Am I just cranky or do people stink?

[Spicoli]

I have been doing races as my Sunday training ride in the early spring, but this weekend I did a group ride which I have not done in a while. Maybe I am just a crank but does everyone ride like a Jackarse. It seems that those who dont race (not that racing is anything special) treat these training rides like a race and just make a mess of things. I was cut off, snotted on, wheelsuked into oblivion, and just plain annoyed the whole ride. Gap after gap after gap let go, dont pull or pull back for that matter to let those pulling get in infront of you so you can get up and pull again. They would rather you float all the way to the back and close the gaps they let go. If the pace is 26mph or 10mph for that matter"Jackarse will do 28mph for ten fricken feet"! and then almost drop himself swerving all over the road. Is smooth riding a lost art? People could give a crap how much they screw a ride as long as they dont get dropped, the complete lack of courtesy and willingness to do work, or help, or stay out of the fricken way, is disheartening at best.
Example; I finish a pull and after no one gives space and sends me all the to the end of the line.(no biggy) but now I look up and guess what? a huge gap is let go, again. So here I go from the end of the line (Saint Spicoli !!!) past everyone who "protected there position" and start closing the gap again (this is the fifth time so far). This is a biggy with a big fat head wind so I'm gettin nice and tired, I give a flick and would you know the idiot from two wheels back gets out of his saddle and starts sprinting past me. Not a pull, but a full on goin for the gold sprint to close up the rest of the gap "like i'm his fricken leadout or somethin"! NO CLASS! the kicker is nobody came around even after this stupid move. So I'll be honest I am kinda laughing, kinda pissed so I just sit up and you know, they all just fan out across the road no one wants to work for anyone else's benefit. I am not being a jerk or cocky but if I wanted to get myself across I could have done it pretty easily and pretty quickly by myself but I was taught to "help and keep it together=good ride" Racing is another bag and all bets are off but, Can you say group/training ride? I dont get it, 8 out of 10 people today were dangerous.
So please tell me, should I just worry about myself and continue to do these type of rides and become a knucklehead? Am I too touchy? Or should I be a little more picky w/my ride choices? This was the least amount of fun I have ever had on a bike. Shartty workout overall and just plain annoying! :crap:

Cry baby, Spicoli

[coylifut]

it sounds like a group without a leader and any sense of protocol. no you're not cranky you're just experiencing the basic all comers group ride. I avoid em. Doesn't your club/team have a structured weekend ride that rides 2x2, tempos the climbs to keep everyone together and has a few hot spots?

[Spicoli]

We do usually ride together but we gave this a shot and I guess we did not expect it. It was not even a case of taking over the front. People were just all over the place and my buddy's and I were just looking for a no stress ride. We did all get up front and straigten the ride out but falling back, short of leaving someone to hold a door open to get back in line was just a pain in the butt. I cannot believw how clueless some people are about cycling. I may have just been caught by surprise?

[Spicoli]

Oh yeah I forgot, for Gawds sake idiots point out some holes in the road. I wanked a perfect F20 hoop on some flippin hole a jerk (no offense Jerk) just plows through! :bike:

[Moveitfred]

Spicoli--serious question: how do the idiots learn? You're talking about Early Birds, right? I know the ride. I don't do it 'cause I don't learn anything and it's dangerous. A certain population gets fit and wants to ride fast, but they don't know the protocol and techniques. What's the alternative? SBRA deli stop and eat rides or solo (I opt for the latter). Our little island paradise has some gaps in its pacelines and in its cycling education. Going from simply being fit and fast to becoming a quality cyclist isn't easy 'round here, and I don't see anyone teaching.

[Spicoli]

Spicoli--serious question: how do the idiots learn? You're talking about Early Birds, right? I know the ride. I don't do it 'cause I don't learn anything and it's dangerous. A certain population gets fit and wants to ride fast, but they don't know the protocol and techniques. What's the alternative? SBRA deli stop and eat rides or solo (I opt for the latter). Our little island paradise has some gaps in its pacelines and in its cycling education. Going from simply being fit and fast to becoming a quality cyclist isn't easy 'round here, and I don't see anyone teaching.
You are absolutly right but I dont think it is teaching as much as it is watching/learning/questions/+exp..There is not much of an audience for training races or group efforts, we tried it over the past couple years on tuesday nights around Southhaven and the usual suspects got pissy that it was too much to follow? If I had to guess I would say get 3-5 friends that you trust and do group rides with them and ride like a team w/a purpose. I think that would accellerate the curve a bit, if you are yankin pulls they will tell you, also if you are cracking they will/should help you along. It goes for almost everything, throw youre bike back when you stand=they will tell you that suked, brakes in a paceline=water on head and so on in a friendly way. I've been *****ed at many times and I think I fixed what I was doing. I have also dropped polite suggestions and been looked at like I was speaking Greek? Pick and choose who you ride behind and dont "show off", just because you can drop someone does not mean you have too. If you dont know the people you are riding with just pull at the speed they are but go longer if needed. I dont really know but this would be my opinion on how not to be an idiot? My favorite riders are greasy smooth and IMO smooth is fast and thats the fun part. I make no claim to being somekind of expert but I do think I have a good handle on how not to be an arsehole? Think about what annoys you and dont do it on a group/training ride. Chris/Kreb is wealth of knowledge on how not to be a jerk on a bike and also on how to be greasy smooth. He's forgotten more than what 99% of the local shops will ever have a clue about. I just had to vent before, I will get off my soap box now.

Sorry, Spicoli

[Lanternrouge]

In my experience, most people don't have any idea how to ride in groups, including people who do it all the time and even a lot of racers. The concept of closing a gap by any method other than trying to just solo it is a foreign concept to at least 90% of people, including racers below Cat 2. I'd also say there is more dangerous riding on training rides than there is in races, even though it would seem like the opposite should be true. I'd also say that people who race more tend to be safer riders when not racing because they've been forced to learn that they really need to pay a lot of attention to what's going on around them if they don't want to kiss the asphalt.

[vaxn8r]

That's sad. I'd rather ride alone if that was my only choice.

About 8 years ago the tenor of our Saturday AM ride changed. A bunch of wannabes took the ride over alienating a lot of people including myself, treating the ride like a race. Not that I couldn't keep up. Just the opposite but these guys with their team unis thought they were somethin' else. I quit that group. Eventually the old ride was moved or restarted and rules/guidelines were set up. It's still a pretty fast ride but it's always a group ride and man, our pacelines are smooth as butter. Great bunch of guys. KevinK was out there and he can attest to it. Ironically, a lot of those "team" riders migrated back to the new ride and now it works out. I think what happened is they were kinda new at it, pretty strong physically but really didn't have a clue. After several seasons they learned.

[Lifelover]

We do usually ride together but we gave this a shot and I guess we did not expect it. It was not even a case of taking over the front. People were just all over the place and my buddy's and I were just looking for a no stress ride. We did all get up front and straigten the ride out but falling back, short of leaving someone to hold a door open to get back in line was just a pain in the butt. I cannot believw how clueless some people are about cycling. I may have just been caught by surprise?

I don't want to come off augmentative but I could contend that your were part of the problem.

If you are looking for a no stress ride than why the need to keep closing the gap? Clearly there were riders that were not strong enough to stay with the lead pack. Next time instead of trying to pull them and yourself back to the pack just let it break and pull them back home. You will be in control of the newly formed group.

Stay as smooth as possible and build instead of accelerate out of the corners. If a group decides to go by you, let them.

coylifut nailed it with the no leader comment. In the end if you could be the "leader" for what ends up a smaller group including some new riders, they will learn. When they are part of the cluster of the full group they learn nothing.

I don't think that most riders have had the pleasure of following someone who is smooth and is looking to keep a group together instead of just going fast.

[bcm119]

people stink, no doubt about that.
Your rant reminded me of a group ride in a certain SoCal city that on one occasion resulted in a fist-fight by the side of the road, which was only slightly more aggressive than usual. Every group ride develops a personality; you just have to find the right one atmo. Next time you need some Batmobile supplies.... spikes, oil slick, etc.

[bshell]

I heard a guy call the local Saturday ride "the weekly world championship". right on the money...

[Ray]

I ride mostly alone, but since I work alone, weekend club rides are one of my only forms of social life, so sometimes I do 'em anyway. I belong to two clubs - one has been around forever, is small, and is pretty much just social rides. Even the faster rides are pretty laid back and a paceline only breaks out on long, flat, headwind sections, which don't happen that often. It tends to stay safe and enjoyable.

The other club is only a couple of years old, has gotten really huge really quickly, is full of strong riders, and usually involves one or two brushes with death every ride. I keep riding with them because they leave from within about a half mile of my house and I have a number of friends in the club. Trying to hang is its own kind of fun and tends to make me stronger over the course of the year, but I've never seen a club full of people with less idea how to ride. I don't know that this is true of the "A" riders - I'm not one and these guys may really know what they're doing. But the B and B+ folks get into more trouble than your average spring classic on mud and cobbles. I've been on rides with 4-5 crashes just from people being idiots - I haven't gone down but I almost got caught up in one of them a few weeks ago. It's the frickin' tour de france for slow people! I'm slow, I'm ok with it, I like to try to ride fast sometimes anyway, but this just gets stupid. I've never seen a paceline stay together for more than 2 full revolutions - somebody either raises the pace or attacks and everyone goes like stink in a disorganized manner and it falls apart. Or a gap opens halfway back and everyone behind that point goes solo to try to get back on.

They also can't seem to keep their ride speeds anywhere near organized levels. The 'B' rides are advertised as 14-16 mph (pretty hilly terrain, so not QUITE as slow as it sounds). B+ are 15-17. In this terrain, I'm an easy 15 mph rider, can do 16 without much trouble, and can go 17 or a bit more on a good day. But I often have to fight like crazy to keep from getting dropped from the B rides! Couple of weeks ago, one of the B ride leaders posted a post-ride email bragging about how the ride averaged over 18 mph ('A' ride territory). I hadn't been on that ride, but it sounded familiar, so I shot off a response to the whole club and got people talking. All agreed that this was not a 'good thing' and the rides should stick closer to advertised pace. So two days ago, there were a zillion B riders and we split into two groups. I stayed with the slower group on the assurance that we'd stay within the advertised pace. We did 45 hilly miles and I got to the cool down zone a couple miles from the end at 17.1. And I'm not one of the faster people in this slow B group. It was a fun ride, I did fine and had hung in just fine, but this is just stupid. The faster B ride was over 18 again. Maybe its just me, but it seems like if the advertised pace is 14-16, the slower group should stay in the 14-15 range and the faster group should be in the 15-16 range. Per the advertised speeds, I'm on the cusp of B and B+, but I can't even THINK about doing a B+ with this club. I think the C group gets similarly cannibalized from above by people who didn't find the Bs to their liking.

Really discouraging. I'm always relieved when Monday and Tuesday come around and I ride alone again.

-Ray

[Spicoli]

I don't want to come off augmentative but I could contend that your were part of the problem.

If you are looking for a no stress ride than why the need to keep closing the gap? Clearly there were riders that were not strong enough to stay with the lead pack. Next time instead of trying to pull them and yourself back to the pack just let it break and pull them back home. You will be in control of the newly formed group.

Stay as smooth as possible and build instead of accelerate out of the corners. If a group decides to go by you, let them.

coylifut nailed it with the no leader comment. In the end if you could be the "leader" for what ends up a smaller group including some new riders, they will learn. When they are part of the cluster of the full group they learn nothing.

I don't think that most riders have had the pleasure of following someone who is smooth and is looking to keep a group together instead of just going fast.
No offense taken at all. Although I would not say that everyday this ride is like this, seems like a Summer thing and many times people would appreciate the help and or pitch in. "The Need" for me keeping it together is the good part and most people figure that out eventually. I had two friends/teamates with me but we just started cracking up after watching the stupidity that was going on and like I said I "sat up" and shaddowed the ride from 100m. behind for a while talking about how bad it is. When we all came back together I had two more teamates in the other group and they also had that WHAT THE F look on there face's. Its not so much a "leader" thing. Its a Sunday morning and I want to turn my brain off and go for a good ride/workout thing. Not think about a strategy on how to control a stupid bike ride I'll save that for other things. I know how to fix the problem/problems, I posted this more as commentary on how annoying a ride can become, not a "How To" guide. With regard to people not knowing, I/We have had several people ask opinions of myself and others over the years. On what to and not to do in a group and I will be honest when I say that those who asked are a pleasure to ride with these days.

[Too Tall]

Even lowering your expectations won't help. We all know these rides and sometimes can not stay away becuase it is the only game in town or perhaps lightning will strike and a proper paceline will arrive?! Eh. You are at least an optimist at worst wasted some emotional energy.

These rides develop their own out of control culture that everyone on the rides aspires to, go figure. They don't know any different.

Yesterday I got out for a quick spin and a young buck jumped on my wheel. Kid was 22 yrs. old, strong as sheite' and full of beans. After my strong pull he comes thru like a freight train....sheesh. Got my blood up, but hey this is part of the sport...testing each other. So I stuck to him like glue and came around when he started to wobble than tempo'd his pace (evil old man ain't I?). When we hit a hill I just spun away into the sun....I sat up some so he could latch on and once softened up sufficiently the kid got a case of manners...."Sir (he actually said that) I suck at hills can you give me any advice?" OMG....so we talked about alot of stuff...it was nice.

Sheite' happens Spicoli but it us up to the guy with strong legs to "make a difference" in these situations....as caveman as that seems. Sometimes they need a good beat down before learning and more pleasant riding ensues. Suks don't it?

I try to hang with race teams, they tend to get it.

One of my fav. guys to ride with grew up racing in Morocco. He was a track deamon and old school racer. Talk about "gets it"...OMG.

[Spicoli]

Tall Man, that is all well and good but I aint strong enough to soften up 20-30 chuckleheads my friend. Solo yes mob scene no?

[Argos]

It's such a shame that it is so rare to get a good group ride going.

Coming on line thi smorning I was going to post almost the exact opposite of your comments, thoug citing it to be the exception, not the rule.

My weekend got messed up by family things, so instead of the TimeTrial I was going to do on Saturday, I went and did a Century on Sunday. I was not jazzed or trained for the Century, but I know I can do it and 4 guys and a customer from my shop were doing it, so I thought, what the heck.

Well, as opposed to mid 70's and sunny, we had an inch of rain and 55 degrees. At the shop, where we met to car-pool down, I had suggested we go to a diner-like establishment and catch the matinee of MI:III. No one was game, so off we went.

After 45 minutes of riding, a group of about 12, myself included, all with the objective of getting the job done at a smart, steady pace, and knowing there was a long way to ride, started a wonderful paceline. One guy needed a little instruction to not accelerate off the front, but once he got it, it was perfect. We did about 2.5 hours of this before the group broke up in the hills and at a rest stop, but in that 2.5 hours, we were a like minded bunch. Everyone benefited from the teamwork and we covered a little over 50 miles. I think the paceline averaged about 21, which was not too much of an effort for anyone to not hold on....... which was the point.

I guess the real trick is having everyone have the same goals, which is very rare.

(BTW, I was so soaked from this ride, that after a shower, shave, and fresh Pajama's, I was still wet!) :D

[Tom]

I mean, if someone wants to race they should buy a license and see what happens when it matters. Getting all excited because they can drop the club ride really is kind of foolish. If it's a group ride people should be learning what it means to ride fast in a group. I'm lucky to ride with a bunch of guys that have hundreds of races between them and have nothing to prove to anybody and are older so I can manage to keep up with them unless they really turn the screws. They're a good bunch to watch and learn.

[stevep]

announce at the ride start that you want to have a different ride if anyone is interested, my guess is that there are a few riders who also are tired of the faux races and the fauz riders that sometimes take over these rides.

a cycling skills ride:
stays together
group of 10
challenge is to ride a smooth paceline for 2 hours
no gaps, no blasting jump throughs. steady speed with everyone participating.
a tap on the shoulder for the "guy" who pulls through too hard or allows a gap to form. no yelling, no screaming...
just a learn how to ride a bike ride.

[Fixed]

bro around here group rides are always like races you either go with the front guys and work or let them go and ride easy with the slow guys that 's hard to do sometimes with our ego 's but keep in mind we got bigger fish to fry. .i.m.h.o. cheers

[Ginger]

I'm with Argos,
I'm finally to a point that I can ride occasionally with my old group of touring buddies. These are the guys who taught me the ins and outs of riding in a paceline. Saturday they invited me out for a 67 mile hilly dirt road ride with some pavement thrown in. These guys rock! The times we did have our small paceline going (on dirt the washboard and potholes made for more of a two up type ride, even then we mostly stuck together) even with the disparities in fitness, they were smooth as butter. I miss riding with my friends and it is sooooo much fun to be a part of a group like that.

[Spicoli]

Stevep-I think you hit the nail on the head with what a good group ride is and how those who want to learn can if they know the "right people".

Fixed-I think lack of ego is why it bugged me so much? I know what I can and cannot do with regard to someone saying GO and there being a line across the road at the end. It is cheap petty little crap I saw this weekend that reminded me of a bunch monkeys trying to hump a football?

Tom-Something to prove is it, its the kid who takes off and then yells "GO" in a running race as a kid. You just dont expect it as an adult and give people more credit than you should maybe?

Sticking with the race weekends, safer, better workout, more social, more profitable!

[Ken Robb]

For a change of pace and a different perspective take a look at Grant Petersen's comments about kinds of rides at the Rivendell site.

I'm not saying it's a better idea but one maybe worth trying sometimes. DBRK knows, hence "The Ramble". Maybe this attitude is a good one for a fast guy's recovery ride.

[TimD]

One can always fake a mechanical or the need to answer a call to nature, leaving the hammerheads to hammer off into the sunset.

TimD

[67-59]

I'm a newbie and almost always ride solo, so I'm a relatively impartial observer to this discussion, but here are a couple of thoughts.

I could certainly understand how one could get upset with the scenario Ray described -- where the rules of the ride are clearly spelled out in advance (like the 14-16 mph speed), and riders intentionally violate them. In fact, my assumption that people follow these rules is a large part of the reason why I ride solo. Most of the group rides I hear about where I live allow a wide range in abilities, and stop fairly frequently to regroup. Knowing I would probably be somewhere near the front of the pack, coupled with the fact that I simply don't have the patience to stop and wait for stragglers every 10 or 15 miles, tells me I wouldn't be comfortable with group rules. In other words, I stay away from a ride whose rules I can't follow, and I can do that because I know what the rules are.

Now going back to the original post, I can't tell if you experienced a violation of clearly defined rules or not. Was this a clear violation like the kind Ray described, or was it more a matter of riders riding in a style you didn't feel like riding that day? You said you did this ride because you wanted an easy ride that day. Was this made clear to the rest of the group? Because they very well could view their weekend group ride as their hard/competitive ride of the week. And if the rules don't state otherwise, who is to say that they're wrong?

Finally, and perhaps most importantly, even if general guidelines are out there, it may well be that some riders are newbies (like me) who haven't been taught group riding etiquette. If I showed up at a local group ride this weekend, my ignorance might cause me to be viewed as dangerous, overly aggressive, lazy, or whatever. And I can assure you it wouldn't be so much because I want to be viewed that way as it would be that nobody has taught me. To be sure, it would be my obligation to do what I can to learn the group rules through asking questions, observing and the like. But it is just as incumbent on the more knowledgeable riders to tell the newbies when they're doing something dangerous, overly aggressive, lazy or whatever. If you just sit there and stew, and don't say anything, how are they to know?

Maybe I should just keep riding on my own....

[Spicoli]

67-59, The "rules" as you call it apply to all riding. From 10-15mph to 22-28mph, race to ride it does not matter. Sounds like riding solo for you might be a good idea since I think you may have the qaulities I spoke of. I am not being a wisearse and there is nothing wrong with riding the way you want but dont bring the bad "manners" to any ride you are a guest on or impact others. Strength and knowing what you are doing are two completly different animals. But anyhoo since you would probably be by the front and have no patience for rules of group riding you should not have any problems with others? (Yes, wisearse remark) Also Dont think I sit quietly and piss and moan about stupidity, I do politly mention the obvious, it just seems some dont see the obvious too easily. The problem is/was way too many people did not have a clue and that is what surprises me.

Ask before you are told, since being told is the wrong foot forward?

[Brons2]

My least favorite paceline person is the rabbit, who gets to the front and then pulls away. I had that happen a few weeks ago and it was annoying. Our paceline was 20-22. He'd get up front and pull up to 25-27. The first couple of times, I followed him (I was 2nd in line). After that we all decided to stick back and do our own thing. But then he would wait for us! UGH! :crap: :crap:

[stevep]

a very effective counter measure is..when he opens a gap... just make a turn behind him and make him chase...
after all... he's really not on your ride actually anyway.
a few times..works like a charm.
he gets it or he leaves... either outcome desirable.

[67-59]

But the point spicoli is that you are an experienced rider, and perhaps many of the others aren't. So they're clueless; take the opportunity to educate them. If you politely and clearly explain to them the problem and they still ignore it, then f*** 'em. But if they take heed, well then perhaps they will have learned something about riding in a group, and YOU will have learned something...about teaching.

As for me being better off not riding in a group -- absolutely yes, and I admit and recognize it. Sounds like you're having trouble in groups now, too....

[grinder]

It sounds like these group rides are turning into velo fox hunting. Ever been fox hunting? I have and there are more swingin unwritten rules than you can shake a stick at. It's always fun to show up as someone's guest with a horse that kicks one of the hounds or takes off like a racehorse past the whole group. My favorite, is the look a newbie gets when he starts talking about "the dogs".

It sounds like your group ride should have a group picnic where everybody can get to know everyone else. Tap a keg after one of the rides and I guarantee 90% of the problems will disappear the next week. Once people know each other, the head games disappear and everyone works together. It's only when people don't know other people that they do stupid things. The same mentality is the reason for road rage. Think about it - have you ever flipped off your neighbor for almost backing out into you?

As for me, I ride solo 98% of the time and I threw out my computer about 2 years ago. When I do ride with friends, I could care less if they show up in cutoff jeans and ride 8 miles an hour on a Schwinn with a bananna seat and cards in the spokes.

Good luck with your picnic Spicoli. I'de suggest a keg of Michelob Ultra - nobody turns that stuff down.

Ride On !!!!!!

[Spicoli]

But the point spicoli is that you are an experienced rider, and perhaps many of the others aren't. So they're clueless; take the opportunity to educate them. If you politely and clearly explain to them the problem and they still ignore it, then f*** 'em. But if they take heed, well then perhaps they will have learned something about riding in a group, and YOU will have learned something...about teaching.

As for me being better off not riding in a group -- absolutely yes, and I admit and recognize it. Sounds like you're having trouble in groups now, too....
Ahh touche(sp) you got me. your right but who wants to come across as a preachy jackarse, ya know? right wrong good or bad the original point I guess, was to just vent about one of the most F'd up rides I have ever been on. I have helped and been helped and I suppose there will always be the element of crap riding when doing an all comers ride like Coylifut said? Inhuman nature I suppose? I am sure I will give it or rides like it another shot in the future and then maybe I'll be pisssy enough to good'ol boy a couple yambags, who knows high road low road screw it? Till then its the cirle of trust AkA my ride list.

[Spicoli]

It sounds like these group rides are turning into velo fox hunting. Ever been fox hunting? I have and there are more swingin unwritten rules than you can shake a stick at. It's always fun to show up as someone's guest with a horse that kicks one of the hounds or takes off like a racehorse past the whole group. My favorite, is the look a newbie gets when he starts talking about "the dogs".

It sounds like your group ride should have a group picnic where everybody can get to know everyone else. Tap a keg after one of the rides and I guarantee 90% of the problems will disappear the next week. Once people know each other, the head games disappear and everyone works together. It's only when people don't know other people that they do stupid things. The same mentality is the reason for road rage. Think about it - have you ever flipped off your neighbor for almost backing out into you?

As for me, I ride solo 98% of the time and I threw out my computer about 2 years ago. When I do ride with friends, I could care less if they show up in cutoff jeans and ride 8 miles an hour on a Schwinn with a bananna seat and cards in the spokes.

Good luck with your picnic Spicoli. I'de suggest a keg of Michelob Ultra - nobody turns that stuff down.

Ride On !!!!!!
So true its scary, but would Tecate's or Corona work too? I am on a Mexico kick lately.

[Ken Robb]

Michelob Ultra????????? :butt: :confused: :p
I prefer beer! :beer:

[Spicoli]

I keep thinking of the Jim Brewer comedy skit where he's talkin about the party in his stomach with all the different drinks coming in. Please tell me someone knows what im talking about. Guinness is makin fun of Heinekin and thay wont let tequila in, comm'on its a good one!

[Brons2]

I'de suggest a keg of Michelob Ultra - nobody turns that stuff down.

You are banned from being in any paceline with me ever. :D

That crap is girly beer. It's what the tri-robo-chicks drink.