I know, I know, everybody is sick of doping stories BUT

[oldpotatoe]

This one is interesting, IMHO.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2015/08/news/the-test-that-caught-tom-danielson_381086

[clyde the point]

Good story Peter.

Any movement that cleans up the field is a good on IMO. I one day hope that I would recommend a pro athlete career to anyone, because the ability to cheat is limited or eliminated by technology.

[oldpotatoe]

Good story Peter.

Any movement that cleans up the field is a good on IMO. I one day hope that I would recommend a pro athlete career to anyone, because the ability to cheat is limited or eliminated by technology.

I'm just a little surprised they published the info. I know the idea is clean riders, not how many they can bust but still...

Looked at some twitter responses and talked to Clark Sheehan..nobody is surprised about TD, except TD, I guess, that he got caught.

[nmrt]

As someone with a bit of background in chemistry, I suppose one should be able to synthesize testosterone in a lab that can have the same 12C /13C ratio as the body. But if it can be done, it must be mighty expensive.

[Jgrooms]

The big question is why wait so long to use CIR? Expense? Poor excuse imo. You can fly testers all over the world for out of comp tests, but can't perform a CIR in comp?

Unfortunately just another example of the governing body not really wanting to fix it and/or bureaucracy at its best.

And someone singled out TD...

[nooneline]

As someone with a bit of background in chemistry, I suppose one should be able to synthesize testosterone in a lab that can have the same 12C /13C ratio as the body. But if it can be done, it must be mighty expensive.

The point, though, is that an individual's 12C:13C is unique to the individual:

The ratio between carbon-12 and carbon-13 is constant within an individual. This is the crux of the CIR test: Labs compare the ratio of carbon-12 to carbon-13 in an individual痴 testosterone with the carbon-12/carbon-13 ratio in some other, non-performance-enhancing compound, like cholesterol. The two ratios should match. If they don稚, that痴 a positive test.

So, I suppose that if synthetic T could be made with variable 12C:13C ratios, then, one could test their own body's ratio and then order bespoke testosterone... but I doubt that would happen.

[earlfoss]

The point, though, is that an individual's 12C:13C is unique to the individual:



So, I suppose that if synthetic T could be made with variable 12C:13C ratios, then, one could test their own body's ratio and then order bespoke testosterone... but I doubt that would happen.

It can and will happen if the situation demands. I think you're underestimating the suppliers and athletes there. When it does happen and someone gets caught, there will be another cool Velonews article about how the testing caught up with such an advanced doping method.

[Look585]

Did anyone else read this and think "wow, it must be *really* easy for local amateurs/masters to abuse testosterone"?

[benb]

Well there is kind of a chicken and egg problem.. if it costs a ton to make this bespoke T then the rider will have to have already made a fortune to get it.

I guess in a clean peloton you could have a clean guy making a lot of money getting results and he'd have the money to set this up to keep himself on top. But if things are still mostly dirty (like I believe them to be) the up and coming guys won't be able to afford it and will find something else.

[earlfoss]

I think that over time hobby chemists would be able to work with an athlete to determine the right ratios and then proceed to synthesize. Go on the bodybuilding forums and see the level those guys are at with chems, dosing, etc etc. They may look like meatheads but many of them know more about PEDs and how the body responds to them than you think.

The initial price for something like this might be high but where there's a will there's a way (to make it cheaper and more accessible)!

[nmrt]

Hmmm...I see your point.
But now I wonder, does the 13C/12C ratio really vary between individuals? I mean should they not be the same between individuals? After all, this ratio in an individual's body is only due to the natural abundance of carbon isotopes in the environment, no...?
The point, though, is that an individual's 12C:13C is unique to the individual:



So, I suppose that if synthetic T could be made with variable 12C:13C ratios, then, one could test their own body's ratio and then order bespoke testosterone... but I doubt that would happen.

[CunegoFan]

Hmmm...I see your point.
But now I wonder, does the 13C/12C ratio really vary between individuals? I mean should they not be the same between individuals? After all, this ratio in an individual's body is only due to the natural abundance of carbon isotopes in the environment, no...?

It varies with your diet. I would guess that vegetarians might have different ratio than those on a typical Western diet. Supposedly by using the difference between testosterone and cholesterol that won't matter but from what I have been told, the CIR test was validated with very few individuals, like three with no control group. I don't know if that is true. I do know there are several riders who have tested positive, admitted they were using various drugs at the time they were caught for testosterone, but still swear up and down they were not using testosterone. They are convinced the test is flawed.

It is interesting that the T:E ratio test is horribly flawed and no longer used alone without confirmation from the CIR test.

[Joachim]

It varies with your diet. I would guess that vegetarians might have different ratio than those on a typical Western diet. Supposedly by using the difference between testosterone and cholesterol that won't matter but from what I have been told, the CIR test was validated with very few individuals, like three with no control group. I don't know if that is true. I do know there are several riders who have tested positive, admitted they were using various drugs at the time they were caught for testosterone, but still swear up and down they were not using testosterone. They are convinced the test is flawed.

It is interesting that the T:E ratio test is horribly flawed and no longer used alone without confirmation from the CIR test.

I doubt it was verified with n=3. If you want to confirm, look for Don Catlins paper on the CIR test.

[verticaldoug]

Good story Peter.

Any movement that cleans up the field is a good on IMO. I one day hope that I would recommend a pro athlete career to anyone, because the ability to cheat is limited or eliminated by technology.

Would be pro athlete only needs to answer the question on whether they are willing to win at any costs? If they need your recommendation, they don't have what it takes.

[CunegoFan]

I doubt it was verified with n=3. If you want to confirm, look for Don Catlins paper on the CIR test.

As I said, I don't know. But some are quite bitter about testing positive for something they were not taking. Others are more philisophical about it, like it was karma for other use of drugs. The whole thing is complicated by USADA being unwilling to spend the extra money to determine the difference between testosterone and its precursors. So while the chance of testing positive for testosterone from a contaminted supplement is small to non-existent, the chance of testing positive for a contaminant precursor, like DHEA, is very real.

[Joachim]

As I said, I don't know. But some are quite bitter about testing positive for something they were not taking. Others are more philisophical about it, like it was karma for other use of drugs. The whole thing is complicated by USADA being unwilling to spend the extra money to determine the difference between testosterone and its precursors. So while the chance of testing positive for testosterone from a contaminted supplement is small to non-existent, the chance of testing positive for a contaminant precursor, like DHEA, is very real.

I merely said it to give you the reference to confirm for yourself since he developed the CIR test. My own research focus on the detection of peptides. With regards to Wada and research money, I don't know how much they allocate to each new drug that comes in the market but to give you an idea of costs: I need about $1.9 million to cover 5 years of research (the average duration of a good project).

[dpk501]

Should you ever want to be a criminal and make a profit in cycling, you have just identified a new niche!


As someone with a bit of background in chemistry, I suppose one should be able to synthesize testosterone in a lab that can have the same 12C /13C ratio as the body. But if it can be done, it must be mighty expensive.

[dpk501]

I'm just a little surprised they published the info. I know the idea is clean riders, not how many they can bust but still...

Looked at some twitter responses and talked to Clark Sheehan..nobody is surprised about TD, except TD, I guess, that he got caught.


It's a misunderstanding. TD was trying to get his voice lower so he could become one of the next big tenors.

[nmrt]

naah...
i'd rather pull off a heisenberg
:-)

QUOTE=dpk501;1804936]Should you ever want to be a criminal and make a profit in cycling, you have just identified a new niche![/QUOTE]