Disc-road test.

[David Kirk]

Interesting video -


dave

http://velonews.competitor.com/2015/07/news/road/video-gcn-tests-whether-disc-brakes-are-ready-for-pro-peloton_378507

[nrs5000]

Hope they degreased after test #1

[fogrider]

Interesting video -


dave

http://velonews.competitor.com/2015/07/news/road/video-gcn-tests-whether-disc-brakes-are-ready-for-pro-peloton_378507

dave, thanks for sharing...I love the sausage into the disc and spokes!!!

[stephenmarklay]

'What happens if we stick it in your spokes' Classic

[unterhausen]

well, your finger...

[David Kirk]

It was no surprise whatsoever that the guy with the disc would catch the rim brake guy on the descent - that was a given. It was also a given that the two guys climbed side by side and that the guy with the rim brakes didn't just rocket up the road - it was hardly a scientific test and tested little to nothing in the end. The sausage test (don't like the sound of that!) was also little surprise. The folks that insist we will find piles of fingers on the road after a pile-up crash should move to ban spokes for safety reasons based on this meat-in-the-spokes test :)

The most interesting thing to me what that he dragged the brakes a full 18K down a very serious hill and nothing bad happened and he had full braking at the bottom. I've done similar tests with cable pulled discs before offering them and even with those I had no issue - yet some have claimed we will all die in a great fireball if we need to use the brakes for more than a few seconds at a time. The stuff has come a very long way.

dave

[oldpotatoe]

It was no surprise whatsoever that the guy with the disc would catch the rim brake guy on the descent - that was a given. It was also a given that the two guys climbed side by side and that the guy with the rim brakes didn't just rocket up the road - it was hardly a scientific test and tested little to nothing in the end. The sausage test (don't like the sound of that!) was also little surprise. The folks that insist we will find piles of fingers on the road after a pile-up crash should move to ban spokes for safety reasons based on this meat-in-the-spokes test :)

The most interesting thing to me what that he dragged the brakes a full 18K down a very serious hill and nothing bad happened and he had full braking at the bottom. I've done similar tests with cable pulled discs before offering them and even with those I had no issue - yet some have claimed we will all die in a great fireball if we need to use the brakes for more than a few seconds at a time. The stuff has come a very long way.

dave

142/12 thruaxles and flat mount calipers...gee how many frames are now obsolete?

[commonguy001]

Those two are quite entertaining
The sausage test was by far the best disc test I've seen. Good stuff!

[bcroslin]

142/12 thruaxles and flat mount calipers...gee how many frames are now obsolete?

but think of all the barely used bikes that will be available for pennies on the dollar because they're not the latest tech. I say bring on the discs so I can score a cheap evo in a year or so!

[David Kirk]

142/12 thruaxles and flat mount calipers...gee how many frames are now obsolete?

I would say few to none actually. When they stop offering stuff to service given bikes then maybe they will be obsolete. But I can go online and in 5 minutes find toe clips with Binda straps or a simplex derailleur and those things haven't been common in 30 years.

I lose zero sleep worrying about this stuff and don't understand why others do....the sky really isn't falling.

dave

[Mark McM]

It was no surprise whatsoever that the guy with the disc would catch the rim brake guy on the descent - that was a given.

Why is that a given? Descending speed is about much more than the type of brakes used. A good descender with lesser brakes will still out-descend a poor descender with better brakes.

Perhaps you forget the first Red Bull Road Rage (a downhill road race) in 2005? US pro and top amateur road racers competed and brought all manner of bikes, including suspension bikes, and many with disc brakes (cable and hydraulic). And yet, the race was won on a standard road bike, with standard tires and standard rim brakes. The difference? It was piloted by Myles Rockwell, former MTB Downhill World Champion. Here, as in most cases, it is the rider that makes a bigger difference than the bike.


The most interesting thing to me what that he dragged the brakes a full 18K down a very serious hill and nothing bad happened and he had full braking at the bottom.

Again, this is hardly a good test. A skinny guy (like the one in the test) puts far less demand on their brakes than a beefy guy, on any road grade. The question isn't whether disc brakes are safe enough for 150 lb. pro riders, its whether they are safe for the entire size range of cyclists, including the bulky 240 lb. riders.

Rim brakes aren't without their heat issues, and many riders have blown tires, melted glue, or suffered brake fade on steep descents. I had an opportunity to ride down a 2400 foot descent with switchbacks and an average grade of 12% (Mt. Ascutney, VT) while it was closed to traffic. I purposely came to an immediate stop at the bottom so that I could feel how hot my rims and brakes were. While they were certainly noticeably warm, they were not nearly hot enough to burn my skin, nor did I notice any brake fade or other brake related issues during the descent. But that may have been because my measly 145 lb. (at the time) was hardly a good test of brake heating. A 200+ rider would surely have had much more brake heating on the same descent.

[JayBay]

For what it's worth, when I first got my Crux with Red22 Hydro brakes I did 3 laps up and down Hurricane Mountain Road in NH (1.8 miles long, average 11% or so with lots of sections over 15% grade). I'm about 180 lbs and consider myself a fast and aggressive descender. By the third time down I got the brakes hot enough to give the rotors (160 front / 140 rear) a slight blue tinge, and they were stinking something fierce. But they still worked great and never boiled the fluid.

I'm a firm believer in discs for CX and road. At this point I don't think I'd buy another new bike without them.

[ergott]

For what it's worth, when I first got my Crux with Red22 Hydro brakes I did 3 laps up and down Hurricane Mountain Road in NH (1.8 miles long, average 11% or so with lots of sections over 15% grade). I'm about 180 lbs and consider myself a fast and aggressive descender. By the third time down I got the brakes hot enough to give the rotors (160 front / 140 rear) a slight blue tinge, and they were stinking something fierce. But they still worked great and never boiled the fluid.

I'm a firm believer in discs for CX and road. At this point I don't think I'd buy another new bike without them.

What pad compound?

[David Kirk]

Hey -

You are of course 100% right - a good descender will drop a poor one regardless of the brakes used. In the very unscientific test they videoed they say that the two riders are normally very equally matched when on rim brakes but when one uses discs they are faster down the hill. This is what was of little surprise to me.

On steep twisty downhills, where braking is important, I've found that I am considerably quicker with discs than rim brakes due to their superior modulation and consistency. One can really let it run and brake as late and deep into a corner at the tires will allow and it is faster than any rim brake I've used.....alloy or carbon rims.

--------------------

And yes.......once again you re right - a skinny guy will not put the load on the brakes that a heavy guy will. Absolutely. But this video wasn't about big guys on disc brakes it was about pro road racers on disc brakes and pros are light. Even with that said dragging the brakes for 18k is a long time and one would think that even thought the guy is light that after dragging the brakes for 18k that if there was going to be an issue it would have popped up here.

Obviously this video was as much tongue-in-cheek as it was a serious study of the viability of disc brakes in the pro peloton. But it was also anecdotally enlightening and interesting.

I have owned road bikes with discs (don't have one at the moment and for my normally riding I wouldn't be gaining much on the road - my cross bike has discs) and as someone who has designed and tested bikes now for more than 25 years I can say that in certain circumstances they are better than any rim brake. Does everyone need them? No. Will rim brakes go away because discs take some part of the market? - No.

It feels like so many are so worried that the sky is falling and I for one just don't get it. Don't worry - be happy. It's the golden age of cool bike stuff right now.

dave





Why is that a given? Descending speed is about much more than the type of brakes used. A good descender with lesser brakes will still out-descend a poor descender with better brakes.

Perhaps you forget the first Red Bull Road Rage (a downhill road race) in 2005? US pro and top amateur road racers competed and brought all manner of bikes, including suspension bikes, and many with disc brakes (cable and hydraulic). And yet, the race was won on a standard road bike, with standard tires and standard rim brakes. The difference? It was piloted by Myles Rockwell, former MTB Downhill World Champion. Here, as in most cases, it is the rider that makes a bigger difference than the bike.




Again, this is hardly a good test. A skinny guy (like the one in the test) puts far less demand on their brakes than a beefy guy, on any road grade. The question isn't whether disc brakes are safe enough for 150 lb. pro riders, its whether they are safe for the entire size range of cyclists, including the bulky 240 lb. riders.

Rim brakes aren't without their heat issues, and many riders have blown tires, melted glue, or suffered brake fade on steep descents. I had an opportunity to ride down a 2400 foot descent with switchbacks and an average grade of 12% (Mt. Ascutney, VT) while it was closed to traffic. I purposely came to an immediate stop at the bottom so that I could feel how hot my rims and brakes were. While they were certainly noticeably warm, they were not nearly hot enough to burn my skin, nor did I notice any brake fade or other brake related issues during the descent. But that may have been because my measly 145 lb. (at the time) was hardly a good test of brake heating. A 200+ rider would surely have had much more brake heating on the same descent.

[ergott]

as someone who has designed and tested bikes now for more than 25 years I can say that in certain circumstances they are better than any rim brake. Does everyone need them? No. Will rim brakes go away because discs take some part of the market? - No.

It feels like so many are so worried that the sky is falling and I for one just don't get it. Don't worry - be happy. It's the golden age of cool bike stuff right now.

dave

I agree with you whole heartedly. We fear change.

[Mark McM]

For what it's worth, when I first got my Crux with Red22 Hydro brakes I did 3 laps up and down Hurricane Mountain Road in NH (1.8 miles long, average 11% or so with lots of sections over 15% grade). I'm about 180 lbs and consider myself a fast and aggressive descender. By the third time down I got the brakes hot enough to give the rotors (160 front / 140 rear) a slight blue tinge, and they were stinking something fierce. But they still worked great and never boiled the fluid.

That doesn't sound like much of a ringing endorsement. I've been down Hurricane Mt. Road several times (both sides, and including having to react to slower moving auto traffic), and I never had any color changes or funny smells from my standard rim brakes.

[bfd]

Hey -

It feels like so many are so worried that the sky is falling and I for one just don't get it.

I think the reason why so many may be worried is because in the next couple of years, the big mfrs -Specialized, Trek and C'dale will only come out with disc brake bikes, all of them - road, mtb, cross, who knows maybe even track bikes! :rolleyes::mad::butt::crap:

So even if a rim brake, i.e., Paul Mini-moto, may be "as good," there is this perception that is now being build that disc brakes are superior and will take over the market. Good or bad, they're here and don't seem to be going anywhere.

Good Luck!

[cloudguy]

It feels like so many are so worried that the sky is falling and I for one just don't get it. Don't worry - be happy. It's the golden age of cool bike stuff right now.
dave

I asked this question on one of the the previous disc brake threads and never got an answer: How much more difficult is it to install and maintain road disc brakes in comparison to rim brakes? The change that I fear is the increased hassle and time, but maybe that is misplaced?

[JayBay]

Whatever the "standard" compound is that they came with. I'm not sure, really. These were the original ones, before the big recall fiasco.

What pad compound?

[JayBay]

Oh, I've been down it plenty of times on rim brakes too, plenty fast without any issues. But I've never been down it that quickly and confidently than on my CX bike with discs.

That doesn't sound like much of a ringing endorsement. I've been down Hurricane Mt. Road several times (both sides, and including having to react to slower moving auto traffic), and I never had any color changes or funny smells from my standard rim brakes.

[oldpotatoe]

I asked this question on one of the the previous disc brake threads and never got an answer: How much more difficult is it to install and maintain road disc brakes in comparison to rim brakes? The change that I fear is the increased hassle and time, but maybe that is misplaced?

They are more expensive, more complicated and heavier. Not 'show stoppers' but they are not the simplicity, etc of a standard road caliper.

[David Kirk]

I think the reason why so many may be worried is because in the next couple of years, the big mfrs -Specialized, Trek and C'dale will only come out with disc brake bikes, all of them - road, mtb, cross, who knows maybe even track bikes! :rolleyes::mad::butt::crap:

So even if a rim brake, i.e., Paul Mini-moto, may be "as good," there is this perception that is now being build that disc brakes are superior and will take over the market. Good or bad, they're here and don't seem to be going anywhere.

Good Luck!

I hear you and at the same time don't wholly agree. Yes the Big 3 will all be showing disc brake bikes....or more disc brake bikes I should say....and that in time this might limit choices. That said the biz plan for all big companies right now is to diversify and try to grab the niches. This means that there will be townie bikes without brakes, gravels bikes with disc brakes, road race bikes with both rim and discs, pro road bikes with direct mount rim calipers or discs......etc.

The whole idea is to fill as many niches of the market as they can and that means no pulling away from existing markets while moving into new ones. The companies understand that they can pick and choose from the parts makers catalog and come up with all kinds of combos that will help a few more units go out the door and that is the name of the game.

I like it. We have more choice of good stuff than we have had in my more than 30 years of serious riding. Want good canti brakes? Want good road rim brakes? Want disc brakes? Want direct mount road brakes?.....etc........you can have them all. 20 years ago we had campy rim brakes that did little to nothing to stop you and canti brakes where one used a pipe wrench to bend the caliper and stud at the same time to get the toe to be good enough that the noise would drive you bonkers. This is no longer the case. Stuff is good and it is diverse - not bad I say.

dave

[Mark McM]

I think the reason why so many may be worried is because in the next couple of years, the big mfrs -Specialized, Trek and C'dale will only come out with disc brake bikes, all of them - road, mtb, cross, who knows maybe even track bikes! :rolleyes::mad::butt::crap:

Depending on where and how you ride your MTB, you might prefer to use linear pull brakes (i.e. V-brakes). But it will be very difficult to find a suspension fork with canti- mounts these days ...

Soon, the bike manufacturers will have decide what rear axle size to use on their road bikes, either the 130mm QR axle rim brake standard, or whatever disc brake axle system becomes "standard". I seriously doubt that they would offer both options - especially for their carbon fiber frames, which would require a different set of molds for each frame size. Which rear axle system do you think they'll go with?

Yes, rim brakes will be available for many years to come. But those in the market for new bikes may have no choice but to switch to disc brakes, if that's the direction the bike industry moves.

For me personally, I have an additional reason for not wanting to move to road disc brakes. My hips and knees prefer pedaling with a narrow pedal stance, so I seek out cranks with low Q and U factors. But in addition to the stance width limitations of pedals/cranks/BBs, there is also the limit of the chainstay width. My heels already sometimes rub the chainstays with 130mm rear axles - how much more will they rub if the rear axle is increased to 142mm? (And that's assuming that chainlines remain the same with the wider axles - the manufacturers may want to take advantage of that extra space by adding more sprockets, moving the chainline out further, increasing crank Q factors.)

[ergott]

We still have at least a few years until the entire peleton of pro racers are on disc bikes. Until that time all the big manufacturers will still be making rim brake bikes.

Variety is the spice of life. I have both and love them equally [/sap]

[ergott]

I seriously doubt that they would offer both options - especially for their carbon fiber frames, which would require a different set of molds for each frame size.

The Specialized Tarmac is already one big bike model offered in both disc and rim and not with the same axle standard for each. Trek Domane is also disc and rim.

I'll go out on a limb and say front 12mm thru and rear 142X12mm will survive once the dust settles. I say that even though I have QR front and rear (135mm). There was no fork and dynamo hub combo I could put together at the time of my build and that was a deal breaker for me. As Kirk said, I'm not worried that I might not find parts for my bike anytime soon.

[ergott]

But those in the market for new bikes may have no choice but to switch to disc brakes, if that's the direction the bike industry moves.

UCI isn't even in test mode yet for peleton use. Until they are using disc 100% in pro cycling rim brakes will still be offered to us. That buys us at least another 3-5 years.

[oldpotatoe]

UCI isn't even in test mode yet for peleton use. Until they are using disc 100% in pro cycling rim brakes will still be offered to us. That buys us at least another 3-5 years.

PelOton-please and thank you. Disc brakes on enthusiast's road bikes will be in force probably for the 2017 season, for good or ill. 12mm thru front and 142/12 thru rear with flat mount calipers, 140mm rotors cuz shimano says so.

[hida yanra]

[QUOTE=David Kirk;1792875 Don't worry - be happy. It's the golden age of cool bike stuff right now.[/QUOTE]


:hello: well said.

[Vinci]

That doesn't sound like much of a ringing endorsement. I've been down Hurricane Mt. Road several times (both sides, and including having to react to slower moving auto traffic), and I never had any color changes or funny smells from my standard rim brakes.
Not really apples-to-apples. Disc brakes will always run hotter for the same amount of braking. Much smaller surface area and diameter means higher heat and different compounds required. I am not sure how it could be mocked up, but I don't think rim pad compounds would survive even flat road riding inside a disc caliper.

[benb]

Next time I buy a road bike it'll have discs...

I've gone up and down all the mountain roads mentioned in this thread and then some more. Some I've rode my MTB up and down in addition to my road bike.

I'm bigger than the guy in the article (175-185lbs depending on the year). I've had fade and had to manage it on every single one of those roads with rim brakes (mostly shimano setups with kool stop or shimano pads). Never a touch of an issue with the hydraulic discs on my MTB.

One time I stupidly went up Cadillac mountain in Acadia with my MTB and the front brake pad was just about toast.. I ended up having only the rear brake for the descent and I still had more power and fade resistance than any rim brake I've used. (Although I wouldn't count Cadillac mountain as a descent that was terribly tough.)

The Pack Monadnock summit road in southern NH is one that is particularly hairy with road brakes. It's bumpy & has several extremely steep sections.. you have to be so very very careful with rim brakes there.. you're front brake starts to fade incredibly quickly and you're super paranoid about locking the rear on a bump.. meanwhile the top section you'll launch 45mph into the woods if you don't keep your speed under check since you're in the drops to get maximum braking power, shifting your weight forward off the rear wheel. You end up needing to scoot your weight back like you're MTBing but that kind of sucks on road bikes.

My current bike has TRP mini-v's, they are the strongest rim brakes I've had that weren't full on MTB V-brakes.. I'd be curious how they do on those roads.. but then the bike is so much heavier than the bikes I rode those descents on it might not matter. I certainly experienced fade on my MTB with Avid single digit V's, Shimano XT "parallel push" V's, etc.. just like the road bikes.

Disc brakes get hot but the pads are designed to keep working when hot.. that seems to be the difference.

[Schmed]

I asked this question on one of the the previous disc brake threads and never got an answer: How much more difficult is it to install and maintain road disc brakes in comparison to rim brakes? The change that I fear is the increased hassle and time, but maybe that is misplaced?

I have a dissenting opinion about the "hassle" of disc brakes.

I think they are EASIER to maintain than rim brakes. I'm not a bike mechanic, and always was messing with toe-in to get rim brakes to brake well yet not squeak.

For hydraulic discs, you mount them to the frame, squeeze the brake, tighten up the mounting bolts, and go ride 2000+ miles without touching them.

Bleeding them can be an art, but Hope and Shimano bleed procedures are very easy, to me, and heck - I've never bled my Hope brakes in 4000 miles of mountain biking. They are firm as they were on day 1. Changing pads takes 3 minutes with zero adjustment afterwards. No stinking cables to lube or fray.

So, my answer is "less hassle". Flame away!

[mod6]

Totally agree, also makes wheel swaps a painless process. With rim brakes I always need to make adjustment when swapping wheels.

I have a dissenting opinion about the "hassle" of disc brakes.

I think they are EASIER to maintain than rim brakes. I'm not a bike mechanic, and always was messing with toe-in to get rim brakes to brake well yet not squeak.

For hydraulic discs, you mount them to the frame, squeeze the brake, tighten up the mounting bolts, and go ride 2000+ miles without touching them.

Bleeding them can be an art, but Hope and Shimano bleed procedures are very easy, to me, and heck - I've never bled my Hope brakes in 4000 miles of mountain biking. They are firm as they were on day 1. Changing pads takes 3 minutes with zero adjustment afterwards. No stinking cables to lube or fray.

So, my answer is "less hassle". Flame away!

[rinconryder]

The need for disc brakes really depends on where you live I think. If you live in a relatively flatter area like most of the Midwest, florida or texas, I don't think you are going to really need them.

On the other hand I have been riding some steep climbs in California (Girbraltar in SB if you are familiar) and I am getting very tired of having to squeeze the brakes so hard my knuckles are bending backwards. Granted I like to carry speed and brake late, but I can definitely see the benefits of disc brakes from a comfort and safety point of view for steep descents. I just trust my disc brakes so much more on mountain bikes and they are way easier (read one finger braking) to use.

The future: Disc brakes are the future. I am wondering whether to wait it out a year or two more. The only reason I wouldn't is that this is not even close to "new" technology. They have been on MTB for years. So I think the brakes themselves are pretty advanced. The only question is the application of said disc brake to road bikes. We are still trying to settle on something.

My next bike will be something similar to the new Madone but with disc brakes. Bikes have gotten close to as light as they are going to be unless some new space age material comes out. Aero to all types of bikes (endurance too) is the next step so that you can have a bike with low drag but a moderate level of comfort. And you will slow that puppy down with disc brakes -- or opposing pulsating magnets.

[fogrider]

Do I want a bike with disc brakes, sure! but I'm in no rush. seems like things are changing pretty fast and there are lots of variables: cable. hydro, self centering, pad compounds, axle size, rotor size and shape. Things will sort itself out in the next few years like everything else. I've been using rim brakes for decades and I've gone down mt tam in the rain, as said, descending is more about skill than brakes...not that my skill is as good as it was. I don't "need" disc brakes nor do I want them. I want to ride my bike and am trying to ride faster...and even if I can trust my brakes more, I'm not going to push it on the descents.

[FastforaSlowGuy]

For those predicting catastrophic results if discs show up in racing, be aware that it's already legal in (most) USA Cycling races. So I guess we are all dead.

http://www.usacycling.org/technical-director-update-1502.htm

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[oldpotatoe]

Totally agree, also makes wheel swaps a painless process. With rim brakes I always need to make adjustment when swapping wheels.

Small point..even tho rotor placement on hubs is kinda 'standard', if the hubs in the wheel swap aren't the same manufacturer, they may be 'plug and play', but they may not, in terms of rotor and caliper placement. Kinda like a 11s wheel for another 11s wheel that's a different brand.