almost nothing seems to be what it looks

[ada@prorider.or]

seen the report of ridley frame´s on cylingnews nothing seems to be anymore what it looks
now i guess 98 % come´s from taiwan

only differant stickers

same workers

:hello: :hello:
:crap:

i only can hope serotta stays making there own frame´s

[Bill Bove]

Cees, yes a lot of carbon bikes com from Taiwan, but is that bad? I think not. The Taiwanese frame shops do a very good job at what they are asked to do. If ten mfrs. are spec'ing frames from say Martec than Martec is building ten times more than any one of their customers would have. Giving them the experience to do it well. It's all about what the name on the frame has asked the builder to do.

[ada@prorider.or]

Cees, yes a lot of carbon bikes com from Taiwan, but is that bad? I think not. The Taiwanese frame shops do a very good job at what they are asked to do. If ten mfrs. are spec'ing frames from say Martec than Martec is building ten times more than any one of their customers would have. Giving them the experience to do it well. It's all about what the name on the frame has asked the builder to do.
well let not discuss quality here becuase i seen really strange things in frame´s
also when they building it
why do you think they all painted ????????

did you find any frame shop in taiwan
i looked for it there i find none

its like russian titan
horrible polution in it
but still becuase it cheap people buy it
if you ask for a certain type of certification no body knows what you are talking about well they cannot meet it specs



i still have the stand point if you buy a product A
the compagny A must make it

in the end nobody knows any more whats going on
well that´s my 2 cents

[e-RICHIE]

i still have the stand point if you buy a product A
the compagny A must make it

in the end nobody knows any more whats going on
well that´s my 2 cents



agreed.
but these days, the company product is often intellectual
and/or virtual. some people have good ideas and can't
even find a hammer. that's why there is contracting
and subcontracting. it sounds like a woodie guthrie
song in the making, but it isn't atmo.

[Fixed]

bro fast food is called junk food by some people ,people kill them selfs eating it .
cheers

[stevep]

there are taiwanese companies that make great stuff.
all taiwanese companies are not the same.
therefore all taiwanese companies do not necessarily make great stuff.
huh? notes e-richie?
this is a poorly written tautology...but true.
some are real companies with real engineers and testing.
some just make something that looks like it might be good stuff.

[e-RICHIE]

huh? notes e-richie?

stevep proves he is no dummie.
i have my intellectual property made in taiwan
because that's where the hammer is atmo.

[sspielman]

I couldn't agree with Cees more on this. Not only does it apply to frames, but components as well....and especially forks (they are apparently components now)....

[e-RICHIE]

I couldn't agree with Cees more on this. Not only does it apply to frames, but components as well....and especially forks (they are apparently components now)....


unfortunately (or whatever), we live in an era in which "to make..." no
longer means what it once might have meant. we used to discuss this
on the vintage board all the time. many are unwilling to accept this,
but subcontracting has been part of the framebuilding "industry" forever.
to think that your classic mount was lovingly made by luigi gofigurini is
just pure fantasy in most cases. i cannot speak for the component end
of things, but, without subcontracting, nothing would have ever gotten built.

[Bill Bove]

Cees and e-RICHIE, you are two perfect guys to have this dicussion with. You both make your own stuff, stuff that is not just beyond good but stuff that can be called the example of what all such stuff should be. But you both have a long waiting list for a select few to buy your stuff. Ridley, Trek et all are in the business of selling stuff, lot's of stuff. You two have between you, what a couple of wives, a couple of ex-wives and a couple of dogs to feed. The big bike companies have lot's of people to feed. To them bikes have become a commodity, for you guys it's still art. It's like say Thom McAnn for shoes, good shoes, they keep your toes from getting all scuffed up by the sidewalk, Thom McAnn doesn't make them, may not have ever but they are still shoes that people can afford to wear. Than there are those guys down in Texas who make custom boots, they do the same thing, keep your bare feet off of the hot pavement. Cost a ton more and I'm sure that they are worth every penny too, but not everybody can have them and they can't MAKE enough for everybody to have them. Am I getting dilluted here? Anyway that's my take on it.

[cpg]

agreed.
but these days, the company product is often intellectual
and/or virtual. some people have good ideas and can't
even find a hammer. that's why there is contracting
and subcontracting. it sounds like a woodie guthrie
song in the making, but it isn't atmo.


True but your castings are made in Taiwan because nobody in this country will even consider making them. Taiwan is your only logical choice. What's Ridley's rationale. There aren't any builders where they're located? Or is it that Taiwan is where they can get the most frames at the lowest cost? Nothing wrong with that I guess but...

Curt

[manet]

taking a page from the brit's howtobethebestmayonnaisehumanintheworldteabook,
i have all my coffee grown in another country.

[ada@prorider.or]

as i seen my selve workers grinding carbon frame´s
with a grinding machine on structural parts this make´s my heart turn to see this
in my comments
well does not matter we paint it nobody will see it

the attitude stays the same

those people do not ride a bike them selve have no feelings with the product what so ever
and with carbon that is dangerous becuase they do not care
have no idea from a bike rider riding 100 km down a mountain and trust his bike

sorry that simply my feeling ,as i do not work only for the money i like what i am doing i cannot except this attitude
cees

[e-RICHIE]

True but your castings are made in Taiwan because nobody in this country will even consider making them. Taiwan is your only logical choice.
that choice is based on value.
i could pay 10-50 times more to have them
made here, i suppose. but over there, a cottage
industry exists that specializes in this very item
used for the very purpose i buy it for.
try getting that done here. it can be done for
money, but that would not get the vendor the
decades of experience that comes from the taiwanese
supplier. that fact has value to me.
What's Ridley's rationale. There aren't any builders where they're located? Or is it that Taiwan is where they can get the most frames at the lowest cost? Nothing wrong with that I guess but...

Curt
there aren't enough builders there and the supplier
gives them the best value. nobody really loses
as far as i can see. besides, ridley is a made-up
name and never had a heritage of making frames
in holland - at least past the first year's worth of
test market samples. iow, they are not deceiving
anyone atmo.

[jerk]

the jerk's ridley is fine. nothing special, but fast, light, stiff and straight. the jerk has far more of a problem with "artisinally" made bikes from right here in the usa designed by people who have no business designing race bikes.

jerk

[e-RICHIE]

the jerk's ridley is fine. nothing special, but fast, light, stiff and straight. the jerk has far more of a problem with "artisinally" made bikes from right here in the usa designed by people who have no business designing race bikes.

jerk

that certainly is an interesting tangent
to cees' original post. i wonder how he'd
feel if all the work was domestic, but on
a lower par.

[jerk]

that certainly is an interesting tangent
to cees' original post. i wonder how he'd
feel if all the work was domestic, but on
a lower par.


you and cees are not "the industry". apologies for re-stating what you have stated a million times before; but most bicycles and bicycle parts are made by people who's job is bicycles but whos' lives are not. it doesn't matter if they're white or asian or whatever. the guatamalans laying up carbon in wisconsin aren't using their paychecks for race entry fees with any more frequency than the chinese laying up carbon in the giant factory.

jerk

[Jeremy]

The highest quality is one value, but there are others. Price for instance. Without the enormous cost efficiency created by specialization, bicyles would be so expensive that only the very rich could afford them. Society in general, and high end bicycle manufacturers, in particular, benefit if more peolple ride bikes.

Jeremy

[e-RICHIE]

you and cees are not "the industry". apologies for re-stating what you have stated a million times before; but most bicycles and bicycle parts are made by people who's job is bicycles but whos' lives are not. it doesn't matter if they're white or asian or whatever. the guatamalans laying up carbon in wisconsin aren't using their paychecks for race entry fees with any more frequency than the chinese laying up carbon in the giant factory.

jerk

i agree.
cees can speak for himself, but i'll do it for him anyway, in binary no less -

01110111 01100101 00100000 01101100 01101001 01110110 01100101 00100000 01101111 01110101 01110100 01110011 01101001 01100100 01100101 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100101 00100000 01101100 01101001 01101110 01100101 01110011 00100000 01101111 01100110 00100000 01100011 01101111 01101101 01101101 01100101 01110010 01100011 01100101 00100000 01100001 01101110 01100100 00100000 01101001 01101110 01100100 01110101 01110011 01110100 01110010 01111001 00100000 01100001 01110011 00100000 01101001 01110100 00100111 01110011 00100000 01100011 01101111 01101110 01110110 01100101 01101110 01110100 01101001 01101111 01101110 01100001 01101100 01101100 01111001 00100000 01110100 01101000 01101111 01110101 01100111 01101000 01110100 00100000 01101111 01100110 00100000 01111001 01101111 00101110

my comments here are strictly conceptual and
general in nature. being that this is the forum
and all that, i certainly wouldn't deign to make
this a personal-slash-commercial issue atmo.

[stevep]

Without the enormous cost efficiency created by specialization, bicyles would be so expensive that only the very rich could afford them.

Jeremy

as the guy puts his $9,500 campy ottrott on the roof rack of his brand new 2006 toyota corolla that cost him $10,000.
some lack of proportion there, no?

the jerk notes that the car should be $500 less and the bike $500 more with better wheels.

[Bill Bove]

as the guy puts his $9,500 campy ottrott on the roof rack of his brand new 2006 toyota corolla that cost him $10,000.
some lack of proportion there, no?

the jerk notes that the car should be $500 less and the bike $500 more with better wheels.

(Tom(TommyGun) Mastersons theorum, "Your bike should cost five times what your car cost"

[Climb01742]

i rode my ridley in the pouring rain this morning. perfect tool for the occasion. it now stands covered in crud a few feet from my desk. on the ridley the crud doesn't bug me. i'd be considerably more mental if i had a crud covered time or ottrott or sachs or other fine machines. i happily rode the ridley this morning. bless the carbon folks in asia. they make good tools at a good price.

[Johny]

you and cees are not "the industry". apologies for re-stating what you have stated a million times before; but most bicycles and bicycle parts are made by people who's job is bicycles but whos' lives are not. it doesn't matter if they're white or asian or whatever. the guatamalans laying up carbon in wisconsin aren't using their paychecks for race entry fees with any more frequency than the chinese laying up carbon in the giant factory.

jerk

Jerk always got the right point.

Are most people doing their 9-5 job for the love of their profession?

[Bill Bove]

Talent v. Technology.

It takes a fair amount of talent to weld/braze a steel/aluminum frame. Talent costs money and as it becomes rarer it costs more. Can a company selling low cost Al frames afford that talent? To build a carbon frame you use technology. Some guy who knows what he's doing, we hope, designs the frame, specs the carbon to be used and the lay up. Some other guy who for all we know has never turned a pedal in anger lays up the speced carbon sheets in the proper mold and pushes the ON button on the computer and out pops an inexpensive carbon frame. Who do you want to trust? The lousy welder or the talented CAD/CAM guy?

Like how I slipped that liggitism in there?

[Jeremy]

as the guy puts his $9,500 campy ottrott on the roof rack of his brand new 2006 toyota corolla that cost him $10,000.
some lack of proportion there, no?

the jerk notes that the car should be $500 less and the bike $500 more with better wheels.


Good and humorous point. But, without the cost savings made possible by specialization, your Corolla might cost more than $100,000. Likewise, without specialization, the tools that Serotta and Campy need to buy to make their own products would be so expensive that your Ottrott might cost $50,000. Actually, it would be worse than that. We wouldn't have "Ottrots" or "Corollas" at all. We certainly wouldnt have the technology to create this wonfderful forum either.

Jeremy

[sspielman]

unfortunately (or whatever), we live in an era in which "to make..." no
longer means what it once might have meant. we used to discuss this
on the vintage board all the time. many are unwilling to accept this,
but subcontracting has been part of the framebuilding "industry" forever.
to think that your classic mount was lovingly made by luigi gofigurini is
just pure fantasy in most cases. i cannot speak for the component end
of things, but, without subcontracting, nothing would have ever gotten built.

Speaking of component subcontracting.....I had heard that Gipiemme had made ALOT of stuff for Campagnolo over the years......especially hardware. So, back in 1985 when I graduated from college, I wisely "invested" some graduation money in a nice new Italian racing bike. It was going to be equipped with Campagnolo Super Record. I should note that all of the components for the bike were new and the boxes were sealed...to the best of my knowledge since they had left Vicenza. While examining the crankset, I noticed that one chainring bolt was labelled "Gipiemme" instead of "Campagnolo"....whoops! I mentioned this story once on the CR list and got FLAMED by a guy who chastised me for spreading rumour and innuendo ( he ended up getting thrown off the list for something else)....the flaming was severe enough for not only me but the Roy Munsons and the Kingston Trio as well

[e-RICHIE]

I mentioned this story once on the CR list and got FLAMED by a guy who chastised me for spreading rumour and innuendo...

there's a group that has the inside track atmo.

[fiamme red]

Speaking of component subcontracting.....I had heard that Gipiemme had made ALOT of stuff for Campagnolo over the years......especially hardware. So, back in 1985 when I graduated from college, I wisely "invested" some graduation money in a nice new Italian racing bike. It was going to be equipped with Campagnolo Super Record. I should note that all of the components for the bike were new and the boxes were sealed...to the best of my knowledge since they had left Vicenza. While examining the crankset, I noticed that one chainring bolt was labelled "Gipiemme" instead of "Campagnolo"....whoops! I mentioned this story once on the CR list and got FLAMED by a guy who chastised me for spreading rumour and innuendo ( he ended up getting thrown off the list for something else)....the flaming was severe enough for not only me but the Roy Munsons and the Kingston Trio as wellDo you mean that K.D. flamed you off-list or on-list?

[sspielman]

Do you mean that K.D. flamed you off-list or on-list?


Both!!!! Hilarious.....

[ada@prorider.or]

Some guy who knows what he's doing, we hope, designs the frame, specs the carbon to be used and the lay up. Some other guy who for all we know has never turned a pedal in anger lays up the speced carbon sheets in the proper mold and pushes the ON button on the computer and out pops an inexpensive carbon frame. Who do you want to trust? The lousy welder or the talented CAD/CAM guy?

Like how I slipped that liggitism in there?

if it only could be that way that you only had to push a button and you had a carbon frame then it all would be solved

i give you one thing most carbon frame´s made with prepreq that means already in pregnated carbon weave with resin, this prepreq has 2 side´s with is important for the resin flow

i bet that hardly any chinese or taiwanese looks at it or even if he tought to do so 90% goes wrong

this is a simple example


but anyway people are free to buy what they want no problem its good that way but it should be clear for evryone

so not as a example conalgo or merxckx sticker made in italia or belgium but made in taiwan
and assembled in italia or belgium!!!!!!!!



and price wise
we are cheaper then any campy or any taiwanese
with the same carbon or alu or titan
so not compare apple´s and pears
cees

[Fixed]

unfortunately (or whatever), we live in an era in which "to make..." no
longer means what it once might have meant. we used to discuss this
on the vintage board all the time. many are unwilling to accept this,
but subcontracting has been part of the framebuilding "industry" forever.
to think that your classic mount was lovingly made by luigi gofigurini is
just pure fantasy in most cases. i cannot speak for the component end
of things, but, without subcontracting, nothing would have ever gotten built.
bro as long as you keep turning out wonderful frames i don't care if they come from the moon ...i know you still take pride in the frames that have your name on them .. i.m.h.o.
cheers

[e-RICHIE]

i don't care if they come from the moon ...


i'm out of the shop right now on a cheese
run but leave a message and someone
will get back to you shortly atmo -

[zeroking17]

<snip>
i have my intellectual property made in taiwan
because that's where the hammer is atmo.

The man knows whereof he speaks.

http://www.flahute.com/2006/04/richard_sachs_moves_production.html


.

[Jeremy]

"i still have the stand point if you buy a product A
the compagny A must make it."

Cees,

I believe that you use computer modeling in your business. If we applied the above standard to the computer industry, it would not exist. As a result, your job would probably not exist either. Just a thought.

Jeremy

[cpg]

the jerk's ridley is fine. nothing special, but fast, light, stiff and straight. the jerk has far more of a problem with "artisinally" made bikes from right here in the usa designed by people who have no business designing race bikes.

jerk

To whom do you refer? Ridley's are "designed" by whom? Would anyone buy one if they didn't give away some bikes to pro teams? Were Ridley's "raceworthy" BEFORE anyone had heard of them or did that happen after they gave away their bikes via sponsorship?

Curt

[e-RICHIE]

To whom do you refer? Ridley's are "designed" by whom? Would anyone buy one if they didn't give away some bikes to pro teams? Were Ridley's "raceworthy" BEFORE anyone had heard of them or did that happen after they gave away their bikes via sponsorship?

Curt

yeah -
ridleys were kind of a cool cult-like 'cross frame
before they barged onto the road scene. they have
a good history and following long before mckewn
started winning for them. zmatta fact - they displaced
empella as the must-have frame among the 'cross
cogniscenti, and that was no easy task.
however, like cervelo and that ilk, they sought growth,
and like many have done, they sourced their frames
from asia atmo.

[93legendti]

"i still have the stand point if you buy a product A
the compagny A must make it."

Cees,

I believe that you use computer modeling in your business. If we applied the above standard to the computer industry, it would not exist. As a result, your job would probably not exist either. Just a thought.

Jeremy

Ditto for cars.

[jerk]

To whom do you refer? Ridley's are "designed" by whom? Would anyone buy one if they didn't give away some bikes to pro teams? Were Ridley's "raceworthy" BEFORE anyone had heard of them or did that happen after they gave away their bikes via sponsorship?

Curt

yes they were race worthy. yes they are race worthy. the brand was never concieved of as anything other than a race bike company. the frame construction was always outsourced. the scandiums are still made in belgium but nothing is "made" in the giant ridley office/painshop/warehouse in belgium.

those guys are heavily involved in the belgian race scene and have been for a while. they know race bikes.

jerk

[ada@prorider.or]

"i still have the stand point if you buy a product A
the compagny A must make it."

Cees,

I believe that you use computer modeling in your business. If we applied the above standard to the computer industry, it would not exist. As a result, your job would probably not exist either. Just a thought.

Jeremy

as i said nothing is anymore what it seems to be!!!


even man transfered to women and women become man
look in thailand

[stevep]

cad- cam bike design is a fraud. the loads are too complex. not simple like an airplane.
the test only tests what it is designed to test... not necessarily the real world. it tests what some knucklehead programs in.

example #1.
i am talking to a guy in a shop who points out that brand "c" bikes test way better than any regular steel bike in the cad-cam design tests... " these bikes test 5 times stronger, blah, blah, blah "... meanwhile he is on his 4th frame in 5 years....cause they keep cracking.

sitting ( ironically ) in the corner is a 25 years old richard sachs frame that this same guy raced on for 10 years, has continued to ride for 15 more and will possibly get another 10 years out of... and the bike is still perfect.

conclusion: the "tests way better" bike is in reality way worse... yes, it is lighter but these simple minded cad/ cam tests reflect nothing.

engineers. please fire away.

[e-RICHIE]

even man transfered to women and women become man
look in thailand



save the frequent flier miles, davis -
that shet happens in san francisco atmo.

[e-RICHIE]

cad- cam bike design is a fraud. the loads are too complex. not simple like an airplane.
the test only tests what it is designed to test... not necessarily the real world. it tests what some knucklehead programs in.

example #1.
i am talking to a guy in a shop who points out that brand "c" bikes test way better than any regular steel bike in the cad-cam design tests... " these bikes test 5 times stronger, blah, blah, blah "... meanwhile he is on his 4th frame in 5 years....cause they keep cracking.

sitting ( ironically ) in the corner is a 25 years old richard sachs frame that this same guy raced on for 10 years, has continued to ride for 15 more and will possibly get another 10 years out of... and the bike is still perfect.

conclusion: the "tests way better" bike is in reality way worse... yes, it is lighter but these simple minded cad/ cam tests reflect nothing.

engineers. please fire away.

nothing's firing.
you must be correct -

[ada@prorider.or]

cad-cam design tests... .
what is a cad cam test
i do not understand
cad=computer aided design
cam=computer aided manufacturing

in wich both i have a degree by the way
well 0 degree

but what is cad-cam test??????????

[e-RICHIE]

what is a cad cam test
i do not understand
but what is cad-cam test??????????

i think it's an english - oh, sorry - british thing,
where they take pictures of you eating that rancid
stuff they pass off as chocolate atmo.

[Jeremy]

as i said nothing is anymore what it seems to be!!!


even man transfered to women and women become man
look in thailand


Sorry Cees I don't get it.

Jeremy

[Brian Smith]

Can't you see this is the land of confusion?



And not enough love to go around...

[zeroking17]

Sorry Cees I don't get it.

Jeremy


He's referring either to trans-sexuals or to trans-ams (I get the two mixed up).

...

[ada@prorider.or]

Sorry Cees I don't get it.

Jeremy

well i some case´s you look in a bar hey that a nice lady

in the end seems to be a man

also that happens nice guy you think
then its women

both transferred to the other sex
well if you look in thailand you see alot
also in amsterdam

i hope i am clear now>?

[zeroking17]

Can't you see this is the land of confusion?
And not enough love to go around...


Who knew that Bruno Sammartino was a fondue hobbyist.

..

[Jeremy]

He's referring either to trans-sexuals or to trans-ams (I get the two mixed up).

...

I get that, I don't get how it responds to his claim that "product A should be made by company A", or how it relates to my statements. Specialization is NECESSARY for any complex industry to exist. I was trying to point out that if the standards that Cees stated were actually followed, no complex technological progress would ever have been made.

Jeremy

[ada@prorider.or]

I get that, I don't get how it responds to his claim that "product A should be made by company A", or how it relates to my statements. Specialization is NECESSARY for any complex industry to exist. I was trying to point out that if the standards that Cees stated were actually followed, no complex technological progress would ever have been made.

Jeremy

no but it does too the claim ' nothing is anymore what it seems to be!'

[e-RICHIE]

well i some case´s you look in a bar hey that a nice lady

in the end seems to be a man

also that happens nice guy you think
then its women

both transferred to the other sex
well if you look in thailand you see alot
also in amsterdam

i hope i am clear now>?
The Kinks call that Lola.
Lo Lo Lo Lo La atmo -

[Big Dan]

The Kinks call that Lola.
Lo Lo Lo Lo La atmo -

Btw, one of the worst concerts..The Kinks, Ray Davies was a jacka$$. Dave Davies was great..... :beer:

[Jeremy]

no but it does too the claim ' nothing is anymore what it seems to be!'

ADA,

That statement I agree with. Almost nothing is what it appears to be.

Jeremy

[zeroking17]

The Kinks call that Lola.
Lo Lo Lo Lo La atmo -

Remember Tammy "Lola" Thomas?




...

[e-RICHIE]

Btw, one of the worst concerts..The Kinks, Ray Davies was a jacka$$. Dave Davies was great..... :beer:

heh -
have you ever seen the Roy E. Munsons live?
technicolor yawn imho.

[cpg]

yes they were race worthy. yes they are race worthy. the brand was never concieved of as anything other than a race bike company. the frame construction was always outsourced. the scandiums are still made in belgium but nothing is "made" in the giant ridley office/painshop/warehouse in belgium.

those guys are heavily involved in the belgian race scene and have been for a while. they know race bikes.

jerk

You still didn't answer my first question. Who is/are the US "artisan" builders that have no business building race bikes?

Curt

[jerk]

You still didn't answer my first question. Who is/are the US "artisan" builders that have no business building race bikes?

Curt


not you and not the hosts of this forum. let's put it that way. you've seen'em....mad painful bikes without workable geometries....failed attempts to sell "cool" to the tattoo crew; mnt bike people making road bikes...boat people making road bikes....airplane people making road bikes....etc.etc.

jerk

[stevep]

keep digging, jerk, that hole is so deep that you are almost through to china..when you get there maybe you can pick up a frame at oe price.

[fiamme red]

boat people making road bikes....airplane people making road bikes....etc.etc.Yup. I know at least 20 of each.

[e-RICHIE]

keep digging, jerk, that hole is so deep that you are almost through to china..when you get there maybe you can pick up a frame at oe price.

stevep working both sides of the room atmo!!

[Louis]

cad- cam bike design is a fraud. the loads are too complex. not simple like an airplane.

Whatcha been smoking bro?

I've seen lots of weird things on this board. Without a doubt this tops the list. I can only assume that it was written in jest.

Louis

[Dr. Doofus]

not you and not the hosts of this forum. let's put it that way. you've seen'em....mad painful bikes without workable geometries....failed attempts to sell "cool" to the tattoo crew;...boat people making road bikes...

jerk

yer makin me all blue

[e-RICHIE]

it's like freekin' kismet atmo - (http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=tech/2006/features/ridley)

[stevep]

Whatcha been smoking bro?

I've seen lots of weird things on this board. Without a doubt this tops the list. I can only assume that it was written in jest.

Louis


no, airplane is simple.
needs this big an engine to carry this big a load. wings need to be this strong to carry this much weight. the airframe weighs 100,000 pounds and can carry 20,000 pounds.
its easy. you can look it up.
a bicycle. imagine a 2 pound structure that has to support a 195 pound ( or more ) man who is thrashing it around in a race sprint.
holy mackaral. no airplane comes within a country mile of ths load. no way.
this thing is supporting 100 times its weight and successfully doing it for many years oftentimes.
think about it.
thats why these things are cool.

[JohnS]

I think someone may be forgetting g-forces here, which no cyclist has to worry about.

[ada@prorider.or]

I think someone may be forgetting g-forces here, which no cyclist has to worry about.

well i do evrytime i go up a hill
i very much notice the g force pulling me down the mountain again
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:confused:

[Brian Smith]

no, airplane is simple.
needs this big an engine to carry this big a load. wings need to be this strong to carry this much weight. the airframe weighs 100,000 pounds and can carry 20,000 pounds.
its easy. you can look it up.
a bicycle. imagine a 2 pound structure that has to support a 195 pound ( or more ) man who is thrashing it around in a race sprint.
holy mackaral. no airplane comes within a country mile of ths load. no way.
this thing is supporting 100 times its weight and successfully doing it for many years oftentimes.
think about it.
thats why these things are cool.

When I was 13 or so, I thought that GT must be such a technologically advanced design and manufacturing entity that maybe Boeing ought to arrange a tour....

The bicycle is a really wonderful and amazing invention, maybe one of humankind's best, but there is positively less modern day design effort and expenditure in bicycles than there is in aircraft. Not only is there more to lose in aircraft by failing to do so, there is also more to gain by doing it.

[Louis]

thats why these things are cool.

Steve,

I agree, bikes are some of the coolest things out there, and the world would likely be a better place if everybody used them the way we do. (Although I imagine that most subsets of society think that if the world were more like them it would be a better place, but for cycling, I think we could prove it empirically.)

However relative to your comparison of bikes to aircraft, I don’t even know where to start, so I’ll just say two things that I think cover both ends of the aeronautical spectrum:

1) I think Bryan Allen would probably agree with me.
2) Come back when you have a bike that has a thrust to weight ratio greater than one, then we’ll talk.

Louis

[coylifut]

unfortunately (or whatever), we live in an era in which "to make..." no
longer means what it once might have meant. we used to discuss this
on the vintage board all the time. many are unwilling to accept this,
but subcontracting has been part of the framebuilding "industry" forever.
to think that your classic mount was lovingly made by luigi gofigurini is
just pure fantasy in most cases. i cannot speak for the component end
of things, but, without subcontracting, nothing would have ever gotten built.

Uncle Luigi is going to haunt you for that one. But seriously y'all remember the video floating around of the De Rosa being glued together.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=11931&highlight=derosa+video



Does it really matter if the guy hitting the fumes is named Luigi or Lee? I can here the conversation now.

Ridley guy - "my Ridley rocks, it corners like it's on rails, climbs like a goat, stiff yet compliant.

DeRosa guy - mine does all of that and it was lovingly glued together by Luigi DeRosa favorite grand son of Ugo DeRosa. Mine's got soul. What's your's got."

[stevep]

Steve,

However relative to your comparison of bikes to aircraft, I don’t even know where to start, so I’ll just say two things that I think cover both ends of the aeronautical spectrum:

1) I think Bryan Allen would probably agree with me.
2) Come back when you have a bike that has a thrust to weight ratio greater than one, then we’ll talk.

Louis

quote from e-richie...
"any idiot can build an airplane...all you do is stick the wings on the side and let it fly...it takes a true craftsman to build a bike..."
remember the bike frame successfully supports over 100 times its weight! no plane comes close.
having said that i will still take a plane to italy this summer as a fully enclosed ocean going bike is not yet available. richie? when will this be ready?

[William]

i think it's an english - oh, sorry - british thing,
where they take pictures of you eating that rancid
stuff they pass off as chocolate atmo.

Fried Mars Bars.



William

[William]

Wait,

does all this mean that Ben doesn't really build all Serotta's himself??????? :confused:

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
:crap:


William ;)

[William]

I deal with a lot of product that comes out of the APAC theater. I also know two other company owners who do as well. One thing that we all agree on is that it's a constant battle getting consistent quality in the goods received. Some companies do better then others, but it's not to the point where you can let goods go through without checking entire shipments. QA/QC is an area where a lot of work is needed. Goods with ridiculously obvious flaws get through. Things that applying simple QC checks should catch. Short of setting up & managing your own company there, many times you will have low prices with high rejection rates. I can't specifically say this applies to the bike industry that imports parts/frames and such, but my experience across a range of products would indicate that it's a similar scenario. atmo


William

[classic1]

I think someone may be forgetting g-forces here, which no cyclist has to worry about.

I know one or two former six day riders who might care to argue that point :)

[JohnS]

I know one or two former six day riders who might care to argue that point :)I KNEW someone would bring up trackbikes. Their g-forces don't compare to a F-16's.

[e-RICHIE]

I KNEW someone would bring up trackbikes. Their g-forces don't compare to a F-16's.


the difference is only 3mm so i say they do compare atmo

[stevep]

I KNEW someone would bring up trackbikes. Their g-forces don't compare to a F-16's.

once again, though, an f-16 weighs , oh, i dont know... 200,000 pounds? and the payload is one pilot who weighs flippin 175 pounds...
thats easy... anybody could build that thing ...its like building a 5 pound breadbox to hold an m&m.

im talking about the same guy on a 2 pound structure...bombing down the col de izoard at 55mp... undeniable...
far superior engineering and design.

[manet]

the difference is only 3mm so i say they do compare atmo

and f-16s have TAIL

[e-RICHIE]

and f-16s have TAIL
sinatra would pick the track bike rather than fly atmo

[saab2000]

once again, though, an f-16 weighs , oh, i dont know... 200,000 pounds? and the payload is one pilot who weighs flippin 175 pounds...
thats easy... anybody could build that thing ...its like building a 5 pound breadbox to hold an m&m.



Riiiiiiiiight..................... :rolleyes:

[manet]

sinatra would pick the track bike rather than fly atmo

1. .... stating the obvious.

2. gander a guess at francis' thought on cross?

3. http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.pjharvey.net/images/4track_s.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.pjharvey.net/lyrics/demos_mbike.html&h=131&w=115&sz=8&tbnid=KYdLwm_T1ADalM:&tbnh=86&tbnw=75&hl=en&start=61&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dgirl%2Bon%2Btrack%2Bbike%26start%3D60 %26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN

[JohnS]

F16C/D: empty weight 18,000lbs. Max takeoff weight 42,000lbs. Besides 8-9g's, airframes have wider temperature extremes that they have to deal with, as well as forces from more directions than a bike. When you add in having to endure battle damage that would obliterate a bike...no contest. Someone needs to have stevep pee in a cup and get it tested.

[e-RICHIE]

Someone needs to have stevep pee in a cup and get it tested.

how craig's list is that atmo?

[davids]

it's like freekin' kismet atmo - (http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=tech/2006/features/ridley)
This goes hand in hand with the ProCycling piece on Ridley in their last Framebuilder's Guide. "Framebuilders"? Ridley is a framepainter, at best.

The bikes' geos may work just fine, but all I see Ridley bringing to the table is some fancy paint and their ProTour sponsorship. They're commodities, bro, atmo.

I'm of two minds about this. For most people, what Ridley's selling is enough. And they're better bikes than the shet the jerk's talking about. But to talk about Ridley as a "framebuilder" in the company of Bianchi, Time, Orbea, Trek, IF, and Serotta? wft? That's putting paint-by-numbers next to di Chirico.

[catulle]

:confused:

[coylifut]

This goes hand in hand with the ProCycling piece on Ridley in their last Framebuilder's Guide. "Framebuilders"? Ridley is a framepainter, at best.

The bikes' geos may work just fine, but all I see Ridley bringing to the table is some fancy paint and their ProTour sponsorship. They're commodities, bro, atmo.

I'm of two minds about this. For most people, what Ridley's selling is enough. And they're better bikes than the shet the jerk's talking about. But to talk about Ridley as a "framebuilder" in the company of Bianchi, Time, Orbea, Trek, IF, and Serotta? wft? That's putting paint-by-numbers next to di Chirico.

you're right. Ridley is a bicycle marketer and produces a commodity like Giant. Bianchi, and to a smaller extent Colnago is headed that way also. Should Trek be held in higher regard because their bikes are layed up in Waterloo? Does the Trek Madone work any better than the TCR? The only real differentiation is in the "branding."

Typical mature market stuff atmo

[cpg]

not you and not the hosts of this forum. let's put it that way. you've seen'em....mad painful bikes without workable geometries....failed attempts to sell "cool" to the tattoo crew; mnt bike people making road bikes...boat people making road bikes....airplane people making road bikes....etc.etc.

jerk

Ah. Si!

Curt

[davids]

you're right. Ridley is a bicycle marketer and produces a commodity like Giant. Bianchi, and to a smaller extent Colnago is headed that way also. Should Trek be held in higher regard because their bikes are layed up in Waterloo? Does the Trek Madone work any better than the TCR? The only real differentiation is in the "branding."

Typical mature market stuff atmo
Good question. I think of Trek as doing more in terms of materials, testing, and design. But I don't know that I've got any real evidence that that's so.

[e-RICHIE]

Good question. I think of Trek as doing more in terms of materials, testing, and design. But I don't know that I've got any real evidence that that's so.


that doesn't matter -
this is the internet atmo.

[davids]

that doesn't matter -
this is the internet atmo.
Can you cite your sources?

[Vancouverdave]

1. Taiwanese quality is, generally, at least as good and on some items superior to European--look at the steerer clamp on a Ritchey stem vs. say, a Deda. The Italian item looks ready to chew through a carbon steerer at a moment's notice.
2. If China ever decides to "reclaim" it's feistily independent island, look for a whole lot of new "American" manufacturing as Taiwanese companies activate or in some cases (Kinesis, for instance) reactivate US based production shops. Many small Taiwanese companies could offshore themselves with a few mouse clicks and a planeload of key personnel. Vancouverdave fears no Taiwanese product!

[coylifut]

Good question. I think of Trek as doing more in terms of materials, testing, and design. But I don't know that I've got any real evidence that that's so.

that's where the branding comes in. the consumers perception is the reality. I couldn't tell you where the Cervelo is made. Maybe the same factory as the Ridley?

[classic1]

F16C/D: empty weight 18,000lbs. Max takeoff weight 42,000lbs. Besides 8-9g's, airframes have wider temperature extremes that they have to deal with, as well as forces from more directions than a bike. When you add in having to endure battle damage that would obliterate a bike...no contest. Someone needs to have stevep pee in a cup and get it tested.

8-9 G's. Pffftt. No way dude. I don't see no F16's belting around the 132m track at Maastricht or the 166m track at Gent. Track bikes pwn F16's there anyday of the week. Plus F16's would get cancer from all those Dutch and Belgian fans smoking. No track bike ever I ever saw got cancer.

[catulle]

sinatra would pick the track bike rather than fly atmo

Dr. Kaled says flying don´t come natural to homo sapiens, iirc, atmo. Sinatra was some smart homo sapiens, atmo. He´s got a plaque in 01110000 01110010 01101111 01110110 01101111.

[e-RICHIE]

Dr. Kaled says flying don´t come natural to homo sapiens, iirc, atmo. Sinatra was some smart homo sapiens, atmo. He´s got a plaque in 01110000 01110010 01101111 01110110 01101111.


01111001 01100001 00100111 00100000 01100111 01101111 01110100 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100001 01110100 00100000 01110010 01101001 01100111 01101000 01110100 00101100 00100000 01100010 01110101 01100010 01100010 01100001 00101110

[David Kirk]

Talk about thread drift...........

No one has voiced what I feel is a real concern about the outsourcing/"I wonder who made this" deal. It's a living wage or the lack thereof.

Folks like Serotta and a few select others actually pay thier people enough to pursue the American dream of home ownership and independence. They have good health care, clean air to breath and a safe work place.

When one buys a Ridley or whatever brand that is made in Taiwan they aren't giving thier hard earned money to the worker (or at least much of it) but they give it to the guys sitting in the well light, warm office with clean air and a box of donuts on the breakroom table.

I can't say what others should do but I personally like to think that I support businesses that take care of thier people the way I'd want to be taken care of.

Dave

[JohnS]

Talk about thread drift...........

No one has voiced what I feel is a real concern about the outsourcing/"I wonder who made this" deal. It's a living wage or the lack thereof.

Folks like Serotta and a few select others actually pay thier people enough to pursue the American dream of home ownership and independence. They have good health care, clean air to breath and a safe work place.

When one buys a Ridley or whatever brand that is made in Taiwan they aren't giving thier hard earned money to the worker (or at least much of it) but they give it to the guys sitting in the well light, warm office with clean air and a box of donuts on the breakroom table.

I can't say what others should do but I personally like to think that I support businesses that take care of thier people the way I'd want to be taken care of.

DaveIn 20 years everything is going to be outsourced. All that will be left is CEO's and serfs. There won't be any more middle class.

[e-RICHIE]

In 20 years everything is going to be outsourced. All that will be left is CEO's and serfs. There won't be any more middle class..

[catulle]

In 20 years everything is going to be outsourced. All that will be left is CEO's and serfs. There won't be any more middle class.

Nandosnozzi, Orwell 1984

[Johny]

Talk about thread drift...........

No one has voiced what I feel is a real concern about the outsourcing/"I wonder who made this" deal. It's a living wage or the lack thereof.

Folks like Serotta and a few select others actually pay thier people enough to pursue the American dream of home ownership and independence. They have good health care, clean air to breath and a safe work place.

When one buys a Ridley or whatever brand that is made in Taiwan they aren't giving thier hard earned money to the worker (or at least much of it) but they give it to the guys sitting in the well light, warm office with clean air and a box of donuts on the breakroom table.

I can't say what others should do but I personally like to think that I support businesses that take care of thier people the way I'd want to be taken care of.

Dave

Dave, good point. But I don't think most Taiwanese workers are making less than most Serotta employees if you consider living expense is relatively low in Taiwan. Health insurance there is provided by the government at very low cost to every citizen (which makes many of my M.D. friends unhappay as they don't make as much...but doctors still make a lof money there though).

Of course, "CEO's" and those "agents" who actually don't manufacture and are located in the US are always making much more money. in this regard, I do like better what Serotta has done.

Serotta does a good job but like every company, not every employee is happy if you saw the deleted Todd's thread a few days ago. :)

[David Kirk]

Dave, good point. But I don't think most Taiwanese workers are making less than most Serotta employees if you consider living expense is relatively low in Taiwan. Health insurance there is provided by the government at very low cost to every citizen (which makes many of my M.D. friends unhappay as they don't make as much...but doctors still make a lof money there though).

Of course, "CEO's" and those "agents" who actually don't manufacture and are located in the US are always making much more money. in this regard, I do like better what Serotta has done.

Serotta does a good job but like every company, not every employee is happy if you saw the deleted Todd's thread a few days ago. :)

Yo Johny,

That may be true what you say. I don't know enough about thier labor laws and employee protection to argue about it. My gut feeling is that the workers in the USA have it better than most.

You are right.......Serotta is not a nirvana. It's a good place to work that makes a strong effort to treat thier people well. I was there for 10 years and while most of it was a good expereince there were some very dark times that I'd rather forget. Nothing is perfect but they do try hard and that's all one can realistically expect.

Dave

[Grant McLean]

that's where the branding comes in. the consumers perception is the reality. I couldn't tell you where the Cervelo is made. Maybe the same factory as the Ridley?

Goes back to what E-Richie said. Define "made". The CAD program is in Toronto,
the factory in China, the testing in Europe... Is the manufacturing process
the important part? Or is the experience, design, testing, refining, all that.

The IT guy in my office and I know both know how to type, he just knows
which keys to push when my computer is broken.

g

[Johny]

Yo Johny,

That may be true what you say. I don't know enough about thier labor laws and employee protection to argue about it. My gut feeling is that the workers in the USA have it better than most.

Dave

Dave, I also believe that American workers have better lives. I really admire the American way in which all people including workers can pursue their dreams here. For decades, most American workers have enjoyed benefits, so on and do forth. However, I think that's changing due to globalization (guess who benefits most?). In this regard, this makes Serotta a even better company to work with.

My mom used to tell me if you don't wanna study, go get a job after high school. You see that's a culture thing: it's a bad option to be a worker in that society. I think this culture is changing and native Taiwansese workers are living better lives now...at least my worker brother-in-law who manufactures motorcycles does not complain too much. :)

John

[e-RICHIE]

Goes back to what E-Richie said. Define "made". <cut>

atmo - at the core this this discussion, in bicycle terms
at least, is that the companies that brand and/or outsource
do so because they cannot get it done "locally". and, believe
me, even if it could be done in the next county, there's be
someone to complain that it's "...not really being made by
the actual cat whose eponymous firm it is.
the ridleys, colnagos, and whatevers of the bicycle industry
supply tens of thousands of units to markets worldwide. it
is simply ludicrous to assume that any cottage industry,
ben & jerry type of company could fill that demand. the
problem only arises when you compare the product made by
line workers with the work done in the better ice cream parlors.

[Serotta PETE]

In 20 years everything is going to be outsourced. All that will be left is CEO's and serfs. There won't be any more middle class.

Challenge for the CEO's and their company - - "Who will be able to afford their products!!!" The "gulf" between the rich and poor has never been wider - and it is growing.

Example is DELPHI, who wants the workers to take huge pay cut, while many of the executives receive "retention" bonus and stock options. (are these not the same folks that helped get DELPHI is the shape they are in? WHO WILL BUY THE CARS - when worker pay is reduced? (same for GM/FORD/VISTEON

Airlines, we read about everyday and the reductions in salary and workers BUT when was the last time you heard of a Senior Executive out there taking a cut.

Please do not mis-understand me - there are some executives out there who add real value to the company and should be rewarded. Unfortunately it is the exception and "real value" does not mean just cutting expense.

GM always talks about their overhead being too high (which it is) but the real problem is theirproducts can not compete against such brands as Toyota or Honda (independent of price). Just yesterday the Wall Street Journal had an article on Ford and GM trying to get the AMERICAN public to buy AMERICAN = problem is that (according to article, the Toyota Sienna has more US content than a MUSTANG (as does the HONDA ACCORD and CIVIC)

I will get off my soap box, :confused: :confused: :confused:

[Johny]

Challenge for the CEO's and their company - - "Who will be able to afford their products!!!" The "gulf" between the rich and poor has never been wider - and it is growing.

Example is DELPHI, who wants the workers to take huge pay cut, while many of the executives receive "retention" bonus and stock options. (are these not the same folks that helped get DELPHI is the shape they are in? WHO WILL BUY THE CARS - when worker pay is reduced? (same for GM/FORD/VISTEON

Airlines, we read about everyday and the reductions in salary and workers BUT when was the last time you heard of a Senior Executive out there taking a cut.

Please do not mis-understand me - there are some executives out there who add real value to the company and should be rewarded. Unfortunately it is the exception and "real value" does not mean just cutting expense.

GM always talks about their overhead being too high (which it is) but the real problem is theirproducts can not compete against such brands as Toyota or Honda (independent of price). Just yesterday the Wall Street Journal had an article on Ford and GM trying to get the AMERICAN public to buy AMERICAN = problem is that (according to article, the Toyota Sienna has more US content than a MUSTANG (as does the HONDA ACCORD and CIVIC)

I will get off my soap box, :confused: :confused: :confused:

Excellent post Pete. Come to dbrk's Ramble and let's have some red.

John

[JohnS]

Challenge for the CEO's and their company - - "Who will be able to afford their products!!!" The "gulf" between the rich and poor has never been wider - and it is growing.

Example is DELPHI, who wants the workers to take huge pay cut, while many of the executives receive "retention" bonus and stock options. (are these not the same folks that helped get DELPHI is the shape they are in? WHO WILL BUY THE CARS - when worker pay is reduced? (same for GM/FORD/VISTEON

Airlines, we read about everyday and the reductions in salary and workers BUT when was the last time you heard of a Senior Executive out there taking a cut.

Please do not mis-understand me - there are some executives out there who add real value to the company and should be rewarded. Unfortunately it is the exception and "real value" does not mean just cutting expense.

GM always talks about their overhead being too high (which it is) but the real problem is theirproducts can not compete against such brands as Toyota or Honda (independent of price). Just yesterday the Wall Street Journal had an article on Ford and GM trying to get the AMERICAN public to buy AMERICAN = problem is that (according to article, the Toyota Sienna has more US content than a MUSTANG (as does the HONDA ACCORD and CIVIC)

I will get off my soap box, :confused: :confused: :confused:Amen...you expressed what I was saying MUCH better than I ever could.

[Grant McLean]

atmo - at the core this this discussion, in bicycle terms
at least, is that the companies that brand and/or outsource
do so because they cannot get it done "locally". and, believe
me, even if it could be done in the next county, there's be
someone to complain that it's "...not really being made by
the actual cat whose eponymous firm it is.
the ridleys, colnagos, and whatevers of the bicycle industry
supply tens of thousands of units to markets worldwide. it
is simply ludicrous to assume that any cottage industry,
ben & jerry type of company could fill that demand. the
problem only arises when you compare the product made by
line workers with the work done in the better ice cream parlors.

I have the answer to shorten your waiting list!

-g

[e-RICHIE]

I have the answer to shorten your waiting list!

-g

so do i...
Roy E. Munson

[Grant McLean]

so do i...
Roy E. Munson


IMHO, it's almost insulting to Richard Sachs to think of his contribution
to bicycles as his two skilled hands. Yo. Yes, a Sachs is "crafted" becasuse
he cares about the process of joining tubes, but the bikes ride great because
of far more than that 1 fact.

What about all the mental work Richard has done? The experience to fit a
rider to a bike, the creativity of a lug shoreline, the dialed geometry that
affects how the bike will ride?

By focusing on the manufacturing part only, doesn't that assume any top
welder could create a world class bike brand? I don't think so !

g

[manet]

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e61/easterncaster/IMG_1034.jpg

[e-RICHIE]

thing will be better once we get to provo atmo