Power meter buying advice

[kgreene10]

I need a new power meter. I think I've done my research on the options reasonably well, but wanted to check in with the hive-mind to see if I've missed anything.

I am not interested in left-only measuring devices and would ideally like something that measures left and right independently. I know that there isn't a lot of research yet on how to use these data, but I want to see it for my own physical therapy issues.

The options:

Quarq -- reliable and something I'm familiar and comfortable with. The Riken doesn't do L-R, the Elsa does but only by ascribing each leg's power to what's generate in the downstroke. As a result, back pressure isn't discernible. Not the easiest to move between bikes either.

Pioneer -- can only get L-R metrics if you use their headunit that adds cost (I already have a Garmin) and hasn't had the best reviews. Cadence is measured with magnets, so you have to outfit each bike with them if you want to move it around.

Garmin Vector -- reviews say it's finicky and I don't like the idea of adding rotational weight on the very thing I'm working to rotate.

Powertap P1 -- checks all the boxes except that it's even heavier than Garmin and I get the sense that it might be easier to strike the bottom of the pedal when cornering hard (as I do in crits every week). And it's just too heavy.

Powertap C1 -- like Quarq Riken but new and so unproven.

Watteam Powerbeat, Stages, Brim Brothers and possibly 4iiii all have L-R sensors in development but they aren't out yet and in the case of the Watteam and 4iiii, they haven't yet proven reliable.

Not sure about Rotor.

Have I missed anything? Do you incline toward one or the other options?

[Wesley37]

I
Powertap P1 -- checks all the boxes except that it's even heavier than Garmin and I get the sense that it might be easier to strike the bottom of the pedal when cornering hard (as I do in crits every week). And it's just too heavy.


If the increased stack height is causing that much trouble with pedal strike, you might have bigger problems

[Uncle Jam's Army]

Get the Pioneer. It's been solid for me so far.

[coffeecake]

All I can add is something that I've heard many times around here:

Avoid the unproven options. Wait until they've worked out the bugs and released V2.

[kgreene10]

Get the Pioneer. It's been solid for me so far.

Do you use the Pioneer head unit with it?

[kgreene10]

If the increased stack height is causing that much trouble with pedal strike, you might have bigger problems

It's the extra body on the underside of the pedal. As I say, I'm not sure how much it changes the angle at which the pedal will strike but I want to be able to lean the bike hard in crits. In any case, the extra rotational weight also bothers me with the P1.

[Uncle Jam's Army]

Do you use the Pioneer head unit with it?

Yes, but it should work with Garmin as well. And, as far as I am aware, Garmin will give you L-R power readings. It just won't give you the pedaling efficiency numbers, which I am at a loss to understand anyway.

[teleguy57]

at 61 when I think about buying a PM I look back at this quote from across the hall:

"A middle aged man buying a power meter is like a middle age man hiring an escort to laugh at him."

Of course, YMMV.... and I still have that thought flash through my mind from time to time....

[kgreene10]

"A middle aged man buying a power meter is like a middle age man hiring an escort to laugh at him."..

Hilarious!

[jimoots]

You missed Power2Max and Stages.

Power2Max is a great product. Don't bother with Stages though!

[kgreene10]

Right, need to check out P2max. Does it do left and right?

I just spoke to a surprisingly unpleasant Pioneer customer service person who didn't seem to want to give me much information. He basically told me he has no idea how his product interacts with any bicycles, cranks, or head units. It only took 20 minutes on hold to get that sterling information. I'm still interested in the product but it bothers me when companies sell a premium luxury item and don't treat the customer as well as they should. Quarq actually excels when it comes to customer service.

[kramnnim]

What about SRM?! :hello:

My Quarqs have worked well. L/R is interesting until you come to the conclusion that your legs are evenly balanced, and then you never look at L/R anymore.

[Joachim]

What about SRM?! :hello:

My Quarqs have worked well. L/R is interesting until you come to the conclusion that your legs are evenly balanced, and then you never look at L/R anymore.

I have an ELSA and a 7900 SRM. Both work great. The SRM is more reliable. If i have to buy another power meter in the future it will be a 9000 SRM. I pick reliability and data quality over everything else and that's what I will recommend to all my clients from now on. Most of my coaching colleagues also recommend SRM (and we've all had experience with Quarq and other power meters). Where is Shovelhd?

[kgreene10]

L/R is interesting until you come to the conclusion that your legs are evenly balanced, and then you never look at L/R anymore.

Mine aren't. I'm twisted on the saddle, full of compensations, and one leg is noticeably smaller than the other. I want to know more about where the power is being exerted and where it isn't to add to information from my physical therapist.

Just spoke with Stages and although they are developing left and right pods, no word on when they might be ready.

[benb]

I thought DC Rainmaker had said the Stages after firmware updates has turned out to be one of the most accurate/reliable systems. It certainly doesn't give you L/R, but for anyone whose never even had a power meter isn't it enough to learn to train properly with power?

[kgreene10]

I have an ELSA and a 7900 SRM. Both work great. The SRM is more reliable.

Thanks Joachim. What are the reliability issues you have had with the Elsa? I have been using a Quarq Cinqo Saturn for the past six years and it has been great until now -- or at least I think it has. It's only when things get really funky that it's clear something isn't working correctly.

[kgreene10]

Stages...It certainly doesn't give you L/R, but for anyone whose never even had a power meter isn't it enough to learn to train properly with power?

I've been training with power for six years and work with a coach. I probably should have mentioned that in my initial post.

[Joachim]

Thanks Joachim. What are the reliability issues you have had with the Elsa? I have been using a Quarq Cinqo Saturn for the past six years and it has been great until now -- or at least I think it has. It's only when things get really funky that it's clear something isn't working correctly.

My Saturn died 1 week past the warranty date. My ELSA ate batteries and gives no notice when the battery is low. It just dies. Often there has been water involved. Then I had to reset the system using a new battery (using the quarq method). That usually kills the new battery and then it works. I get more temp drift with the ELSA than SRM. Still much less issues than everyone I know with Stages. In the end, Quarq and SRM are the only two I would use with my recommendation going to SRM between the two. Also, I like Hollowtech better than GXP bb's :).

[kgreene10]

In the end, Quarq and SRM are the only two I would use with my recommendation going to SRM between the two. Also, I like Hollowtech better than GXP bb's :).

With your credentials, I take your recommendation seriously. I just looked at the SRM DA9000 price though. Ouch.

[Joachim]

With your credentials, I take your recommendation seriously. I just looked at the SRM DA9000 price though. Ouch.

Correct, it's expensive. But a lot of people won't hesitate to spend $3000 on a set of wheels. If you are serious about and racing and training with a Pm you should see it as an investment. On the other hand an Elsa would probably serve it's purpose just fine for 95% of the people out there.

[ptourkin]

With your credentials, I take your recommendation seriously. I just looked at the SRM DA9000 price though. Ouch.

If you're already on DA, ask your local SRM dealer if they can get you a spider only unit from Colorado and use your chainrings. You can save pretty good $$. It's a rock solid pm and crank.

[Gummee]

I just inherited a PowerTap wheel. As of right this second, all it is is another data field. Need to go do 'the test.' Anyone wanna take that for me? Sounds painful.

Plusses: its a wheel. Easy in/easy out. Seems fairly straightforward

Minuses: its a wheel. If you're racing and want aero wheels, ya gotta buy at least 2 of em. (read $$) If you've got a direct drive trainer, you won't have power unless you invest big $$

AFA the Pioneer: its based on a D/A crank. Anything a Shimano crank fits, it'll fit. If you're running BB/PF30, etc you'll need an adaptor BB from Praxis, Wheels Manufacturing, or Enduro (If I'm spending my own $ on one, it'll probably be a Pioneer.)

M

[Look585]

Buy a used SRM, send it to CO for "spa services", enjoy reliable data for the next 1500-3000hrs of training with no concerns about accuracy, longevity, water ingress, or general suckiness.

Watching teammates go through various experimental "generation 1" products, the only other I'd consider would be the Power2Max, but they cost almost as much as a used SRM.

Get the real deal.

[kgreene10]

If you're already on DA, ask your local SRM dealer if they can get you a spider only unit from Colorado and use your chainrings. You can save pretty good $$. It's a rock solid pm and crank.

Interesting idea. I'll look into it -- thanks.

[John H.]

Except 9000 cranks don't work like that.
Spider does not come off the crank.
The SRM 9000 crankset is custom made for SRM.
That Said- you could buy the chassis without chainrings and save a bit.

Interesting idea. I'll look into it -- thanks.

[ptourkin]

Except 9000 cranks don't work like that.
Spider does not come off the crank.
The SRM 9000 crankset is custom made for SRM.
That Said- you could buy the chassis without chainrings and save a bit.

Yes, the chassis with cranks. SRM will send it as everything but the rings and it saves you some $$ as they are the same and marked up. If you ride 172.5, I may have access to one NIB.

[ftf]

I'm between the quarq and Pioneer myself, leaning Quarq since that works with my current headunits, I've used one and it was satisfactory in the past.

[shovelhd]

I have an ELSA and a 7900 SRM. Both work great. The SRM is more reliable. If i have to buy another power meter in the future it will be a 9000 SRM. I pick reliability and data quality over everything else and that's what I will recommend to all my clients from now on. Most of my coaching colleagues also recommend SRM (and we've all had experience with Quarq and other power meters). Where is Shovelhd?

Shovelhd has been flying to Boston and back on the corporate chopper and had no time for the Paceline.

Shovelhd endorses this post.

I went through two replacement Quarqs before selling the last replacement and buying a used SRAM SRM for exactly what I got for the Quarq. It was a year old and still under warranty. I raced it for a year with no issues. I had no idea how much crank battery was left as I did not have a PC7 so I sent it to Colorado with a set of Red 22 rings and had the batteries replaced and calibrated. I'll get three years out if it before it needs to go back. I just ordered a PC8 to complete the system.

I also have a Stages on my rain bike. With the new battery door and firmware it has been solidly reliable for a second power meter. It does not respond as quickly as the SRM but it's fine for what I need it for. I bought it used for $500.

If you want to work on L/R power balance get a Computrainer.

What I really want to know is how the other side of the hall feels about a 58 year old Masters racer that owns two power meters.

[Miles]

The best thing about quarqs and stages is they have seriously devalued used srms. Buy an SRM it's worth the 100 for a battery change every one to two years.

[wallymann]

What I really want to know is how the other side of the hall feels about a 58 year old Masters racer that owns two power meters.

or a ~50yo *occasional* masters racer with 6 (!) powertap wheels.

fwiw...i like powertaps. they're mature, proven technology that work well. and for me, i have a thing for interesting and high-quality cranksets and wheelsets. i need variety, and with powertaps wheels i can run any of my road-bikes and their respective cranksets with the right wheels. from a current plastic-fantastic with wide HED rims driven by carbon cranks to a retro-merckx with 30-year old Wolber TX rims driven by super-record cranks to a disc gravelbike with beefy H+ archetypes driven by classy alloy ultra-torque alloys.

[Uncle Jam's Army]

I usually like my escorts to whip me and tell me how dirty I am. . . .

Oh, sorry, I thought this was Ashley Madison. :eek:

[oldpotatoe]

at 61 when I think about buying a PM I look back at this quote from across the hall:

"A middle aged man buying a power meter is like a middle age man hiring an escort to laugh at him."

Of course, YMMV.... and I still have that thought flash through my mind from time to time....

Funny!!!:banana:

[laupsi]

What I really want to know is how the other side of the hall feels about a 58 year old Masters racer that owns two power meters.

sheepish in my response, I'm 50 and have 4; 2 SRM, 1 PT, 1 Garmin.

FWIW, the SRM is by far the better tool, in every aspect!

[earlfoss]

The PowerTap C1 is pretty well nailed down at this point.

I'm going to do some product testing soon on it and am pretty excited to see how well it tracks with my Power2Max.

[jimoots]

Right, need to check out P2max. Does it do left and right?


Yep it splits left and right, based on stroke like the Quarq.

All in all a very reliable PM.

[teleguy57]

I usually like my escorts to whip me and tell me how dirty I am. . . .

Oh, sorry, I thought this was Ashley Madison. :eek:

Aha, I think we discovered the true identify of Hannah's horse, the one with the dirty knees.....

[velomonkey]

Lots of information on this post, however, this information is false and it can not stand . . . . .
I look back at this quote from across the hall:

"A middle aged man buying a power meter is like a middle age man hiring an escort to laugh at him."


Across, the hall . . those dudes are always standing on the shoulders of others. If I may: the real quote, circe 2009, is from Bike Snob and it is as follows

If you're an amateur, buying a power meter to train is like hiring an accountant to tell you how broke you are . . . Link should you require it (http://bikesnobnyc.blogspot.com/2009/09/power-struggle-sucking-and-sucking-it.html)

If there is anything Bike Snob gets it's power and now the claims of aero. . . .if there is anything the dudes across the hall get it's bad plagiarism and escorts.

[Uncle Jam's Army]

aha, i think we discovered the true identify of hannah's horse, the one with the dirty knees.....

😜

[GParkes]

Power2Max. No issues at all, reasonably priced, and plenty of options to upgrade it. Highly recommend.

[velomonkey]

FYI - I got a power2max and it works fine, my buddy has the pioneer and loves it, he is a real finicky dude and is wicked picky with what he buys.

With that, again, I give you bike snob.

"I will make a fortune when I introduce my own power meter at next year's Interbike, since it will be the cheapest and most accurate one ever. Yes, for $5 you'll get an LCD display which constantly flashes the message, 'You suck.'

If that's not enough data for you and you crave downloadable information, simply plug your own license number into the USA Cycling website and analyze away."

[fuzzalow]

I don't race or even train anymore and I have an old SRM Pro on my Eriksen. I just ride my bike. I know how to use it and I know how to train with it. But I don't anymore because that kind of pursuit is no longer a part of my cycling life or identity.

I would hope that when a man gets to middle-age he has the maturity to neither care about what his powermeter is telling him nor who might be laughing in countenance of its results.

To the OP: purchase the SRM - many years invested by SRM to develop & refine an implementation so that it is a reliable tool. Don't need newer state of the art, just accuracy enough to tell you what and how to structure work inputs.

[kgreene10]

Fuzz, if you genuinely don't use your SRM anymore, I will happily take it off your hands.

I am middle aged and I love training with power. One of the biggest benefits for me is efficiency. I can get more payoff for hours invested in cycling which, to me, is a very self-indulgent sport simply because it takes so much time. The more efficient I am, the more time I can spend on my career and with my family.

[teleguy57]

Lots of information on this post, however, this information is false and it can not stand . . . . .


Across, the hall . . those dudes are always standing on the shoulders of others. If I may: the real quote, circe 2009, is from Bike Snob and it is as follows

If you're an amateur, buying a power meter to train is like hiring an accountant to tell you how broke you are . . . Link should you require it (http://bikesnobnyc.blogspot.com/2009/09/power-struggle-sucking-and-sucking-it.html)

If there is anything Bike Snob gets it's power and now the claims of aero. . . .if there is anything the dudes across the hall get it's bad plagiarism and escorts.

Thanks for the Bike Snob background! You know, I'm fairly persnickety about getting quotes right, and didn't think to see if there was a precursor to what I quoted from the other forum. Both make me smile -- and cringe a bit:)

[fuzzalow]

Fuzz, if you genuinely don't use your SRM anymore, I will happily take it off your hands.

It's true that the SRM might seem wasteful on the bike now as it is not used as a data gathering tool. But I have kept it because it is depreciated to the point that I'd rather just keep it rather than sell it for the modest amount of money it might bring. I have owned it from new; in over 10 years I have changed the crank battery 3 times and replaced the ni-cads with ni-mh in the PC-V. If you can solder you can DIY. Good 'ol fashioned wired unit, rock solid reliable.

IMO and in agreement with others, buying a well maintained SRM wired unit is the best way forwards. They are inexpensive.

I am conservative about training in the sense that there is no magic involved in achieving results which are wholly dependent on adherence to the discipline and structure of what you have mapped out in your program. As such, I see less value in the newest PMs with L/R readouts and whatever gadgets are whizbang. I see L/R imbalance, if there is any, more a symptom of bike fit & position rather than some kind of direct physical or RPE anomaly between pedal stroke hemispheres. Which is a long way of saying buy reliability rather than high tech toys. The rest is up to you

I am middle aged and I love training with power. One of the biggest benefits for me is efficiency. I can get more payoff for hours invested in cycling which, to me, is a very self-indulgent sport simply because it takes so much time. The more efficient I am, the more time I can spend on my career and with my family.

Agree 100%. That's why I bought my SRM. Plus frankly, it is the modern age and PM technology is cheap so if you in any way serious about training you should use power.

[malcolm]

at 61 when I think about buying a PM I look back at this quote from across the hall:

"A middle aged man buying a power meter is like a middle age man hiring an escort to laugh at him."

Of course, YMMV.... and I still have that thought flash through my mind from time to time....

For me at 57 this would be accurate, but if you are actually using the numbers then what difference does it make how old you are.
I sold my power tap 10 years ago when I realized I was just looking at the numbers and not actually doing anything with them and hadn't been for several years.

[ceolwulf]

The quotes are amusing but I'm a little annoyed at the implication that striving to be the best you can be is limited to people under 30.

[fuzzalow]

The quotes are amusing but I'm a little annoyed at the implication that striving to be the best you can be is limited to people under 30.

In the miasma of self absorption implicit to many under 30, there are no people other than under 30.

[wallymann]

...
I sold my power tap 10 years ago when I realized I was just looking at the numbers and not actually doing anything with them and hadn't been for several years...

what's wrong with having a powermeter for grins? using a powermeter doesnt necessitate having to agonize over every milliwatt of power output and millijoule of energy.

in the winter and spring, i use a powermeter for all the truth and objectivity and efficiency it brings to my training. i leave it on the bike for the rest of the year and occasionally refer to the numbers in passing.

it doesnt have to be all or nothing, just having the data can make for an enjoyable diversion and the basis for post-ride smack talk.

[Joachim]

It has a place for riders and coaches who want to evaluate performance. furthermore, for most of my riders their time is valuable and they appreciate the time management efficiency that comes with the use of a power meter to improve. different strokes and all. Not everyone needs to be a Jan Heine.