are roadies inherently unpleasant?

[fiataccompli]

while I realize, this is a tired concept, a friend and I have had the rather unwelcome opportunity for it to become a discussion topic and I thought i'd try to encapsulate it for a discussion here in an effort to gut check my interpretation. So...

Like many, we ride competitively, with a club, race with a larger group of club members and there are the usual high intensity TNW rides along with other loosely organized club training type rides. The TNW is a fast double rotating paceline (some call echelon?) format & other rides may vary in format. One thing that seems to persist with all of the rides is the existence of certain riders who are oft to yell abrasive corrections or criticisms of other riders. While I completely understand the need to communicate quickly/efficiently when there are issues of safety with a rider (ie, doing stuff that's just dangerous in a group..I get that), I see a lot of this being doled out for what I would see as rather minor issues of annoyance: pulling too hard up a hill, slowing slightly pulling through so as to let a strung out group close gaps, letting a gap open up somewhere, etc. OK, I get that this stuff can be annoying & tiring and when it happens consistently some correction is needed...but is it considered 'normal' etiquette to respond with things like "slow the f__ down", "you GD ____", "close the F'ing gap", etc. (basically, some corrective instruction housed in an angry tone and usually peppered with some sort of condescending sounding personal insult or name)?

Why do I care? Well, the club struggles with membership and participation. In general, there's an underlying reputation for being a bit elitist and perhaps being a bunch of pricks. I'd like to see people get into the sport. A certain population is going to be either the recipient of this anger or witness it & decide to not come back or not do much with the club. Personally, I find it just as unpleasant as a mis-tuned derailleur ticking in a paceline...I can't really grasp the need to communicate with anger if your point is actually to improve the skills/behavior of the riders around you. And, I guess I also land on the thought that are you really that put out by a slight gap? I mean, don't you have to close those a lot when you're racing anyway?...not that you want it, but it's not on par with someone brake-checking you..

As a counter case-in-point, another local club with a similar population of racers/etc. has a regular ride that while it is not a TNW format, it is highly organized. On that ride, the leader is often quick to offer corrections to riders who may be less familiar with the format...so I hear stuff like, "hey, try to hold your speed steady as you pull through, ok?" or "let's all stay tight & to the right through here" or "when you're rotating back, be sure not to cross the center line"...basically a very different tone & I believe one that is more effective.

So, am I being unreasonable to expect people to be a little more pleasant/respectful/etc. communicating? Am I just being reminded of why I purposely stayed clear of organized cycling for years & years when I was younger? What brought this up was a recent outing when it became apparent that a new,younger club member has apparently fully embraced the highly abrasive communication style and a conversation about what kind of handbasket the club may be traveling in.

If you've gotten this far, thanks for your time in indulging this.

[drewellison]

Maybe this explains it.

Full credit to Stephan Pastis, Used without permission for non-commercial purpose.

[Lewis Moon]

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/53100750.jpg

[gary_a_gooner]

Yes

[unterhausen]

my experience with roadies (and cyclists in general) has been that there is a higher proportion of introverts relative to the rest of humanity. Everybody thinks that introverts are rude.

I used to ride with a guy who was a natural on the bike. He won the state championship in one of his first races. But if you met him out on the road, he wouldn't acknowledge you at all. I asked him about it once, and he said he didn't see me.

[Mzilliox]

Im new to serious cycling. I am seeing this, often, and from dudes who seem like adults on the surface. Some roadies seem great, but a vast majority act like what they are doing is some amazing language only the enlightened can understand. it gets much worse when you put them in a group. I think maybe its that their balls have been squeezed too tight for so long. My balls have only been squeezed for a few months so i have not built up the level of anger or awesomeness just yet. perhaps another year or so of compression and I will understand.

These effin guys... as if we are doing something beyond just riding a bike. Its just riding a bike man, 8yr olds do it all the time, and with much less ego.:crap:

I like the group you speak of where they use adult words and forms of communication to help other less experienced riders out. I would consider a group ride in a situation like that. Because cycling with others can and should be fun. as it stands, I won't join a club or go on group rides because of the stories i hear. who wants to join a group where they are treated like an outsider?

[fiataccompli]

to clarify, both those groups are populated with successful racers who train regularly and both groups have points of serious fast & furious speed...but the difference in vibe is rather dramatic & it almost seems to permeate down to the topics for the usual chatter that accompanies the periods of lower intensity (ie, "who really did something wrong in such-and-such race" vs. "how is work going?")

[Kirk007]

That there are a disproportionate number of assholes per capita in road cycling than other sports seems more than anecdotal, given the volume of anecdotes.

Perhaps the behavour is so ugly cause there's so little at stake? Being a hot shot at the TNW - well if that's all you have to stroke your ego and sense of self worth ....

The beauty of it though is that you can self select. Why bother with the asshole group when you can ride with a more welcoming group and help that group grow and attract more people to the sport? Or as you've done in the past - stay away from big group rides.

I think there is sometimes a human inclination on the part of all of us to want to hang at the cool kid lunch table, which often has a few participants who try to make up for a lack of the right stuff with obnoxiousness. If all the good guys in the first group left, then the buttheads could just ride with and scream at one another - seems like a just result.

Alternatively, if there are redeeming virtues to the first group, why stay silent in the group when someone is being a d*ckhead. Nothing will change if you don't call them out. Bullies are bullies in part because others let them be. Maybe there's a lot of riders in the group who are also bothered by it but don't want to say anything -- get some allies and have a discussion perhaps?

[fiataccompli]

great point on discussing. I think the newest recruit to that behavior might be save-able, but some of the other proponents probably would actually prefer to only have their own self-selected elite crew with them. There's only so much theorizing to do without having a discussion.

[peanutgallery]

The answer is yes, they are anti-social and delusional about their ability and worth on the bike. My name is Peanutgallery and I am a recovering roadie

Last night I did a local mtb race, in the midst of of a battle for position (like 15th place, probably) we lapped a few freds that were in the process of flopping like fish in the middle of the trail after being unable to negotiate a log. I had to stop, get off and run as they were oblivious to the tempest of testosterone that had rolled up behind them. I bitched at them like any roadie would, don't remember what I said but I am sure it was unpleasant. Screwed up my rhythm and killed the little gap I had eeked out

After the race I did make a point of seeking them out and giving them a beer and an apology. The old roadie in me would have never done that. I'm trying

[unterhausen]

some of you people must have never spent any quality time around your high school football or baseball team.

[bcroslin]

We in St Pete have a training ride that has been termed as the "meanest ride in the south." There is a core group of guys that has been riding together for over 20 years and they've seen riders come and go. They can be an unfriendly bunch and I often tell them that being accepted into the group was much like being "beaten in" to a gang. They don't suffer fools and unfortunately there's been a lot of fools over the years. They sometimes yell at people and they occasionally yell at each other and they can come off as a bunch of jerks for the uninitiated. I've tried to be the person who coaches newcomers before the yelling starts but once it starts there's not much I can do. The "elders" of the group want a safe ride and if it means yelling at the occasional trip-weanie or mtb'er who wants to be a roadie and losing their potential membership in the group so be it.

I've been riding with them for ten years and it's the safest group of people I've ever ridden with. I've also made some great friends in the group. The dynamic of the group is changing a little as some of the older guys age out to the slower club rides but the desire for a safe ride means people are still occasionally going to get yelled at.

With all of that said, my advice to assert yourself more and try and be the leader you wish others would be. Try heading issues off before they get to a point where the yelling starts. If there's a rider that has a short fuse and is always yelling maybe find some time to talk to them and ask them to chill out. Some people don't realize they're being jerks because when you're hot, sweaty and on the rivet and someone crosses your wheel or opens a gap it's easy to get upset. My guess is that it's the same person doing all the yelling and he doesn't realize he's being a jerk.

[Jaq]

Ride with the other group.

[fiataccompli]

some of you people must have never spent any quality time around your high school football or baseball team.

in my mind that may be a contradiction in terms

[Kirk007]

some of you people must have never spent any quality time around your high school football or baseball team.

true that but we were all teenage idiots then. Most of us, even the jackasses seem to gotten over ourselves since then.

[mktng]

we all have groups like that around.
find another group to ride with. i dont bother with the super "elite" group rides.
takes the fun out of riding.

[gdw]

Unterhausen is right. From what I've seen a lot of the more obnoxious cyclists are one dimensional athletes who never played team or contact sports. They aren't overly coordinated, not needed for road cycling, and have never had to worry about being physically put in their place -tackled, checked, etc- by teammates or opponents for poor behavior.

If you want a laugh, introduce a Nerf football to a post ride BBQ.

[bcroslin]

some of you people must have never spent any quality time around your high school football or baseball team.

It's funny you bring this up. I grew up skateboarding and never dealt with coaches screaming at me and calling me names to "motivate" me. Years ago I had the extreme displeasure to work for a Sports editor at one of the top newspapers in the country that would constantly berate everyone who worked for him. He was/ is a total jerk and I hated him. One day I was walking around complaining about him and a good friend pulled me aside and explained the "ball coach" school of management to me. It basically goes something like everyone around you is worthless and it's up to you to yell at them until they get in line. It's a terrible way to manage people and an awful way to interact with others but once you realize what you're dealing with it makes things a little easier.

[fiataccompli]

neither is really more "elite", just one acts as if. I tend to think if you can't communicate under those circumstances without coming off as a prick, then maybe you are beyond your capacity. Maybe not? Again, I'm not talking about stuff that might send someone to the ER, I'm talking about stuff that may be unwelcome, but probably at the worst will cause someone to exert .25 more TSS or may slightly change some aspect of the velocity at a given moment.

[sitzmark]

some of you people must have never spent any quality time around your high school football or baseball team.

:thumbsup:

[DCilliams]

Unterhausen is right. From what I've seen a lot of the more obnoxious cyclists are one dimensional athletes who never played team or contact sports. They aren't overly coordinated, not needed for road cycling, and have never had to worry about being physically put in their place -tackled, checked, etc- by teammates or opponents for poor behavior.

If you want a laugh, introduce a Nerf football to a post ride BBQ.

This.

[Seramount]

some of you people must have never spent any quality time around your high school football or baseball team.

yep, my other point of reference for sports group dynamics is diving.

at the recreational level, one can pretty much get away with anything because almost every participant is more or less a dork. however, once you transition to technical diving, it's game-on for brutal criticisms...

equipment, gear configurations, certifications, trim/buoyancy/finning skills, gas selections, deco profiles are all scrutinized ad nauseum.

not doing what the cool kids are...? then you're going to get the hairy eyeball look, a snicker, a snide comment at the very least. screw up in a cave or wreck and silt the place out and you're now a candidate for serious verbal abuse once topside.

I've seen a couple of fist fights and cars of 'sketchy' divers vandalized as a reminder to not be a 'stroke' (diving equivalent of a Fred)...

'delicate flower' types don't last long.

[downtube]

Let's face it, we are a unique group, How many people can give 100% focus for multiple hours on one activity. And repeat this over and over, day after day. Riding in a group at speed is intense and the stress brings out the worst in some humans. I burned out on group rides a couple of years ago, now ride with my wife and a couple like minded friends and we have a lot of fun. I will admit my pace has slowed some but I am ok not having to deal with all the craziness. I am not a racer, just love to ride.
chuck

[KJMUNC]

Sounds like your club has leaders who engage/support that type of behavior.....never going to change the culture if they keep that up.

I've been around a number of clubs and have seen all stripes. The ones with the fastest growth and considered "most fun" to be with all had this in common: the people leading them were structured, but didn't take it too seriously, went out of their way to connect with new people (not just tell them what they're doing wrong), and generally made it a fun group to hang out around.

The clubs I've been around that are similar to yours all had this in common: one (or more) people running the show took things waaaay too seriously, considered all new people as turds until they hung around and proved themselves, and generally were prickish to most.

I prefer the former....this is my hobby and something I enjoy doing. No reason to bring such negative energy to a sport we all love.

[eBAUMANN]

strict, organized, "paceline oriented" rides are THE WORST. not only are they kinda unsafe (because you are relying heavily on the competency of those around you), they also tend to bring out that certain type of cyclist.

in general, i hate riding in a paceline. if i cant see the road ahead of me because im on someone else's wheel, im not comfortable, at all.

so yea, super organized group rides, no thanks.

[fiataccompli]

sadly (maybe) I really enjoy riding in a paceline and I like challenging & high intensity rides.

relatedly, it was pointed out to me that the mark of a healthy club or team is something along the lines of that the people are actually friends and enjoy the company of one another. I suppose that varies. Although I do not ride MTB or really CX, I wish we could learn a bit from those cultures in how to work together.

meant to add...the subject group is actually not one that has evolved into being remarkably safe and without incident. Stuff happens. It's not a sketchy, squirrely group, but it's not one where I would be drawn to conclude that the barking actually does have the effect of making it a safe place to ride at high speeds & close proximities.

[Kirk007]

yep, my other point of reference for sports group dynamics is diving.

at the recreational level, one can pretty much get away with anything because almost every participant is more or less a dork. however, once you transition to technical diving, it's game-on for brutal criticisms...

equipment, gear configurations, certifications, trim/buoyancy/finning skills, gas selections, deco profiles are all scrutinized ad nauseum.

not doing what the cool kids are...? then you're going to get the hairy eyeball look, a snicker, a snide comment at the very least. screw up in a cave or wreck and silt the place out and you're now a candidate for serious verbal abuse once topside.

I've seen a couple of fist fights and cars of 'sketchy' divers vandalized as a reminder to not be a 'stroke' (diving equivalent of a Fred)...

'delicate flower' types don't last long.

One important distinction I think - diving, even recreational, involves a significant risk of death, (not to downplay the risks of riding in a group on the rivet at high speed but I don't perceive the risk as anywhere near the same). I'm a DM, my son an instructor - he quit as he got sick of pulling dumbasses back to the boat half drowned as they weren't paying attention to even basics. And of course the same dynamics plays out in the instructor/guide crowd - those who can deal with people professionally and kindly, even when firmness is required and those who just can't seem to be anything but a jerk. The tech crowd - yep a lot of testosterone there, but hey, if your in a cave or doing deep dives, again the risk of death is significant and there is a point to the GUE/DIR crowd's insistance of gear configurations etc (that said many in that crowd do seem to suffer Seal Team envy). Tech configurations are huge in the Pacific NW even for open ocean diving and for good reason. And like the cycling groups, there are groups that are safe, chill and welcoming and then there's the other group ...
But in any group, on the road or in a cave, being very competent at what you do is the best way to deal with this.

[oldpotatoe]

"So, am I being unreasonable to expect people to be a little more pleasant/respectful/etc. communicating?"

No

Find a new club or start one yourself.

[Avincent52]

Who you calling unpleasant, A$$h@le?

[El Chaba]

There is an impression out there that we cyclists are condescending......That means we talk down to people.....

[El Chaba]

who you calling unpleasant, a$$h@le?

hahahaha!!!

[jmal]

I thought we rode bikes so that we didn't have to spend time around football and baseball players;-). Seriously though, I think cycling is populated with a lot of former high school and college athletes that now have plenty of disposable income. I have been riding bikes of one kind or another since about 1978 and I'm always amazed that so many people never seem to understand the pleasure of a nice solo ride, or a ride with a couple of close friends. It's always about who's cool at TNW. Cycling has been a central part of my life for longer than many of these folks have been alive, and yet they still try to pull the cool guy/in crowd crap with me. I don't like to spend time around these types. The playground never ends. I guess I'm drifting, but it sounds like the OP should invest in the healthy group and let the other one rot.

[bcroslin]

There is an impression out there that we cyclists are condescending......That means we talk down to people.....

What?! Do you think I don't know what that means?!

:)

[velomonkey]

TNW - is Tuesday Night Worlds??? Right.

Don't listen to me cause I don't even know TNW.

Here is what I do know, there is always some drill sergent in every group ride - I've done them all over the place. This wanna be alpha male always is shouting the same thing - same dude, different place.

Just roll up to him on a hard(er) segment and ask "does this ride ever go fast?"


Works every time. :beer:

[fiataccompli]

having invested time, recruiting club members/racers & most crassly about a grand over the years in various kit with the club name, I feel rather invested. Funny, eh? I thought we were tending towards a critical mass where cooler heads would end up outnumbering & out-funning the old guard, but recent other life events & some folks moving away has been a setback. Though I have not been a 'racer' or particularly into certain aspects of the sport for decades, I have been a serious cyclist, had friends who were (or were in the racer circles), etc. etc. pretty much all my life and this ball-coach mentality (I like that - thanks to whoever said that!) seems more apt for those who may be a little less comfortable themselves in various ways... I mean, it's usually the more experienced riders/racers who are the ones who communicate better...well, maybe not always...but more often it seems like there's a quick trajectory from getting into cycling to becoming the "racer" to then becoming the know-it-all who is constantly jawing about how someone else <doing it wrong> & barking at people or protesting some minor change in route or format on group rides (that would be TNW or other rides, respectively).

[velomonkey]

having invested time, recruiting club members/racers & most crassly about a grand over the years in various kit with the club name, I feel rather invested. Funny, eh?

In all seriousness I feel yea, I did an elite lacrosse team for a bunch of 10 and 11 year old boys. All volunteer and about half the cost of the normal summer programs. Everyone loves it and is very thankful and appreciative EXCEPT the one father I knew from cycling. . . . .

He wants off so junior, at 10, can concentrate on bike racing :help: - dude hounded me to get him on the team, now wants off - we're talking the cross country runner turned CAT IV racer riding a Venge - sorry to generalize but I can't stand the dude, other riders told me he was gonna be trouble . . . should have listened.

[deechee]

I sympathize. I think its really hard to find a good group to ride with. As others have said, I think you need to find a group that's strong but also tries to enjoy itself. There will always be the super serious, and the recreational guy who doesn't train for months and shows up, rides hard like a lunatic for an hour and then blows up spectacularly.

I know that the groups with the best "family" vibe I was in usually had one individual, who wasn't necessarily a leader, but almost like a mascot. They weren't necessarily a coach, or involved with the administration, but someone who would help out the new people, or one of those magnetizing people who could convince the most hard-headed to come out for a drink. Someone who lightened up everyone's mood. Some people don't even try. They're just crazy - like the dietician in our group who suddenly decided to take on a dare to eat 50 timbits. (same as dunkin donuts munchkins).

[ntb1001]

Unfortunately it's very common. When I was introducing my kids to group riding, I didn't get much support from other cyclists. Some were great, but a lot were just plain dicks. I had one guy in Toronto who ran the club from the store where I bought my bike tell me that he believes kids shouldn't ride in a group. Then when I was riding regularly with a different local club with ny boys, there were a couple of very crusty guys that couldn't stop "educating my boys with riding etiquette, even though it wasn't necessary. My older son who was 13 at the time would always get fed up and take off from the group and ride with the fast group.
My boys are now 16 and 15 and they won't ride with a group because of their experiance...they prefer to go alone , or with each other..or sometimes with another couple of kids we know that race. They want nothing to do with club riding or even grand fondo's.. too bad.

[fiataccompli]

I can certainly appreciate solo rides. Come to think of it, I enjoyed group rides more at the point where 65% or more of my rides were solo. In fact, I was odd perhaps in that I usually pushed myself harder and overall had a better ride solo than riding with a group (and I don't mean maniacally riding to the point of utter explosion, I just mean solid, prolonged effort or something like that). Riding fast with a tight group is pretty valuable for racing - especially crit racing - and without the static I enjoy it.

[SeanScott]

I am a jerk in the way that I always try to drop any one or group on a bicycle.

In the same respect I wave to everyone and try to treat people with kindness.

[witcombusa]

If paceline group riding was all cycling offered I'd stop riding.

A couple of friends for a social ride (preferably dirt) a few times a year, sure. But nothing compares to solo rides... hands down. THIS is why I ride. :beer:

[beeatnik]

Here is what I do know, there is always some drill sergent in every group ride - I've done them all over the place. This wanna be alpha male always is shouting the same thing - same dude, different place.



He's the cat who knows 90% of the local racing community and is trying to keep newbies from killing themselves or killing his friends. He's generally a really nice guy once an introduction is made through conventional interpersonal methods.

[El Chaba]

He's the cat who knows 90% of the local racing community and is trying to keep newbies from killing themselves or killing his friends. He's generally a really nice guy once an introduction is made through conventional interpersonal methods.

THIS!!!....and he's a throwback to the days when riders learned to ride their bikes straight before they tried to learn to ride fast...

[SlackMan]

I certainly get that some people need to be yelled at when doing things that are unsafe. That said, I also think that recipients of said yelling react much more negatively when it involves lots of profanity. In my son's Boy Scout troop, we routinely have to yell at the boys when they are doing something unsafe or just not doing what they should, but there is zero profanity.

To the OP, how about calling out the jerks on their language? Adopt a "no profanity rule" and enforce it with comments like "hey, watch your language!" When people have to yell without profanity, the "temperature" of the remarks often goes down too.

[bikinchris]

I would love to start a ride of older (read somewhat slower, but not slow), highly skilled and yet friendly riders who follow traffic law and attempt to be courteous to other road users.
I don't see it happening in this lifetime. Maybe the next, when humans become more evolved.

[bcroslin]

he's the cat who knows 90% of the local racing community and is trying to keep newbies from killing themselves or killing his friends. He's generally a really nice guy once an introduction is made through conventional interpersonal methods.

amen

[fiataccompli]

One thing that I always did as I was getting educated (yes, often by the cursing, yelling) on group etiquette/dynamics/etc. was to at the next safe opportunity to pull beside the yeller ask them to clarify what exactly they meant or what I was doing wrong? That may sound a bit smart-a$$ & it could be presented that way, but basically that was (or is today) my usual approach because it sort of disarms the situation a bit & quite honestly I am interested in knowing what I may have done that could be dangerous/wrong so I can continue to improve (or, perhaps, decide that a certain individual is unreasonable...if that's the case). That tended to work. Oddly enough, I have zero objection to cursing, I just don't see that insulting others is ever productive unless the objective is to start a fight.

[zennmotion]

I would love to start a ride of older (read somewhat slower, but not slow), highly skilled and yet friendly riders who follow traffic law and attempt to be courteous to other road users.
I don't see it happening in this lifetime. Maybe the next, when humans become more evolved.

Or just join with my peeps in VA. I actually have a choice of several clubs/groups that roll like that (or mostly, once in awhile we do a little self-correction to keep it fun and/or safe). Nothing stopping you from starting this, just need a few people and a consistent ride that people know goes in (nearly) all weather, build it and they will come... Recruiting a few badass women riders can help keep the testosterone in check too.

[tv_vt]

I think some of the issue relates to the danger of road cycling, especially at higher speeds and in a pack. There's an element of trust needed to do that safely. And newbies aren't a known quantity when they show up, so old timers may be wary and stand-offish at first. You have to earn other's trust in a pack. If you just show up, don't observe how the group is riding, and don't try to fit in and play the game by the rules, you may get ignored, or yelled at. Some of the yelling is driven by fear of crashes, I'm sure.

Slower group rides are probably more relaxed precisely because they are riding at slower speeds, and there's (theoretically anyway) a larger margin of error.

For me personally, I've gotten pissed on group rides where there's almost no camaraderie shown, no waiting by leaders on obvious stopping points, etc. These are B rides, mind you. Yeah, B rides where some dudes show up with Zipp 404s and seem to have one speed...

Just my 2 cents worth.

[redir]

It sounds to me like this is a case of what my mom used to say, one bad apple spoils the bunch. So no not ALL roadies are like that not even close. But what happens, and I've seen this in many of the circles I've been in from climbing and mountaineering to caving and sailing what happens is when you get some one like that in a club and you are trying to recruit more members that the cool people become witness to this asshole and don't join for obvious reasons while the assholes come to witness his behavior and think to themselves, 'gee I get to be an asshole here this club is great!' So it begins to bread itself into a shiddy club.

[etu]

I would love to start a ride of older (read somewhat slower, but not slow), highly skilled and yet friendly riders who follow traffic law and attempt to be courteous to other road users.
I don't see it happening in this lifetime. Maybe the next, when humans become more evolved.

???
happy to report that these rides happen here and now, probably all over the country. i usually ride alone or with a small group, but i used ride with less race oriented clubs like the marin cyclists club here and the twin city club in minneapolis/st. paul. met some of the nicest people on these rides, many who were strong and skilled. different breed for sure from the casual or organized hammerfests.

[berserk87]

I have given this issue much thought over the years and have a couple of observations.

In many other sports, physical contact is a normal part of play. In cycling, there is no ego leveling action like getting the crap knocked out of you on a hard block, tackle, or foul. Such things can take the edge off of an attitude in a world where acting like a pompous anus can make you a target.

One effect of the draft is that cyclists that are not as strong can stay in a group with much stronger individuals. This can lead some to believe that they are better than they really are, and cause a more bloated ego.

There is more to this issue - just my simple thoughts.

[makoti]

In many other sports, physical contact is a normal part of play. In cycling, there is no ego leveling action like getting the crap knocked out of you on a hard block, tackle, or foul.

If I remember my movies correctly, won't a pump through the spokes do that? ;)

[Drmojo]

He's the cat who knows 90% of the local racing community and is trying to keep newbies from killing themselves or killing his friends. He's generally a really nice guy once an introduction is made through conventional interpersonal methods.

not the Captain Blighs I have met--in 4 different States and 5 or more "fast" group rides

[HenryA]

Its a lack of group intention that causes a good bit of the troubles described here. If you get a group of people with similar riding goals and willingness to subordinate their ego to the group's (and their own) success it might work out. For sure, it'll go lots better than just rolling with a big group having as many goals and attitudes about riding as there are members in the group. That is a recipe for conflict. Many involved will think there's lots of dickheads riding with them and those dickheads think everyone else is a dickhead.

Unless agreed upon in advance why would anyone ever under any circumstances choose to submit to some wanna be alpha male cyclist who tries to put himself in charge of the ride? They're gonna yell at someone they hardly know and tell them how to ride? And expect that to work? Really?

Best thing is to form your own reasonably homogenous group and have fun riding.

[berserk87]

If I remember my movies correctly, won't a pump through the spokes do that? ;)

Probably so.

This is why I indicated "normal" part of the sport. A good knee flick to the side of the bars can do the same thing too, I reckon.

[fiataccompli]

In the situation i described there is a pace and format agreed in advance. So it's not a case of someone wanting to hammer on a social ride or visa versa, I'm talking about more subtle "deviations from the plan" like if a rider accidentally increases pace (or is following another who did, or thought the group was doing so, etc) or gently reduces to allow a group to tighten up when the plan is a tight group but it's become strung out. Guess those situations make it sound like a stretch to justify really barking at another rider. Seems like a healthy and mostly homogenous group can still deal with anomalies (granted, not dangerous ones) without doing things that make them seem like aholes.


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[bironi]

As the oldest and most experienced member of our group has said, "Some get it - some don't, and some never will". The way I learned was to emulate the best rider in the group. That person stands out if you pay attention - Peter Sagan does stand out - No?

[jlwdm]

The biggest problem with most rides is a lack of rules. Is it a no drop ride? Are there regroup points? Is there a clear route? What happens if there is a flat or mechanical? What happens if everyone does not make it through a light? What is the speed of the ride? Is it a ride for fast riders or a ride to help riders get better at riding in a group?

That is why most rides start with multiple groups. If it is the fast group and the goal is to go fast it is a problem if the minor mistakes you mention are made because they are not minor mistakes. Proper group rides at all levels are best when everyone is working together at the desired speed, not uncontrolled races.

Your two groups are not the same, but are not well defined.

Jeff

[Jgrooms]

TNW is not the best place to teach skills, generally. You get the aggro cause its viewed as a 'race' by some. If there is a designated sprint at the end, its a race. Better to work skills on Wed & Th when the ride may be longer & steadier.

Having said that, there is some value in learning under pressure from the jerks. When I started riding I was subjected to the drill sergeant type. I really hated him for a time. Now I miss him. One of the best racers I've known and what I'd give for a group of 6-7, that he trained, rotating like a well oiled machine into a 25 mph midwest crosswind for 4 hrs.

[HenryA]

In the situation i described there is a pace and format agreed in advance. So it's not a case of someone wanting to hammer on a social ride or visa versa, I'm talking about more subtle "deviations from the plan" like if a rider accidentally increases pace (or is following another who did, or thought the group was doing so, etc) or gently reduces to allow a group to tighten up when the plan is a tight group but it's become strung out. Guess those situations make it sound like a stretch to justify really barking at another rider. Seems like a healthy and mostly homogenous group can still deal with anomalies (granted, not dangerous ones) without doing things that make them seem like aholes.


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Consider reconsidering the experiential evidence you present above. What's happenin' and what oughta' happen are not matching up.

[bcroslin]

One thing that I always did as I was getting educated (yes, often by the cursing, yelling) on group etiquette/dynamics/etc. was to at the next safe opportunity to pull beside the yeller ask them to clarify what exactly they meant or what I was doing wrong? That may sound a bit smart-a$$ & it could be presented that way, but basically that was (or is today) my usual approach because it sort of disarms the situation a bit & quite honestly I am interested in knowing what I may have done that could be dangerous/wrong so I can continue to improve (or, perhaps, decide that a certain individual is unreasonable...if that's the case). That tended to work. Oddly enough, I have zero objection to cursing, I just don't see that insulting others is ever productive unless the objective is to start a fight.

I mean no disrespect and I'm asking this question in all seriousness: are you possibly being a little oversensitive? I agree that people cursing others out on the ride is uncalled for but there are times when experienced cyclists riding in a group start to feel things are getting a little out of hand and will shout something that might feel like an order but is actually some direction to try and keep things safe and steady. I can tell you from experience that if I see the person in front of me opening a gap I will tell them they had better keep pedaling and close the gap. Sometimes it might be "hey buddy keep pedaling" and other times it might be "if you let that gap open and I have to close it I'm going to be pissed." Obviously the tone of both statements is very different. :)

[shovelhd]

There was this guy on the club ride today, a fairly new racer, fairly strong. He has a terrible habit. He stares at his power meter like Chris Froome, to the point where he has ridden off the road and almost ran into people. He's a major hazard. I had a little talk with him after the first time he did it. I think I was diplomatic and not arrogant. I termed it as a safety issue with 20+ riders in a paceline. He thanked me for my advice. On the way back he did it again. At that point I made sure that he was always behind me. I can't take those kinds of risks.

[Road Fan]

while I realize, this is a tired concept, a friend and I have had the rather unwelcome opportunity for it to become a discussion topic and I thought i'd try to encapsulate it for a discussion here in an effort to gut check my interpretation. So...

Like many, we ride competitively, with a club, race with a larger group of club members and there are the usual high intensity TNW rides along with other loosely organized club training type rides. The TNW is a fast double rotating paceline (some call echelon?) format & other rides may vary in format. One thing that seems to persist with all of the rides is the existence of certain riders who are oft to yell abrasive corrections or criticisms of other riders. While I completely understand the need to communicate quickly/efficiently when there are issues of safety with a rider (ie, doing stuff that's just dangerous in a group..I get that), I see a lot of this being doled out for what I would see as rather minor issues of annoyance: pulling too hard up a hill, slowing slightly pulling through so as to let a strung out group close gaps, letting a gap open up somewhere, etc. OK, I get that this stuff can be annoying & tiring and when it happens consistently some correction is needed...but is it considered 'normal' etiquette to respond with things like "slow the f__ down", "you GD ____", "close the F'ing gap", etc. (basically, some corrective instruction housed in an angry tone and usually peppered with some sort of condescending sounding personal insult or name)?

Why do I care? Well, the club struggles with membership and participation. In general, there's an underlying reputation for being a bit elitist and perhaps being a bunch of pricks. I'd like to see people get into the sport. A certain population is going to be either the recipient of this anger or witness it & decide to not come back or not do much with the club. Personally, I find it just as unpleasant as a mis-tuned derailleur ticking in a paceline...I can't really grasp the need to communicate with anger if your point is actually to improve the skills/behavior of the riders around you. And, I guess I also land on the thought that are you really that put out by a slight gap? I mean, don't you have to close those a lot when you're racing anyway?...not that you want it, but it's not on par with someone brake-checking you..

As a counter case-in-point, another local club with a similar population of racers/etc. has a regular ride that while it is not a TNW format, it is highly organized. On that ride, the leader is often quick to offer corrections to riders who may be less familiar with the format...so I hear stuff like, "hey, try to hold your speed steady as you pull through, ok?" or "let's all stay tight & to the right through here" or "when you're rotating back, be sure not to cross the center line"...basically a very different tone & I believe one that is more effective.

So, am I being unreasonable to expect people to be a little more pleasant/respectful/etc. communicating? Am I just being reminded of why I purposely stayed clear of organized cycling for years & years when I was younger? What brought this up was a recent outing when it became apparent that a new,younger club member has apparently fully embraced the highly abrasive communication style and a conversation about what kind of handbasket the club may be traveling in.

If you've gotten this far, thanks for your time in indulging this.

The difference between coaching the newbies and berating them! Need more teachers.

[Gummee]

There was this guy on the club ride today, a fairly new racer, fairly strong. He has a terrible habit. He stares at his power meter like Chris Froome, to the point where he has ridden off the road and almost ran into people. He's a major hazard. I had a little talk with him after the first time he did it. I think I was diplomatic and not arrogant. I termed it as a safety issue with 20+ riders in a paceline. He thanked me for my advice. On the way back he did it again. At that point I made sure that he was always behind me. I can't take those kinds of risks.

There was/is a guy like that on the Reston Bike Club rides. Not only does the guy put his head down, he hammers with it down till he sees the wheel in front of him, then stops. Accordion ensues.

I'd had enough one day and snapped at him: the ride's not happening on your stem, keep your head up and pay #$% attention!

Haven't seen him lately, but I'll bet that bad habit's not been broken.

M

[fiataccompli]

THAT is an example where the anger makes sense...I mean, it's a natural reaction to fear and you'd be a fool not to have a healthy fear of being taken out like that. But that's a different deal than a little too slow or fast compared to what you would like/expect/plan/etc.


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