(dumb) 11 sp Campy hub / cassette question

[harryblack]

Colleauges-- I'm helping a friend with Campy conversion but I'm having a suprising problem with the largest cog of his cassette of rubbing again the hub body...

I have in hand--

* a late '00s Neutron rear wheel, date is guesstimate but it's not the Ultra and it does have orange legal warning stickers, which I presume put it later in the decade. Person friend bought it from said they got '09/'10 so even if new old stock... unlikely to be that old.

* cassette is Chorus 12-27, the spider of the 27 is dished slightly inwards.

I also have at hand a Mavic Kyrium Elite with Campy hub; for the same 12-27, this utilizes a thin washer/spacer between the (crappy) hub and the cassette... The cassette mounts fine, seems the same amount of room or nearly so between the 12 and lockring.

Thing is, I can't find any reference to needing a similar spacer for the Campy hubs but I ** do ** see comment some late '90s 9-speed hubs couldn't take 11 sp?

I'm not at home btw or else I'd slap a 10 sp cassette on just to check.

Thanks for any suggestions & I accept all due mockery re: my dopiness on this!

Note: cassette assembly etc is definitely correct, the issue is almost certainly between that 27 & the hub / freewheel.

[lhuerta]

All Neutron wheels have 9-10-11 speed freehubs. No spacer required on any Camagnolo cassettes run on Campy freehubs. I run 12-27 11-speed cassettes on two sets of Neutrons w/out a problem. Not clear what u mean by dish on 27 cog? can u post pics of cassette mounted to see where it runs on hub body?

[harryblack]

thanks, lhuerta. see attached pictures of Neutron hub & cassette + both wheels.

i'm a pretty good mechanic, the 'x' factor here is Campy wheel & 11 sp cassette... which shouldn't be issue at all!

the Neutron hub seems fine; held in hand or put in frame w/ cassette, it spins & spins wonderfully, as expected.

playing around, however, even w/ just hand presure on assembly of three largest cogs, it feels like something is just slightly catching... hub still spins but not w/o that catch, which is much more noticable with lockring on.

the 27 cog itself doesn't appear bent, looks & functions fine on the Ksyrium.

googling around the issue seems to resemble what some people experienced with Nucleon & other hubs in the early 11 sp era but that shouldn't be an issue with these.

If anyone sees this & has various Neutrons, the 'warning' stick I refer to is 'WARNING: Rims wear out with use" etc, next to the Symmetric, Asymmetric stickers on f / r wheel respectively.

Thanks again!

[kramnnim]

I had to Dremel some grooves into the back of the cassette when I had this issue on a different hub.

[oldpotatoe]

Colleauges-- I'm helping a friend with Campy conversion but I'm having a suprising problem with the largest cog of his cassette of rubbing again the hub body...

I have in hand--

* a late '00s Neutron rear wheel, date is guesstimate but it's not the Ultra and it does have orange legal warning stickers, which I presume put it later in the decade. Person friend bought it from said they got '09/'10 so even if new old stock... unlikely to be that old.

* cassette is Chorus 12-27, the spider of the 27 is dished slightly inwards.

I also have at hand a Mavic Kyrium Elite with Campy hub; for the same 12-27, this utilizes a thin washer/spacer between the (crappy) hub and the cassette... The cassette mounts fine, seems the same amount of room or nearly so between the 12 and lockring.

Thing is, I can't find any reference to needing a similar spacer for the Campy hubs but I ** do ** see comment some late '90s 9-speed hubs couldn't take 11 sp?

I'm not at home btw or else I'd slap a 10 sp cassette on just to check.

Thanks for any suggestions & I accept all due mockery re: my dopiness on this!

Note: cassette assembly etc is definitely correct, the issue is almost certainly between that 27 & the hub / freewheel.

Yes, 'some' early 'HPW' 10s wheels/hubs have this issue(2000 or so, like yours). A 1mm spacer 'should' fix the problem.

[harryblack]

thanks OP. I went to a local shop, got 1 mm spacer & ...

1) no rub!

2) no 11 speed, i.e. it perfectly fits 10 of the 11 cogs, but without that bit of overhang to fit 12T + lockring. (I tested it by just leaving out the 13T.)

friend was under the impression these were late 00s Neutrons, maybe even 2010 but perhaps they're actually a decade older in very good condition? ($200 used.) When did the Symmetric Front, Asymmetric Reer lingo start, from the beginning?

Such a silly & unexpected hangup.

p/s-- I do think a thinner spacer, similar to the Mavic (which doesn't fit the Campy, oddly enough) might still work but it'd be real close in terms fitting last cog on there.

[harryblack]

"crazy" thought: could this be a Nucleon hub on a Neutron (labeled) rim? This photo of a Nucleon looks to be same the as the 'Neutron' at hand--

http://www.bike-exclusiv.de/ebay-bilder/NUCLEON_HR-NABE_00C.jpg

[wasfast]

Note in the picture above of the backside of the large cog on the cassette. The center portion is stepped back. 10spd has no such step. Depending on the freehub, this may allow the cassette to sit closer to the spokes.

[oldpotatoe]

thanks OP. I went to a local shop, got 1 mm spacer & ...

1) no rub!

2) no 11 speed, i.e. it perfectly fits 10 of the 11 cogs, but without that bit of overhang to fit 12T + lockring. (I tested it by just leaving out the 13T.)

friend was under the impression these were late 00s Neutrons, maybe even 2010 but perhaps they're actually a decade older in very good condition? ($200 used.) When did the Symmetric Front, Asymmetric Reer lingo start, from the beginning?

Such a silly & unexpected hangup.

p/s-- I do think a thinner spacer, similar to the Mavic (which doesn't fit the Campy, oddly enough) might still work but it'd be real close in terms fitting last cog on there.

Not 2010 since 11s came out in 2009...HPW shaped hub body, 2000/2001 esque.

[harryblack]

thanks again, ya'll... what i've further learned (sans caliper) is the spacer i got this morning was 1mm... the Mavic (that's a smidgen too small to fit Campy hub) is .55mm... and Zipp makes one .25mm... might give that a shot, otherwise these will get passed on to a 10 sp loyalist... I was really flustered and somewhat embarrassed, having positioned myself the (relative) Campy "expert".

friend says for $200, it's not worth "arguing" with the original seller who claimed they were '09/'10, he probably thought they were but since he ran 10 sp Record, he didn't know otherwise & he didn't bring cassette to check there, based on the assumption all 9/10 Campy hubs played nice with 11 also.

oddly, someone on UK ebay posted about this issue four years ago--

http://www.ebay.com/gds/Campagnolo-Nucleon-vs-Neutron-Wheels-with-11-Speed-/10000000024084469/g.html

OP, I've personally been snooping for 32 h silver Centaur or Athena hubs, if I ever get 'em, I'll def. get in touch & send 'em your way to come back wheels.

[oliver1850]

2001 Nucleon had silver spokes, but I guess they could have been replaced. Front wheel matches rear?

Neutron replaced Nucleon in 2002 and had black spokes.

2004 Neutron had milled rim surface between spokes.

Perhaps Peter can elaborate on the HPW hub. They were still using that designation at least through 2006.

[harryblack]

oliver-- matching black rims w/ black spokes, yes plus gray plastic Campy rim tapes (no idea how old) plus--

- Neutron & the modern Campagnolo stickers in white
- a/symmetric stickers in red
- aluminum alloy etrto 622 x 15c stickers in white
- WARNING "Rims wear out..." sticker in black, white, orange

presuming the rear not a rebuild but unsure...

i'm leaning towards original owner got sold new old stock & didn't know better? condition otherwise jibes with his estimate 3-4 years non-crash, non-race riding.

[lhuerta]

oddly, someone on UK ebay posted about this issue four years ago--

http://www.ebay.com/gds/Campagnolo-Nucleon-vs-Neutron-Wheels-with-11-Speed-/10000000024084469/g.html

harry, glad u got it sorted out and thanks for posting this info. I have owned about 7 sets of nucleon and neutron wheels since 2000 and did know that there was a difference in the freehubs (especially given Campagnolo's assurance that there is not)....certainly learned something new today. I still have fours sets in my quiver and a set of unlaced HPW hubs, running 10 speed on two of them and 11 speed on two others. I am curious now and will measure all five freehubs and let everyone know if I find a difference in my current N=5. Lou

PS-I think you can certainly delete the word "dumb" from this thread header

[harryblack]

thanks, lhuerta... and look what I just found, from back in 2009 OP ever vigilant on the case then too--

Problems with 11 speed cassette on Nucleons

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=67764

current plan is to acquire .25mm spacer & see what happens; I was able to pick up a .5mm but like the Ksyrium spacer, it's hair too small to fit Campy hub.