thoughts about spoke count

[bicycletricycle]

Went on a longish ride today, broke a spoke 15 miles in, took the spoke out, trued the wheel up and rode around for another 50. Wheels are 32 hole WI h3, revolutions, TB14s. If I had some of those new fangled low spoke wheels I'd have been screwed. I think I'll continue to ride around on lots o spoke wheels for a long time.

I think the spoke broke because I flat spotted the rim a while ago and took some tension out around that area to keep the wheel in service for a bit longer, that was 2 years ago and 3 or 4 thousand miles. Guess it's time for a new rim and spokes. Rim is getting a little thin anyways.

Thinking I might switch to the new pacenti sl23s

[false_Aest]

My last set of hoops were 28H 7700s to Kinlins. They lasted 20,000 mi before I got hit by a car.

I built them, trued them 3x and that was it.


My new set are 28H 9000s to Archetypes. They will last the same.

[bigbill]

I've got a set of SL23 wheels with 32 Record hubs but I also have a set of Zondas that I've been riding since late 2008. They are 18/21 and are as true as the day I took them out of the box. I'll probably curse myself here, but I never expected them to last this long.

[beeatnik]

My last set of hoops were 28H 7700s to Kinlins. They lasted 20,000 mi before I got hit by a car.

I built them, trued them 3x and that was it.


My new set are 28H 9000s to Archetypes. They will last the same.

Kinlins are dope!

I'm going to ride 36H Velocity Deep Vs on the single speed beast at tomorrow morning's Montrose Ride. The plan is to draft national champions and jump off curbz. 50 milez at 25 mph. Sin miedo!

https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7467/16305368882_c2c2aa9988_b.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8579/16648636671_510c2ae687_b.jpg

Montrose is dope. Weight weeniez welcomed
https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7750/18280054295_103cbdc2f9_b.jpg

Post ride rewards at the Buccaneer!
https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8262/15178194564_accbefee25_c.jpg

They let me bring my bikas (caad10) in
https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8603/15708746917_dc34cdde65_c.jpg

[fogrider]

Went on a longish ride today, broke a spoke 15 miles in, took the spoke out, trued the wheel up and rode around for another 50. Wheels are 32 hole WI h3, revolutions, TB14s. If I had some of those new fangled low spoke wheels I'd have been screwed. I think I'll continue to ride around on lots o spoke wheels for a long time.

I think the spoke broke because I flat spotted the rim a while ago and took some tension out around that area to keep the wheel in service for a bit longer, that was 2 years ago and 3 or 4 thousand miles. Guess it's time for a new rim and spokes. Rim is getting a little thin anyways.

Thinking I might switch to the new pacenti sl23s

I just broke a spoke on 24 spoke rear wheel...it was on my training bike and my ride was pretty much done. I was able to adjust the other spokes to ride back but it was by no means true. I agree that low spoke count is the most reliable, but I've had good luck with my carbon rims and 24 spokes in the rear and 20 in front.

[Louis]

I'm going to ride 36H Velocity Deep Vs on the single speed beast at tomorrow morning's Montrose Ride. The plan is to draft national champions and jump off curbz. 50 milez at 25 mph. Sin miedo!

Dude! Do those socks glow in the dark?

[beeatnik]

Dude! Do those socks glow in the dark?

Ha! My neighbor asked the same question. I think they back up POC's claims that fluo yellow isn't the brightest color (I've got the same socks in fluo yellow and blue). There's a cat out here who bought an orange bike after he picked up a pair of the socks...

[CheshireCat]

my thoughts: unless your spouse is really cool with the SAG call fairly frequently, it's best to ride both clinchers and high spoke count.

The worst feeling in the world, to me, is seeing a dirt path I hadn't noticed before and not being able to take it because my wheels will get knocked out of round.

The road less traveled, and so on.

[MattTuck]

I'm currently riding 32 hole, 3 cross wheels, HED belgiums to WI hubs. THey're good.

That said, I have a pair of bontrager race lite wheels from 2002 that have been on my Lemond Zurich since then. 20 front, 24 rear. 10K miles, at least. I crashed and destroyed the rear wheel, but the front is still in service.

And I'm not a small guy... 200 pound average over the use of those wheels, sometimes heavier (235), sometimes lighter (180s). I have no complaints about those wheels. I rode plenty of dirt and crappy roads with them, on 23 mm tires no less.

And, I recently was coming out of a building and saw the same model zurich and wheels on a bike rack. Seems they were getting plenty of use on our crap roads, as the guy had put kenda 30mm cx tires on them.

Not sure if those are typical results, and I'm not planning to find out. But I do think some of the lower spoke count wheels can be durable... the problem is, at the outset, there's probably no way to tell which ones.

[Ralph]

The rims on my Campagnolo Zonda's, 16/21 spokes, look so sturdy, I bet for my weight (155) they would work fine with about 2/3 of the spokes currently on there. I have some Record hubs with light 32 spoke rims (IRD 390 gram Cadence), and they need all the spokes they have. I would rather try to ride home on a broken spoke on the Zondas than the 32 spoke IRD Cadence rims.

[oldpotatoe]

I get a kick out of some who add 150 grams to a rim, then subtract 8 spokes(50 grams) and 'see, light, low spoke count wheel'.

For just riding around, hard to beat a conventional wheel, built well.

[beeatnik]

The rims on my Campagnolo Zonda's, 16/21 spokes, look so sturdy, I bet for my weight (155) they would work fine with about 2/3 of the spokes currently on there. I have some Record hubs with light 32 spoke rims (IRD 390 gram Cadence), and they need all the spokes they have. I would rather try to ride home on a broken spoke on the Zondas than the 32 spoke IRD Cadence rims.

Factory low spoke (system) vs low spoke hand built/piecemeal. Two different animals.

[bicycletricycle]

The heavier rim for less spokes trade off is pretty silly.

I don't think zonda would do very well with a broken spoke.

Once I broke a spoke on some neutrons, they were not rideable

[fuzzalow]

I have yet to ride on any factory-built wheel - every single wheel in a lifetime of cycling has been on wheels of my own build. This does not include the wheels that came on my stingray banana seat bicycle as a boy, the wheels that came on my first 10-speed Raleigh and the 16" wheels on my Brompton.

And I have never broken a spoke except for the one time an idiot rider that cut me off on a small group ride so I ran into him.

To me, any spoke laced wheel is the same no matter hand built or low spoke count factory prebuilt because they all are essentially the same: structured devices that all operate as tensioned devices for how they maintain structural integrity and conduct load-bearing capacity. All have a loose fitting at the junctures of the spoke at the hub and rim so the entire wheel can only function under tension as a tensioned structural device. Because it's tensioned in connection with the parts of its neighbor, there must be an approximate equilibrium to load capacity for any of the components used in its construction. Which fits in perfectly as correct with the common saying about the tradeoff in "add 150 grams to the rim, then subtract 8 spokes (50 grams)" - the component parts to build the wheel all have to survive together so they all have to exhibit similar capacity. There is no such thing as a free lunch.

All the fuss about factory built modern low spoke count wheels is IMO, marketing. But that doesn't make them inherently better or worse, they are still tensioned wheels and they function under the same physical laws as any other similar structure. From wire wheels on a Ferrari Daytona to a suspension bridge. All the same physics. So I don't dislike or have any predisposition against factory-built wheels. I simply prefer to build my own.

The only game changer in wheels has been the full carbonfiber autoclaved wheel that creates a sold structural product - as in the ADA and Lightweight carbon wheel products. Spokes locked in structurally at the hub and the rim that allow the entire wheel to distribute loading forces either under tension, as all loose spoke laced wheels already do, AND under compression, as found in cast alloy automotive wheels. Doing a structure as a monolithic device allows freedom to redistribute weight to be less constrained to the capacities of other component parts of the wheel because there are other potential pathways to redirect the loads imposed to the wheel.

I am not an engineer but I understand the fundamental structural characteristics of simple devices. Or at least I think I do which is in effect, the same thing. And a bicycle wheel is a simple device. So don't get caught up in the mumbo jumbo of bicycle wheel mysticism and magic. There is no such thing.

Ride the wheels you enjoy. There is no better or worse, only round. All done in service of the ride.

[Mark McM]

Factory low spoke (system) vs low spoke hand built/piecemeal. Two different animals.

How so?

[tiretrax]

I have yet to ride on any factory-built wheel - every single wheel in a lifetime of cycling has been on wheels of my own build. This does not include the wheels that came on my stingray banana seat bicycle as a boy, the wheels that came on my first 10-speed Raleigh and the 16" wheels on my Brompton.

And I have never broken a spoke except for the one time an idiot rider that cut me off on a small group ride so I ran into him.

To me, any spoke laced wheel is the same no matter hand built or low spoke count factory prebuilt because they all are essentially the same: structured devices that all operate as tensioned devices for how they maintain structural integrity and conduct load-bearing capacity. All have a loose fitting at the junctures of the spoke at the hub and rim so the entire wheel can only function under tension as a tensioned structural device. Because it's tensioned in connection with the parts of its neighbor, there must be an approximate equilibrium to load capacity for any of the components used in its construction. Which fits in perfectly as correct with the common saying about the tradeoff in "add 150 grams to the rim, then subtract 8 spokes (50 grams)" - the component parts to build the wheel all have to survive together so they all have to exhibit similar capacity. There is no such thing as a free lunch.

All the fuss about factory built modern low spoke count wheels is IMO, marketing. But that doesn't make them inherently better or worse, they are still tensioned wheels and they function under the same physical laws as any other similar structure. From wire wheels on a Ferrari Daytona to a suspension bridge. All the same physics. So I don't dislike or have any predisposition against factory-built wheels. I simply prefer to build my own.

The only game changer in wheels has been the full carbonfiber autoclaved wheel that creates a sold structural product - as in the ADA and Lightweight carbon wheel products. Spokes locked in structurally at the hub and the rim that allow the entire wheel to distribute loading forces either under tension, as all loose spoke laced wheels already do, AND under compression, as found in cast alloy automotive wheels. Doing a structure as a monolithic device allows freedom to redistribute weight to be less constrained to the capacities of other component parts of the wheel because there are other potential pathways to redirect the loads imposed to the wheel.

I am not an engineer but I understand the fundamental structural characteristics of simple devices. Or at least I think I do which is in effect, the same thing. And a bicycle wheel is a simple device. So don't get caught up in the mumbo jumbo of bicycle wheel mysticism and magic. There is no such thing.

Ride the wheels you enjoy. There is no better or worse, only round. All done in service of the ride.

You are probably correct, but would a 32 spike rim perform better with a broken spoke than a 24 spoke rim, especially for a 90-100kg rider?

[Mark McM]

The heavier rim for less spokes trade off is pretty silly.

That's the not the trade-off that's being made. The deeper rim is more aerodynamic, so it is more efficient (despite the extra weight). As a side benefit, since the deeper rim is stiffer and stronger, it will have the same durability with fewer spokes as the shallower rim with more spokes.



I don't think zonda would do very well with a broken spoke.

Once I broke a spoke on some neutrons, they were not rideable

This just means you were ill prepared to use your equipment. Just like a flat tire should not make a bike unrideable if the rider has a spare tube and pump, a broken spoke should not make a bike unrideable if the rider has a spare spoke. Here's a photo of a Neutron wheel with a broken spoke made rideable with a FiberFix replacement spoke:

http://bikehugger.com/images/blogs/FiberFix.jpg

http://www.adventurecycling.org/default/assets/Image/Slatwall/product/default/cache/BT-820_300w_300h_sb.jpg

[tiretrax]

http://bikehugger.com/images/blogs/FiberFix.jpg

http://www.adventurecycling.org/default/assets/Image/Slatwall/product/default/cache/BT-820_300w_300h_sb.jpg

Do you have to use a fence stretcher to tension that?

[Mark McM]

Do you have to use a fence stretcher to tension that?

The cam is only used for the initial length adjustment. The spoke is tensioned by turning the nipple on the threads, just like any other threaded spoke.

[fuzzalow]

You are probably correct, but would a 32 spike rim perform better with a broken spoke than a 24 spoke rim, especially for a 90-100kg rider?

Most constraints in engineering are viewed in the context of tradeoffs and compromises. So what I think underlies your question is the desire for some degree of fault tolerance as specifically applicable to avoiding a fatal collapse in roundness & true resultant from a broken spoke.

For me, the correct answer is build a wheel to the quality of tension level and distribution of pressure where there is simply no breakage of spokes in normal use. I am flummoxed by folks that have problems breaking spokes because I've never had it happen as a normal course of use and even moderate abuse.

In answer to your question I'd design a wheel for greatest fault tolerance by not getting too cute with it. Difficult to design for fault tolerance because it is pure guesswork as to quantifying the variables that you want to model for as inputs for the severity of impact. Sure you can overbuild for fault tolerance. Which from a design and functional utility perspective is the same thing as raising the threshold level of nominal use the wheel is designed for.

These are all things you can speak to a wheel builder about. They should know what and why they do what they do in designing and building a wheel to your requirements and desires. If they can't talk intelligently about what they do without resorting to mumbo jumbo, chances are they are unqualified. That lack of knowledge and skill brings nothing to the table to solve your problem. There is nothing mysterious about bicycle wheels. Yes, I am aware that most wheel builders may not speak in techno-nerd language as I do here. But they can surely tell you why. And if they can't explain why it is because IMO they don't know.

A performance wheel trades off things for image, perception and greater performance. That kind of wheel is equivalent to the Jim Clark/Colin Chapman era of Lotus race cars - designed to go fast and fragile as a consequence. To ask much more of it is unrealistic. Even still, for sport riding, a good wheel should last. Just don't crash it or use it on a loaded touring bike.