Power / Hysteresis Loss at Tubular Rim/Tire Interface

[Splash]

Hi All.

I read this article, highlighting increases in Power output is required to overcome a less than 100% bonding interface (and increases in RR) due to the glue interfacce used with tubulars.

http://www.biketechreview.com/index.php/forum/1-general-discussion/9761-the-definitive-rolling-resistance-thread?limit=25&start=25

Do you guys know if this happens?

Besides permanently bonding my tubular tire to my tubular rim, what bonding (to glue my tubulars) material is best recommended to minimise or even eliminate this loss in power and reduce RR?

I note that someone has used automotive panel/trim adhesive (like 3M Fastrak) as it dries very hard and fast.


Splash

[rustychisel]

Okay, I'll be the one to kick it off...

Are you trolling, or exhaustively researching every gram, every watt, every aspect of bicycles rather than riding the damned things? Seems to me that if you spent as much time cycling as asking questions you'd be three times the cyclist you appear to be.

I appreciate I may be accused of being uncharitable here, but it is my opinion that if you need to ask about energy transfer and loss in tubular tyres then you definitely should not consider buying and riding them.

I apologise if this offends, but (there's lots of ways to say this), the internet has no filters and that applies both to information which can be gleaned and those who ask the questions. This place is a haven and very good people come here. If you are trolling; just don't do it. :no:

[Joachim]

Splash, the guys over at Slowtwitch love to talk watt, aerodynamics, physics and engineering. Weightweenies, well, the name should help you out. In case of hysteresis, some will confuse that with 19th century Freudian hysteria. If all of this is pure for scientific interest, that's great, but if you think it will substitute for training in getting you to ride better, you are sorely mistaken. Team Sky might have put forth marginal gains, but at your level, riding 1hr more per day is going to blow the marginal gains out of the water.

[Splash]

No offence taken Rusty. Understand. No, I am not trolling. I will back off now.

Thanks Joachim.


Splash

[oldpotatoe]

Hi All.

I read this article, highlighting increases in Power output is required to overcome a less than 100% bonding interface (and increases in RR) due to the glue interfacce used with tubulars.

http://www.biketechreview.com/index.php/forum/1-general-discussion/9761-the-definitive-rolling-resistance-thread?limit=25&start=25

Do you guys know if this happens?

Besides permanently bonding my tubular tire to my tubular rim, what bonding (to glue my tubulars) material is best recommended to minimise or even eliminate this loss in power and reduce RR?

I note that someone has used automotive panel/trim adhesive (like 3M Fastrak) as it dries very hard and fast.


Splash

Use either Panaracer, or Vittoria glue. Do the 'acid/solvent', small brush, glue the
-tire
-rim
-tire
-rim
-tire

wait until the glue on the tire no longer sticks to your fingers(about 15 minutes)
-glue rim, mount tire, center, wait 24 hours..go ride. A little glue each application, don't glob it on.

Any of the above article is wee/tiny/lost in the noise of what's going on mechanically on a bicycle. Rolling resistance differences across the board are astoundingly small and in the grand scheme of riding a bicycle, means nothing at all.

Remember, there are 4 'secrets' to cycling performance-in no particular order, they all start with 'F'
-Fit-does the bike fit you
-Fitness-are you 'fit'
-Fat-lack thereof on you
-Finesse-riding and training smart.

These teeny tiny 'things' that some on the interweb wax and wane about concerning things like loss of power when gluing on a tubie..mean nothing.

[laupsi]

Okay, I'll be the one to kick it off...

Are you trolling, or exhaustively researching every gram, every watt, every aspect of bicycles rather than riding the damned things? Seems to me that if you spent as much time cycling as asking questions you'd be three times the cyclist you appear to be.

I appreciate I may be accused of being uncharitable here, but it is my opinion that if you need to ask about energy transfer and loss in tubular tyres then you definitely should not consider buying and riding them.

I apologise if this offends, but (there's lots of ways to say this), the internet has no filters and that applies both to information which can be gleaned and those who ask the questions. This place is a haven and very good people come here. If you are trolling; just don't do it. :no:


THIS! the world needs great minds like yours to solve bigger problems, have at it please! In the mean time, just ride your damn bike!!! Good Grief

[OtayBW]

Some very good points made in this thread. :rolleyes:

[FlashUNC]

If you gluw something on with such a strong adhesive, you're never getting the tire off when it comes time to do so.

[fuzzalow]

Hey, you're just makin' conversation. Nuthin' wrong with that. And your topics are also often items concerning extreme specialization - nuthin' wrong with that either.

But I'll comment on this - it is easier to toss stuff into the conversation for no discernible purpose. It is much harder to come to a conclusion on something, make your point about it and be capable of defending it. Doing that is, to me, real engagement and real value where you're taking risk and effort to bring something that hasn't already been heard a hundred times before. Instead of asking the questions why not answer a few for the benefit of the readership of this forum. Your being smart & clever enough to ask these types of questions means you're capable of forming an answer or at least a hypothesis of one.

IMO it is goofy to answer a question posed here by asking a follow up question instead of giving an answer with things that give a impression you actually know what you're talking about.

[reggiebaseball]

pay a local shop who regularly glues tubulars to do it proper, dont try it yourself the first time on your new Enve wheels.

[Tickdoc]

Use either Panaracer, or Vittoria glue. Do the 'acid/solvent', small brush, glue the
-tire
-rim
-tire
-rim
-tire

wait until the glue on the tire no longer sticks to your fingers(about 15 minutes)
-glue rim, mount tire, center, wait 24 hours..go ride. A little glue each application, don't glob it on.

Any of the above article is wee/tiny/lost in the noise of what's going on mechanically on a bicycle. Rolling resistance differences across the board are astoundingly small and in the grand scheme of riding a bicycle, means nothing at all.

Remember, there are 4 'secrets' to cycling performance-in no particular order, they all start with 'F'
-Fit-does the bike fit you
-Fitness-are you 'fit'
-Fat-lack thereof on you
-Finesse-riding and training smart.

These teeny tiny 'things' that some on the interweb wax and wane about concerning things like loss of power when gluing on a tubie..mean nothing.

Spot on:hello:

[djdj]

pay a local shop who regularly glues tubulars to do it proper, dont try it yourself the first time on your new Enve wheels.

It's not that difficult. There are plenty of instructions/demos out there to help you get it right the first time.

[brando]

pay a local shop who regularly glues tubulars to do it proper, dont try it yourself the first time on your new Enve wheels.

I had an "experienced" shop glue my tires once. After they rolled off, I'll never do it ever again. It's like packing your own parachute. I've never rolled a tubie that I've glued myself.

[yakstone]

If you are going to ride them, you have to learn some time. Pay attention to the tread direction among other things. Lots to think about with your first couple of glue jobs.

[Mark McM]

If you are going to ride them, you have to learn some time. Pay attention to the tread direction among other things.

Why? There's very little evidence that tread direction makes any difference on bicycle tires. About the only test I've seen regarding tread direction was a tire aerodynamic test by Swiss Side (http://www.swissside.com/swiss-side-hadron-project-update-13/), which showed that the Continental Grand Prix tire actually has less aerodynamic drag when mounted in reverse (opposite the tread direction arrows on the sidewall).

[fogrider]

Why? There's very little evidence that tread direction makes any difference on bicycle tires. About the only test I've seen regarding tread direction was a tire aerodynamic test by Swiss Side (http://www.swissside.com/swiss-side-hadron-project-update-13/), which showed that the Continental Grand Prix tire actually has less aerodynamic drag when mounted in reverse (opposite the tread direction arrows on the sidewall).

after I mounted my vittoria corsa, I noticed the directional arrow...I thought: ok, its a front wheel, just flip the skewer...I looked at the tread and thought, really? it's going to make a diff? I'll flip it back to see if I notice a diff. there are so many other reasons to ride tubulars, rr makes no difference to me!

[RonW87]

Why? There's very little evidence that tread direction makes any difference on bicycle tires.

If the direction arrow were the wrong way it would drive me nuts (even though I know there is no performance difference).