More Doping: Tom Danielson

[djg21]

Tom Danielson (Cannondale-Garmin) tested positive for synthetic testosterone in an out-of-competition test performed July 9, according to tweets from the rider Sunday night.

. . . .

Further Tweets from the American rider, who served a six-month suspension, from September 1, 2012 to March 1, 2013, after he admitted to doping during his time with the Discovery Channel team, state that he will have the supplements he takes tested for possible contamination.

Danielson faces a lifetime ban from the sport should his B sample confirm the positive test.http://velonews.competitor.com/2015/08/news/tom-danielson-fails-doping-test_380297

Contaminated supplements? Really? :eek:

[happycampyer]

As I said elsewhere, I suspect that he ingested the testosterone from a spiked In-and-Out Burger milkshake. Happens all the time.

[54ny77]

shocking, absolutely shocking. :rolleyes:

happy, where can i get me one of them shakes? they need in-n-out on the east coast.

[Joachim]

Synthetic testosterone? Probably shown by isotope test.
http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2006/08/01/sports/02landis-graphic.html

Good luck showing that came from tainted supplements. Let me guess, he thought the little oil capsules that came from ferrari years ago were fish oil. So now he needs to show that he has a supplement with 1-Methyltesterone in it or liquid capsules with test undecanoate (oil capsules). Besides you would think that after serving a 6 month ban already you will only use certified clean supplements as a pro rider. Yeah, this one is full of it.

[Ti Designs]

Pro racing is like that old joke about the Kamikaze program - all the good pilots died in training... From the lowest ranks to the very top of the sport there's this weeding out process, all the clean riders make it to a point, and that's it. To make it to the top you have to cheat, but that also gets you kicked out of the sport...

[soulspinner]

Shoulda stuck to baking soda...;)

[CunegoFan]

We should feel sorry for him. Post Traumatic Lance Doping Syndrome. It is a serious affliction that is a lifelong malady that can flare up at any time.

[MattTuck]

I bet sideburns is just loving this.

[Jgrooms]

Tilford's gonna have fun w this!

[Joel]

When I saw this headline on cyclingnews.com early this morning I thought it was some weird joke.

Being half awake I was trying to process it - wait Tom Danielson busted for doping - this is some tech glitch and the website is pulling an old article.

Amazing...and not in a good way.

Still shaking head...

[oldpotatoe]

shocking, absolutely shocking. :rolleyes:

happy, where can i get me one of them shakes? they need in-n-out on the east coast.

No kiddin. The farthest eastern one is in Las Vegas..a regular visit every Interbike.

But Danielson can whine about supplements all he wants, it's HIS responsibility to make sure there is nothing 'else' in there. Standard 'defense', supplements.

For right below-whatdoyaknow..Utah..closer...

[CunegoFan]

No kiddin. The farthest eastern one is in Las Vegas..a regular visit every Interbike.


There are In-N-Outs on Utah's Wasatch Front.

[KJMUNC]

And now in TX too....I'll have to stop by for one of them burgers!

[oldpotatoe]

And now in TX too....I'll have to stop by for one of them burgers!

need 'em in Colorado!!

[rustychisel]

I'd have expected better palmares. Doping to be pack fodder is the new black (but according to the UCI there's no problem).

[marciero]

Call me naive or gullible but it still makes me a little sad every time I hear a story like this. Am sad for the never-ending insult to the sport.
Also disappointed with respect to this rider, though not surprised. I became aware of TD in 2000 or so when he was racing professionally while still attending Fort Lewis College. The USMA cycling team I accompanied as faculty sponsor raced against him at the 2002 collegiate mountain nationals, where he won the XC race. (Am at this moment wearing the T-shirt from the race weekend) Then I met him at the Mt Washington Hill climb in 2003 when he won, setting a new record. He seemed like such a nice guy, and so earnest. Since then I sort of loosely followed his career. Fort Lewis, Rick Crawford, Fassa Bortolo.... the Levi Leipheimer documentary...


Besides, aren't all the cool kids using FG-4592? http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/30/sports/cycling/fabio-taborre-and-carlos-oyarzun-drug-tests-suggest-use-of-chemical-meant-for-research.html?_r=0

[cfox]

I was shocked, too. I thought he retired 2 years ago. There is a young, talented rider out there washing dishes because this old, washed up (was he ever washed down??) cheater still has a contract. No other sport operates like this.

[bobswire]

Give the guy a break, as men get older there is a drop in testosterone. A man's testosterone level begins to fall at around age 40 and continues to decline slowly throughout the remainder of their life. By the time a man reaches the age of 70, he may have as little as 10% of the testosterone he had during youth.
All he did was give himself a little boost to level the playing field competing against those 20 sometings.;)

[Anarchist]

No kiddin. The farthest eastern one is in Las Vegas..a regular visit every Interbike.

But Danielson can whine about supplements all he wants, it's HIS responsibility to make sure there is nothing 'else' in there. Standard 'defense', supplements.

For right below-whatdoyaknow..Utah..closer...

Lots of 'em in Arizona.

[LegendRider]

I'm curious to hear Phil Gaimon's reaction. They trained together and Phil seemed to think highly of Danielson, despite his past.

[redir]

As I said elsewhere, I suspect that he ingested the testosterone from a spiked In-and-Out Burger milkshake. Happens all the time.

Beware the In-and-Out!

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2015/08/02/in-n-out-customer-sues-after-saying-he-found-meth-in-his-drink-cup/

[tiretrax]

Give the guy a break, as men get older there is a drop in testosterone. A man's testosterone level begins to fall at around age 40 and continues to decline slowly throughout the remainder of their life. By the time a man reaches the age of 70, he may have as little as 10% of the testosterone he had during youth.
All he did was give himself a little boost to level the playing field competing against those 20 sometings.;)

Bob, you sound like you've been watching too many big Pharma commercials during sporting events. :-)



I read an article from a link here yesterday about how 1/3 or more of the medals won at the 2012 Olympics and recent world championships were tainted.

There has been a rash of suspensions of cyclists this year. Why should anyone be surprised. For me, the bigger surprise would be to find a sport without doping. Curling? Darts?

[christian]

Hasn't TD been dirty since at least college. This has to rank up there with gambling at Rick's.

[christian]

For me, the bigger surprise would be to find a sport without doping. Curling? Darts?i imagine beta blockers are big in darts.

[MattTuck]

Hasn't TD been dirty since at least college. This has to rank up there with gambling at Rick's.

From a while back.

[earlfoss]

If you're surprised by this news, shift your thinking a little bit. Don't think of him as an athlete. Think of him as a drug addict or alcoholic who is capable of all of the things people with those problems do.

[oldpotatoe]

Bob, you sound like you've been watching too many big Pharma commercials during sporting events. :-)



I read an article from a link here yesterday about how 1/3 or more of the medals won at the 2012 Olympics and recent world championships were tainted.

There has been a rash of suspensions of cyclists this year. Why should anyone be surprised. For me, the bigger surprise would be to find a sport without doping. Curling? Darts?

http://www.irishtriathlon.com/index.php/2014/01/ironman-triathlon-doping-epo-steroids

[velomonkey]

Danielson is the 2 time defending champ of Tour of Utah - ahead of Horner. . . .

Might as well call it the doped old guys tour.

[J.Greene]

Danielson's wiki page says he lives at home with his wife and two kids while also having a girlfriend who was a Tour of Utah podium girl. The guy may need a little extra T.

[Wesley37]

i imagine beta blockers are big in darts.

Interestingly, a couple of years back when there was a campaign to take cannabis off the WADA list for not being performance enhancing, there was still discussion of keeping it illegal because it could be performance enhancing where steadiness of hand mattered (like target shooting, I expect darts could be similar).

[PQJ]

Interestingly, a couple of years back when there was a campaign to take cannabis off the WADA list for not being performance enhancing, there was still discussion of keeping it illegal because it could be performance enhancing where steadiness of hand mattered (like target shooting, I expect darts could be similar).

Take golf. Steadiness of many things matters, to play it well. Trust me when I say this, pot doesn't help. It can add to the enjoyment, but it doesn't help you play better.

[Jgrooms]

Your TD history:
http://stevetilford.com/?s=Danielson&submit=Search

[rain dogs]

No other sport operates like this.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but pro sports? They all operate like, or very similar to this.

[Wesley37]

Take golf. Steadiness of many things matters, to play it well. Trust me when I say this, pot doesn't help. It can add to the enjoyment, but it doesn't help you play better.

Not my campaign, just thought it was an interesting line of thought re: doping

[rain dogs]

Oh btw. Image is everything (said??? Charles Barkley? or was that image is nothing?)

Anyway. https://twitter.com/tomdanielson

How long till he changes that photo to one of him holding a puppy, vs holding, well...

[CunegoFan]

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but pro sports? They all operate like, or very similar to this.

Most sports are run by people smart enough or cynical enough, depending on how you look at it, to only pay lip service to stopping doping and to do very limited testing. Cycling not so much.

[Joachim]

From Danielson's previous affidavit for USADA:

78. In 2006 Dr. Ferrari told me about a recipe for mixing small testosterone balls
known as Andriol in olive oil. I was instructed to place the mixture in a container and extract 1
ml with a syringe and squirt the liquid under my tongue. This was supposed to be done at night,
and I was told that by morning I would not test positive. This product was known as the "oil",
and I would get it as needed from Pepe Marti.
79. I discussed the "oil" with George Hincapie on a bike ride and understood that he
used it.
80. While on the Discovery Channel Team I also used testosterone patches. I
obtained some of these from Michael Barry.
81. I also discussed testosterone patches with Pepe who said that he could get them
for me.

[bcroslin]

Wait a second, testosterone in supplements?! Where can I buy this magical supplement?

The UCI should adopt the marketing slogan "If you're not cheating, you're not trying to win!"

[PQJ]

Not my campaign, just thought it was an interesting line of thought re: doping

I hear ya. Just offering my opinion on the subject of whether pot enhances athletic performance.

[cfox]

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but pro sports? They all operate like, or very similar to this.

I wasn't talking about doping, my comment was in regards to old, washed up guys crowding out new talent. Yes, in big pro sports, some veterans get contracts that over value their current worth, but for the most part, the relentless weeding out process keeps fresh, young talent coming into the sport. There is near hysteria surrounding the NFL draft every year. Cycling has such a crony culture that guys like Tom Danielson stay employed for years past their prime. Oh, and his prime was never that good to begin with. TD is one of many examples of this.

[MattTuck]

From Danielson's previous affidavit for USADA:

78. In 2006 Dr. Ferrari told me about a recipe for mixing small testosterone balls
known as Andriol in olive oil. I was instructed to place the mixture in a container and extract 1
ml with a syringe and squirt the liquid under my tongue. This was supposed to be done at night,
and I was told that by morning I would not test positive. This product was known as the "oil",
and I would get it as needed from Pepe Marti.
79. I discussed the "oil" with George Hincapie on a bike ride and understood that he
used it.
80. While on the Discovery Channel Team I also used testosterone patches. I
obtained some of these from Michael Barry.
81. I also discussed testosterone patches with Pepe who said that he could get them
for me.

That sounds like a good name for a supplement, "The Oil".

I really don't know what to think of this, honestly. I'd like to believe that a rider can serve his suspension and commit to riding clean when he comes back. Is it possible that his supplements contain banned substances? I'm not sure...

None of it makes sense. You're already on probation, why would you dope? Just to prolong your career as a mediocre pro? On the other hand, why would you take supplements that are potentially full of banned substances? Shouldn't the team vet any supplements that the riders are taking?

[CunegoFan]

None of it makes sense. You're already on probation, why would you dope? Just to prolong your career as a mediocre pro? On the other hand, why would you take supplements that are potentially full of banned substances? Shouldn't the team vet any supplements that the riders are taking?

TD's contract ends this year and he has a young girlfriend who follows him around the world. With his history of cheating on his wives and divorce, he may not have much savings. An extra two years at several hundred K/year might be very helpful.

[bobswire]

Your TD history:
http://stevetilford.com/?s=Danielson&submit=Search

Tilford is always a good read.

[bobswire]

That sounds like a good name for a supplement, "The Oil".

I really don't know what to think of this, honestly. I'd like to believe that a rider can serve his suspension and commit to riding clean when he comes back. Is it possible that his supplements contain banned substances? I'm not sure...

None of it makes sense. You're already on probation, why would you dope? Just to prolong your career as a mediocre pro? On the other hand, why would you take supplements that are potentially full of banned substances? Shouldn't the team vet any supplements that the riders are taking?

Cycling is a very HARD sport to make a decent salary on and once you commit I imagine it's very hard to give up that addiction (in more ways than one).
Or you can be like Tilford,I could have been the champ.

[peanutgallery]

Sometimes its good stuff, I agree. He's living the life that sometimes we'd all like to. Can't figure out how he does it, but more power to him as he's figured something out.

when he gets indignant and prattles on about certain doping situations, he digs some holes and it gets a little shrill for me. I can't read those posts. Glass houses => BMC gets a free pass

Tilford is always a good read.

[Keith A]

Call me naive or gullible but it still makes me a little sad every time I hear a story like this. Am sad for the never-ending insult to the sport. Also disappointed with respect to this rider...Sums up my feelings as well.

[Joachim]

That sounds like a good name for a supplement, "The Oil".

I really don't know what to think of this, honestly. I'd like to believe that a rider can serve his suspension and commit to riding clean when he comes back. Is it possible that his supplements contain banned substances? I'm not sure...

None of it makes sense. You're already on probation, why would you dope? Just to prolong your career as a mediocre pro? On the other hand, why would you take supplements that are potentially full of banned substances? Shouldn't the team vet any supplements that the riders are taking?

The positive test is for synthetic testosterone. Unless the testosterone molecule is modified, it cannot survive what we call the "first pass effect" through the liver (ie when you take it orally). Thats why testosterone is mostly injected. It can be transported trans dermal, thats why there are creams and gels around. Doubt TD ate testosterone cream accidentally, but even then, it won't survive the first pass effect. The only available oral form is testosterone undecanoate (tradename Andriol) which is dissolved in oleic acid. The undecanoate is the ester attached to it and makes it highly fat soluble and absorption is achieved through the lymphatic system. This is the form Ferrari gave to them, ie the oil, and they had to keep it under their tongue so the lymphatic vessels in the mouth can absorb the testosterone (it never reaches the liver). It has a very short half life and if timed correctly, almost undetectable. See, it all becomes very difficult to trigger a synthetic testosterone test and then claim tainted supplement.

[Macadamia]

Wait a second, testosterone in supplements?! Where can I buy this magical supplement?


Various brands of body-building pre-workout powders have been taken off the shelves for containing steroids.

anyways, if I was him I wouldn't be taking anything not vetted by team doctors or an independent lab, assuming his/my pledge to not dope any more wasn't a lie

[jlwdm]

I am in agreement with a prior post. The biggest shock to me was that he was still on a team. I thought he was retired.

Jeff

[572cv]

The positive test is for synthetic testosterone. Unless the testosterone molecule is modified, it cannot survive what we call the "first pass effect" through the liver (ie when you take it orally). Thats why testosterone is mostly injected. It can be transported trans dermal, thats why there are creams and gels around. Doubt TD ate testosterone cream accidentally, but even then, it won't survive the first pass effect. The only available oral form is testosterone undecanoate (tradename Andriol) which is dissolved in oleic acid. The undecanoate is the ester attached to it and makes it highly fat soluble and absorption is achieved through the lymphatic system. This is the form Ferrari gave to them, ie the oil, and they had to keep it under their tongue so the lymphatic vessels in the mouth can absorb the testosterone (it never reaches the liver). It has a very short half life and if timed correctly, almost undetectable. See, it all becomes very difficult to trigger a synthetic testosterone test and then claim tainted supplement.

This was pretty interesting. Thanks for posting.

[Joachim]

Various brands of body-building pre-workout powders have been taken off the shelves for containing steroids.

anyways, if I was him I wouldn't be taking anything not vetted by team doctors or an independent lab, assuming his/my pledge to not dope any more wasn't a lie

Supplements may contain steroids, but unlikely they contain testosterone which he tested positive for. Read my post about it not surviving the first pass effect in the liver when taken orally. The positive test was for synthetic testosterone. Not orally available oxandrolone or stanozolol.

[54ny77]

Can I infuse "the oil" with some garlic and drizzle it on pappardelle?

Tastes great, improves performance. Win-win!

:D

The positive test is for synthetic testosterone. Unless the testosterone molecule is modified, it cannot survive what we call the "first pass effect" through the liver (ie when you take it orally). Thats why testosterone is mostly injected. It can be transported trans dermal, thats why there are creams and gels around. Doubt TD ate testosterone cream accidentally, but even then, it won't survive the first pass effect. The only available oral form is testosterone undecanoate (tradename Andriol) which is dissolved in oleic acid. The undecanoate is the ester attached to it and makes it highly fat soluble and absorption is achieved through the lymphatic system. This is the form Ferrari gave to them, ie the oil, and they had to keep it under their tongue so the lymphatic vessels in the mouth can absorb the testosterone (it never reaches the liver). It has a very short half life and if timed correctly, almost undetectable. See, it all becomes very difficult to trigger a synthetic testosterone test and then claim tainted supplement.

[harryblack]

HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH...

(insert infinite laughter here)

How can ** anyone ** be the least bit surprised, except, perhaps, that "Tommy" was sloppy enough to get caught?

Dumb dumb dumb dumb Tommy D. got away with it, essentially, once-- but like all others, Lance made him do it & then never again--

It was the core workouts that made him "great" and was going to aid his rise to the top again, wasn't it?

There are some grey areas with some athletes, inexporable pressure, the doper arms race etc...

But what part of Danielson's career hasn't been a fraud and how many chances does one guy actually get?

His expiration date was already long past if Vaughters had the slightest sense of "ethics" (hah hah hah).

And please, I know some folks are well-intentioned but nobody should spend even three seconds that could be used picking up litter to entertain a scenario where this was 'accidental' (except the getting caught part, natch).

[oldpotatoe]

I was shocked, too. I thought he retired 2 years ago. There is a young, talented rider out there washing dishes because this old, washed up (was he ever washed down??) cheater still has a contract. No other sport operates like this.

Rode next to Clark Sheehan for about 10 minutes this AM, he is smiling a lot. He and Hampsten have the same opinions of these LA era guys. Seems like there were dopers, who came clean, realized they were OTB w/o dope-retired(Leipheimer) and those who realized that they were OTB unless they doped, so did agin(TD).

[harryblack]

p/s-- from Ryan Trebon twitter (i don't know how to embed tweet)

https://twitter.com/ryantrebon/status/628106400896409600

Ryan Trebon ‏@ryantrebon 10h10 hours ago
Ryan Trebon retweeted VeloNews
HA!!! well nice work @tomdanielson just confirming what we already knew

Ryan Trebon added,

VeloNews @velonews
Defending champion Tom Danielson will not start Tour of Utah after notification from USADA of a failed anti doping test from July 9.

[Uncle Jam's Army]

How depressing, even for a cynic like me. I guess Danielson is our Ricco. Never been a fan of TD, but this news, combined with the news about the staggering number of Olympic athletes with suspicious tests, really hits home the pressures that young athletes must face to dope. How are you supposed to win when the game is rigged?

[Mark McM]

Seems like there were dopers, who came clean, realized they were OTB w/o dope-retired(Leipheimer) and those who realized that they were OTB unless they doped, so did agin(TD).

I wouldn't say that Levi Leipheimer retired voluntarily. He was fired by his team (the ironically named Pharma-Quickstep) and then failed to find another team to sign him.

[Shortsocks]

Tom Danielson to me is the SteroTypical Type A Overgeneralized CRIT guy who made it big. Thats it. Good Riddance.

I have NO CLUE how he's kept on this long? From the long list of bad stories Ive heard about this guy's Personal life,from people First hand, hes a rotten dude. Not a big Fan of his, he is add on to the LONG list of Embarrassments to U.S cycling. Can't we just move on?

[Burnette]

Right after the balloon finally busted with the Lance Armstrong story, you had to at some point ask yourself why pro riders have been caught doping every year since that day. Every year. It was huge, their biggest star and yet it continues.
Doping didn't start with Lance (he was very good at it and at suppressing leaks) and it certainly didn't end after he left.
There is no shock or suprise with cycling and doping for me. If it comes to light that Froome was juiced it would actually seem more real that he could just sit and spin to catch attacking riders who are standing and sprinting up a climb.
Pro Cycling has earned this perception because even after it's biggest winner of all time was cast out, more continue to do it long after he is gone.
Like Pro Football, Pro Cycling is a great show I like to watch. The holier than thou hypocritical organizers proclaiming 'we're a clean sport now", well, they have to do that for two groups.
The first group is advertisers/sponsors who don't want the truth, they want the image and a good story.
Second group are for the fans that are sensitive people who need a public showing to prop up their belief that doping is just a one off fringe thing done by a few bad people. Ah, the sport is still pure and clean as it always was (Ha!).
The cycling organizations and sponsors, even today, would turn a blind eye if a new rider had a heart warming story of early success that was taken away by ill fate, only for him to overcome it and regain success again and go on to win multiple Tours. The effect the last guy with this story had on the cycling industry in dollars and the Tour in eyes was phenomenal. They would do it again, keep the money and let the chap burn alone as they retooled for the next one. And trust me, they want a next one, badly. Froome is as dour and unsympathetic a figure as you can get.
Why do the riders do it today? Because the guy next to you is doing it and if you want to stay on a team and eek out a living, you do it. If you are exceptional and do it, you can have money and fame. The alternative is to go home if you're team level and clean, or be pack fodder if you're excpetional and clean.
"Did you hear about Tom?"
"Yeah, he never had the whole package"
"What do you mean, he wasn't physically versatile enough?"
"No, he didn't have the right team behind him to hide and support his
supplement and training program"

[velomonkey]

Go away. Leave. Never come back. Idiot.

[54ny77]

https://media1.giphy.com/media/kq1RZW3Hb3uHC/200_s.gif

Go away. Leave. Never come back. Idiot. http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=1697904627&stc=1&d=1438626452

[LegendRider]

I'm curious to hear Phil Gaimon's reaction. They trained together and Phil seemed to think highly of Danielson, despite his past.

From CyclingNews:
Optum Pro Cycling痴 Phil Gaimon, who recently wrote an article for Cyclingnews about what it means to be a clean rider, was one of the riders who didn稚 want to comment about Danielson, whom he considers a friend. An obviously shaken Gaimon simply told Cyclingnews before the stage that his worldview had been shattered.

[FlashUNC]

From CyclingNews:
Optum Pro Cycling痴 Phil Gaimon, who recently wrote an article for Cyclingnews about what it means to be a clean rider, was one of the riders who didn稚 want to comment about Danielson, whom he considers a friend. An obviously shaken Gaimon simply told Cyclingnews before the stage that his worldview had been shattered.

Then Phil needs to be a tad more skeptical. If there's anyone you could point to that went from donkey to, well, less-donkey in a surprising way, it was Tommy D.

Guy goes from being competitive, but not dominant at collegiate MTB nationals to crushing all comers in the domestic scene?

[christian]

Phil Gaimon, I have a bridge.

[KJMUNC]

Guy goes from being competitive, but not dominant at collegiate MTB nationals to crushing all comers in the domestic scene?

And then he gets signed by arguably the biggest team in Europe at the time, Fassa Bortolo. People forget he rode with them for a year before giving up and going Disco.

That Fassa team was a murders row: Pozzato, Petacchi, Flecha, Cancellara, Cioni, Aitor Gonzalez, Sacchi, Tosatto, Trenti, and Marco Velo.....Lots of dudes who won big races once and then never again. And a few who have won lots of races for a long time.....

[PQJ]

Phil Gaimon, I have a bridge.

This. Phil G and Phil L should go out for a meal some time.

[mistermo]

What's puzzling to me are all those, even within the racing community, who seem to have "known" TD couldn't compete clean. Garmin seems to have staked their reputation on clean and credible cycling. So why would they have signed this guy who now, everyone agrees, has been dirty? Seems that either TD pulled a massive heist, or Garmin is complicit. I hope it's not the latter.

[beeatnik]

If you're surprised by this news, shift your thinking a little bit. Don't think of him as an athlete. Think of him as a drug addict or alcoholic who is capable of all of the things people with those problems do.

I don't like your style as you've insulted every junkie and alcoholic in the history of dependency.

[peanutgallery]

I bet Kalan Beisel feels somewhat vindicated
https://twitter.com/kalan_beisel/status/502560055737466880?nav=true

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BvlztL8IYAAhyYb.jpg

[harryblack]

What's puzzling to me are all those, even within the racing community, who seem to have "known" TD couldn't compete clean. Garmin seems to have staked their reputation on clean and credible cycling. So why would they have signed this guy who now, everyone agrees, has been dirty? Seems that either TD pulled a massive heist, or Garmin is complicit. I hope it's not the latter.

Vaughters has been a fraud in ** every ** stage of his cycling career: racer, awful Cycle Sport columnist, manager. Where one draws the line between lies, willful ignorance and self-deception... Who can say?

Also, for those who have heard tales of peleton's underside, this is too funny, from Danny Pate twitter--

https://twitter.com/TheDPate/status/628309783662198784

Note Vaughters seems to magically disappeared; maybe he's gone underground with Walter Palmer, gave him a stuffed Tour de France lion to keep quiet?

[don compton]

After all this discussion, I just realized or remembered that TD is on Vaughter's team. Either TD is a total piece of ?ｷ?ｷ?ｷ?ｷ or Vaughters is a fraud.
Meanwhile, I will enjoy riding my Riv Roadeo with my buds and thinking, who gives a ｷｷｷｷ.

[Keith A]

I just saw this quote from JV...

In February, Vaughters told Cyclingnews, "It's true we ask for that [scrutiny] and still in ten years we've not had a rider dope on our team. Ever. We've lived up to that. That was the initial promise. If that ever is broken then Doug and I are out."

[velomonkey]

Vaughters has been a fraud in ** every ** stage of his cycling career: racer, awful Cycle Sport columnist, manager.

Don't forget he was a fraud with facial hair and style.

I mean, the guy was Lance's doctor - does any of this really surprise anyone.

[CunegoFan]

What's puzzling to me are all those, even within the racing community, who seem to have "known" TD couldn't compete clean. Garmin seems to have staked their reputation on clean and credible cycling. So why would they have signed this guy who now, everyone agrees, has been dirty? Seems that either TD pulled a massive heist, or Garmin is complicit. I hope it's not the latter.

JV's intent is not to run a zero tolerance public relations scam like Team Sky. It is to provide an environment where riders don't fear losing their contracts because they don't dope but get poor results versus doped competition. The belief is that such a policy can change the culture in pro cycling and once the culture is changed, those who dope will be ostracized by the clean riders.

He hires riders he believes have the physiology to be reasonably competitive without doping. The belief there is that enhanced testing by the UCI and the ABP will reduce the possible gains from doping to a small enough value that the best natural riders will be able to win occasionally.

JV is also accepting of what riders had to do to be a European professional. He does not have the insane Hater-Aid for dopers that most anti-dopers seem to have. He does have a line of roughly 2008 before which he accepts that doping was a defensible practice given the state of the sport.

In short he has aimed for a practical policy that he hopes will eventually produce change. Unfortunately he has not done a good job of explaining his position. You don't see him spending much time describing why riders had to dope in the 90s through 00s and why they should not be demonized for their decisions. Even more unfortunate is that Sky has stolen the spotlight with its stance, which is based purely on public relations rather than practicality and the reality of working within a sport where nearly everyone has prior ties to doping.

TD was hired because he displayed fantastic values in testing. He is mentally weak so there may have been the thought that he could be toughened up to reach more of his potential. JV may also see a bit of himself in TD because both could perform well when rested but would run into problems over multiple days of hard racing.

[don compton]

JV's intent is not to run a zero tolerance public relations scam like Team Sky. It is to provide an environment where riders don't fear losing their contracts because they don't dope but get poor results versus doped competition. The belief is that such a policy can change the culture in pro cycling and once the culture is changed, those who dope will be ostracized by the clean riders.

He hires riders he believes have the physiology to be reasonably competitive without doping. The belief there is that enhanced testing by the UCI and the ABP will reduce the possible gains from doping to a small enough value that the best natural riders will be able to win occasionally.

JV is also accepting of what riders had to do to be a European professional. He does not have the insane Hater-Aid for dopers that most anti-dopers seem to have. He does have a line of roughly 2008 before which he accepts that doping was a defensible practice given the state of the sport.

In short he has aimed for a practical policy that he hopes will eventually produce change. Unfortunately he has not done a good job of explaining his position. You don't see him spending much time describing why riders had to dope in the 90s through 00s and why they should not be demonized for their decisions. Even more unfortunate is that Sky has stolen the spotlight with its stance, which is based purely on public relations rather than practicality and the reality of working within a sport where nearly everyone has prior ties to doping.

TD was hired because he displayed fantastic values in testing. He is mentally weak so there may have been the thought that he could be toughened up to reach more of his potential. JV may also see a bit of himself in TD because both could perform well when rested but would run into problems over multiple days of hard racing.
Was this written by Vaughter's PR guys?

[oldpotatoe]

I wouldn't say that Levi Leipheimer retired voluntarily. He was fired by his team (the ironically named Pharma-Quickstep) and then failed to find another team to sign him.

I get it but I doubt he would be too stupid to proceed to dope again, like TD did.

[fuzzalow]

I get it but I doubt he would be too stupid to proceed to dope again, like TD did.

I respectfully disagree. They just try harder or alter their program, if possible because they may not have the finances to buy expertise in revising to a newer, less detectable program.

I do not see this as an error is stupidity on the part of a ride to dope again. It is the singular pervasive method necessity to perform at the level at which they know how and that has been capable of creating a paycheck for their chosen profession.

[soulspinner]

I respectfully disagree. They just try harder or alter their program, if possible because they may not have the finances to buy expertise in revising to a newer, less detectable program.

I do not see this as an error is stupidity on the part of a ride to dope again. It is the singular pervasive method necessity to perform at the level at which they know how and that has been capable of creating a paycheck for their chosen profession.

Unfortunately I think you are correct.

[oldpotatoe]

I respectfully disagree. They just try harder or alter their program, if possible because they may not have the finances to buy expertise in revising to a newer, less detectable program.

I do not see this as an error is stupidity on the part of a ride to dope again. It is the singular pervasive method necessity to perform at the level at which they know how and that has been capable of creating a paycheck for their chosen profession.

Get what you are saying but the addiction to this lifestyle makes some of these guys(TD) do some pretty stupid things. Without this latest, TD 'may' have had a career outside bike racing but w/I 'bikes', unlikely now. Dumb. A risk-benefit situation, was the 'green stamp' pile higher than the 'red stamp' pile? Was until now.

[Uncle Jam's Army]

Who really thinks JV will fold the team, as promised, if TD's B sample comes back positive?

[MattTuck]

Who really thinks JV will fold the team, as promised, if TD's B sample comes back positive?

he said that?

[Uncle Jam's Army]

he said that?

Back in February, he said if one rider was popped, the whole team would be fired and he would be out. I think someone quoted that interview in this thread. It would seem to be official with a B Sample, no?

[MattTuck]

wow. that is nuts to say. Either supremely confident or trying to be a showman.

I do think Vaughters is in it for the right reasons (even if I can't stand the guy), so I hope it doesn't come to that.

[Auk]

JV will stutter and mumble that if it was up to him, he'd fold the team, but after discussion with the investors and sponsors, who have dedicated their time and money to the team, and the supporters worldwide, he finds that his hands are tied and the only fair thing to do for them is to continue on and show that they are committed to the righteous cause. He will include at least two fist thumps to the table he's standing behind.

[earlfoss]

From what I can tell, it seems like JV no longer holds enough ownership of the team to fold it. I highly doubt the team will fold but I can imagine him selling off whatever ownership he does have and walking away.

The most likely scenario in my mind would be JV releasing a b.s. statement justifying a decision to remain an owner and just boot Tommy off the squad.

[xjoex]

Clear up what is really the biggest question for me; is he married with a girlfriend? A polygamist ? Just a weird interview?

-Joe

[Wesley37]

As long as it is consenting adults involved, prolly none of our business

[cloudguy]

From what I can surmise, he was married, then cheated on his first wife with a woman that became his second wife (and whom he now has two kids with) and then cheated on his second wife with his new girlfriend. Im guessing that he and the second wife are divorced or are in the process of getting divorced. Obviously, the T was used to support all the lovin', not for the ridin'.

[rwsaunders]

Clear up what is really the biggest question for me; is he married with a girlfriend? A polygamist ? Just a weird interview?

-Joe

Joe...that's why the Tour of Utah is so special to TD...

[jr59]

As long as it is consenting adults involved, prolly none of our business

^^This^^

[oldpotatoe]

From what I can tell, it seems like JV no longer holds enough ownership of the team to fold it. I highly doubt the team will fold but I can imagine him selling off whatever ownership he does have and walking away.

The most likely scenario in my mind would be JV releasing a b.s. statement justifying a decision to remain an owner and just boot Tommy off the squad.

If JV had the courage of his convictions, he would quit but I think he is a blowhard, won't leave.

[oldpotatoe]

Joe...that's why the Tour of Utah is so special to TD...

Funny.

[ceolwulf]

If JV had the courage of his convictions, he would quit but I think he is a blowhard, won't leave.


http://twitter.com/Vaughters/status/628554861865529344

Called it.

[Waldo]

Snip from above:

Originally Posted by Mark McM View Post
I wouldn't say that Levi Leipheimer retired voluntarily. He was fired by his team (the ironically named Pharma-Quickstep) and then failed to find another team to sign him.

I get it but I doubt he would be too stupid to proceed to dope again, like TD did.

Doesn't Levi dope to win Grasshoppers and his Fondue?

[Shortsocks]

http://twitter.com/Vaughters/status/628554861865529344

Called it.

Dudes a tool. A very well dressed tool, but a tool regardless. What a shame I was hoping he would stick to the courage of his convictions.

[Nooch]

Anybody catch LA's tweet @Vaughters?

@Vaughters those good people would be better off without you.

Burn.

[rwsaunders]

http://twitter.com/Vaughters/status/628554861865529344

Called it.

JV has all of the (spin, deflect and forget) qualities that we seek in a presidential candidate. I'm speaking with my wallet this time...back to a wireless CatEye for me...:cool:

[MattTuck]

JV has all of the (spin, deflect and forget) qualities that we seek in a presidential candidate. I'm speaking with my wallet this time...back to a wireless CatEye for me...:cool:

Polar has some nice new cycling products :)

[e-RICHIE]

I'm speaking with my wallet this time...back to a wireless CatEye for me...:cool:

Agreed. I think that's the only way things will change. The only way.

[54ny77]

I have a Garmin 800 that I bought from an ex-pro who was selling stuff in order to, I'll guess, meet rent or buy pasta in bulk at Costco....

Gotta love pro cycling. Dope, ride, get big bucks. Don't dope, be pro pack fill at best, sell leftover year-end stuff on the side for a few bucks in order to eat.

What a country!

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-GVSH1ZcbSoM/UxcW8gBuMyI/AAAAAAAAG14/gjWHnDFxyQk/s1600/what-a-country-yakov.jpg

I'm speaking with my wallet this time...back to a wireless CatEye for me...:cool:

[dpk501]

I would kill to have David Millar comment on this....

[rwsaunders]

Agreed. I think that's the only way things will change. The only way.

I hear you ER. Although I'm just a small speck of sand on the consumer beach, I sent this to the attention of Garmin's Chairman and CEO earlier today on their "contact us" section of their website...probably already in their junk mail.

Please ask Dr. Kao and Mr. Pemble to immediately have Jonathan Vaughters removed from the management of the cycling team that you help to fund and sponsor. Both Mr. Vaughter's past and current involvement with doping in prossional cycling is a poor reflection of the image that your firm seeks to maintain, and I find it hard to believe that the current Danielson issue is not the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. I for one, will not purchase your products because of your affiliation with known "dopers" and I find it hard to believe that I am the only individual who also feels this way.

Regards,
RW Saunders

[tiretrax]

Anybody catch LA's tweet @Vaughters?



Burn.

Saw that, too. Doesn't get much better than that.

JV is PT - Barnum, that is.

[joe.e]

Anybody catch LA's tweet @Vaughters?



Burn.

saw it. smiled a little bit.

jv always struck me as smarmy and fake. Maybe its the clothes, but he goes out of his way to project this character that I don't think anyone (even himself) really believes him to be.

[tiretrax]

I doubt Garmin can fire JV, but they can pull their sponsorship, which would have more impactful consequences!
I hear you ER. Although I'm just a small speck of sand on the consumer beach, I sent this to the attention of Garmin's Chairman and CEO earlier today on their "contact us" section of their website...probably already in their junk mail.

Please ask Dr. Kao and Mr. Pemble to immediately have Jonathan Vaughters removed from the management of the cycling team that you help to fund and sponsor. Both Mr. Vaughter's past and current involvement with doping in prossional cycling is a poor reflection of the image that your firm seeks to maintain, and I find it hard to believe that the current Danielson issue is not the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. I for one, will not purchase your products because of your affiliation with known "dopers" and I find it hard to believe that I am the only individual who also feels this way.

Regards,
RW Saunders

[earlfoss]

LOL

https://twitter.com/TheDPate/status/628309783662198784

[CunegoFan]

I doubt Garmin can fire JV, but they can pull their sponsorship, which would have more impactful consequences!

The team has had a terrible season. This is the most media coverage the team has received this year. Garmin is probably trying to figure out how to get another team member to pop a positive. :)

[mistermo]

I don't get the implications y'all are making. TD was the doper, not Team Garmin. If Team Garmin is systematically doping, ala Postal, then yes, JV is to blame and Garmin, Inc should wise up and pull sponsorship.

However, if TD went rogue, as I imagine is the case, then why do you want to take down a team that is otherwise clean? And why would one boycott a company who has made it their mission to support clean cycling? I'm of the view that TD acted solo, without the team's, JV's, and sponsor's knowledge. There's no way for any Director or sponsor to control their riders' actions 100% of the time. Blame the rider, not the team or sponsor.

[oldpotatoe]

I don't get the implications y'all are making. TD was the doper, not Team Garmin. If Team Garmin is systematically doping, ala Postal, then yes, JV is to blame and Garmin, Inc should wise up and pull sponsorship.

However, if TD went rogue, as I imagine is the case, then why do you want to take down a team that is otherwise clean? And why would one boycott a company who has made it their mission to support clean cycling? I'm of the view that TD acted solo, without the team's, JV's, and sponsor's knowledge. There's no way for any Director or sponsor to control their riders' actions 100% of the time. Blame the rider, not the team or sponsor.

I agree, I don't think this instance is systematic, team doping policy BUT JV has hung his hat on always having a clean team. Signing TD should have been a bad idea, JVs idea. Lonely at the top. JV says he would do drastic things if anybody on HIS team pops..they did, he should, he didn't, he won't.

I wouldn't chuck my Garmin or NewBalance or anything else, stuff for TD being an idiot but I wouldn't use/buy/watch/participate in anything TD was involved in for the future(like hincapie-clothes, leipehimer-grand fondo, mellowjonnys anything(who works in the basement there?)-etc).

[rwsaunders]

When you have a Director Sportif who has admitted to doping during his tenure as a cyclist, proclaim that he's going to run a clean team, you become skeptical at best. Think Bernard Riis, Johann Bruyneel and Vinokurov...fine company indeed.

Then he (JV) states to the public that if a rider on his team is busted, he will personally step aside and leave, or perhaps fold the team.

Then after TD is busted, he (JV) proclaims that instead of stepping down, he will stay on as that is the selfless thing to do. What a hero.

Nobody is asking the team to go away, just the selfish, conceited, hypocrite that's running it.

[peanutgallery]

No way he's stepping down, he needs this gig. How else will he still be able to afford to dress like an English fop? Seriously, though...he needs the income - probably leveraged for it

http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2008/0115/oly_lg_slipstream8832_718.jpg

When you have a Director Sportif who has admitted to doping during his tenure as a cyclist, proclaim that he's going to run a clean team, you become skeptical at best. Think Bernard Riis, Johann Bruyneel and Vinokurov...fine company indeed.

Then he (JV) states to the public that if a rider on his team is busted, he will personally step aside and leave, or perhaps fold the team.

Then after TD is busted, he (JV) proclaims that instead of stepping down, he will stay on as that is the selfless thing to do. What a hero.

Nobody is asking the team to go away, just the selfish, conceited, hypocrite that's running it.

[soulspinner]

No way he's stepping down, he needs this gig. How else will he still be able to afford to dress like an English fop? Seriously, though...he needs the income - probably leveraged for it

http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2008/0115/oly_lg_slipstream8832_718.jpg

All that wine aint cheap ya know...:beer:

[Waldo]

^^^

Either JV is a mouth breather or his lips move when he reads...

[William]

No way he's stepping down, he needs this gig. How else will he still be able to afford to dress like an English fop? Seriously, though...he needs the income - probably leveraged for it

http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2008/0115/oly_lg_slipstream8832_718.jpg

He won't go....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T575Pbo4eWM





William

[45K10]

^^^

Either JV is a mouth breather or his lips move when he reads...

I nearly spit watermelon all over my laptop, hilarious!

[tiretrax]

He won't go....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T575Pbo4eWM


William

Awesome!

[mistermo]

... JV has hung his hat on always having a clean team. Signing TD should have been a bad idea, JVs idea. Lonely at the top. JV says he would do drastic things if anybody on HIS team pops..they did, he should, he didn't, he won't.


For whatever flaws JV has, and according to this thread he has many, I think he's done more to shepherd in the clean cycling era than any other DS on the Pro Tour. I think it would be a pity for one bad apple (TD) to have enough influence to push out a guy who formed a team that has made a difference.

Like him or not, JV has made a difference and I'm not of the opinion that a "principled" man would quit when the going suddenly became a little rougher.

[Uncle Jam's Army]

For whatever flaws JV has, and according to this thread he has many, I think he's done more to shepherd in the clean cycling era than any other DS on the Pro Tour. I think it would be a pity for one bad apple (TD) to have enough influence to push out a guy who formed a team that has made a difference.

Like him or not, JV has made a difference and I'm not of the opinion that a "principled" man would quit when the going suddenly became a little rougher.

What has JV done to clean up the sport? Serious question. Does he do random testing on his riders? Does he monitor closely their blood values? So far, all I know he does is claim his team is clean and make promises about what he'll do if one of his riders gets popped.

[ericssonboi]

What has JV done to clean up the sport? Serious question. Does he do random testing on his riders? Does he monitor closely their blood values? So far, all I know he does is claim his team is clean and make promises about what he'll do if one of his riders gets popped.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2015/08/commentary/commentary-vaughters-and-unintended-consequences_380654

[peanutgallery]

DZ, Ryder, himself? And now Danielson twice? Sure there's probably more. Look how carefully he parses the facts. Its all the same, no matter the team story that is created

Lets not fool ourselves, its about the $ and the content management than it is about this altruistic "clean" team. JV is smart and just playing everyone for fools and the show must go on. No different than anyone else. New narrative in 3, 2, 1.....


For whatever flaws JV has, and according to this thread he has many, I think he's done more to shepherd in the clean cycling era than any other DS on the Pro Tour. I think it would be a pity for one bad apple (TD) to have enough influence to push out a guy who formed a team that has made a difference.

Like him or not, JV has made a difference and I'm not of the opinion that a "principled" man would quit when the going suddenly became a little rougher.

[mistermo]

What has JV done to clean up the sport? Serious question. Does he do random testing on his riders? Does he monitor closely their blood values? So far, all I know he does is claim his team is clean and make promises about what he'll do if one of his riders gets popped.

https://vimeo.com/60851011

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/independent-testing-to-continue-alongside-ucis-biological-passports/

[Rusty Luggs]

For whatever flaws JV has, and according to this thread he has many, I think he's done more to shepherd in the clean cycling era than any other DS on the Pro Tour. I think it would be a pity for one bad apple (TD) to have enough influence to push out a guy who formed a team that has made a difference.

Like him or not, JV has made a difference and I'm not of the opinion that a "principled" man would quit when the going suddenly became a little rougher.

So, if you intended to "shepherd in the clean era of cycling", how many riders with a doping history would you hire?

[mistermo]

So, if you intended to "shepherd in the clean era of cycling", how many riders with a doping history would you hire?

One can be a former doper and ride clean (notwithstanding TD). I think Team Garmin has been pretty open with their view that they'd accept clean riders with a doping past, provided they'd ride clean. From your comment, you assume one can't be a change for good, if one has a tainted past. I disagree.

[mcteague]

Wow, even with one removed LA has quite a pair. But very little self awareness it appears.
http://stevetilford.com/2015/08/05/jonathan-vaughters-the-team-will-continue/

Tim

[christian]

One can be a former doper and ride clean (notwithstanding TD). I think Team Garmin has been pretty open with their view that they'd accept clean riders with a doping past, provided they'd ride clean. From your comment, you assume one can't be a change for good, if one has a tainted past. I disagree.

If you wanted to run a clean team, would you hire a guy who was notorious for doping to win the collegiate XC MTB championship and who associated with doping doctors his whole career. If there was anyone not to bet on his riding clean, it was TD. Presumably Vaughters would know this better than I as he runs a ProTour team and I work in Financial Services.

[54ny77]

Evil! Scourge!

I work in Financial Services.

[bcroslin]

Wow, even with one removed LA has quite a pair. But very little self awareness it appears.
http://stevetilford.com/2015/08/05/jonathan-vaughters-the-team-will-continue/

Tim

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view4/1597079/damn-o.gif

[jimoots]

Wow, even with one removed LA has quite a pair. But very little self awareness it appears.
http://stevetilford.com/2015/08/05/jonathan-vaughters-the-team-will-continue/

Tim

I feel like this is LA employing a classic 'pivot' move, from doper to... something else.