Just received my custom frame; it's wrong...

[macaroon]

Has anyone else been in this boat? Placed a custom frame order and waited six months (or however long) and then the frame you've received has not been built to the dimensions specified?

What did you do? How did your builder sort it?

Give me some positive stories; I was looking forward to building and riding my new bike this weekend :(

Classic first world problem I know :D

[donalrey]

My only advice is to contact the builder and try to sort it out with him/her and hopefully you guys can work something out.

I've had this happen to a friend and unfortunately it did not go too well. The builder blamed the fitter etc. I definitely lost respect for the builder after that.

[Grant McLean]

Seven made a mistake on my custom order way back,
the head tube was shorter than the QC card and spec blueprint
we're signed off on by about 1cm. I said the only acceptable outcome
was to deliver what I ordered. They were apologetic, made a
new frame in a few weeks. I still own the bike.

These discussions pop up from time to time, and the reality is the
way to handle it is to understand how you want the problem resolved
to your satisfaction, and clearly communicate this to the builder.
This is one of those things the Internet can't help you with.

-g

[Liberace]

What dimensions are off?

[macaroon]

Yeh, I've contacted the company I bought it from; they're pretty well respected and I trust they'll put it right. There was no fitter involved in my process, I just told them the sizes I wanted and left them to do the rest.

[macaroon]

Seven made a mistake on my custom order way back,
the head tube was shorter than the QC card and spec blueprint
we're signed off on by about 1cm. I said the only acceptable outcome
was to deliver what I ordered. They were apologetic, made a
new frame in a few weeks. I still own the bike.

These discussions pop up from time to time, and the reality is the
way to handle it is to understand how you want the problem resolved
to your satisfaction, and clearly communicate this to the builder.
This is one of those things the Internet can't help you with.

-g

:) Yeh, of course, I'm not looking for help, just positive vibes ;)

[macaroon]

What dimensions are off?

I haven't checked them all, but the chainstays are 15mm longer than I specced.

[fuzzalow]

I have had many custom frames built for me as the client. Both before and after the age of BikeCAD so in the early days I didn't know anything about all the measurements except seattube, toptube and seattube angle.

Sorry, I've never had a custom bike come in off spec. But if it appears your's did, off spec in what way and by how much? Because the builder may have moved your rider geometry inside the fitting envelope of the frame on purpose and for a reason. That will result in slight changes to the frame measurements. This I'd guess is not done without first consulting you, the client, but it is possible to happen however rude that might be.

Unless you are replacing an existing frame with this new one and have to have the frame geometry exactly identical because it is a straight swap, you will have to find your new balance point inside the new, different frame geometry anyway. The difference need not be great but in the bike fit game a centimeter can be a lot of distance. Again, it depends where the difference is in the frame and if you still have room left in the frames adjustment envelope to accommodate the dimensions of you contact point rider geometry.

Good luck.

[mnoble485]

Can I hit the pause button until my popcorn is ready?

Mike

[pbarry]

I haven't checked them all, but the chainstays are 15mm longer than I specced.

The builder may have used the CS number for the miter or cut off length, not the overall. Honest mistake, IMO. Hope they make things right.

[wallymann]

I haven't checked them all, but the chainstays are 15mm longer than I specced.

that's a pretty big screw-up. as long as you have the signed-off drawrings, i'd ship the frame back and say: build me what i ordered.

[fuzzalow]

I haven't checked them all, but the chainstays are 15mm longer than I specced.

So it is less a fit problem and either an outright mistake in the chainstay length or a desire on the part of the builder to transfer more weight bias to the front end of the frame which is what lengthening the chainstay will do.

Talk to the builder. On the surface 15mm is a big change but in fairness to the builder the client may have requested a unrealistically short chainstay for whatever reason and the fix decided on by the builder measured out to 15mm.

There are many factors to consider. Talk to the builder.

[rwsaunders]

I guess that I'd have to ask the builder if this particular dimension will impact your expected ride characteristics, your build, or both. I wish that I had the extra 0.15 cm on one particular frame, but it wasn't a custom for me. Tough call.

[SlackMan]

OP, by any chance, did you request clearance for much wider tires that could be accomplished by longer chainstays?

[macaroon]

So it is less a fit problem and either an outright mistake in the chainstay length or a desire on the part of the builder to transfer more weight bias to the front end of the frame which is what lengthening the chainstay will do.

Talk to the builder. On the surface 15mm is a big change but in fairness to the builder the client may have requested a unrealistically short chainstay for whatever reason and the fix decided on by the builder measured out to 15mm.

There are many factors to consider. Talk to the builder.

Thanks for the reply Fuzzalow, informative as usual.

I think this is an honest screw up; we did go over the chainstay's before I placed the order. The company was worried that tyre clearance would suffer with the shorter chainstays I'd specified. However, I told them this wasn't an issue as I'd be running no larger than 28c. I originally specced 415mm chainstays (not particularly short anyway) but the frame has arrived with 430mm stays, which is too long for me. Have yet to measure any of the other dims to see if they tally up with what I asked for,.

[velomonkey]

. I wish that I had the extra 0.15 cm on one particular frame, but it wasn't a custom for me. Tough call.

Wasn't sure you got this, but 15mm is 1.5cm - not 0.15cm - fairly substantial.

[Mikej]

I guess that I'd have to ask the builder if this particular dimension will impact your expected ride characteristics, your build, or both. I wish that I had the extra 0.15 cm on one particular frame, but it wasn't a custom for me. Tough call.

15mm = 1.5 cm - pretty big amount on ANY tube of a bike, but chain stays, holy balls that thing is long. In any case, I think it should be hashed out with the builder before the peanut gallery.

[velomonkey]

. I originally specced 415mm chainstays (not particularly short anyway) but the frame has arrived with 430mm stays, which is too long for me.

I got 415mm on my custom, too. 430mm is not insignificant for sure - probably they are getting used to building frames for 32-36-38mm tires would be my guess.

I presume there is a build sheet, if it doesn't add up, be cool, but get what you ordered.

[etu]

You're doing the right thing. 1.5cm is a significant difference especially since you discussed it with the builder. I agree with you that it is most likely an honest mistake and most people will want to do the right thing in these cases. My experience with custom builders when it came to any issues, including one that had to be sent back, was great. They usually feel bad about the mistake because they're professionals and they take pride in their work. Good luck. Expect a good resolution which hopefully you'll share.

[Kirk007]

I think most builders want happy clients, for obvious reasons and of course that's the place to start. It sounds like there is already a track record of discussion on this particular dimension and its easy to see a few scenarios where this result could occur. Out of curiosity, what led you to measure the chainstay? The few times I've gotten a custom bike I've just been too excited to do anything other than hang the parts and ride it. Sounds like maybe there was a lingering concern on your part from the start?

[fuzzalow]

Thanks for the reply Fuzzalow, informative as usual.

I think this is an honest screw up; we did go over the chainstay's before I placed the order. The company was worried that tyre clearance would suffer with the shorter chainstays I'd specified. However, I told them this wasn't an issue as I'd be running no larger than 28c. I originally specced 415mm chainstays (not particularly short anyway) but the frame has arrived with 430mm stays, which is too long for me. Have yet to measure any of the other dims to see if they tally up with what I asked for,.

Whoa! 430mm is lotsa tubing for a road bike, maybe not so bad for a touring randonneur type of bike. 430mm, hard to talk your way outta that one! That's out there! Mistakes like this are inexcusable.

Talk to the builder and have them make it right. I support builders and hate to sound harsh on them but an error of this magnitude should never have even been built much less have left their shop. Didn't stuff seem outta whack when the seatstays wound up too short too? Or did they dump numbers into CAD and never verified the specs? Who knows. It does make a builder look bad not because they made a mistake - we are all human. But because it got past any number of checkpoints to wind up in the hands of the client.

Good luck.

[etu]

I think it should be hashed out with the builder before the peanut gallery.

I think the OP is just asking for some feedback to make sure he is doing the right thing since there is a lot of experience with custom builders here. He has "outed" the builder and his issues seems real. Don't think it's fair to discourage this type of post.

[macaroon]

I think most builders want happy clients, for obvious reasons and of course that's the place to start. It sounds like there is already a track record of discussion on this particular dimension and its easy to see a few scenarios where this result could occur. Out of curiosity, what led you to measure the chainstay? The few times I've gotten a custom bike I've just been too excited to do anything other than hang the parts and ride it. Sounds like maybe there was a lingering concern on your part from the start?

Oh yeah, I was excited for sure. I actually measured the chainstay after I'd popped a back wheel in (just to make sure it all looked straight). I noticed a big gap between the rear tyre and the seat tube, thought "that doesn't look right" so I got the measure out and there it was, 430mm!

[nesteel]

Did you discuss this with your builder before you posted here? Seems like the logical place to start. I'm personally very hesitant to post in an open forum before I've given a vendor a chance to correct an issue.

[oldpotatoe]

Has anyone else been in this boat? Placed a custom frame order and waited six months (or however long) and then the frame you've received has not been built to the dimensions specified?

What did you do? How did your builder sort it?

Give me some positive stories; I was looking forward to building and riding my new bike this weekend :(

Classic first world problem I know :D

Happened with Vecchios and Calfee. Tetra Custom...customer noticed it...worse case. CalledCraig with build sheet and actual dimensions...he built a new frame as this builder should if the build sheet, approved build sheet, and frame dimensions don't match.

[oldpotatoe]

I guess that I'd have to ask the builder if this particular dimension will impact your expected ride characteristics, your build, or both. I wish that I had the extra 0.15 cm on one particular frame, but it wasn't a custom for me. Tough call.

I agree but if the builder was going to change the CS length by that much(1.5cm is a lot), a conversation should have happened pre build.

[seanile]

I agree but if the builder was going to change the CS length by that much(1.5cm is a lot), a conversation should have happened pre build.
and we're back to the moral of the story from every one of these types of threads.

builder, communicate with your customer.
customer, communicate with your builder.

[happycampyer]

Mistakes happen. Talk to pretty much any builder and they'll tell you something similar has happened to them at one point or another. A reputable builder will make it right quickly without putting up resistance.

[soulspinner]

I agree but if the builder was going to change the CS length by that much(1.5cm is a lot), a conversation should have happened pre build.

yup...

[soulspinner]

In 2003 I had a custom built and the finish was effed up. Long story short (heres the feel good part) he made good and when he saw the bike explained what happened and made it right immediately and paid for shipping both ways. Id buy another from him in a heartbeat. The bike is still fantastic.:beer:

[macaroon]

In 2003 I had a custom built and the finish was effed up. Long story short (heres the feel good part) he made good and when he saw the bike explained what happened and made it right immediately and paid for shipping both ways. Id buy another from him in a heartbeat. The bike is still fantastic.:beer:

that's the sort of stuff I want to hear :)

I don't doubt the builder; I think they'll put it right; they seem like a good bunch.

[93legendti]

Has anyone else been in this boat? Placed a custom frame order and waited six months (or however long) and then the frame you've received has not been built to the dimensions specified?

What did you do? How did your builder sort it?

Give me some positive stories; I was looking forward to building and riding my new bike this weekend :(

Classic first world problem I know :D

Happened to me a while back. It was supposed to be an exact geometry copy of a bike the builder had previously built for me, but with couplers. The seat tube angle was steeper on the new bike, contrary to the build sheet and what I wanted. Builder took the frame back.

Very disspaointing. Very frustrating, hopefully the builder will make it right. Good luck.

[Climb01742]

Happened to me once, as well. Builders are human. Spoke with the builder and he was a champ. Made me a new frame ASAP. As has been said often, it's not making a mistake that's important. It's how someone makes it right that matters. Years later I went back to that builder for another frame. How he runs his business and treats customers made me a fan. One way or another, you'll discover something in this process. Hope it goes well.

[rwsaunders]

15mm = 1.5 cm - pretty big amount on ANY tube of a bike, but chain stays, holy balls that thing is long. In any case, I think it should be hashed out with the builder before the peanut gallery.

Got it..when I saw that it's now a 430mm stay, that's somewhat of a substantial chainstay compared what the OP specified.

[eddief]

sounds really tight to me.

[David Kirk]

I assume that at some point before construction began that you and the builder 'signed off' on a final design? If that is the case and the builder didn't build the frame to the agreed upon specs then of course the builder should step up and make it right.

Did the builder share a final design with you for you to approve?

dave

[Joachim]

sounds really tight to me.

Yes you can. Easy.

[rugbysecondrow]

I had a frame which went to paint prior to the brazeons being out on. I noticed the final photos which we sent prior to shipping. I notified them immediately and it was promptly corrected. Mistakes happen with everybody, how folks manage them is what matters. Talk with these folks and see how they will
Make it right.

Custom is custom, I wouldn't except a compromise. Pay top dollar for a bespoke frame, it should be right. I wouldn't half pay and claim it is close enough.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[macaroon]

Happened to me once, as well. Builders are human. Spoke with the builder and he was a champ. Made me a new frame ASAP. As has been said often, it's not making a mistake that's important. It's how someone makes it right that matters. Years later I went back to that builder for another frame. How he runs his business and treats customers made me a fan. One way or another, you'll discover something in this process. Hope it goes well.

I completely agree. It looks like this may be a short lived one anyway, they've already contacted me with several options:

Discount on the frame
Build it and ride it whilst they work out a solution
Return it so it can be sorted out.

I'm just going to return it as I don't want to build up a frame with new parts that'll then have to be dismantled again. They're collecting it tomorrow, and I guess I'll get a response as to what they're planning next week.

[EPIC! Stratton]

and we're back to the moral of the story from every one of these types of threads.

builder, communicate with your customer.
customer, communicate with your builder.

This. :banana:

[macaroon]

I assume that at some point before construction began that you and the builder 'signed off' on a final design? If that is the case and the builder didn't build the frame to the agreed upon specs then of course the builder should step up and make it right.

Did the builder share a final design with you for you to approve?

dave

Yeh, I saw the final design sheet. The paint work is correct, the dimensions aren't.

Looks like it's all being sorted now anyway; I'll update this next week when they receive my frame, just so you all know the outcome.

[David Kirk]

Yeh, I saw the final design sheet. The paint work is correct, the dimensions aren't.

Looks like it's all being sorted now anyway; I'll update this next week when they receive my frame, just so you all know the outcome.

Cool - mistakes happen and it's how they are handled after the fact that is really telling.

dave

[e-RICHIE]

Yeh, I saw the final design sheet. The paint work is correct, the dimensions aren't.

Looks like it's all being sorted now anyway; I'll update this next week when they receive my frame, just so you all know the outcome.

pbarry mentioned it (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=1801722&postcount=10) already; are you measuring the length from the bb center to the hub along the chainstay with a rule, or the virtual center line of the rear wheelbase? They'll never be the same. And it's nearly impossible to measure the latter once the frame is built. Good luck there.

[zank]

I bet the builder will have no problem with you building it up and riding it until the new frame is built.

[jr59]

I have had it happen twice on 2 different frames, by 2 different builders.

One time didn't work out very well. Builder no longer in business.

The other time, The builder sent a Fed-ex lable to be that same day. He made everything right. Couldn't have been happier!

Builders are people, and people make mistakes. It's how you handle those mistakes that make the difference.

[eddief]

might never have an f-ing clue about. me=average joe.

pbarry mentioned it (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=1801722&postcount=10) already; are you measuring the length from the bb center to the hub along the chainstay with a rule, or the virtual center line of the rear wheelbase? They'll never be the same. And it's nearly impossible to measure the latter once the frame is built. Good luck there.

[fuzzalow]

This is comical. Obfuscation over invented complexities given solely to the conjured definition as to method of measurement of a chainstay.

So what I believed to be a standard measurement of the chainstay isn't necessarily so - if you don't want to measure it that way as is commonly measured. Usually defined as measured along the length of the chainstay itself with end points at the center of the BB and the rear axle.

No, let's measure the chainstay as using the virtual line along the entire wheelbase measurement bifurcated at the vertical axis located at the centerline of the bottom bracket. The rear part is the chainstay. Really?

If this is considered being enlightened, you can keep it. Whatta buncha jokers.

[merlinmurph]

As has been said often, it's not making a mistake that's important. It's how someone makes it right that matters.

This.
The Golden Rule.

[velomonkey]

This is comical. Obfuscation over invented complexities given solely to the conjured definition as to method of measurement of a chainstay.


Fuzz my man, on this we park our car in the same garage.

I'll just add, this is timely given the announcement of "hey, check out and buy your bike online - just have the LBS assemble it."

I can see it now . . . .

"Oh the bike doesn't fit, you measured there . . . . . . no, no, no. You measure here, then clamp your butt cheeks and hold this level and make sure it's at a -23 degree and then measure horizontally, not actually horizontally, but effectively . . . that's how you measure to see if it fits. What do you mean your butt cheeks couldn't hold the level? I thought you were a bike rider, no?"

[macaroon]

pbarry mentioned it (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=1801722&postcount=10) already; are you measuring the length from the bb center to the hub along the chainstay with a rule, or the virtual center line of the rear wheelbase? They'll never be the same. And it's nearly impossible to measure the latter once the frame is built. Good luck there.

Yeh, measuring along the stay; centre of wheel axle to centre of BB; that's the standard way of measuring CS length isn't it?

[macaroon]

:d this is comical. Obfuscation over invented complexities given solely to the conjured definition as to method of measurement of a chainstay.

So what i believed to be a standard measurement of the chainstay isn't necessarily so - if you don't want to measure it that way as is commonly measured. Usually defined as measured along the length of the chainstay itself with end points at the center of the bb and the rear axle.

No, let's measure the chainstay as using the virtual line along the entire wheelbase measurement bifurcated at the vertical axis located at the centerline of the bottom bracket. The rear part is the chainstay. Really?

If this is considered being enlightened, you can keep it. Whatta buncha jokers.

[David Kirk]

So.....the math.......

If the distance from the BB centerline perpendicular rearward to the rear axle centerline (typically known as 'chainstay length') is 415 mm and one measures in line with the chainstay from BB center to axle center you will get 420 mm. This of course is because you are measuring a diagonal and not along the centerline of the bike. If you do the math you will get 420 in the diagonal assuming the rear spacing is 130 mm.

So yes one can measure it the "wrong" way and get a different number but 5 mm is much different that 15 mm.

I'm sure it was a simple mistake that caused the issue and anyone that's built at least one bike has made at least one mistake and I'm sure the builder will sort it out.

dave

[ergott]

This is comical. Obfuscation over invented complexities given solely to the conjured definition as to method of measurement of a chainstay.

Just put Rich on your ignore list already. :(

He happens to be right. Bikes are drafted 2 dimensionally. Bike Cad can then compute the rest if you go that route.

Just to verify, my Serotta has 40.5cm stays. When I take a tape to it, it measures longer along the tube since that is the hypotenuse measurement.

The error isn't 1.5cm, more like 0.5cm since I have the crank and BB on.

It can be measured more accurately by simply adding offset to the BB equal to the centerline to outside edge of dropout measurement. Or you could do the trig.

[ergott]

Kirk wins the quick fingers race.

:beer:

[numbskull]

This is comical. Obfuscation over invented complexities given solely to the conjured definition as to method of measurement of a chainstay.
.

Why such a vituperative response?

It is hardly comical since the handling of the bike depends upon getting the dimension right. The diameter of the wheel, distance of the rear axle behind the center of mass of the rider, and the wheel base of the bike are measured along the center line. The actual length of the chainstays will obviously depend on the OLD of the specified hub (think of a fat bike frame for example).

At very least the two posts that make mention of the difference will help others trying the same way of having a frame built avoid the same miscommunication.

Seems helpful, not comical.

[velomonkey]

Are handle bars measured center to center or outside to outside? One way here, one way over there. I have yet to find someone who does center to outside, but I bet I can find 'em.

Forget measuring, press BB or threaded BB - that one will go on indefinitely.

[e-RICHIE]

Yeh, measuring along the stay; centre of wheel axle to centre of BB; that's the standard way of measuring CS length isn't it?

When I fixture for a drawing that has a 41.5cm rear length, and you then measure a chainstay in that same bicycle after its delivered, your ruler will read nearer to 42.2cm. That's the difference between the absolute center between the bb to an axle point versus measuring it at an angle with components and shapes in the way.

[eddief]

can't wait for the truth.

When I fixture for a drawing that has a 41.5cm rear length, and you then measure a chainstay in that same bicycle after its delivered, your ruler will read nearer to 42.7cm. That's the difference between the absolute center between the bb to an axle point versus measuring it at an angle with components and shapes in the way.

[oldpotatoe]

[QUOTE=ergott;1801986]Just put Rich on your ignore list already.

:hello::beer::eek:/QUOTE]

[gospastic]

How can the difference be that much?

[Louis]

So, it comes down to

1) What is the "standard" way to define CS length (if there is such a thing)?

2) Is that what the OP wanted?

3) Is that what the builder interpreted based on what was on the agreed-to drawing?

4) Is that what the OP measured on the completed frame?

There are several ways to get differences along the line for the various folks involved.

[54ny77]

It stretched during shipping.

Happens all the time if the bike box is not properly insulated. This guy thought he was buying a beach cruiser online from an Alibaba seller, and look what happened:

http://www.m-bike.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/chameleon.jpg



How can the difference be that much?

[macaroon]

:o

God, what have I started......

I wish the builder had told me I'd need to revisit my trigonometry I was taught at school to work out my chainstay length :D

[e-RICHIE]

can't wait for the truth.

See my edit. I'm on the road, typing from a remote. The difference would be 6mms -7mms depending exactly (sic) where on the diagonal you measured from and to.

Did the OP sign off on a frame drawing, or on a drawing of a person holding a ruler next to the side of a bicycle? No snark intended.

[velomonkey]

Can we see a picture - if it looks like this you might have a long chain stay (and a relaxed seat, not sure)

[ergott]

:o

God, what have I started......

I wish the builder had told me I'd need to revisit my trigonometry I was taught at school to work out my chainstay length :D

If you take a closer look at how you are measuring you can get a better idea of the triangulation with this.

http://www.pagetutor.com/trigcalc/trig.html

Actually it's just Pythagorean theory (a squared + b squared = c squared). Just know the rear stay (130mm?) width and half it. Add the thickness of the dropout. I'd guess that total is about 68mm. If you are measuring along the stay to the center of the BB, subtract half the shell width (presumably 34mm). Now you have one side (34mm). Square that, add the 415mm stay and then take its square root. You should get 416.4mm. That will at least get you ballpark if the frame is indeed 10mm too long.

[ergott]

If it makes you feel better, Sapim measures spokes to the inside of the elbow. DT measures to the center of the elbow making them 1mm shorter than the equivalent Sapim.

:crap:

[54ny77]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ro4yhp9L6Ok


Can we see a picture - if it looks like this you might have a long chain stay (and a relaxed seat, not sure)
http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=1697904765&stc=1&d=1438892271

[Schmed]

This is comical. Obfuscation over invented complexities given solely to the conjured definition as to method of measurement of a chainstay.

Can somebody translate this for the engineer in the house?

(my High School teacher preached "clear and concise writing trumps all".)

[bironi]

Can somebody translate this for the engineer in the house?

(my High School teacher preached "clear and concise writing trumps all".)

Fuzziness is allowed per the poster's handle.

[professerr]

Can somebody translate this for the engineer in the house?

(my High School teacher preached "clear and concise writing trumps all".)

Both could use a little quiet time to read and reflect on this: http://www.newrepublic.com/article/73258/george-orwells-politics-and-english-language-guide-writing

Unfortunately, ignor lists are only a partial fix.

[Schmed]

Fuzziness is allowed per the poster's handle.

I'm just kidding. It takes my brain a few times to contemplate Fuzz's writing.

[PQJ]

This thread is another reminder of why we need a "Like" button or similar. Some funny responses even if I don't necessarily agree with the sentiments expressed.

Mods?!?!?!?!?!?!? :crap::crap::crap:

[Climb01742]

I just looked at a drawing I have of a custom frame design by a well known builder. In the drawing, the chain stay is measured from the center of the BB to the center of the dropouts, measured along the CS. Is there a different way to measure it? Can't you take this same measurement on a finished frame before hanging parts on it?

Is part of the confusion that what is simple in a drawing is harder to explain in words? The whole picture worth a thousand word thing?

Let's not even get started on how the length of stems are measured. :-)

[palincss]

.

[palincss]

might never have an f-ing clue about. me=average joe.

Measuring along the chain stay is measuring the hypotenuse, whereas measuring along the center line of the bike is measuring along the leg of the triangle. The wider the rear triangle is, the longer the hypotenuse will be.

[fuzzalow]

Me oh my goodness me. Such angst over nothing inflamed by passions of all kindred sorts.

The different way framebuilders, amongst themselves, might refer to how chainstays get measured doesn't matter one bit when they are talking to their client. And every bicycle products consumer is perfectly aware of how a chainstay is measured. The responsibility in speaking the common language is not up to the client but up to the builder. As a client I neither need to know nor do I care what adjustments have to be done by the builder to convert linear measurement to account for the tubing length increases due to angularity in building a frame. It isn't rocket science but it also isn't my job.
Brett: "What?"
Jules: *Overturns table* "What country you from?"
Brett: "W-W-What?"
Jules: "'What' ain't no country I ever heard of! They speak English in 'What'?"
Brett: "...What?"
Jules: "ENGLISH, MOTHERF****R! DO YOU SPEAK IT?!"
Brett: "YES!"
Jules: "Then you know what I'm sayin'?!"
To suggest that it is in this area that a breakdown in communication occurred because the client wasn't speaking the builder's language is ridiculous. In the common language of bike geometry charts, the chainstay is a linear measurement along the length of the stay. Why is there even ambiguity over this?

Just put Rich on your ignore list already. :(
And miss the inanity that periodically spews forth? I have no one on an ignore list. Not him. Not even you. I read fast. Say what you gotta say. Honestly, anytime I have something I wrote challenged, that person is doing me a favor because I'd welcome being corrected if I was wrong. So take your best shot, I won't get upset.

He happens to be right. Bikes are drafted 2 dimensionally. Bike Cad can then compute the rest if you go that route.

Yes, factually correct in joinery of tubing but completely wrong if speaking to a client in this way.

The OP's builder made a very expensive mistake. Lost expense in a tubing set materials, braze & fittings and sunk time in reconstructing a new frame. I trust they will make it right.

[palincss]

It stretched during shipping.

Happens all the time if the bike box is not properly insulated.

This Pinarello was shipped in an uninsulated box, and as you can see, the fork and the seat stays melted.

http://brimages.bikeboardmedia.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/2010-pinarello-dogma-red.jpg

[palincss]

Can somebody translate this for the engineer in the house?

(my High School teacher preached "clear and concise writing trumps all".)

I think he meant "He made it up to confuse me."

[Louis]

This Pinarello was shipped in an uninsulated box, and as you can see, the fork and the seat stays melted.

That's what happens when you use a thermoplastic instead of a thermoset polymer. :no:

[ultraman6970]

15 mm in length in a lot man... just to start the wheelbase is longer, if the OP is racing the bike will handle like an 18 wheeler instead of what he wants.

No idea if the op measured the BB drop (or height from the ground that is easier) but there is a chance that it might be off aswell. If off... the fit wont be as he wanted to be, then you have to start moving stuff back and forth till he gets it right. Sure the OP is used to one fit and he just wanted to have a bike like he wants to ride it.

Wish the OP the best of lucks to get this solved, for 5 mm I wouldnt be like a super big deal but 15 mm is a lot, and sure will be noticeable in the ride.



I don't understand how 15mm of additional length in the chain stays would be "too long" (other than not being 415). Can you explain how the additional length would negatively affect either the fit or the handling of the bike? (Note: I'm not disagreeing with you, I am saying I don't understand how that would work.)

[54ny77]

Now that's a real shame when folks shipping away a perfectly good eye-talian bike like that.

This Pinarello was shipped in an uninsulated box, and as you can see, the fork and the seat stays melted.

http://brimages.bikeboardmedia.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/2010-pinarello-dogma-red.jpg

[Peter P.]

I just looked at the drawing sent to me by the builder of my last custom frame; the chainstay was spec'd two-dimensionally, and that's how I typically measure them. It's just easier to understand, especially for the lay person.

On that same frame, I asked for non-threaded shifter cable stops on the headtube. The frame arrived with the non-threaded stops, but they were on the downtube. It wasn't a deal breaker and I was only slightly disappointed, and the builder admitted he meant to discuss his with me but obviously never did. I'm sure some customers would have returned the frame, and the repair costs would have eaten into the builder's income. Not a good thing.

Mistakes aside, it pays to discuss everything with the customer. And that's why blueprints or order forms for the customer to sign off on are a good thing.

[ergott]

As a client I neither need to know nor do I care what adjustments have to be done by the builder to convert linear measurement to account for the tubing length increases due to angularity in building a frame.

So did you change your chainstay length preference when road bikes went from 126mm to 130mm OLD?

I've never seen a build sheet or geo chart for public consumption that isn't measured linearly. By all means show me one.

[David Kirk]

There is nothing difficult or complex or beyond the reach of the average person when it comes to measuring c-stay length.......we're not talking rocket surgery here.

Hold a pencil up in the rear drops with one hand (I used tape to free up a hand for the camera) and then hold a ruler up so that it sits in the middle of the pencil and then rest the other end on top of the BB shell. Now read the number where the ruler touches the shell. Getting a number +/- 1 mm this way is down and dirty easy. No voodoo or black magic required........just a pencil, a ruler and 3 minutes of time.

I can see no reason why anyone would measure on a diagonal and work around cranks and derailleurs and all of that. This same thing can be done with all the parts in place aside from the rear wheel - take out the wheel, put in a pencil, hold up the ruler, know your c-stay length.

Now everyone is an 'expert'.

dave

[rwsaunders]

^ Dave...do you inhale or exhale when you measure a chainstay? :rolleyes:

[fuzzalow]

So did you change your chainstay length preference when road bikes went from 126mm to 130mm OLD?

I do not have a chainstay preference. I have always left that decision solely to the purview of the builder I've requested of in completing my commission.

I've never seen a build sheet or geo chart for public consumption that isn't measured linearly. By all means show me one.

HaHa! In responding to me please read again; I was speaking in terms of a linear measurement!

As consistent and would be the norm for any discussion by bike enthusiasts world-wide in a discussion about chainstay lengths. It was only via goofy tangent brought up by your presumptive spiritual leader did the conversation veer off into never-neverland to marvel at the complexities of highschool trigonometry and the conceit of jargon applicable and relevant to only himself as a builder.

Your misplaced repost here to me is most perfectly applicable as a response to him. Touche and well done.

[makoti]

Interesting. I would never have measured it like that. The things I learn here. Wondering...how much is the difference between what you did & right down the CS?

There is nothing difficult or complex or beyond the reach of the average person when it comes to measuring c-stay length.......we're not talking rocket surgery here.

Hold a pencil up in the rear drops with one hand (I used tape to free up a hand for the camera) and then hold a ruler up so that it sits in the middle of the pencil and then rest the other end on top of the BB shell. Now read the number where the ruler touches the shell. Getting a number +/- 1 mm this way is down and dirty easy. No voodoo or black magic required........just a pencil, a ruler and 3 minutes of time.

I can see no reason why anyone would measure on a diagonal and work around cranks and derailleurs and all of that. This same thing can be done with all the parts in place aside from the rear wheel - take out the wheel, put in a pencil, hold up the ruler, know your c-stay length.

Now everyone is an 'expert'.

dave

[velomonkey]

Bikes are drafted 2 dimensionally.

2 Dimensions. So cute. Go deeper, Fuzz is at like 6 dimensions, at least.

[Climb01742]

actually, bikes are drafted in three dimensions, because drafts usually go through revisions, making time the third dimension.:D:beer:

[wallymann]

When I fixture for a drawing that has a 41.5cm rear length, and you then measure a chainstay in that same bicycle after its delivered, your ruler will read nearer to 42.2cm. That's the difference between the absolute center between the bb to an axle point versus measuring it at an angle with components and shapes in the way.

your number is slightly long, but close enuf for gubmet work and hand-made bicycles.

for grins:
- one side of that chainstay-pair is a right triangle, so A^2 + B^2 = C^2
- sqrt( 41.5^2 + 7.5^2) = 42.0...voici!

[David Kirk]

Interesting. I would never have measured it like that. The things I learn here. Wondering...how much is the difference between what you did & right down the CS?

I don't know how to answer this because I don't know where I'm measuring from and to.....there are no 'hard points' to reference and no way to make it so that if you did it and then I did it that we'd get the same number. This is why measuring down the stay can cause issues.

Just for the sake of argument I held one end of the ruler near the outer plain of the BB shell and guessed its center and then measured parallel to the c-stay until I got to my pencil and I got a number 5 mm longer than the center-to-center distance.......which is what the math says I should get. In this case this bike has a C-C distance of 405 and the super vague outside center to someplace that looks like the axle center near the dropout is 410.

Center to center is the only way to get it right and you eliminate all the guess work and variables like rear spacing (the wider the spacing the more difference you'll get between the two numbers) and c-stay length (the shorter the stays the bigger the delta between the real number and the guestimate) and since it's so easy to get it right there's no reason to guess and make up numbers.

dave

[David Kirk]

^ Dave...do you inhale or exhale when you measure a chainstay? :rolleyes:

Spin around three times and a bit of salt over the shoulder.......

dave

[bcroslin]

Threads like this are why I keep coming back to PL. I laughed, I cried, I learned how to measure chainstays. :hello:

[jmeloy]

why such a vituperative response?

It is hardly comical since the handling of the bike depends upon getting the dimension right. The diameter of the wheel, distance of the rear axle behind the center of mass of the rider, and the wheel base of the bike are measured along the center line. The actual length of the chainstays will obviously depend on the old of the specified hub (think of a fat bike frame for example).

At very least the two posts that make mention of the difference will help others trying the same way of having a frame built avoid the same miscommunication.

Seems helpful, not comical.

+11

[weisan]

Spin around three times and a bit of salt over the shoulder.......

dave

dave pal, i think even your well-tested ritual is powerless in the face of ....

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-tCuEVF9ic14/Uw-pDBSylyI/AAAAAAAAAbQ/GvyCfMynlZ4/s1600/C4_Carbon.jpg

[jmeloy]

Richard, Mike and Dave,
Thanks for participating on topics such as this. A lot of us really appreciate your input.

[parris]

Dave is that the left shoulder or right shoulder? Iodized salt or kosher? Clockwise or counterclockwise? These are the BIG questions and secrets that beg to be answered!

[e-RICHIE]

Richard, Mike and Dave,
Thanks for participating on topics such as this. A lot of us really appreciate your input.


You're welcome.

My contribution was to let some know that the number many of us work with is a true center line, not the actual measurement that folks take after a bicycle is delivered. Yeah. The latter method is valid, but I've never known anyone to use it, and then work backwards to get it when drawing or fixturing a frame. I'll add that most systems I'm aware of that come with a rule affixed to them are measuring that virtual distance I referenced. If my Bike Machinery rear wheelbase is set to 42cm (a typical default here) the client will see a longer measurement if he checks it the "other way". And none of this is smoke and mirrors, or obfuscating, or inanity, or me talking to a client "a certain way..", or even framebuilder jargon. At the end of the day, I chimed in to ask, or chat with the OP, about how he made the conclusion that contrasted what he has with what he expected. If the spec he wanted was a measurement (let's say 42cm for grins and giggles) and expressed it his way, and the maker set the fixture to 42cm, well then it all makes sense.

I don't know why Fuzzalow singles out my replies out and tees off on them with such exuberance and regularity. But he does. Some day we'll meet personally and I'm sure he'll be gracious and polite as most people are when they don't have a keyboard handy.

[Climb01742]

My contribution was to let some know that the number many of us work with is a true center line, not the actual measurement that folks take after a bicycle is delivered.

Ah-ha, the light bulb just went off, between your words and Dave's photo. Now I get what the center is and more importantly, where it is. I was thinking of a frame from the side, versus seeing the rear triangle (or more accurately, the two CSs) from above. I'm a little slow on the uptake.;) I can now see why measuring the actual CS results in a slightly longer number.

It's funny. Seeing so many, two dimensional side-view drawings of frames, you begin to conceptualize of them that way. Which is, of course, limiting. While youz guys -- the builders -- deal daily with 3 dimensional, multi-plane objects, and thus 'see' them that way. Took me awhile to get there.

To echo others, thanks Richie and Dave for the 411.

[Anarchist]

I don't know why Fuzzalow singles out my replies out and tees off on them with such exuberance and regularity. But he does. Some day we'll meet personally and I'm sure he'll be gracious and polite as most people are when they don't have a keyboard handy.

Don't worry, you are not the only one.

I don't get it either but must make him feel better.

[djg21]

Can somebody translate this for the engineer in the house?

(my High School teacher preached "clear and concise writing trumps all".)

"Any fool can make something complicated. It takes a genius to make it simple."

― Woody Guthrie

[palincss]

Now that we've seen how ambiguity regarding how chainstay length is measured can lead to confusion, here's another one, less subtle. Not theoretical, I saw this frame in my bike shop a month or two ago.

Customer specified a top tube length. Builder built that length. Frame had a sloping top tube and customer specified length of the sloping tube, while the builder believed the customer was specifying the length of the virtual horizontal top tube.

Same triangle issue, only the difference was much greater resulting in a frame that simply couldn't be made to fit.

[rustychisel]

Please send all wrong frames to me for evaluation and proper disposal (except that abomination Weisan posted, it just makes my head hurt). :crap:

[Keith A]

Richard, Mike and Dave,
Thanks for participating on topics such as this. A lot of us really appreciate your input.Agreed...thanks for sharing your experience with us.

[Louis]

Customer specified a top tube length. Builder built that length. Frame had a sloping top tube and customer specified length of the sloping tube, while the builder believed the customer was specifying the length of the virtual horizontal top tube.

That's pretty bad.

Any time you have a sloping top tube everyone knows there's the physical dimension along the TT and what most folks call the virtual TT.

[charliedid]

Has anyone else been in this boat? Placed a custom frame order and waited six months (or however long) and then the frame you've received has not been built to the dimensions specified?

What did you do? How did your builder sort it?

Give me some positive stories; I was looking forward to building and riding my new bike this weekend :(

Classic first world problem I know :D

How's it ride?

[cnighbor1]

''frame has not been built to the dimensions specified?''
One question I have would the dimensions you asked for result in a frame that preforms correctly for intended purpose
Maybe frame builder felt it wouldn't and changed dimensions to to do just that
However he should have stopped the build till he checked with you before making changes
Charles Nighbor
Walnut Creek, CA USA

[ergott]

Usually defined as measured along the length of the chainstay itself with end points at the center of the BB and the rear axle.


In the common language of bike geometry charts, the chainstay is a linear measurement along the length of the stay. Why is there even ambiguity over this?



Yes, factually correct in joinery of tubing but completely wrong if speaking to a client in this way.




HaHa! In responding to me please read again; I was speaking in terms of a linear measurement!

As consistent and would be the norm for any discussion by bike enthusiasts world-wide in a discussion about chainstay lengths. It was only via goofy tangent brought up by your presumptive spiritual leader did the conversation veer off into never-neverland to marvel at the complexities of highschool trigonometry and the conceit of jargon applicable and relevant to only himself as a builder.


The linear measurement I and everyone else here is describing is not the same as how you say you measure chainstays. OP measures bike like you do, frame builders explain to him how his measurement will conclude longer than how a frame is correctly measured and yet you still write all you did above.

Takes a lot of class to a write presumption about me like I put in bold. You really have no clue about me. If you did you wouldn't have written that.

By the way, thank you David for showing the simplest, most practical way for a consumer to measure chain stays to confirm a build sheet or geometry chart measurement.

[ergott]

Now that we've seen how ambiguity regarding how chainstay length is measured can lead to confusion, here's another one, less subtle. Not theoretical, I saw this frame in my bike shop a month or two ago.

Customer specified a top tube length. Builder built that length. Frame had a sloping top tube and customer specified length of the sloping tube, while the builder believed the customer was specifying the length of the virtual horizontal top tube.

Same triangle issue, only the difference was much greater resulting in a frame that simply couldn't be made to fit.

How were the words "effective top tube" left out of the conversations? Seems that would trigger someone that something was up before the frame was built.

I haven't worked with a lot of frame builders, but all the ones I have use frame drawings with both if the top tube isn't horizontal. Most geometry charts I've seen have "effective top tube".

[beeatnik]

This is comical. Obfuscation over invented complexities given solely to the conjured definition as to method of measurement of a chainstay.


Can somebody translate this for the engineer in the house?

(my High School teacher preached "clear and concise writing trumps all".)


Eschew obfuscation.

Interestingly enough, in Fuzzeseses's thread, where he solicited reasons for posting on the Paceline, he mentioned the writing process as one of his motivations. Apparently, someone encourages him to transform his psychic energy into the written word. Or something like that. Anyway, his writing style is idiosyncratic, to say the least, and it allows me to exercise my highly refined reading comprehension capacities (I end up reading each of his posts about 5x for clarity). That said, if anyone is interested in reading some good writing, check out Mr. Sach's posts in the Smoked Out section of the V Spot.

[Peter B]

<snip>

It was only via goofy tangent brought up by your presumptive spiritual leader did the conversation veer off into never-neverland to marvel at the complexities of highschool trigonometry and the conceit of jargon applicable and relevant to only himself as a builder.



Why obfuscate the conversation by making presumptions about anyone's spirituality?

[velomonkey]

. . . in the Smoked Out section of the V Spot.

In college, one time, just for a brief moment with this one lady, nay, woman . . I found that area and it was, in a word, sublime. All manner of time and space ceased to have any relevance or meaning. Emotionally, there is no word in the English language that I am aware of that truly pegs what I felt. It was an amazing, wonderful, and terrible feeling. "Pleasure" is a small and insignificant word next to what I felt at the very center of not only my being, but of her being. . . . .



Oh wait . . . . you're talking about across the hall. Jeez, why didn't you just say that. Man, now I gotta get my head out of the clouds and back on bikes. All this damn talk about measuring chain stays . . . .

So . . . . um, what's the verdict OP - are the chain stays legit or not?

[gasman]

Dave ,Mike and Richard. I also thank you for bringing clarity to this issue. I believe you three as builders over whatever anyone else has to say about the issue.

It sound like the OP is going to get what he wanted and we should drop it at this point.

[macaroon]

I thought I'd do everyone a favour, so I've put together the attached drawing; hopefully it'll put the matter to bed ;)

The top sketch is what I received, the bottom is what I should have received. The green lines are the chainstays. I hope that clears it up.

[palincss]

That's pretty bad.

Any time you have a sloping top tube everyone knows there's the physical dimension along the TT and what most folks call the virtual TT.

And then there was the time somebody had a frame builder relocate the cantilever posts for "650" brakes. The frame builder thought he meant 650C, but the customer meant 650B...

[Pegoready]

I thought I'd do everyone a favour, so I've put together the attached drawing; hopefully it'll put the matter to bed ;)

The top sketch is what I received, the bottom is what I should have received. The green lines are the chainstays. I hope that clears it up.

Wow, I noticed the 145 rear spacing. Is this a tandem? The question of wheelbase and handling of a short chainstay become much less relevant if so. A longer chainstay on a tandem is a smaller % of the overall wheelbase than a single.

Also, by measuring the linear chainstay the builder is only off 11 mm not 15 mm. I think 415 mm stays is asking a lot to clear every 28 comfortably. Maybe he added a few mm in the build to give you some more tire room thinking it wouldn't be a big deal.

[macaroon]

Wow, I noticed the 145 rear spacing. Is this a tandem? The question of wheelbase and handling of a short chainstay become much less relevant if so. A longer chainstay on a tandem is a smaller % of the overall wheelbase than a single.

Also, by measuring the linear chainstay the builder is only off 11 mm not 15 mm. I think 415 mm stays is asking a lot to clear every 28 comfortably. Maybe he added a few mm in the build to give you some more tire room thinking it wouldn't be a big deal.

No, It's not a tandem. It's a disc braked road bike with a 135mm rear spacing. The 145mm accounts for the dropout thickness (I guessed about 5mm either side)

[oldpotatoe]

Eschew obfuscation.

Interestingly enough, in Fuzzeseses's thread, where he solicited reasons for posting on the Paceline, he mentioned the writing process as one of his motivations. Apparently, someone encourages him to transform his psychic energy into the written word. Or something like that. Anyway, his writing style is idiosyncratic, to say the least, and it allows me to exercise my highly refined reading comprehension capacities (I end up reading each of his posts about 5x for clarity). That said, if anyone is interested in reading some good writing, check out Mr. Sach's posts in the Smoked Out section of the V Spot.

Only 5....:eek:

Agree...

[fuzzalow]

For all the pertinent posts that preceded this one that voiced displeasure in some form about me I can offer no response. I can't and won't take on any reply to your piling on of personal gripes and grievances, real or imagined. To respond to your personal attacks with anything other than silence would make me as guilty as the mob welling in this thread yelling in my direction. What could I say that would make you happy or salve your discontent? What you want is a battle of personalities and not a discussion of whatever the hell was being discussed before the thread went cluster.

I'll even be forthright in conceding that I could take a different approach to this forum if there was genuine transgressions on my part in making this so. Some of you I already know why you hold a grudge and from those perceived slights I don't care if you carry that pettiness for the rest of your days. At least I know where you stand. Some of you others, I just don't know. Lotta people in this world and you can't like everybody. None of this is life or death and tomorrow's another day.

I will respond only to points made indirectly at me by whom has amounted as my chief adversary in this thread:

My contribution was to let some know that the number many of us work with is a true center line, not the actual measurement that folks take after a bicycle is delivered. Yeah. The latter method is valid, but I've never known anyone to use it, and then work backwards to get it when drawing or fixturing a frame. I'll add that most systems I'm aware of that come with a rule affixed to them are measuring that virtual distance I referenced. If my Bike Machinery rear wheelbase is set to 42cm (a typical default here) the client will see a longer measurement if he checks it the "other way". And none of this is smoke and mirrors, or obfuscating, or inanity, or me talking to a client "a certain way..", or even framebuilder jargon. At the end of the day, I chimed in to ask, or chat with the OP, about how he made the conclusion that contrasted what he has with what he expected. If the spec he wanted was a measurement (let's say 42cm for grins and giggles) and expressed it his way, and the maker set the fixture to 42cm, well then it all makes sense.

Obfuscation because the methods and tools you/builders use are irrelevant to the OP's circumstances. It is not a client's concern to know a builder's pratfalls in fabrication.

You are making excuses for the incompetence of a builder to make the proper adjustments to his build measurements in order to deliver a specification as promised in satisfying the client's product measurement. Nothing more and nothing less.

I don't know why Fuzzalow singles out my replies out and tees off on them with such exuberance and regularity. But he does. Some day we'll meet personally and I'm sure he'll be gracious and polite as most people are when they don't have a keyboard handy.
In this forum I am permitted a contrary opinion. I exercise that privilege.

Were we to meet anyday I would extend you only the most perfunctory of etiquettes and that day will never come.

[fuzzalow]

Why obfuscate the conversation by making presumptions about anyone's spirituality?

The use of the term "spiritual leader" was employed to mock ergott for his ready defense of eRITCHIE in advising me to:
Just put Rich on your ignore list already. :(
For which ergott promptly repaid my mockery with mock outrage of his own in trying to incorrectly accuse my post of somehow slurring him on some deeply held essence of his being. There was no intimation whatsoever of any sort of religious insult in the intent and wording of what I wrote. I will, however, plead guilty for playing for far too much nuance in wording than some were capable of discerning as far as what I said.

The word spiritual is not synonymous with the meaning of the word ecclesiastical.

P.S. I am adding this comment here as I wish not to call any attention to this thread by bumping it with a new post. But I also want to add to the public record of this entire cluster with the intent of being fair - although I am not doing the recipient any favors and this will likely be seen by certain cliques as to his detriment.

I can disagree with persons and yet still respect them and this is the case between me and ergott. He has likewise voiced his opinion in a direct discussion at me in a mature and mutually respectful manner. Fairly and accountably while addressing the topic at hand and in this instance better than I. With this quality I am grateful. I regret mocking ergott for his loyalty to e-RITCHIE as it seems a cheap shot in the clarity of hindsight. I apologize.

Everything else I posted stands as written and of that I have no regret or remorse.

[Keith A]

Ok, we've had enough bickering in this thread...if we don't get back to the point of discussing the issue at hand, then this discussion is done!

[93legendti]

dave ,mike and richard. I also thank you for bringing clarity to this issue. I believe you three as builders over whatever anyone else has to say about the issue.

It sound like the op is going to get what he wanted and we should drop it at this point.

+1

[fuzzalow]

Ok, we've had enough bickering in this thread...if we don't get back to the point of discussing the issue at hand, then this discussion is done!

Sorry Keith. I thought I was allowed at least a response to the pile-on that was permitted to proceed unabated.

That's all for me on this one. See you at the next stop.

[OtayBW]

Respectfully request that we implement a 'head-slap', 'face-palm', or similar smiley into this forum posthaste. Nevermind: this will do....:crap:

[Joachim]

Writing so much to say so very little.... Can't we just call it passive aggressive and be done with it?

What's happening with the frame? Update please.

[Joachim]

I thought I'd do everyone a favour, so I've put together the attached drawing; hopefully it'll put the matter to bed ;)

The top sketch is what I received, the bottom is what I should have received. The green lines are the chainstays. I hope that clears it up.

Awesome :). Some on here can use visual aids.

[palincss]

Obfuscation because the methods and tools you/builders use are irrelevant to the OP's circumstances. It is not a client's concern to know a builder's pratfalls in fabrication.

You are making excuses for the incompetence of a builder to make the proper adjustments to his build measurements in order to deliver a specification as promised in satisfying the client's product measurement. Nothing more and nothing less.


Actually, eRichie was crystal clear. You are the one who is obfuscating. Put away your thesaurus for a while. As for alleged incompetence - I think if a customer is going to specify chain stay length down to the mm then they should know how builders measure chain stay length.

[Keith A]

This is my second warning -- let's move on from who said what...please.

[ergott]

I thought I'd do everyone a favour, so I've put together the attached drawing; hopefully it'll put the matter to bed ;)

The top sketch is what I received, the bottom is what I should have received. The green lines are the chainstays. I hope that clears it up.

Sounds like you are getting taken care of and ultimately that's the most important thing. Glad it's being worked out!

:beer:

[seanile]

fuzz, are you a lawyer? you talk like a layer. i feel like im reading terms & conditions when i read your posts. where's the "i agree/disagree" button?

[beeatnik]

In college, one time, just for a brief moment with this one lady, nay, woman . . I found that area and it was, in a word, sublime. All manner of time and space ceased to have any relevance or meaning. Emotionally, there is no word in the English language that I am aware of that truly pegs what I felt. It was an amazing, wonderful, and terrible feeling. "Pleasure" is a small and insignificant word next to what I felt at the very center of not only my being, but of her being. . . . .





Now, that's effective written communication!

[rugbysecondrow]

I think if a customer is going to specify chain stay length down to the mm then they should know how builders measure chain stay length.

I agree with this.

[djg21]

Now, that's effective written communication!

I haven't read Penthouse Forum since, as an adolescent, I found a some magazines under my old man's bed. :). It's interesting that this and some of the other posts in this thread can be characterized as masturbatory in different senses of the word.

[beeatnik]

I haven't read Penthouse Forum since, as an adolescent, I found a some magazines under my old man's bed. :). It's interesting that this and some of the other posts in this thread can be characterized as masturbatory in different senses of the word.

djg21, I like your style

[velomonkey]

djg21, I like your style

Gentlemen, I serve and write at your pleasure (pun totally intended, I mean, how could I not, am I right).

[etu]

To the OP, thanks for this great post! Happy to hear you're getting taken care of and hopefully you've found the discussion entertaining and helpful.

I also have to agree that fuzz has been piled-on. His posts use to rub me the wrong way, but I get it now. It's his "style" and it adds personality to the forum and I like it - love seeing all those SAT words I had to memorize back in the day! :beer:

[DukeHorn]

fuzz, are you a lawyer? you talk like a layer. i feel like im reading terms & conditions when i read your posts. where's the "i agree/disagree" button?

I would have to say that most lawyers under a certain age do try to write in clear English. What's the point of writing a contract if the terms aren't clear? What's the point of writing a brief if the judge/clerk doesn't understand your argument? Young attorneys who write like a hot mess usually get called out on it.

[Keith A]

I think we have reached the end of this discussion. The OP is welcome to start a new discussion about this issue if he feels the need to do so, but I don't think there is anything more to be accomplished in this one.