Is this corroded aluminum frame still safe?

[BumbleBeeDave]

Got a good friend in a jam and hoping to get some expert feedback from the collective Paceline Brain!

He bought this 2005 Bianchi Liquigas team frame at a local shop on consignment, and picked it up mid-June. Since then he's ridden it maybe half a dozen times and he loves it. Original Campy Record group and early model Ksyrium wheels. It IS a nice bike--aluminum frame with carbon fork and seat stays. He got the whole thing for a grand. The group and wheels are in great condition (except for the chainrings--see below)

But then he found a few areas with bubbled paint and when I took a look at it, I did not get good feelings. There are several areas . . .


Largest areas is on underside of top tube just in front of the seat tube. Is goes from about half and inch in front of the cable guide to just in front of the weld. This is the area that concerns me, as it is where tubing would normally be thin, and closest to a weld, though it looks like the corrosion hasn't reached the weld yet. In this area I could audibly crunch the paint when I pressed on it for the first time with a finger.

Seat tube bottle cage mount area and just above the FD clamp. This concerns me, too, because the FD clamp continues to put pressure on the tube.

Drain hole in the bottom of the BB. Looks pretty obvious.

There's also a bit around one of the down tube bottle cage bolts.

There's also some corrosion of the chainrings.


I went with him today to see the dealer, and in a stunning surprise, the dealers said everything they sell on consignment is on an "As-Is" basis, though the dealer got real nervous when I asked him "Do you post that for customers to see?" and when my buddy bought this they didn't make him sign anything or show him anything wit this policy. But the dealer was nice and will see what he can do with the original owner and even Bianchi.

BTW, this visit also elicited an admission from the dealer that this had been the original owner's trainer bike for several years, so to me that explains all the corrosion below the saddle. The guy was sitting there for several winters sweating on it and then walking away.

So on to the reality . . . chances are pretty slim that the dealer or the original owner are going to take it back. I told my friend the big unknown here is how extensive the corrosion is under the paint. At the least, those areas are going to need to be stripped, inspected, cleaned up, then repainted.

But in the meantime, what else should he keep in mind? Is there any way to tell if this frame is truly safe to ride?

BBD

[Louis]

For that kind of money I would expect much better condition stuff. It's probably safe to ride for a while, but knowing when it's toast and going to fail is way too difficult. I would not ride it.

Given that it was on consignment that makes it tough for the shop to give him a refund, even if he could apply it to another purchase at the same LBS.

Finally, this is probably painfully clear to him now, but your buddy really should have done a better job of inspecting it himself before he bought it. Some of that looks pretty obvious.

[dustyrider]

I don't know how to spell the word that those pictures make my mouth say, but i believe it is akin to this emoji :eek: .

Not sure I would ever assume that a used bike from a shop came with a warranty. If the bike was one of their demo bikes, yes. And certainly discussed before purchase.

I suppose the brand and the shop could have a strong enough relationship and they'll want to work with him. Especially if he's been supporting said local bike shop. Don't know much about dealings with Bianchi, but a lot of manufactures have crash replacement options to keep the stoke alive.

Again, :eek:

[velotrack]

I'd agree with Louis - better initial inspection could have prevented this. But not on the part of the buyer alone. It's the shop's fault as well for not doing a better job of inspection... they should never have taken this bike in for consignment in the first place. This isn't craigslist - it's a bike shop, and they're responsible for the bikes that are leaving the door.

IMO.

[pbarry]

A buddy called me about a Colnago AL frame he wanted me to look at--much worse shape than this as the cancer had popped the paint in several places. That looks like it could be saved with good prep and paint, but you won't know till it's media blasted.

[BumbleBeeDave]

I'd agree with Louis - better initial inspection could have prevented this. But not on the part of the buyer alone. It's the shop's fault as well for not doing a better job of inspection... they should never have taken this bike in for consignment in the first place. This isn't craigslist - it's a bike shop, and they're responsible for the bikes that are leaving the door.

IMO.

The guy who sold it to him said yes, they did see the bubbling, but determined that it did not affect the integrity of the frame.

But if I ran a store and a guy came in to ask me to put his trainer bitch on consignment, I'd be a lot more careful than this dealer apparently was.

I told my friend this may be a lesson learned in not riding it again, but better a lesson learned that way than learned while doing 40+ down a hill.

BBD

[Louis]

That looks like it could be saved with good prep and paint, but you won't know till it's media blasted.

Perhaps, but IMO the better option is for Dave's buddy to try to get his money back.

[BumbleBeeDave]

He knows he may get nothing back and have to part out the bike. But we don't want to declare it DOA until he can have those spots stripped and inspected.

BBD

[rustychisel]

I've ridden a Trek 2300 in worse condition than that (UK winters and road salt), but given this is a Bianchi it's a question of when it fails, not if. Seen too many of 'em tear or crack.

[CSTRider]

Looks like corrosion happened in places where dissimilar metals came into contact - steel ferrule & aluminum cable stop; steel water bottle screw and aluminum threads; steel cable and aluminum tubing ... add sweat from sitting on trainer and you have the electrolyte needed for a nice galvanic reaction.

[pbarry]

Perhaps, but IMO the better option is for Dave's buddy to try to get his money back.

I was answering the question in the title of the thread.. Of course, a refund would be nice. Just don't ask Mr. Stoler.

[FlashUNC]

Pardon me, I need to go wipe down my Lobster in a sudden fit of OCD cleanliness.

[Louis]

I was answering the question in the title of the thread.. Of course, a refund would be nice. Just don't ask Mr. Stoler.

Refund? Refund? REFUND?

[Peter P.]

I could be wrong, but I thought I read that when aluminum corrodes like what you see on the Bianchi, the layer that comes in contact with your sweat turns into an oxide then it stops going any further.

That may have been true with anodized aluminum only.

Your friend OWNS this bike. The frame flaws were not hidden from him when he bought it; he failed to examine it closely. It was a used bike and he should have checked it out as such.

I see two options: He loves the bike so just ride it as-is, or have it stripped and refinished. Sounds like the price was a bargain so I'd go for the former and chalk it up to experience.

[BumbleBeeDave]

Your friend OWNS this bike. The frame flaws were not hidden from him when he bought it; he failed to examine it closely. It was a used bike and he should have checked it out as such.

He knows this and admits it. The question asked is whether the bike is safe to ride and advice on proceeding further with a physical fix.

BBD

[tuxbailey]

I don't know anything about aluminum but I would hesitate to ride it.

Since the bike has a lot of nice components, why not just source a new frame for a few hundred bucks? I bet he could find something nice from our classified section.

[Avincent52]

There's an implicit warranty when a shop sells a bike whether it's new or on consignment. Especially when we're talking about a $1,000 bike that costs more than many of the new bikes in the shop. And we're talking about a safety issue, not a cosmetic one.

The owner needs to realize that this was his lucky day that this problem wasn't discovered in a 40 mph crash. He could easily be facing a $10 million lawsuit because your friend is dead or permanently disabled instead of negotiating price over a used bike.

If this went to court, any decent lawyer wouldmake mincemeat of the "sold as-is" argument when it comes to the structural integrity of the bike. (If the derailleur wouldn't hold adjustment or the saddle covering starts peeling off that's a different issue, but that frame is rotting and we all know that.)

But it doesn't need to come to that.

If the shop is a Bianchi dealer, they should work to get the manufacturer to replace the frame either for free, or at Bianchi's cost. (i.e. what it costs Bianchi to make it rather than what they sell it to the dealer for.)

If they don't sell Bianchis or that doesn't work, the owner should get your friend a new frame at cost (the shop's cost) or a demo at "cost minus 20 percent" or something.

And then they should swap the components over and give the bike a safety check.

IMHO, it's a win-win-win. The original owner gets to hold onto his money. It doesn't cost the shop owner anything out of pocket. And your friend gets a better bike he can ride with safety and confidence.

[F150]

Looks like corrosion happened in places where dissimilar metals came into contact - steel ferrule & aluminum cable stop; steel water bottle screw and aluminum threads; steel cable and aluminum tubing ... add sweat from sitting on trainer and you have the electrolyte needed for a nice galvanic reaction.

+1, seems the only common thread. But what happened to that chainring?

[oldpotatoe]

The guy who sold it to him said yes, they did see the bubbling, but determined that it did not affect the integrity of the frame.

But if I ran a store and a guy came in to ask me to put his trainer bitch on consignment, I'd be a lot more careful than this dealer apparently was.

I told my friend this may be a lesson learned in not riding it again, but better a lesson learned that way than learned while doing 40+ down a hill.

BBD

WHY I never sold anything on consignment, even tho asked many times and some would have resulted in good $. The shop, whether it was sold 'as-is' or not is liable if the thing broke after sale and the rider was hurt. It 'could' get very expensive for the bike shop..like getting sued and settling for big $ would be cheaper than going to court, type big $.

I would contact an lawyer, maybe have the lawyer give a call to the shop, and try to get his $ back. The frame, IMHO, is not safe to ride.

[David Kirk]

I wouldn't ride it nor would I let a friend/loved one ride it.

dave

[Avincent52]

Old Potatoe is right (as usual.)

There's a big difference between saying "As is"...so we won't fix your rear derailleur if it breaks in a month. (which is perfectly reasonable)

And "As Is"..we sold you this bike for $1,000 but the frame is structurally corroded and could collapse on the first big bump and throw you under a truck.

Yes, your friend should have checked the frame, but the shop had the prior and greater responsibility to have checked the frame and made sure it was safe before they sold it.

Since everyone was lucky that no one got hurt, I would hope that this could be resolved before getting lawyers involved.

It seems to me that your friend is made whole by getting a new or structurally solid used/demo frame of similar or higher value and the shop using the existing components to build the bike. The shop should do everything it can to find him a nice frame that's going to cost him little or nothing out of pocket (or give him the option of upgrading to something *really* nice but paying dealer cost or less.)

PS: You'll note that you've got one of the nation's best frame builders stating unequivocally that he wouldn't ride the bike or let a loved one ride it.

[Hindmost]

But what happened to that chainring?

The early dark-anodized UT chainrings were notorious for the surface coating lifting. Not sure which chainring we are seeing here.