this guy can.
https://vimeo.com/133432406

That's really hard to imagine...we talkin' about a country that has more bikes than cars. I am not doubting his words but maybe he's not looking at the right places...what about the rest of EU, that got to be closer than US?

[oldpotatoe]

Tell that to the Carbon/Ti crowd...:rolleyes:
BTW, I agree.



Maybe this guy can.
https://vimeo.com/133432406

That's really hard to imagine...we talkin' about a country that has more bikes than cars. I am not doubting his words but maybe he's not looking at the right places...what about the rest of EU, that got to be closer than US?

He wants a race oriented steel frame. He's looked at RIH and another German manufacturer but they seem so hesitant to do what he wants.
Carbon? easy..trekspecializedgiantcannondale.....Batavus and Gazelle..long time Dutch brands...that just do 'Dutchies'...

[velomonkey]

All I got to say is that on my Ti bike everything rides fine and as expected. No surprises.

On my carbon bike, which rides like most any other non-lugged carbon bike, my right arm falls asleep on every ride and sometimes my foot, too. I've done the measurement thing a million times, it's not the setup. It's the feedback from the rest of the bike (both bikes have the same deda cockpit).

[CaptStash]

My Ellis is a mutt. Dave Wages chose each tube. And nailed it.

Wouldn't the bike last longer if he had welded it instead of using nails? :banana::banana:

[oldpotatoe]

All I got to say is that on my Ti bike everything rides fine and as expected. No surprises.

On my carbon bike, which rides like most any other non-lugged carbon bike, my right arm falls asleep on every ride and sometimes my foot, too. I've done the measurement thing a million times, it's not the setup. It's the feedback from the rest of the bike (both bikes have the same deda cockpit).

Not sure you've seen my post but my Moots put my hands to sleep every ride. Wasn't fit...asked the big boy at Moots, 'what am I to do???', he said put a steel fork on it.....I did and adios numb hands...OMG it's heavy tho...;)

[happycampyer]

I think the 'study' is kinda silly but my take-away is that in spite of the 3 other frame material 'revolutions', aluminum, titanium and now carbon, carbon, everywhere..the steel bike tubing makers have not been sitting on their hands. Modern steel tubesets into bike frames are still the best combo of what you are looking for in a bike frame, IMHO.

Also interesting it seems this steel(and titanium) renaissance is centered in the US. I have a friend in the Netherlands and he is having a real hard time finding anybody decent, fairly close, who will build him a steel frame like he wants.

Probably gonna get a Waterford or Gunnar.Jeager isn't that far from your friend. Their frames are beautiful and ride superbly, even if the tubes weren't selected by a computer optimization program. ;)

[weisan]

...OMG it's heavy tho...;)

funny, I was thinking about the same thing yesterday about my 32h H Plus Son wheels during the group ride...bombproof, yes...weight wennie, nope.

[martl]

Wouldn't the bike last longer if he had welded it instead of using nails? :banana::banana:

Richard Sachs nails it, too

http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/builders/richard-sachs2.jpg

[na3s]

Very cool read!