Is recent Campy 10spd crap?

[jemoryl]

I have two lovely bikes which I have built up from frames using a combination of Campy 10spd. components, ranging from Centaur to Record, mostly purchased new in the mid to late 2000s. Going to 11 spd. is not a temptation: I'm happy with what I have, and always appreciated how the different levels of Campy stuff played well together.

So last year, one of my right ergos developed problems beyond just the usual G-springs (which I have replaced a few times) and I bought a pair of Centaur shifters from Ribble because there is really no higher level alternative (without going to the retro 10spd Record shifters). I had my doubts about the so called powershift mechanism, but in practice it turned out to work surprisingly well, with a nice light feel.

But now this bike, with maybe 3 or 4k miles on the ergos, has developed the dreaded touch the thumb lever once and have your chain drop to the smallest cog syndrome. Looking around the web, this problem appears to be pretty common.

Can Campy really be putting out a product which is such a piece of crap? So if I go through all the hassle of trying to replace the part under warranty (or just buying the mechanism, EC-VL100, IIRC), what is to stop it from wearing out again in 3k miles? Does anyone with inside knowledge of Campy know if the mechanism has been improved (apparently there is a plastic gear that wears)?

BTW, I was prepared to work with Ribble on the warranty, but they sent me an interesting .pdf from Campy which states 'Any person who has bought a Campagnolo product, showing regular proof of purchase (receipt or invoice) is allowed to ask for technical assistance from any official Service Center present in his/her country and must be treated as any other customer.' Wonder how that would go?

FWIW, based on Campy's recent trajectory, I've never been so inclined to consider Shimano. I am not a wealthy person but I do like nice bikes that function well.

[zap]

Can't help you with Centaur group. I have Record 10 on one bike that I purchased in '04. Shifter still works well?maybe 25K miles. I never had Shimano Dura Ace shifters last that long.

Maybe spud man has some info to share.

[FlashUNC]

You're probably better off looking for the Chorus/Record 10 speed bits from that era and using those, quite honestly.

Campy 11 speed came out coming up on a decade ago now (2008). They're still supporting 10 speed with cassettes, chains, small parts for shifters, etc, but the Centaur/Veloce stuff isn't where their focus and energy really is at this point.

If you're sticking 10 speed, I'd look mostly to finding a gently used pair of prior gen shifters.

[jemoryl]

You're probably better off looking for the Chorus/Record 10 speed bits from that era and using those, quite honestly.

Campy 11 speed came out coming up on a decade ago now (2008). They're still supporting 10 speed with cassettes, chains, small parts for shifters, etc, but the Centaur/Veloce stuff isn't where their focus and energy really is at this point.

If you're sticking 10 speed, I'd look mostly to finding a gently used pair of prior gen shifters.

All this I realize. However, if Campy is going to still produce 10spd. Ergos with a three year warranty, shouldn't they at least be of decent quality? This is what I would have expected of them in the past.

[ghammer]

forget campy's lower-end grouppos. been using campy since i was 17, moved to sram in the late 2000s and didn't come back. well, i did, briefly, and was horribly disappointed. you see, i purchased a brand new set of rear der and levers, Veloce, in early 2011. Abso-····ing-lutely garbage. Plasticky, ····ty, disposable, couldn't rebuild. what a difference from my previous generation veloce 9spd, which was rebuilt 2x and worked excellently. From then on i realized campy kept its firepower running for mid-upper grouppos. if you're looking for 10spd stuff, go on ebay. campy doesn't care about its mid-lower tier grouppos and it shows. they're totally garbage and you'll waste your time. i was lucky enough that a friend of mine sold me a pair of brand new early 2000s centaur levers, and they are/were amazing. and rebuildable

[Ralph]

I have 2011 Centaur Power Shift on one bike, and it works fine. Been working fine since 2011.

[soulspinner]

You're probably better off looking for the Chorus/Record 10 speed bits from that era and using those, quite honestly.

Campy 11 speed came out coming up on a decade ago now (2008). They're still supporting 10 speed with cassettes, chains, small parts for shifters, etc, but the Centaur/Veloce stuff isn't where their focus and energy really is at this point.

If you're sticking 10 speed, I'd look mostly to finding a gently used pair of prior gen shifters.

What Flash said.

[Slow Eddie]

You're probably better off looking for the Chorus/Record 10 speed bits from that era and using those, quite honestly.

Campy 11 speed came out coming up on a decade ago now (2008). They're still supporting 10 speed with cassettes, chains, small parts for shifters, etc, but the Centaur/Veloce stuff isn't where their focus and energy really is at this point.

If you're sticking 10 speed, I'd look mostly to finding a gently used pair of prior gen shifters.

^This. Now that the higher-end groups are 11-speed, newer 10-speed has been relegated to the price-point stuff. I'm in the same boat, and have been trolling auctions sites to pick up on higher-quality, alloy-levered 10-speed shifters. Good thing is, they are in relatively regular supply as it seems there is always someone ready to abandon their worn-in 10-speed stuff for the latest and greatest.

Good hunting.

[R3awak3n]

Have record 10 and centaur 10.

They both work well, record 10 shifters better but centaur 10 has not giving me any problems at all.

[FlashUNC]

All this I realize. However, if Campy is going to still produce 10spd. Ergos with a three year warranty, shouldn't they at least be of decent quality? This is what I would have expected of them in the past.

I have 2011 Centaur Power Shift on one bike, and it works fine. Been working fine since 2011.

The lower end stuff is more a roll of the dice these days, but the Escape/Powershift stuff has always been somewhat finicky. Either you get good levers and they last awhile, or you don't and, well, you end up with some bum levers and its off to chatting with someone at a Campy Service Center.

Their 11 speed stuff is still top notch and the older 10 speed stuff that, when it was the latest and greatest, still works great.

But hasn't that always been the company's MO to some degree? I don't see many folks pining for Croce D'Aune when C-Record is out there. Or Gran Sport or Triomphe parts. Their top tier stuff has always generally been pretty bulletproof -- and you pay for that -- while the lower tier stuff is sometimes great, sometimes not so great.

I saw a quote from Valentino in a Rouleur interview a couple years back that I thought was pretty illuminating, he said that if Campy were a restaurant, they wouldn't need a menu. The customer walks in already knowing what he or she wants. The waiter doesn't need to tell them what's available, they already know and have their hearts (and savings) set on something.

That's the market they're after these days. The aspirational parts. But I don't know if that's necessarily any different than the past either.

[jemoryl]

I actually might be able to cobble together a decent working set of circa 2005 Centaur levers, but I need the alloy shift paddle assembly EC-CH328. Can't seem to locate one.

[SlackMan]

Related question: Are all Campy 11 speed shifters rebuildable, or are all not, or are some rebuildable and some not?

[nm87710]

Good Luck

[FlashUNC]

Related question: Are all Campy 11 speed shifters rebuildable, or are all not, or are some rebuildable and some not?

They are, and simpler internals than the 10 speed stuff, honestly. (No more G spring and carriers.)

But.....Campy doesn't sell individual parts for rebuilds anymore. So you're cannibalizing other shifters or buying their rebuild "assemblies" which are basically the full guts minus a lever blade that you swap over.

[SlackMan]

They are, and simpler internals than the 10 speed stuff, honestly. (No more G spring and carriers.)

But.....Campy doesn't sell individual parts for rebuilds anymore. So you're cannibalizing other shifters or buying their rebuild "assemblies" which are basically the full guts minus a lever blade that you swap over.

Thanks, Flash.

[downtube]

My Della Santa has a real mix of campy 10 speed stuff.
record shifters and brakes
chorus crank
centaur front derailleur
veloce rear derailleur

All seems good to date, crank shifters and brakes are old and have been ridden a lot of miles, the derailleurs have about 3,000 miles on them and work fine.

Good luck, some day I will upgrade to 11spd chorus.

chuck

[El Chaba]

The higher end 9 and 10 speed era Campagnolo parts are among the best that have ever been produced. It is worth finding NOS or gently used replacements for anything other than consumables.

[oliver1850]

Daytona/Centaur through 2006 are my favorite parts ever made. Doubt we'll ever seen anything to compete with the combination of design, finish, ability to rebuild, price. Nearly everything Campagnolo has done to the 10 speed stuff since has been a step backward. Only the UT crank (now gone in 10 speed), and possibly the lever shape are improvements.

That said, I really don't mind the PS lever issues considering what they cost. Veloce Ergos are $85 at ribble. As mentioned, you can probably get $40-50 for the dead ones for people to use as brake levers only.

Another option for the OP would be to keep an eye out for US 10 Ergos. You will eventually have the same sort of issues about rebuilding, but I'd expect them to go quite a bit beyond 3.000 miles.

[danield]

Aside from the Power-torque cranks (avoid!), I've had great luck with current Veloce and Centaur kit. Definitely low key, with plenty of plastic and steel, but I've built ~7 bikes with mostly Veloce with fantastic shifting and very little needed in terms of maintenance.

Meanwhile I've broken a Shimano shifter, chain, and brake in the course of regular, non-intensive use.

Currently I like to use the Veloce shifters, Skeleton brakes, Centaur rear derailleur, Veloce or Centaur front D., KMC chain, and any Ultra-torque crank. Cheap and easy to set up. I wish there was a non-plastic-y inexpensive Campy shifter, but the Veloce has worked very well. At the end of the day the value, ergonomics, and aesthetics are good enough for me.

[beeatnik]

danield, I like your thrifty style

[choke]

They are, and simpler internals than the 10 speed stuff, honestly. (No more G spring and carriers.)

But.....Campy doesn't sell individual parts for rebuilds anymore. So you're cannibalizing other shifters or buying their rebuild "assemblies" which are basically the full guts minus a lever blade that you swap over.Ummm...the Athena 11 shifters are Powershift, so not rebuildable in the sense that the Ultrashift ones are.

[mistermo]

I thought Campagnolo was still producing the older generation 10s (Record) for sale as new. There are multiple retail outlets that have once again, begun carrying brand new, 10s Record shifters and derailleurs.

[FlashUNC]

Ummm...the Athena 11 shifters are Powershift, so not rebuildable in the sense that the Ultrashift ones are.

Apologies, I meant all the non-Powershift stuff.

So Chorus and above.

[thirdgenbird]

I thought Campagnolo was still producing the older generation 10s (Record) for sale as new. There are multiple retail outlets that have once again, begun carrying brand new, 10s Record shifters and derailleurs.

I've seen chorus and record 10 (shifters and derailleurs) marked 2014. Did they do it again this year?

[oldpotatoe]

I actually might be able to cobble together a decent working set of circa 2005 Centaur levers, but I need the alloy shift paddle assembly EC-CH328. Can't seem to locate one.

Call Vecchio's

303-440-3535

[oldpotatoe]

Ummm...the Athena 11 shifters are Powershift, so not rebuildable in the sense that the Ultrashift ones are.

2011 and later. 2009/2010 Athena Ultrashift. 11s first year was 2009.

[soulspinner]

I've seen chorus and record 10 (shifters and derailleurs) marked 2014. Did they do it again this year?

good question.

[oldpotatoe]

I have two lovely bikes which I have built up from frames using a combination of Campy 10spd. components, ranging from Centaur to Record, mostly purchased new in the mid to late 2000s. Going to 11 spd. is not a temptation: I'm happy with what I have, and always appreciated how the different levels of Campy stuff played well together.

So last year, one of my right ergos developed problems beyond just the usual G-springs (which I have replaced a few times) and I bought a pair of Centaur shifters from Ribble because there is really no higher level alternative (without going to the retro 10spd Record shifters). I had my doubts about the so called powershift mechanism, but in practice it turned out to work surprisingly well, with a nice light feel.

But now this bike, with maybe 3 or 4k miles on the ergos, has developed the dreaded touch the thumb lever once and have your chain drop to the smallest cog syndrome. Looking around the web, this problem appears to be pretty common.

Can Campy really be putting out a product which is such a piece of crap? So if I go through all the hassle of trying to replace the part under warranty (or just buying the mechanism, EC-VL100, IIRC), what is to stop it from wearing out again in 3k miles? Does anyone with inside knowledge of Campy know if the mechanism has been improved (apparently there is a plastic gear that wears)?

BTW, I was prepared to work with Ribble on the warranty, but they sent me an interesting .pdf from Campy which states 'Any person who has bought a Campagnolo product, showing regular proof of purchase (receipt or invoice) is allowed to ask for technical assistance from any official Service Center present in his/her country and must be treated as any other customer.' Wonder how that would go?

FWIW, based on Campy's recent trajectory, I've never been so inclined to consider Shimano. I am not a wealthy person but I do like nice bikes that function well.

First, if 'something besides G springs', I could have replaced anything. Second, the Powershift stuff can be problematic but is better today than 2011(first year of Powershift).

Yes you can get any technical assistance from Campagnolo NA, just probably not a warranty.



Veloce for 10s and Athena for 11s is Powershift, price point stuff just like Tiagra or 105 stuff.

Bottom line is warranty the lever, but probably thru Ribble.

Like nice stuff? Get Chorus.

[Bostic]

I bought brand new 2014 Chorus 10 speed shifters off eBay last year. One thing that I don't like about them is there is a noticeable gap between the shift paddle and the brake lever when in the closed position. Since there is no reach adjust I have to live with it unless I want to do one of those mods I've seen of putting epoxy or auto body filler to bring the brake lever closer. That's one thing I do like about the Sram shifters.

[oldpotatoe]

Aside from the Power-torque cranks (avoid!), I've had great luck with current Veloce and Centaur kit. Definitely low key, with plenty of plastic and steel, but I've built ~7 bikes with mostly Veloce with fantastic shifting and very little needed in terms of maintenance.

Meanwhile I've broken a Shimano shifter, chain, and brake in the course of regular, non-intensive use.

Currently I like to use the Veloce shifters, Skeleton brakes, Centaur rear derailleur, Veloce or Centaur front D., KMC chain, and any Ultra-torque crank. Cheap and easy to set up. I wish there was a non-plastic-y inexpensive Campy shifter, but the Veloce has worked very well. At the end of the day the value, ergonomics, and aesthetics are good enough for me.

Power torque crank avoidance, I just don't get it. I have installed and serviced many, have had no issue or problem with them. They also use the very common
7mm width bearing vs the proprietary 6mm bearing. I use one on my EPS Athena Merckx.

First hand knowledge or interweb or 2nd, 3rd, 5th hand info?

[oldpotatoe]

good question.

They make and sell record 10s shift assemblies in a ERGO body. No hood, brake blade, hardware. Left and right.

[jemoryl]

First, if 'something besides G springs', I could have replaced anything. Second, the Powershift stuff can be problematic but is better today than 2011(first year of Powershift).

Yes you can get any technical assistance from Campagnolo NA, just probably not a warranty.



Veloce for 10s and Athena for 11s is Powershift, price point stuff just like Tiagra or 105 stuff.

Bottom line is warranty the lever, but probably thru Ribble.

Like nice stuff? Get Chorus.

Thanks for your response. To your points, in reverse: I'd gladly buy some Chorus 10 spd shifters if they were available. I'm still kicking myself for not jumping on several pairs when they were being closed out at around $150. If I bought the current ones, I'd need to do a full upgrade to 11 spd, and the finances are just not there (aside from my innate resistance to sidelining some perfectly fine gear). About your parsing of 'technical assistance': the Campy document leads me to believe that I have identical warranty rights in the US as in the UK. Your reading is worthy of slick Willie's 'I did not inhale'. My instinct is to avoid trying to even approaching an official US 'Service Center' with my warranty claim, lest I become even more frustrated.

I've got a couple pairs of mid 2000 Centaur levers with various worn or broken parts. It appears I have enough to build one right lever if I can find that EC-CH328, so I'll give Vecchio's a call. So my plan is to order a pair of the newest Veloce Powershifts from Ribble to see if the mechanism is improved. If they only last 3k miles, then I will have rebuilt my old Centaurs as a standby.

[oldpotatoe]

Thanks for your response. To your points, in reverse: I'd gladly buy some Chorus 10 spd shifters if they were available. I'm still kicking umyself for not jumping on several pairs when they were being closed out at around $150. If I bought the current ones, I'd need to do a full upgrade to 11 spd, and the finances are just not there (aside from my innate resistance to sidelining some perfectly fine gear). About your parsing of 'technical assistance': the Campy document leads me to believe that I have identical warranty rights in the US as in the UK. Your reading is worthy of slick Willie's 'I did not inhale'. My instinct is to avoid trying to even approaching an official US 'Service Center' with my warranty claim, lest I become even more frustrated.

I've got a couple pairs of mid 2000 Centaur levers with various worn or broken parts. It appears I have enough to build one right lever if I can find that EC-CH328, so I'll give Vecchio's a call. So my plan is to order a pair of the newest Veloce Powershifts from Ribble to see if the mechanism is improved. If they only last 3k miles, then I will have rebuilt my old Centaurs as a standby.

Why order new and spend more money? Contact Jerry at Campagnolo NA and ask about warranty, the worse that will happen is that he will say no. If not that, have Ribble warranty. They have a 3 year warranty for a reason, use it.

[jemoryl]

Why order new and spend more money? Contact Jerry at Campagnolo NA and ask about warranty, the worse that will happen is that he will say no. If not that, have Ribble warranty. They have a 3 year warranty for a reason, use it.

I might try the warranty route but it seems to always involve sending the parts off to be evaluated and maybe replaced. It would be nice to have that bike to ride for those weeks...

[oldpotatoe]

I might try the warranty route but it seems to always involve sending the parts off to be evaluated and maybe replaced. It would be nice to have that bike to ride for those weeks...

Yes it would but I still would rec call Jerry at Csmpagnolo NA and talk to him, he's a great guy. The same would happen whether you were using a warranty for Shimano or spam, btw. Not making any promises but worth a try, imho rather than spend another $85 or so.

[harryblack]

Aside from the Power-torque cranks (avoid!), I've had great luck with current Veloce and Centaur kit. Definitely low key, with plenty of plastic and steel, but I've built ~7 bikes with mostly Veloce with fantastic shifting and very little needed in terms of maintenance.

Meanwhile I've broken a Shimano shifter, chain, and brake in the course of regular, non-intensive use.

Currently I like to use the Veloce shifters, Skeleton brakes, Centaur rear derailleur, Veloce or Centaur front D., KMC chain, and any Ultra-torque crank. Cheap and easy to set up. I wish there was a non-plastic-y inexpensive Campy shifter, but the Veloce has worked very well. At the end of the day the value, ergonomics, and aesthetics are good enough for me.

Co-sign this 100% though I've not built a Powertorque crank yet. (Isn't it easier now w/ more tools avail?)

While anything can happen, I race cross on Veloce (UT crank, Powershift levers) and ride in other un-gentle conditions and the group has been perfect. (Anti- Powershift crowd can start hissing here but I ride both and it's simply NOT an issue-- if someone's "performance" is based on whether they have to click once or three time fast, they have lotsa OTHER issues they should be confronting first (if riding fast is their goal)).

Veloce RD / shifter also, btw, worked perfectly when I was still running Shimano 9 speed (because I had old stuff to use up) with the limit screws set and it works perfect with 10 speed also.

I'm not Campy right or wrong but even recent Veloce / Centaur is very good.

[danield]

Power torque crank avoidance, I just don't get it. I have installed and serviced many, have had no issue or problem with them. They also use the very common
7mm width bearing vs the proprietary 6mm bearing. I use one on my EPS Athena Merckx.

First hand knowledge or interweb or 2nd, 3rd, 5th hand info?

My issue was with removing the PT cranks. Tool would slip and mar the cranks, or at best just be a time-consuming PITA. Granted I never opted for the Park crank puller kit, used a gear puller. But found some budget friendly NOS centaur ultra-torque and fulcrum cranks and haven't looked back.

[tiretrax]

The lower end stuff is more a roll of the dice these days, but the Escape/Powershift stuff has always been somewhat finicky. Either you get good levers and they last awhile, or you don't and, well, you end up with some bum levers and its off to chatting with someone at a Campy Service Center.

Their 11 speed stuff is still top notch and the older 10 speed stuff that, when it was the latest and greatest, still works great.

But hasn't that always been the company's MO to some degree? I don't see many folks pining for Croce D'Aune when C-Record is out there. Or Gran Sport or Triomphe parts. Their top tier stuff has always generally been pretty bulletproof -- and you pay for that -- while the lower tier stuff is sometimes great, sometimes not so great.

I saw a quote from Valentino in a Rouleur interview a couple years back that I thought was pretty illuminating, he said that if Campy were a restaurant, they wouldn't need a menu. The customer walks in already knowing what he or she wants. The waiter doesn't need to tell them what's available, they already know and have their hearts (and savings) set on something.

That's the market they're after these days. The aspirational parts. But I don't know if that's necessarily any different than the past either.

I read that article, too. Do you think it's because the lower end gear is outsourced to Romania?

[oldpotatoe]

My issue was with removing the PT cranks. Tool would slip and mar the cranks, or at best just be a time-consuming PITA. Granted I never opted for the Park crank puller kit, used a gear puller. But found some budget friendly NOS centaur ultra-torque and fulcrum cranks and haven't looked back.

Gear puller but not a proper, designed crank puller.(there are about 4)Well, you can use a automotive tie road tool to get crank arms off too, kinda PITA.
:eek::eek

Normal BB cup tool, big honkin Allen wrench, grease..proper tool to pull off left hand arm...hardly worth the "AVOID" stuff, imho.

[choke]

2011 and later. 2009/2010 Athena Ultrashift. 11s first year was 2009.Good point.

[Waldo]

Snip: I saw a quote from Valentino in a Rouleur interview a couple years back that I thought was pretty illuminating, he said that if Campy were a restaurant, they wouldn't need a menu. The customer walks in already knowing what he or she wants. The waiter doesn't need to tell them what's available, they already know and have their hearts (and savings) set on something.

It seems when a company names an item or a part after a kid it invariably turns out crap. Campagnolo Valentino rear derailleur was garbage, on par with Ford Edsel.

[acorn_user]

Snip:

It seems when a company names an item or a part after a kid it invariably turns out crap. Campagnolo Valentino rear derailleur was garbage, on par with Ford Edsel.

Mercedes ;)

[IIRC named after a niece]

[FlashUNC]

I read that article, too. Do you think it's because the lower end gear is outsourced to Romania?

I don't think so. I've gotten Chorus bits made in Romania that are as nice as anything else they make.

I just get the sense from interviews and elsewhere Valentino and Co want to spend zero time looking backwards. Yeah, they'll support their previous products like they always have, but forget about silvery bits and those kinds of things.

They paid a heavy price for their beautiful, retro jewelry in the late 80s while SunTour and Shimano were innovating, which were his early years running the company. I don't think he wants to repeat that mistake again.

[jemoryl]

An update:

My efforts to locate the EC-CH328 (shift lever in alloy with a hole) came to naught (the usual suspects in the US and UK told me they are rare). I did, however successfully win an eBay bid for a right hand Centaur ergolever of the correct era which was said to have a sticky mechanism (ca. $40). The plan was to cannibalize the eBay lever to repair one of my old levers, but the eBay lever was actually in pretty nice shape, and could have been used as-is. I disassembled it for inspection, found it was probably never serviced (looked like the factory grease job), and gave it some new g-springs. Works like a charm now.

So my Basso Reef is back on ca. 2005 Centaur levers and the next step will be to try to warranty the one year old versions. I'm hoping that the rumor of an improvement in the mechanism is true, as they are sweet shifting (especially the front, which is a lot lighter and snappier than the older 10 speed stuff).

[jemoryl]

Issue resolved:

Ribble UK told me I could send the levers back to them for warranty but why not try the local route first. Per suggestions made above, I tried calling Campy USA a few times, left voice mails, but got no human response.

So I sought out my closest Campy Pro Shop, which is Cycle Craft in Parsippany, NJ. I know this shop and they don't really sell anything Campy, but whatever. Kudos to Craig, the service manager, who was skeptical that Campy would warranty the levers, but went through the channels. First, they could not get anyone at Campy, since they were apparently all at Eurobike for a couple weeks(!). Finally, they told Craig to send the levers off to QBP for inspection, and a couple weeks later they were returned repaired.

So I have set of 'power shift' Centaur levers in reserve, as I'm happily using a refreshed pair of g-spring era Centaurs on the bike. The mechanism on the repaired rear looks a bit different from what I recall, so maybe rumors of an improvement in the 'power shift' mechanism are true. I suspect it will be awhile before I find out.